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4 Posts
With the top eight players of the 2017 WCS Circuit all but decided heading into Montreal, the question on everyone’s mind was if players like  Neeb or  Nerchio would continue to hoard points or if a fan favorite like Has or Scarlett could pull an upset and steal a last minute spot at BlizzCon.
In the first group stage, things went about as expected. Players like TLO and PtitDrogo advanced with little trouble, while the rest of the big names avoided embarrassment.
Surprises began to crop up in the second group phase as some favorites fell early. NoRegreT was bumped by Lambo in the final match of his group, while  MajOr suffered the same fate against Zanster. ZhuGeLiang also stumbled on the final hurdle after losing 2-1 to the Polish Terran, Ziggy.
The field was narrowed even further in the always ruthless group stage 3. 32 players entered, but only 16 earned spots in the playoffs. Local boys Semper, Jig and Boice were early casualties, while uThermal was also a casualty. Serral, Snute and Neeb all topped their groups, with Scarlett and Has among those who sneaked by in second place.
With the brackets drawn, Neeb and SouL met to kick off the Ro16. The American Protoss won 3-0, while his North American counterpart Scarlett had more trouble with Harstem. She managed to win, 3-2, however, as did TRUE who defeated DnS 3-0. Nerchio set up a ZvZ quarterfinal by taking care of Cham 3-1. Serral reached the quarterfinals with a clean sweep of MaNa, while Elazer did the same against MaSa. Snute won 3-1 against Has’ endearingly cancerous skytoss, becoming the sixth Zerg to make the quarterfinals. Last up was Kelazhur and ShoWTimE, with the Brazilian getting the better of the German, 3-2. Given no time to rest, the final eight returned to the stage for the quarterfinals. Neeb eliminated Scarlett 3-1, with TRUE advancing by an identical score over Nerchio. On the bottom half of the bracket, Elazer eased past Serral 3-1 in a battle of European wunderkinds, while Snute took care of business against Kelazhur to finalize the Ro4.
With the final day of the 2017 WCS Circuit having finally arrived, Neeb and TRUE squared off in the first semifinal. Employing supposedly outdated builds like phoenix/adept and a cannon rush on Mech Depot, Neeb utterly dominated TRUE in an easy 3-0.
Elazer and Snute took a full five games to decide a winner, with everything coming down to the final game on Catallena. Snute lost his hatchery to Elazer’s aggression, but emerged from the fight with a much greater roach count. Elazer soon left the game, sending the Team Liquid Zerg to the finals.
That set up a meeting between two fan favorites and storied players.
Game one swung back and forth, but Neeb's oracles and zealots eventually came out on top. Snute bored into Neeb's main with hydralisks, but he had lost more than 48 workers back at home, putting him virtually all in. Having lost his army outside Neeb's fifth, Snute conceded game 1.
In the next game, Snute was forced into roaches by Neeb's archons drops, a move that put him at a disadvantage going into the midgame. Unable to build a proper hydra/ling/bane army, Snute lost 12 workers at home to zealots before running into a psionic storm/immortal buzzsaw.
Neeb again went for archon drops on Abyssal Reef, but this time his dark templars killed Snute’s natural before fusing into archons. There was no coming back from that position for Snute, who left the game after a failed attack with hydralisks on Neeb’s building fourth.
With the tournament on the line, Neeb's dark templars weren't nearly as effective in game four, but he still navigated his way to three bases ahead on supply. Snute attacked, but his banelings were caught while morphing, and his hydralisks were cleaned up soon after. All Neeb had to do was walk across the map to claim the WCS Montreal championship.
With three WCS titles this year, Neeb has cemented his place as the unanimous best WCS player of 2017. This is perhaps the best year a foreigner has ever had in StarCraft 2, and Neeb should be considered a contender as the first seed in WCS come BlizzCon. We know from his KeSPA Cup title in 2016 that he can beat anyone on the planet, and he has once again proven that everyone in StarCraft should fear him.
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Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb.
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On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb.
Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it?
If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit.
I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
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On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
Yeah I'm sure players like Innovation/Stats/Dark would be glad to grab not only Korean but also foreign money.
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He trampled on all opponents. Well done. Best protoss.
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Competition that ends up with only zergs and few toss are so boring ....
Pointless tournament
User was warned for this post
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So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time.
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On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time.
WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from.
Don't act like they are the same thing.
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On September 11 2017 17:51 7milesJourney wrote:
SoOnute
LOL :D
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clips are loading even if i didn't click to play. I don't like it.
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On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time.
Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality.
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On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time.
Or maybe the other players need to step their game up. This is in no way meant as an insult either, they are all very talented as well.
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On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing.
They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^
No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule.
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On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time.
And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run.
If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious
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Neeb so gosu, looking forward to seeing him at blizzcon
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Switzerland112 Posts
I have the feeling that for the first time there is a little chance that a foreigner can go far at the blizzcon and even win it. We will see !
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The only way we can have a competitive WCS circuit is either region locking the players that go korea to practise or let the koreans back again to these events. 
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On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies.
On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare.
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On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time.
Wait for the changes after blizzcon..
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On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare.
Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare?
No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know.
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On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know.
Come on. Dont argue in bad faith. Noone in their right mind can argue that banning the best players in the world from entering a tournament does not make winning said tournament less impressive than if the playing field were more competitive. Which makes WCS Welfare an appropriate term, albeit frowned upon by some people who like to pretend Koreans dont exist.
That said, personally I enjoyed the games and im looking forward to see how well Neeb will fare at Blizzcon.
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On September 11 2017 19:59 314159271828 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. Come on. Dont argue in bad faith. Noone in their right mind can argue that banning the best players in the world from entering a tournament does not make winning said tournament less impressive than if the playing field were more competitive. Which makes WCS Welfare an appropriate term, albeit frowned upon by some people who like to pretend Koreans dont exist. That said, personally I enjoyed the games and im looking forward to see how well Neeb will fare at Blizzcon.
Not arguing in bad faith. From my perspective you are the ones angling things in bad faith.
No one is arguing that that it doesn't make the wins less impressive, thats not what the Word welfare means though. Objectively using logic the term is simply wrong, IUnless you are very biased its obvious that the term is both malicious and wrong.
You use which ever terms and slangs you want but don't even try to argue that its also correct. Its like Calling someone a ***** and being both malicous and wrong at the same time, the person is not that and the Word is takes out of its context and used in a bad way.
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welfare circuit series. i support regionlocking neeb now there is no difference between him and koreans other than skin color.
