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I am pretty sure Maradona is GOAT and not Messi, he shaped how the game is played, with hands and stuff.
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"for a better terran"? What does that even mean lol
"rise like a phoenix" is a much better sign
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On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident.
Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well.
I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO.
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I call it, Cure never lost against this build
wrong channel 
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On September 16 2017 18:19 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well. I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO.
Blizzcon does have more prestige, because bigger $$$ prizepool, there's more PR and hype, and the winner gets the title of World Champion.
But a Starleague takes more skill to win.
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On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy.
I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias.
I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him.
I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias.
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On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. Show nested quote +I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias.
That is basically my argument as well, we should only look at tournament results to define GOAT.
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On September 16 2017 20:03 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 18:19 ejozl wrote:On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well. I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO. Blizzcon does have more prestige, because bigger $$$ prizepool, there's more PR and hype, and the winner gets the title of World Champion. But a Starleague takes more skill to win.
I don't disagree, but you yourself said that to be GOAT you have to be the most accomplished. I'm saying that a Blizzcon win is more accomplishing than a GSL title.
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Austria24420 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. Show nested quote +I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias.
I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up.
It's in the same vein as that 'Liquid bias' thing in PRs. People are fans of players and don't like other players. Everyone who disagrees must be biased, because clearly your own criteria are the only objective ones.
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On September 16 2017 20:17 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 18:19 ejozl wrote:On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well. I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO. Blizzcon does have more prestige, because bigger $$$ prizepool, there's more PR and hype, and the winner gets the title of World Champion. But a Starleague takes more skill to win. I don't disagree, but you yourself said that to be GOAT you have to be the most accomplished. I'm saying that a Blizzcon win is more accomplishing than a GSL title.
Why?
If GOAT is a measurement of skill, as it should be, then we measure accomplishments because there is no way to directly and objectively measure skill. Accomplishments are (theoretically at least) the product of skill, so the biggest accomplishments are those which require the highest skill to achieve.
i.e, GSL
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On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up.
Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias.
Okay it might not necessarily be anti-Inno bias but certainly pro-Mvp bias.
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United States1893 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. Show nested quote +I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias.
How does not liking a player, but recognizing his achievements constitute bias? Do I have be one of the fan boys constantly lauding their favorite players to be considered objective? I'm off the opinion that all the blatant Inno fan boys are far more biased than I.
And a final note since you talk about everyone copying Inno and his impact over the last four years. Until the second half of this year Maru was more consistent than Inno. From 2013-2017 he was a top 2 Terran at every point of the game. Inno was strictly worse than him for almost all of 2014, the first half of 2015 and all of 2016 while Maru was 2nd to Inno in late 2014 and 2015 when Inno was the best. Maru was far more important to Terrans during that period as he showed it was possible to beat Protoss and exhibited a style all his own that was impossible to replicate.
People don't even copy Inno either. TY, aLive, Maru, GuMiho all have their own identities as players with unique playstyles. The concept of mongo macro Terrans is completely outdated and died with Flash. Even Inno isn't one of them anymore. No one else plays him. When soO was practicing for the finals he said Inno was a terrible practice partners because Inno just did the Inno build every game. It's his alone so I don't know where you're getting any of this. It's really just blatant Inno bias.
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Austria24420 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias.
Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it.
So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking.
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On September 16 2017 20:19 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:17 ejozl wrote:On September 16 2017 20:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 18:19 ejozl wrote:On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well. I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO. Blizzcon does have more prestige, because bigger $$$ prizepool, there's more PR and hype, and the winner gets the title of World Champion. But a Starleague takes more skill to win. I don't disagree, but you yourself said that to be GOAT you have to be the most accomplished. I'm saying that a Blizzcon win is more accomplishing than a GSL title. Why? If GOAT is a measurement of skill, as it should be, then we measure accomplishments because there is no way to directly and objectively measure skill. Accomplishments are (theoretically at least) the product of skill, so the biggest accomplishments are those which require the highest skill to achieve. i.e, GSL
I think Blizzcon has a bigger entry and I think it's more top heavy as well. It's very easy to imagine, lets say, TY vs Stats finals. This could easily happen in both GSL and Blizzcon, but I think winning that match in Blizzcon holds more value, since there's the prestige of Blizzcon and everything that comes with it. They both will try and peak their skill around Blizzcon because it's the one they want the most, they will both have the biggest jitters here and mind games will have a bigger impact since both will be so focused on winning. If it was only about the player pool then an olimoleague or Ballistix Brawl could hold more value than a GSL and I think that's the wrong way to look at it.
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On September 16 2017 20:28 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias. Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking.
Imo in fact every GSL title is worth the same. For DHs one has to consider the playing field aka how many top 10-15 koreans play in the tournament. This ofc can't be done 100% objectively but when one looks at the results the participating players had in that period you get a general idea where that tournament ranks in comparison.
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Austria24420 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:28 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias. Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking. Imo in fact every GSL title is worth the same. For DHs one has to consider the playing field aka how many top 10-15 koreans play in the tournament. This ofc can't be done 100% objectively but when one looks at the results the participating players had in that period you get a general idea where that tournament ranks in comparison.
Yet somehow that doesn't apply to GSL? Why not?
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On September 16 2017 20:34 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 20:28 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias. Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking. Imo in fact every GSL title is worth the same. For DHs one has to consider the playing field aka how many top 10-15 koreans play in the tournament. This ofc can't be done 100% objectively but when one looks at the results the participating players had in that period you get a general idea where that tournament ranks in comparison. Yet somehow that doesn't apply to GSL? Why not?
because in GSL every single top player is participating every time.
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Austria24420 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:35 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 20:34 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:31 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 20:28 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote:On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote:On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias. Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking. Imo in fact every GSL title is worth the same. For DHs one has to consider the playing field aka how many top 10-15 koreans play in the tournament. This ofc can't be done 100% objectively but when one looks at the results the participating players had in that period you get a general idea where that tournament ranks in comparison. Yet somehow that doesn't apply to GSL? Why not? because in GSL every single top player is participating every time.
That doesn't matter one bit if you never face them.
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EPT
