EPTGo sOs!
sOs vs INnoVation: Code S Grand Finals Preview - Page 3
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
Go sOs! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:20 Olli wrote: Mvp was very consistent. And come on, there are players who never dropped off as hard as INnoVation did. Many of them in fact. You can't do nothing for a whole year and be called consistent. And that's not counting his mediocre time on Acer. As for external factors, there's no world in which a professional SC2 player neglecting his practice to play another game is an external factor or can be treated as such. Of course it impacts his ability to play properly, make decisions, pick proper builds and prepare for matches. Now an external factor is something you can't control that impacts your ability to play. Such as an injury, especially the kind Mvp had. The thing people don't understand is that GOAT is the greatest of all time, not the raw best ever. And in that context, Mvp's injury is absolutely relevant because it made what he did a million times more impressive. Especially when you consider that all it supposedly took for INnoVation to drop off for a whole year was League of Legends. Mvp was consistent for not even a year, that's it. It's absurd to compare that to other players who had way longer careers. It's not hist fault ofc but that doesn't matter here. I agree that Inno playing lol is not a real external factor. And yes he had drop offs, but at the end of the day he showed the ability to always come back with enough dedication. I actually think "consistency" is useless as a term if we wanna be that strict simply because i don't think any top player ever could be labeled as consistent. I heavily disagree with the argument that the injury should have any positive effect on that judgement. It simply happened and he had to deal with it and then even basically retire because of it. That's it. You might admire that he was able to do well despite of it, but we don't judge other players by that standard either. What about players losing family/friends and thus havign emotional pain? Nobody would care. There are a million different "external factors" which could play a role, it's irrelevant. What matters are the results. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
By the way, Mvp was consistent for 2 years, unless you think a GSL win and another finals in 2012 is somehow not consistent. And 2 years is essentially most of his career. He was already playing with injury then. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote: I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning. By the way, Mvp was consistent for 2 years, unless you think a GSL win and another finals in 2012 is somehow not consistent. If a single GSL win is all that it takes to be consistent for a year, Inno was consistent through 2014. Also, I think you are using a different definition of GOAT than I am. I view it quite simply as the most-accomplished player (and ipso facto most skilled), period. Purely their skill in SC2 and their achievements thereof. Otherwise imo the definition of GOAT becomes too subjective, based on how "impressive" a particular player was at a particular time, to a particular fan. Impossible to ever get a clear answer that way, everyone just picks their favorite player. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
And mean "he could have won..." = speculation We can do the same thing saying that without his LoL year INno could have won another GSL  | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
There are arguments to be made for all the above criteria, all of them certainly make sense. But you can't use blink and LoL as excuses for INnoVation dropping off and then claim you're purely looking at objective facts. And you definitely can't argue that your criteria are more objective than mine for whatever reason. You picked them and neglected others. This is always a subjective argument. You saying the most accomplished player is the best player ever is literally you making that judgment, and I heavily disagree with that. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote: I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning. By the way, Mvp was consistent for 2 years, unless you think a GSL win and another finals in 2012 is somehow not consistent. And 2 years is essentially most of his career. He was already playing with injury then. The context is given by the level of play in korea. If you wanna add more and more context it becomes wishy washy because it's incredibly subjective. The example i used illustrates that pretty well, what about a pro player who hypthetically loses his family in a terrible car accident or something like that. Would it be more impressive if he went and won starleagues? What about another pro player who has some sort of learning disability. There are so many things which could be brought into this and i frankly think it's absurd because you never know all the details about all these players. Like a lot of players have problems with their hands/fingers for example. Yes it was worse for Mvp but how do you evaluate the differences? Extremely subjective and wishy washy. Well it really depends how strict you wanna be tbh. Like i can easily make a case that after his first GSL win in January his results were fairly mediocre until his next GSL win (even though he won that WC thing). The next three code S seasons he was top32, code a and top32. I am sure other players would have been criticized for that. Stuchiu even claims mvp dominated the scene for two years. It's ridiculous. Mvp had still good results in 2012 (the ones you mentioned) but most of the year was mediocre. If that is enough to be consistent (after having a way better 2011) then i am not sure if we should use the term at all  | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:55 Olli wrote: Almost as if it were an entirely subjective argument to begin with. Because the criteria you use already make it so. Yours are different to mine. You could value achievements compared to how long a player's active career lasted and Mvp would outshine everyone easily. You could measure length of sustained peak performance and overall dominance. You could take competition into account. You've earlier taken the blink dominance in 2014 into account to explain why INnoVation's poor early-mid 2014 shouldn't be read too much into. There are arguments to be made for all the above criteria, all of them certainly make sense. But you can't use blink and LoL as excuses for INnoVation dropping off and then claim you're purely looking at objective facts. And you definitely can't argue that your criteria are more objective than mine for whatever reason. You picked them and neglected others. Well, every argument is inherently subjective, of course. At the end of the day it's a lowest-common-denominator sort of thing, and if one guy has two shelves of big trophies compared to another guy's one shelf of big trophies, I think most people will tend to favor Guy #1 as GOAT. Like I said in the other thread, GOAT status will be incontestable once a player has won: 1. Most tournaments 2. Most Starleagues Quantity + quality. Intuitively, that's a conceptualization of GOAT that everyone can grasp easily, and arguing against such a GOAT would require considerably more effort, more questionable assumptions/interpretations/etc than agreeing with it. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote: Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote: I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote: I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning. aka "I don't want to look at actual results because they don't match with my narratives." In my opinion Has is the greatest opinion of all time. Yes, results don't represent that but they mean nothing anyway. I saw him beating Jaedong with cannons which was so cool he's definitely the greatest. That's how you sound right now. edit: at least argue for Life as the GOAT. Inno beats Mvp in every single category + Show Spoiler + except bias I guess | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote: And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean player tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
*i hate inno he is a boring faceless korean, no emotion, no care. i root for him to lose, and hope SOS stomps him, like soulkeys awesome reverse sweep, but face it that ain't gonna happen | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean players tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote: And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. TY said the same about winning GSL compared to IEM Katowice, soO said the same about winning a lesser tournament (Kespa Cup). It's simply an established truth that Starleagues > weekenders. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote: The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. Seem like most ot them prefer to go to Blizzcon instead of GSL final. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:37 Alarak89 wrote: 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? I don't quite understand. You asked why starleagues have more weight and i answered it. I didn't say other tournaments have no weight which makes both your points basically invalid. 1. Well it is, other tournaments obviously "count" as well, just less than starleagues. 2. Not necessarily no, if other players have enough good results to outweigh the starleague titles. Obviously not only the title counts for Jjakji, etc, all his results do. It's not about "jjakji has ONE starleague therefore he is higher on the ranking than taeja who has none" Noone reasonable would say that. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote: And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote: If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Winning an offline tournament without preparation is also a skill, unfortunately Starleague won't show us that skill, but a GOAT should have both. | ||
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