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This was a sad final. Don't get me wrong, Neeb is great and obviousely is the best foreigner atm, but 4-0? Please. It wasn't even exciting apart from the first game when Snute managed to snuck those lings in Neebs main.
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On September 11 2017 20:39 QzYSc2 wrote:
welfare circuit series. i support regionlocking neeb now there is no difference between him and koreans other than skin color.
Most of the Koreans (beside Dark) have skin color no less white than Neeb, what are you taking about ? I would call it ethnicity rather than skin color.
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it was a figure of speech. anyways my point still stands. they are too good? ban them like the rest of the koreans.
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On September 11 2017 20:26 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:59 314159271828 wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. Come on. Dont argue in bad faith. Noone in their right mind can argue that banning the best players in the world from entering a tournament does not make winning said tournament less impressive than if the playing field were more competitive. Which makes WCS Welfare an appropriate term, albeit frowned upon by some people who like to pretend Koreans dont exist. That said, personally I enjoyed the games and im looking forward to see how well Neeb will fare at Blizzcon. Not arguing in bad faith. From my perspective you are the ones angling things in bad faith. No one is arguing that that it doesn't make the wins less impressive, thats not what the Word welfare means though. Objectively using logic the term is simply wrong, IUnless you are very biased its obvious that the term is both malicious and wrong. You use which ever terms and slangs you want but don't even try to argue that its also correct. Its like Calling someone a ***** and being both malicous and wrong at the same time, the person is not that and the Word is takes out of its context and used in a bad way.
Isn't the point of the current system banning Koreans from entering certain tournaments to give hand-outs to people who are deemed unable to motivate themselves if they knew they were going to play the best players?
In what world is that objectively not a system of welfare?
You can like the current system or not, but arguing against calling it welfare seems disingenous at worst and ignorant at best.
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Why do Koreans get their own server/offline tournaments with blizzard money while the rest of the world gets lumped into one circuit. To be totally fair, we should remove GSL and SSL, and integrate the Koreans into WCS by having them take 1/3 of the 16 online qualifier spots in their own region locked online qualifier and the offline circuits will rotate between America, Europe, and Asia/Korea where 16/32 spots are up for grabs with no region lock. Or we can have global qualifiers with zero region lock but you have to get rid of GSL and SSL to be fair.
Of course, Koreans or anyone else are free to fork up their own money to run their own league with whatever eligibility they want.
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this guy is the single reason why blizzard doesnt nerft zerg or buff protoss
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On September 11 2017 22:09 argonautdice wrote:
Why do Koreans get their own server/offline tournaments with blizzard money while the rest of the world gets lumped into one circuit. To be totally fair, we should remove GSL and SSL, and integrate the Koreans into WCS by having them take 1/3 of the 16 online qualifier spots in their own region locked online qualifier and the offline circuits will rotate between America, Europe, and Asia/Korea where 16/32 spots are up for grabs with no region lock. Or we can have global qualifiers with zero region lock but you have to get rid of GSL and SSL to be fair.
Of course, Koreans or anyone else are free to fork up their own money to run their own league with whatever eligibility they want.
you are talking like there are companies like AfreecaTV, Hot6, JinAir outside of Korea. The Korean host the tournaments themselves, they invest in these tournaments and wonderfully they open them for everyone around the world.
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On September 11 2017 21:49 314159271828 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 20:26 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:59 314159271828 wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. Come on. Dont argue in bad faith. Noone in their right mind can argue that banning the best players in the world from entering a tournament does not make winning said tournament less impressive than if the playing field were more competitive. Which makes WCS Welfare an appropriate term, albeit frowned upon by some people who like to pretend Koreans dont exist. That said, personally I enjoyed the games and im looking forward to see how well Neeb will fare at Blizzcon. Not arguing in bad faith. From my perspective you are the ones angling things in bad faith. No one is arguing that that it doesn't make the wins less impressive, thats not what the Word welfare means though. Objectively using logic the term is simply wrong, IUnless you are very biased its obvious that the term is both malicious and wrong. You use which ever terms and slangs you want but don't even try to argue that its also correct. Its like Calling someone a ***** and being both malicous and wrong at the same time, the person is not that and the Word is takes out of its context and used in a bad way. Isn't the point of the current system banning Koreans from entering certain tournaments to give hand-outs to people who are deemed unable to motivate themselves if they knew they were going to play the best players? In what world is that objectively not a system of welfare? You can like the current system or not, but arguing against calling it welfare seems disingenous at worst and ignorant at best.
If your subjective guess was true I would agree with you, Source?
I would leave it at that but instead of having you scamper around looking for some source I can tell you straight up that nowhere has Blizz stated that the purpose of region locking is giving money to people that can't motivate themselves. No matter what text you somehow interpreted that way you must have missed the point. The interest of Blizz as a Company would never be to give handouts. That I have to explain that you shows your actual understanding of the world, no matter what fancy quote you use to be passive agressive.
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On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know.
I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them."
Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament.
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Well played Neeb, he was not perfect but he was damn good.
Feel for snute but i think there was abit of a skill gap.
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On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament.
Except tournaments in which participation are limited by rankings and thus skill levels are the norm in just about any sport.
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On September 11 2017 23:01 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament. Except tournaments in which participation are limited by rankings and thus skill levels are the norm in just about any sport.
Yeah but WCS is not explicitly a "Master League or below, no GM" tournament circuit, or "< 6000 MMR only" or whatever metric you want to use.
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On September 11 2017 23:01 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament. Except tournaments in which participation are limited by rankings and thus skill levels are the norm in just about any sport.
Name one? There are divisions in sports, but in almost all of them (NHL excluded), lower division teams are always working to advance to the next division until they reach the highest division, where the big money is at.
I would be fine with a system like that for WCS. As long as everyone is allowed to participate in the tournament as a whole, and where the premier tournament is the best of the best.
Oh and please name one tournament that excludes people from a single country, but not from anywhere else.
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On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
Non koreans are welcome to play in the GSL. Scarlett, majOr, elazer etc all do
WCS Circuit is "welfare" because the players that win, only win becuase better players aren't allowed to enter. You put all top 8 WCS players into GSL and most of them drop out in the ro32
And listen I have nothing against foreigners getting their own tournaments that they can actually compete in. But don't deny it's welfare when it clearly is. Foreigners get their own tournaments and then have global events they can enter like IEM katowice, shangai, GSL, WeSG. Except they get trashed in those events just like they always have. The fact that they have their own tournaments that korean are banned from means they are already better of than they used to be
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On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament.
