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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
It would be nice if staff started handing out mod actions for those kinds of posts, since it's not only racist but literally demonstrably false.
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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
Shameless self-promotion, smh 
To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of?
The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought.
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19533 Posts
On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
I don't think anyone really thinks that koreans have no personality. But the term "faceless korean" got to be a thing because there is truth to it. Koreans always had the same interviews, koreans in general didn't do a lot to be entertaining outside the game (ofc one could make the same case for foreigners but we had players like Idra, HuK, Stephano, etc back then).
Add to that the general language barrier. It's definitely not "the biggest crock of bullshit" especially when you consider that we are extremely hardcore on TL for following the korean scene. We go the extra mile to enjoy that content even sometimes watching streams without any english commentary if necessary. The average fan doesn't do that, he wants to watch a few games here and there and the more accessible the content the better.
So it's really just natural that in general people want to see players who speak their language (or english because most people understand that), it's no surprise that players like Polt, MC and Jaedong got to be fan favorites. Polt obviously with good english, the other two just a few words/sentences here and there. That stuff matters, just because it doesn't matter (as much) to the hardcore crowd doesn't mean that there is no truth at all to "faceless korean".
One can certainly say that the term itself is poorly worded, but there is a reason it exists.
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On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule.
You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place.
You'll be reminded at Blizzcon.
Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?!
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On September 12 2017 08:07 PuddleZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule. You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place. You'll be reminded at Blizzcon. Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?!
His Terran was decent for a 14 year old kid, if I recall.
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United States1960 Posts
On September 12 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo Shameless self-promotion, smh To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of? The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought.
There are a lot of reasons why it's difficult to arrange these things. These include availability/interest of both writer and player, having a translator (whose duties extend far beyond just translating an interview), being there in person to do interviews etc. We were able to overcome them with soO because he and I had been in contact since I modded for him on twitch and I was already planning a trip to Korea. He speaks English at an above average level and was very interested in doing something of this sort as a means of communicating with/giving back to his foreign fans for their support. Unfortunately I don't see us being able to duplicate that sort of effort in the near future, but it would be irresponsible to completely write it off.
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On September 12 2017 08:07 PuddleZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule. You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place. You'll be reminded at Blizzcon. Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?!
Pretty good then considering he was WCS AM playoffs player as Terran while like 14 and only playing part time.
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On September 12 2017 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Whether it has succeeded to increase viewer numbers is very arguable.
I'd say it definitely increased live crowd viewership. I remember many events with like 20 people in crowd total
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On September 12 2017 08:16 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo Shameless self-promotion, smh To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of? The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought. There are a lot of reasons why it's difficult to arrange these things. These include availability/interest of both writer and player, having a translator (whose duties extend far beyond just translating an interview), being there in person to do interviews etc. We were able to overcome them with soO because he and I had been in contact since I modded for him on twitch and I was already planning a trip to Korea. He speaks English at an above average level and was very interested in doing something of this sort as a means of communicating with/giving back to his foreign fans for their support. Unfortunately I don't see us being able to duplicate that sort of effort in the near future, but it would be irresponsible to completely write it off.
That was why I mentioned Splyce, I figured team management might be able to help and Solar of course speaks excellent English. Alternatively, if soO enjoyed the experience, maybe he could recommend it to his friends. Obviously location is an issue but Blizzcon for instance will get some of the progamers into the US. Wasn't Wax involved with the WCS Signature Series last year? That might be an opportunity for him to sit down for a bit longer with some progamers. Just speculating/dreaming, probably just wishful thinking on my part.
Of course, I understand if the players simply aren't interested or if circumstances just can't permit.
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Neeb says he is not gifted and hard practice allows him to win, but when i see his games, DAMN i shout that kid is touched by the SC2 gods...I mean everytime he plays the knife edge of harass/defend/expand perfectly!! His macro is ahead of his micro, but his micro is insane also! Forcefields, disruptor shots, blink, shades, pnix play...
he could go all the way...Best foreigner ever??? YES he is.