I agree with you, this region lock is stupid and I don't like it. The rule is indeed used differently than in most other sports however there are a lot of "similar" yet not identical rules of nationality. Lots of tournaments are layered around where you live, american ones, european ones and in each individual country there are Leagues for players of the same nationality. The rules are as I said used differently and the example in SC2 is worse that is true.
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ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have  next to every name.
On topic, congrats to Neeb. A hell of a showcase. That finals was so completely one-sided, just a PvZ clinic. He looked flawless. Me, my buddies, and those sitting around us at the venue were all just laughing and in awe as to how he was playing and his dominance over the foreign scene. 3 WCS titles is freaking incredible, and I'm extremely excited to see this form go into Blizzcon, given he has more offline experience and seems really confident.
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On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name.
Nice logical extreme buddy.
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Maybe you should region lock INnoVation out of GSL after his super tournament run too.
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On September 11 2017 23:32 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name. Nice logical extreme buddy.
By the extreme nature of this thread and the hostility towards the WCS Circuit, its not that far off.
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Situation is similar in table tennis with the Chinese. Therefore they limited olympic and world championship participants/country. Obviously it affects all the countries, so its technicly "fair" but, it was implemented to exclude second line chinese players who still could be the rest of the world.
The organizers want global diversity not dominance.
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On September 11 2017 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament. I agree with you, this region lock is stupid and I don't like it. The rule is indeed used differently than in most other sports however there are a lot of "similar" yet not identical rules of nationality. Lots of tournaments are layered around where you live, american ones, european ones and in each individual country there are Leagues for players of the same nationality. The rules are as I said used differently and the example in SC2 is worse that is true.
Which is fine, as long as the same rule applies to every country. Having US-only tournaments or Swedish-only tournaments is perfectly fine and only normal. You wouldn't see swedish teams in the german Bundesliga. But if you saw french, italian, spanish and polish teams in the british Premier League with only german teams being banned, that would have been an issue to the world. When that rule only applies to a single country because its inhabitants are too good at what they do, then there's a problem.
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I think both extremes are so off though. Ask yourself why koreans are usually better, it's not only because of them being more dedicated. BW built an esports infrastructure in that country and everyone who came after made use of that. That's good for korea but it obviously gives the players a huge advantage.
At the same time blizzard forced korea to switch to sc2 basically, a game most of these players didn't even choose to play initially.
Foreigners switched to sc2 because globally it was a real chance for them. If now countless of koreans simply come over and win tournament after tournament it's obviously hard to havea foreign scene. Some of you say "well koreans are more skilled so they deserve it". Sure but this kinda drops all of the context though. People saying koreans are banned because they are koreans (racist!!11) miss the point. People saying why do koreans deserve GSL/SSL/whatever miss the point as well.
I don't think the current situation is bad, we have tournaments for people who didn't have the chance to profit off the korean infratsructure and we have a decent tournament scene for all the korean players who had to switch to sc2 despite the game not being successful in korea.
Obviously on whatever side you are you wanna max out the opportunities of it. Sure i get that but what exactly is so bad about the current situation? Both sides can be more or less happy with it tbh.
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Is Neeb the foreign GOAT?
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On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time.
Wahhhhh. How about everyone else gets better and actually challenges him?
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On September 12 2017 00:01 Bagration wrote:
Is Neeb the foreign GOAT?
Id say Neeb is the foreigner GOAT in the WCS era, Stephano is the foreigner GOAT pre-WCS.
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On September 11 2017 23:41 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 23:32 207aicila wrote:On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name. Nice logical extreme buddy. By the extreme nature of this thread and the hostility towards the WCS Circuit, its not that far off.
There has still yet to be a single, sound argument against Koreans being allowed to play in international tournaments. Only "muh faceless Koreans" and other disgusting, bordering on racist bullshit from people who don't actually care about the game but only about the drama and ""storylines"".
And when I say sound argument, I mean something that does not spit in the face of meritocracy and competition on a fundamental level.
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On September 12 2017 00:06 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 23:41 vult wrote:On September 11 2017 23:32 207aicila wrote:On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name. Nice logical extreme buddy. By the extreme nature of this thread and the hostility towards the WCS Circuit, its not that far off. There has still yet to be a single, sound argument against Koreans being allowed to play in international tournaments. Only "muh faceless Koreans" and other disgusting, bordering on racist bullshit from people who don't actually care about the game but only about the drama and ""storylines"". And when I say sound argument, I mean something that does not spit in the face of meritocracy and competition on a fundamental level.
Koreans are allowed to play if they reside in a region supported by the WCS Circuit. Koreans, for the most part, don't want to leave Korea or their current training environment to take part in the circuit. By doing so, they are eligible to take part in GSL/SSL/other Korean leagues, as well as online leagues like everyone else. The situation is a double edged-sword however you look at it, but Blizzard is trying to accommodate all parties involved without completely alienating one specific group.
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United States97276 Posts
On September 11 2017 23:35 Ej_ wrote:
Maybe you should region lock INnoVation out of GSL after his super tournament run too.
yeah next year
WCS Innovation vs other AI, WCS Korea, WCS Neeb, WCS World
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On September 12 2017 00:01 Bagration wrote:
Is Neeb the foreign GOAT?
It's getting harder and harder to aurgue that he isn't. Three championships in a single year is pretty incredible.
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On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb.
You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple. 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 12 2017 00:40 Raineeb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple.
It's actually not that much money if you consider what he has to do. Constant traveling, not much free time(unless something changed in the past 2 years) etc.
I wouldn't do it, but I don't like LotV, if you like LotV it's a great career choice. If you can make it :o)
I stay with programming :o)
Edit> I may consider watching Blizzcon actually. Would love to see Neeb vs. sOs there. That means if that happens, I love sOs crushing foreign prodigies :D
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I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt.
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damn Neeb, he's so good. Hope he kicks ass at Blizzcon this year.
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On September 11 2017 23:35 Ej_ wrote:
Maybe you should region lock INnoVation out of GSL after his super tournament run too.
??
aLive swept Inno 3-0 in the very first round of Super Tournament #1, Super Tournament #2 hasn't happened yet.
On topic, Neeb is looking really dominant in the foreign scene, but the top Koreans are definitely still favored against him. He is in fantastic form, and he's definitely the best foreigner heading to Blizzcon, but the Neeb fanboys will overhype him under any circumstances.
It's the same story as last year, the Neeb hype train building steam until Dark stepped in to put a sudden end to it all. No doubt the same thing will happen again this year. Neeb might be able to make a deep run at Blizzcon, but sooner or later the Koreans will have their say (and their way).
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On September 12 2017 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:40 Raineeb wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple. It's actually not that much money if you consider what he has to do. Constant traveling, not much free time(unless something changed in the past 2 years) etc. I wouldn't do it, but I don't like LotV, if you like LotV it's a great career choice. If you can make it :o) I stay with programming :o) Edit> I may consider watching Blizzcon actually. Would love to see Neeb vs. sOs there. That means if that happens, I love sOs crushing foreign prodigies :D
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_GSL_vs._the_World
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On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious
Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance.
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I mean, come on, when you complain about Koreans "getting money", just think about how much advantage they have when European and US players really do not have to worry about any visa issues whatsoever. Cyan forfeit 3 WCS circuits in a row this year. Being competitive is one thing, whether you are even allowed to participate is totally different.
BTW, I think the stimulation effect region lock gives to foreign players has clearly faded and the level of play in foreign scenes are clearly worse off than 2016. Cloudy was in WCS Valencia ro16, a player who cannot get minor highlights in domestic events. Of course there is a lot of luck in getting to the right group, but to me you are looking for "excuses" that are way too trivial. What is a bigger issue, forfeiting WCS Circuit 3 times in a row because of visa or the insufferable pain of having to live in South Korea for a while as a European or NA visa holder? Not to mention other real sufferings from some even worse countries.
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On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance.
But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it.
I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close.
So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people.
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On September 12 2017 04:55 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance. But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it. I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close. So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people.
Then we have some serious disputes on what kind of countries do count as third world. U really want to put the bar down to countries like Uganda?
You can say Cyan currently has no team or sponsor so he should be counted as amateur instead of pro player. Couldn't argue with that 
The problem is, the argument that Koreans are receiving "welfare" is just madness, and somebody even dare taking the expense of living in South Korea as a barrier? This is just crazy.
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On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt.
Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from????
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On September 12 2017 05:50 Mouriner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt. Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from????
It comes from not knowing the legacy that the word Bonjwa carries, and leniency in allowing this kind of shitposting to distort its real meaning.
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On September 12 2017 05:08 RedAlice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 04:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance. But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it. I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close. So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people. Then we have some serious disputes on what kind of countries do count as third world. U really want to put the bar down to countries like Uganda? You can say Cyan currently has no team or sponsor so he should be counted as amateur instead of pro player. Couldn't argue with that The problem is, the argument that Koreans are receiving "welfare" is just madness, and somebody even dare taking the expense of living in South Korea as a barrier? This is just crazy.
I looked up the people who forfeited because of visa issues, and those are the countries I found. It's possible I missed one or two, but let's go through them.
China - Definitely not a third-world country...certain parts are poor, but overall, I think it is that bad.
Philippines - It's not a wealthy country, but it is a developing country, and it contributed one person's visa issues.
Korea - Not a third-world country at all, and violet did get his visa issues sorted later on.
Kazakhstan - A developing country, it isn't the wealthiest country by any means, but it is developing quickly. I wouldn't really consider this a third-world country.
So would you consider these countries to be third-world? And even if all except China are third-world countries, that makes it less than 5 people in two years who have forfeit their places because of visa issues. I really don't think that living in poorer countries is really the issue.
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For all the talk about Neeb being untouchable - I think Serral/Elazer can take him on. Serral already got 1 map close when they met in the finals, it's just unfortunate that they always get ZvZ'ed out.
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On September 12 2017 05:52 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:50 Mouriner wrote:On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt. Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from???? It comes from not knowing the legacy that the word Bonjwa carries, and leniency in allowing this kind of shitposting to distort its real meaning.
Not even any of the Koreans, not Mvp, not Life, and not Inno can be called a bonjwa. And every single one of them have been far more dominant in SC2 than Neeb ever has.
"Bonjwa" means something. It's not just a title to be tossed around for your favorite player who wins a couple weekend (and foreign at that) tournaments.
To put this into context, INnoVation made a 15-1 run over some of the best players in the world (ByuN, Stats, TY) at GSL vs the World to take the trophy. If and only if he managed to repeat that kind of complete dominance in both SSL and GSL, by which I mean dropping 1 map on the way to the first-ever double Starleague championship, and then repeated it again at Blizzcon, then we might, might, MIGHT have been able to call him a bonjwa.
Inno didn't do it. He made the GSL finals, but he also dropped out of SSL. He's a great player, one of the greatest, but he's not a bonjwa. Mvp and Life were also some of the greatest. Neither of them are a bonjwa.
Neeb is a great player. The best foreigner right now. Arguably the greatest foreigner ever. He is not one of the greatest. Calling Neeb a bonjwa, when he hasn't done anything near what that honor demands, is a gross insult to the title.
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On September 12 2017 06:29 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:52 207aicila wrote:On September 12 2017 05:50 Mouriner wrote:On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt. Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from???? It comes from not knowing the legacy that the word Bonjwa carries, and leniency in allowing this kind of shitposting to distort its real meaning. Not even any of the Koreans, not Mvp, not Life, and not Inno can be called a bonjwa. And every single one of them have been far more dominant in SC2 than Neeb ever has. "Bonjwa" means something. It's not just a title to be tossed around for your favorite player who wins a couple weekend (and foreign at that) tournaments. To put this into context, INnoVation made a 15-1 run over some of the best players in the world (ByuN, Stats, TY) at GSL vs the World to take the trophy. If and only if he managed to repeat that kind of complete dominance in both SSL and GSL, by which I mean dropping 1 map on the way to the first-ever double Starleague championship, and then repeated it again at Blizzcon, then we might, might, MIGHT have been able to call him a bonjwa. Inno didn't do it. He made the GSL finals, but he also dropped out of SSL. He's a great player, one of the greatest, but he's not a bonjwa. Mvp and Life were also some of the greatest. Neither of them are a bonjwa. Neeb is a great player. The best foreigner right now. Arguably the greatest foreigner ever. He is not one of the greatest. Calling Neeb a bonjwa, when he hasn't done anything near what that title demands, is a gross insult to the word.
I guess you could call him a bonjwa of the foreign scene.
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The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
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On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
Whether it has succeeded to increase viewer numbers is very arguable.
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Bonjwas didn't win everything either btw, the whole term isn't somethign which needs protection.
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On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
I would very much agree with this.
It's similar to how some people like watching their race win, and they are less interested when the finals showcases people of different races. A PvP might be very exciting to some people, but for the Zerg and Terran fans, it might be less interesting.
So the region lock is about protecting the foreign professionals so that those storylines can be developed, because it's a little bit more difficult to form a storyline around people who only make it to the ro16.