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Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed.
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On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed.
1) This stands if it was the same game, LotV in its current state is twice as hard as WoL or HotS ever was...and that goes for all races...
2) Neeb won a serious comp in Korea (this counts for 5 major wins at least!)
Therefore Neeb is the best foreigner ever...
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Neeb is the first sc2 player that's impressed me in at least one year, absolute joy to watch, his pvz is masterclass.
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On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed.
Just because someone is not the best doesn't mean they don't deserve a second thought, losing at Blizzcon is not reason for someone to be embarrassed.
To those calling WCS foreign welfare, it's rude regardless of how you justify it because it implies that it doesn't require any work to achieve.
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On September 12 2017 13:10 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed. Just because someone is not the best doesn't mean they don't deserve a second thought, losing at Blizzcon is not reason for someone to be embarrassed. To those calling WCS foreign welfare, it's rude regardless of how you justify it because it implies that it doesn't require any work to achieve.
"Welfare" does not undermine the work people do. People who receive government welfare aren't exactly "moochers" who just sit at home and refuse to work, despite what some people may want you to believe. Same deal with WCS. There should be no question that the competition is a lot easier when you restrict some of the objectively best players from attending. Winning is made easier -- but that doesn't mean it requires no work. This is a great achievement by Neeb -- job made easier by the absence of top Koreans, but nonetheless, impressive achievement.
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hmm not sure why its my twitch account on here but w.e anyways maybes its cause i havent followed sc2 in like 6months but these names dont seem to impressive i mean there are a couple but is it just me or have the competition gotten weaker in this game. I mean gratz to neeb but yikes this games gone down hill.
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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
As I said there are exceptions, but sadly we don't get big well written like this with most Koreans and they're not that easy to find for casual viewers
(oh and without being racist: it is harder for everyone from any ethnicity to distinguish between people from different ethnicities if they didn't spend a lot of time with a group of people in that ethnicity. Caucasians have it difficult to distinguish between Asians and Asians have it difficult to distinguish between Caucasians.(maybe that's where the faceless Korean comes from I don't know.))
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On September 12 2017 06:08 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:08 RedAlice wrote:On September 12 2017 04:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance. But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it. I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close. So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people. Then we have some serious disputes on what kind of countries do count as third world. U really want to put the bar down to countries like Uganda? You can say Cyan currently has no team or sponsor so he should be counted as amateur instead of pro player. Couldn't argue with that  The problem is, the argument that Koreans are receiving "welfare" is just madness, and somebody even dare taking the expense of living in South Korea as a barrier? This is just crazy. I looked up the people who forfeited because of visa issues, and those are the countries I found. It's possible I missed one or two, but let's go through them. China - Definitely not a third-world country...certain parts are poor, but overall, I think it is that bad. Philippines - It's not a wealthy country, but it is a developing country, and it contributed one person's visa issues. Korea - Not a third-world country at all, and violet did get his visa issues sorted later on. Kazakhstan - A developing country, it isn't the wealthiest country by any means, but it is developing quickly. I wouldn't really consider this a third-world country. So would you consider these countries to be third-world? And even if all except China are third-world countries, that makes it less than 5 people in two years who have forfeit their places because of visa issues. I really don't think that living in poorer countries is really the issue.
How many pro players are there worldwide makes you think that 5 players being locked for no reason is a small deal? With one Ro8 player in Copa Intercontinental last year being locked the entire year.
What would you think if Scarlett is unable to compete the foreign scene a whole year? Ro16 player for the entire 17.
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On September 12 2017 10:33 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Neeb says he is not gifted and hard practice allows him to win, but when i see his games, DAMN i shout that kid is touched by the SC2 gods...I mean everytime he plays the knife edge of harass/defend/expand perfectly!! His macro is ahead of his micro, but his micro is insane also! Forcefields, disruptor shots, blink, shades, pnix play...
he could go all the way...Best foreigner ever??? YES he is.
Neeb said during the tournament that he is "somewhat naturally talented I guess".
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EPT