For me, I would take HuK as an example. Over 2010-2012, he had a fantastic storyline of going from TL to EG and winning a number of high-level tournaments and playing in the GSL, but from 2013-2015 his storyline just sort of dropped off.
Or Stephano during his golden years of playing versus foreigners and Koreans and winning lots of tournaments. He had a very vibrant storyline from 2012-2013, but it just drops off after that. We don't hear much from him 2014-on, and except for the swarm host game versus Jaedong, he just fades away. Now, he has come back a little bit since then, but not in the same capacity.
So would Neeb's storyline be as big as it is now if he was still stuck in the ro16/ro8 losing to the top Koreans without the region lock? I don't think it would be as big.
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On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
no because obviously GSL is the top tier of skill and any foreigner going to korea gets stomp smashed immediately in the group stages duh. and obviously it has to be offline, or it'd be like the first sc2 TSL where foreigners managed to beat MVP and Nestea
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On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name.
No one's denying that Neeb won a tournament, or that he's the best foreigner. People were saying that he won a tournament that lacked the best players in it. And that he wouldn't have won if every player was allowed in regardless of origin
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also the region locking took a daed game and made it even more daed. nobody cares about foreign only tourneys. back in the golden age of NASL, MLG, and IPL it was exciting to see foreigners beating koreans. neeb is legit good because he beat koreans multiple times in high stakes games. now who cares? just a bunch of foreigners fighting each other boring.
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United States1903 Posts
On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
It would be nice if staff started handing out mod actions for those kinds of posts, since it's not only racist but literally demonstrably false.
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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
Shameless self-promotion, smh 
To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of?
The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought.
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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
I don't think anyone really thinks that koreans have no personality. But the term "faceless korean" got to be a thing because there is truth to it. Koreans always had the same interviews, koreans in general didn't do a lot to be entertaining outside the game (ofc one could make the same case for foreigners but we had players like Idra, HuK, Stephano, etc back then).
Add to that the general language barrier. It's definitely not "the biggest crock of bullshit" especially when you consider that we are extremely hardcore on TL for following the korean scene. We go the extra mile to enjoy that content even sometimes watching streams without any english commentary if necessary. The average fan doesn't do that, he wants to watch a few games here and there and the more accessible the content the better.
So it's really just natural that in general people want to see players who speak their language (or english because most people understand that), it's no surprise that players like Polt, MC and Jaedong got to be fan favorites. Polt obviously with good english, the other two just a few words/sentences here and there. That stuff matters, just because it doesn't matter (as much) to the hardcore crowd doesn't mean that there is no truth at all to "faceless korean".
One can certainly say that the term itself is poorly worded, but there is a reason it exists.
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On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule.
You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place.
You'll be reminded at Blizzcon.
Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?!
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On September 12 2017 08:07 PuddleZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule. You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place. You'll be reminded at Blizzcon. Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?!
His Terran was decent for a 14 year old kid, if I recall.
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United States1903 Posts
On September 12 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo Shameless self-promotion, smh To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of? The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought.
There are a lot of reasons why it's difficult to arrange these things. These include availability/interest of both writer and player, having a translator (whose duties extend far beyond just translating an interview), being there in person to do interviews etc. We were able to overcome them with soO because he and I had been in contact since I modded for him on twitch and I was already planning a trip to Korea. He speaks English at an above average level and was very interested in doing something of this sort as a means of communicating with/giving back to his foreign fans for their support. Unfortunately I don't see us being able to duplicate that sort of effort in the near future, but it would be irresponsible to completely write it off.
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On September 12 2017 08:07 PuddleZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule. You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place. You'll be reminded at Blizzcon. Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?!
Pretty good then considering he was WCS AM playoffs player as Terran while like 14 and only playing part time.
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On September 12 2017 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Whether it has succeeded to increase viewer numbers is very arguable.
I'd say it definitely increased live crowd viewership. I remember many events with like 20 people in crowd total
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On September 12 2017 08:16 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo Shameless self-promotion, smh To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of? The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought. There are a lot of reasons why it's difficult to arrange these things. These include availability/interest of both writer and player, having a translator (whose duties extend far beyond just translating an interview), being there in person to do interviews etc. We were able to overcome them with soO because he and I had been in contact since I modded for him on twitch and I was already planning a trip to Korea. He speaks English at an above average level and was very interested in doing something of this sort as a means of communicating with/giving back to his foreign fans for their support. Unfortunately I don't see us being able to duplicate that sort of effort in the near future, but it would be irresponsible to completely write it off.
That was why I mentioned Splyce, I figured team management might be able to help and Solar of course speaks excellent English. Alternatively, if soO enjoyed the experience, maybe he could recommend it to his friends. Obviously location is an issue but Blizzcon for instance will get some of the progamers into the US. Wasn't Wax involved with the WCS Signature Series last year? That might be an opportunity for him to sit down for a bit longer with some progamers. Just speculating/dreaming, probably just wishful thinking on my part.
Of course, I understand if the players simply aren't interested or if circumstances just can't permit.
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Neeb says he is not gifted and hard practice allows him to win, but when i see his games, DAMN i shout that kid is touched by the SC2 gods...I mean everytime he plays the knife edge of harass/defend/expand perfectly!! His macro is ahead of his micro, but his micro is insane also! Forcefields, disruptor shots, blink, shades, pnix play...
he could go all the way...Best foreigner ever??? YES he is.
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Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed.
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On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed.
1) This stands if it was the same game, LotV in its current state is twice as hard as WoL or HotS ever was...and that goes for all races...
2) Neeb won a serious comp in Korea (this counts for 5 major wins at least!)
Therefore Neeb is the best foreigner ever...
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Neeb is the first sc2 player that's impressed me in at least one year, absolute joy to watch, his pvz is masterclass.
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On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed.
Just because someone is not the best doesn't mean they don't deserve a second thought, losing at Blizzcon is not reason for someone to be embarrassed.
To those calling WCS foreign welfare, it's rude regardless of how you justify it because it implies that it doesn't require any work to achieve.
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On September 12 2017 13:10 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed. Just because someone is not the best doesn't mean they don't deserve a second thought, losing at Blizzcon is not reason for someone to be embarrassed. To those calling WCS foreign welfare, it's rude regardless of how you justify it because it implies that it doesn't require any work to achieve.
"Welfare" does not undermine the work people do. People who receive government welfare aren't exactly "moochers" who just sit at home and refuse to work, despite what some people may want you to believe. Same deal with WCS. There should be no question that the competition is a lot easier when you restrict some of the objectively best players from attending. Winning is made easier -- but that doesn't mean it requires no work. This is a great achievement by Neeb -- job made easier by the absence of top Koreans, but nonetheless, impressive achievement.
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hmm not sure why its my twitch account on here but w.e anyways maybes its cause i havent followed sc2 in like 6months but these names dont seem to impressive i mean there are a couple but is it just me or have the competition gotten weaker in this game. I mean gratz to neeb but yikes this games gone down hill.
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On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
As I said there are exceptions, but sadly we don't get big well written like this with most Koreans and they're not that easy to find for casual viewers
(oh and without being racist: it is harder for everyone from any ethnicity to distinguish between people from different ethnicities if they didn't spend a lot of time with a group of people in that ethnicity. Caucasians have it difficult to distinguish between Asians and Asians have it difficult to distinguish between Caucasians.(maybe that's where the faceless Korean comes from I don't know.))
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On September 12 2017 06:08 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:08 RedAlice wrote:On September 12 2017 04:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance. But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it. I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close. So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people. Then we have some serious disputes on what kind of countries do count as third world. U really want to put the bar down to countries like Uganda? You can say Cyan currently has no team or sponsor so he should be counted as amateur instead of pro player. Couldn't argue with that The problem is, the argument that Koreans are receiving "welfare" is just madness, and somebody even dare taking the expense of living in South Korea as a barrier? This is just crazy. I looked up the people who forfeited because of visa issues, and those are the countries I found. It's possible I missed one or two, but let's go through them. China - Definitely not a third-world country...certain parts are poor, but overall, I think it is that bad. Philippines - It's not a wealthy country, but it is a developing country, and it contributed one person's visa issues. Korea - Not a third-world country at all, and violet did get his visa issues sorted later on. Kazakhstan - A developing country, it isn't the wealthiest country by any means, but it is developing quickly. I wouldn't really consider this a third-world country. So would you consider these countries to be third-world? And even if all except China are third-world countries, that makes it less than 5 people in two years who have forfeit their places because of visa issues. I really don't think that living in poorer countries is really the issue.
How many pro players are there worldwide makes you think that 5 players being locked for no reason is a small deal? With one Ro8 player in Copa Intercontinental last year being locked the entire year.
What would you think if Scarlett is unable to compete the foreign scene a whole year? Ro16 player for the entire 17.
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On September 12 2017 10:33 AxiomBlurr wrote:
Neeb says he is not gifted and hard practice allows him to win, but when i see his games, DAMN i shout that kid is touched by the SC2 gods...I mean everytime he plays the knife edge of harass/defend/expand perfectly!! His macro is ahead of his micro, but his micro is insane also! Forcefields, disruptor shots, blink, shades, pnix play...
he could go all the way...Best foreigner ever??? YES he is.
Neeb said during the tournament that he is "somewhat naturally talented I guess".
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 12 2017 01:39 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:On September 12 2017 00:40 Raineeb wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple. It's actually not that much money if you consider what he has to do. Constant traveling, not much free time(unless something changed in the past 2 years) etc. I wouldn't do it, but I don't like LotV, if you like LotV it's a great career choice. If you can make it :o) I stay with programming :o) Edit> I may consider watching Blizzcon actually. Would love to see Neeb vs. sOs there. That means if that happens, I love sOs crushing foreign prodigies :D http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_GSL_vs._the_World
sOs at Blizzcon is usually someone totally different $O$ =)
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On September 12 2017 00:04 Myrddrael wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Wahhhhh. How about everyone else gets better and actually challenges him?
LOL you totally missed my sarcasm.
Nice try though.
My point is that Neeb's dominance has every bit of the same feeling to it as Polt's, Taeja's, Life's or MC's. The tournaments simply don't seem fair because Neeb is so far and ahead from EVERY other player in it and has been all year long and stretching back into 2016.
Yet no one is ACTUALLY calling for him to be banned from the tournament because he's an American player instead of Korean. Where's the difference? He's dominating these tournaments barely looking challenged while doing it and it's making the experience of watching these tournaments every bit as dull as the foreign scene was looking when it was being dominated by whichever choice Korean players got invited as was the case a few years ago.
The whole case for region locking was to bring up the ENTIRETY of the foreign scene not just for one standout player to emerge. Who is to say a player of Neeb's caliber wouldn't have emerged regardless of region locking? I guess we'll see at Blizzcon whether Neeb is the actual real thing or if he's just making a mockery of a super weak foreign scene. Right now the entire aspect of region locking just leaves a sour taste in people's mouth when they talk about Neeb since he is so dominant yet hasn't been able to play against the ACTUAL best in the world all year long, unlike other notable foreigners like Major, Scarlett and Elazer, who while are top tier players in the foreign scene could barely scratch wins in the GSL's Ro32. Neeb might be the one quality player in the foreign scene that could actually stand up in that tournament and yet he hasn't competed in it.
Like I said, it leaves a sour taste.
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France12905 Posts
On September 12 2017 08:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 08:07 PuddleZerg wrote:On September 11 2017 18:34 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. WCS is specifically designed to limit the participation of players not living in the countries they are playing from. Don't act like they are the same thing. They are not the same thing, but they are identical in the fact that none of them are welfare ^_^ No one should be surprised that hyperbole get answered with hyperbole. Both are half right and half wrong so lets stop beating the dead mule. You know, I remember when Koreans were allowed in WCS and why they locked it in the first place. You'll be reminded at Blizzcon. Also was anyone else bothered when Neeb said he had "natural talent"? I REMEMBER YOUR TERRAN NEEB, WHERE WAS THE TALENT THEN?! His Terran was decent for a 14 year old kid, if I recall.
That's quite a bs excuse lol.
Raynor and Clem are very good young players for their age, but they most probably won't ever dominate the game. However, they might be able to do very well on another similar game! (example: Stephano was decent in warcraft 3 as a young player but he only reached his full potential on another game)
Neeb wouldn't have been as successful with terran because no foreign terran can, and Neeb is a foreigner. It just won't happen on sc2 unless Blizzard changes a lot of stuff.
On September 12 2017 12:11 AxiomBlurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 11:05 Bayaz90 wrote:
Neeb has a 46% winrate vs Koreans in Offline events (Stephano's was 49% btw). Innovation's is 64%... that alone shows that Neeb doesn't even deserve a second thought.
The fact that so many players think he is so good shows that the region lock did what Blizzard wanted-- create artificial hype for the hometown heroes, kind of like how people love TSM even though they are not even good enough to scrim Korean teams, but at Blizzcon he will get embarrassed. 1) This stands if it was the same game, LotV in its current state is twice as hard as WoL or HotS ever was...and that goes for all races... 2) Neeb won a serious comp in Korea (this counts for 5 major wins at least!) Therefore Neeb is the best foreigner ever...
Is this a troll? :D I know it is but it's still impressive how that doesn't make any sense.
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Poland3751 Posts
On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality.
TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think.
Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining.
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On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining.
Exactly my point. It's very hard to give Neeb fair praise for his dominance because he's doing it with the gigantic asterisk of "REGION LOCKING" stamped all over all of his accomplishments.
Stephano remains the hands down best foreigner because his dominance was done in the face of otherwise Korean dominance in the foreign scene at the height of the game's popularity. Neeb hasn't accomplished anything like that.
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France12905 Posts
On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining.
Foreigner scene right now is easier to dominate than before.
If Nerchio is right and protoss is really that strong in PvZ if played well, Neeb has it easy because there are a bazillion zergs, one protoss and no terran.
If you think about it, it's quite a joke.
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On September 12 2017 19:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Foreigner scene right now is easier to dominate than before. If Nerchio is right and protoss is really that strong in PvZ if played well, Neeb has it easy because there are a bazillion zergs, one protoss and no terran. If you think about it, it's quite a joke.
If you count a bazillion zergs you have to count two Terrans not none
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France12905 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:16 Corvuuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 19:14 Poopi wrote:On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Foreigner scene right now is easier to dominate than before. If Nerchio is right and protoss is really that strong in PvZ if played well, Neeb has it easy because there are a bazillion zergs, one protoss and no terran. If you think about it, it's quite a joke. If you count a bazillion zergs you have to count two Terrans not none
What?
No foreigner has a shot at winning a premier foreign tournament with terran.
Special almost did it iirc but he went to Korea to train hard but still couldn't beat Snute of all people.
So no, there are a lot of zergs that can win tourneys in the foreign scene, and they did, and one protoss other than Neeb: ShoWTimE.
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Neeb is doing incredibly well, and I strongly believe the region locking is a part of that. Not because the scene is easier, though it is, but because the incentive to work hard to be able to win championships was enough for him to give it's best.
This would probably have never happened without regionlock.
I really feel his run in WCS (repeatedly) is top korean level. All foreigners are getting better, cause more money for them means more reason to practice. And losing only 2 maps, is not something easy. All top eight players can take maps of top koreans.
So maybe he isn't top 3, but I would put this performance at top ten level. And aligulac seems to agree on that by putting him top 1.
On my opinion, region locking did its job pretty well by making the scene better. Yes, sure, one of the foreigners is way ahead, but nobody is considering locking Innovation, right ?
Plus, top eight still get a good amount of money, making them wanna fight for places and even why not first place, as Elazer managed to do.
Let's see what happens in Blizzcon. Last year was a nice surprise with some foreigners making good run. I'm sure this can happen again this year. I mean Scarlett made it to GSL and isn't even qualified for Blizzcon. This must give some credit to the other players, no ?
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So who claims the other 2 blizzcon spots that Neeb has? I can't find any information on how that works.
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Poland3751 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Exactly my point. It's very hard to give Neeb fair praise for his dominance because he's doing it with the gigantic asterisk of "REGION LOCKING" stamped all over all of his accomplishments. Stephano remains the hands down best foreigner because his dominance was done in the face of otherwise Korean dominance in the foreign scene at the height of the game's popularity. Neeb hasn't accomplished anything like that.
Well Both NaNi and HuK have claim IMO and unlike Stephano they did fairly well in preparation format (GSL).
Especially NaNi was impressive at the time even if his career ended with only 2 premier wins.
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France12905 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:39 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Exactly my point. It's very hard to give Neeb fair praise for his dominance because he's doing it with the gigantic asterisk of "REGION LOCKING" stamped all over all of his accomplishments. Stephano remains the hands down best foreigner because his dominance was done in the face of otherwise Korean dominance in the foreign scene at the height of the game's popularity. Neeb hasn't accomplished anything like that. Well Both NaNi and HuK have claim IMO and unlike Stephano they did fairly well in preparation format (GSL). Especially NaNi was impressive at the time even if his career ended with only 2 premier wins.
It's not that Stephano wasn't that good in preparation format iirc, he just didn't give much of a shit about GSL because it wasn't a good investment monetary wise, and he didn't care much about the prestige of a "Korean starleague" because well, he doesn't come from BW.
He was decently good in proleague among the foreigners afaik, so he is decent in it.
tl;dr: you can't say that HuK and NaNi were doing better than Stephano in preparation format, because he never really played such tournaments (at least not enough times to be able to compare) so we can't really know.
Since he was a better player overall I'd say he trumps them even in this format, but he liked partying and winning easy $$$ too much.
edit: the tl;dr is longer than the original post :D not enough sleep sorry.
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On September 12 2017 17:59 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:04 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Wahhhhh. How about everyone else gets better and actually challenges him? LOL you totally missed my sarcasm. Nice try though. My point is that Neeb's dominance has every bit of the same feeling to it as Polt's, Taeja's, Life's or MC's. The tournaments simply don't seem fair because Neeb is so far and ahead from EVERY other player in it and has been all year long and stretching back into 2016. Yet no one is ACTUALLY calling for him to be banned from the tournament because he's an American player instead of Korean. Where's the difference? He's dominating these tournaments barely looking challenged while doing it and it's making the experience of watching these tournaments every bit as dull as the foreign scene was looking when it was being dominated by whichever choice Korean players got invited as was the case a few years ago. The whole case for region locking was to bring up the ENTIRETY of the foreign scene not just for one standout player to emerge. Who is to say a player of Neeb's caliber wouldn't have emerged regardless of region locking? I guess we'll see at Blizzcon whether Neeb is the actual real thing or if he's just making a mockery of a super weak foreign scene. Right now the entire aspect of region locking just leaves a sour taste in people's mouth when they talk about Neeb since he is so dominant yet hasn't been able to play against the ACTUAL best in the world all year long, unlike other notable foreigners like Major, Scarlett and Elazer, who while are top tier players in the foreign scene could barely scratch wins in the GSL's Ro32. Neeb might be the one quality player in the foreign scene that could actually stand up in that tournament and yet he hasn't competed in it. Like I said, it leaves a sour taste.
That's because he failed in the qualifiers. So obviously he wasn't gonna do any better.
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On September 12 2017 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Exactly my point. It's very hard to give Neeb fair praise for his dominance because he's doing it with the gigantic asterisk of "REGION LOCKING" stamped all over all of his accomplishments. Stephano remains the hands down best foreigner because his dominance was done in the face of otherwise Korean dominance in the foreign scene at the height of the game's popularity. Neeb hasn't accomplished anything like that.
For me, Neeb is greater than Stephano due to the Kespa Cup win. Dude won a premier in Korea against Koreans. Stephano was great but didn't really accomplish anything in Korea.
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Poland425 Posts
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss.
User was warned for this post
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On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss.
I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss.
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On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss.
honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame
this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise
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Neeb beat n00bs to win, what a surprise
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On September 12 2017 19:21 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 19:16 Corvuuss wrote:On September 12 2017 19:14 Poopi wrote:On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Foreigner scene right now is easier to dominate than before. If Nerchio is right and protoss is really that strong in PvZ if played well, Neeb has it easy because there are a bazillion zergs, one protoss and no terran. If you think about it, it's quite a joke. If you count a bazillion zergs you have to count two Terrans not none What? No foreigner has a shot at winning a premier foreign tournament with terran. Special almost did it iirc but he went to Korea to train hard but still couldn't beat Snute of all people. So no, there are a lot of zergs that can win tourneys in the foreign scene, and they did, and one protoss other than Neeb: ShoWTimE.
Special is the only guy to beat Neeb in playoffs, he also made Serral look like a noob in their series. To say he doesn't have a shot at winning a WCS event is stupid. He's the reason Neeb didn't win all four
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On September 12 2017 23:17 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Exactly my point. It's very hard to give Neeb fair praise for his dominance because he's doing it with the gigantic asterisk of "REGION LOCKING" stamped all over all of his accomplishments. Stephano remains the hands down best foreigner because his dominance was done in the face of otherwise Korean dominance in the foreign scene at the height of the game's popularity. Neeb hasn't accomplished anything like that. For me, Neeb is greater than Stephano due to the Kespa Cup win. Dude won a premier in Korea against Koreans. Stephano was great but didn't really accomplish anything in Korea.
Stephano had consistancy against koreans. Neeb won kespa cup of the back of PvP, and has failed to live up to that hype ever since (as far as winning against koreans goes)
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Poland425 Posts
On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise
Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then.
Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums.
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On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums.
Look at the winrate and shut up already.
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On September 13 2017 01:34 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 19:21 Poopi wrote:On September 12 2017 19:16 Corvuuss wrote:On September 12 2017 19:14 Poopi wrote:On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Foreigner scene right now is easier to dominate than before. If Nerchio is right and protoss is really that strong in PvZ if played well, Neeb has it easy because there are a bazillion zergs, one protoss and no terran. If you think about it, it's quite a joke. If you count a bazillion zergs you have to count two Terrans not none What? No foreigner has a shot at winning a premier foreign tournament with terran. Special almost did it iirc but he went to Korea to train hard but still couldn't beat Snute of all people. So no, there are a lot of zergs that can win tourneys in the foreign scene, and they did, and one protoss other than Neeb: ShoWTimE. Special is the only guy to beat Neeb in playoffs, he also made Serral look like a noob in their series. To say he doesn't have a shot at winning a WCS event is stupid. He's the reason Neeb didn't win all four
As I thought you meant showtime has a chance, you have to mention kelazhur as well, because he performed better than showtime for most of the year.
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On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb.
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Hopefully Neeb can qualify for the GSL next time...
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Poland425 Posts
On September 13 2017 02:15 RedAlice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums. Look at the winrate and shut up already.
I don't know about you, but I possesed the power of writing with my mouth not open. There is nothing to shut. Stop being offensive. I assume that mods are here and will intervene on this BM.
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On September 13 2017 01:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 23:17 Bagration wrote:On September 12 2017 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 12 2017 18:54 nimdil wrote:On September 11 2017 18:23 Meeii wrote:On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time. Just wait, it will happen. Neeb has everything that is required for a region lock - better than everyone else and no "fun" personality. TBH I think he dominates foreign scene more than Stephano did. What is different is that Stephano prevailed even though koreans traveled happily around the world and the korean scene was more thriving (I mean - no korean teams or s.t.) I think. Hard to compare the two - Stephano dominated when SC2 was growing, Neeb is dominating when scene is (I feel) declining. Exactly my point. It's very hard to give Neeb fair praise for his dominance because he's doing it with the gigantic asterisk of "REGION LOCKING" stamped all over all of his accomplishments. Stephano remains the hands down best foreigner because his dominance was done in the face of otherwise Korean dominance in the foreign scene at the height of the game's popularity. Neeb hasn't accomplished anything like that. For me, Neeb is greater than Stephano due to the Kespa Cup win. Dude won a premier in Korea against Koreans. Stephano was great but didn't really accomplish anything in Korea. Stephano had consistancy against koreans. Neeb won kespa cup of the back of PvP, and has failed to live up to that hype ever since (as far as winning against koreans goes)
Very true. Neeb's Kespa Cup looks more prestigious on paper, but the vast majority of Stephano's achievements, even the tournaments where he only placed 2nd, 3rd or 4th, he defeated pretty strong Koreans to get there. Back in those days every major tournament had at least a handful of Korean players: MLG, DH, IEM, NASL, IPL, LoneStar Clash, HSC, etc.
He went toe-to-toe with them better than anyone else could manage at the time and kept it up for quite a while. He was even trading series with strong TvZers like Polt and Bomber.
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On September 13 2017 03:10 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 02:15 RedAlice wrote:On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums. Look at the winrate and shut up already. I don't know about you, but I possesed the power of writing with my mouth not open. There is nothing to shut. Stop being offensive. I assume that mods are here and will intervene on this BM.
If you report posts they normally look at them
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On September 13 2017 03:15 Corvuuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 03:10 hiroshOne wrote:On September 13 2017 02:15 RedAlice wrote:On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums. Look at the winrate and shut up already. I don't know about you, but I possesed the power of writing with my mouth not open. There is nothing to shut. Stop being offensive. I assume that mods are here and will intervene on this BM. If you report posts they normally look at them
Frivolous reporting is discouraged, especially with regard to balance whining (shocker, I know).
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United States1903 Posts
On September 12 2017 09:03 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 08:16 mizenhauer wrote:On September 12 2017 07:49 pvsnp wrote:On September 12 2017 07:32 mizenhauer wrote:On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example) Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo Shameless self-promotion, smh To be fair, it is a superbly-written article. If possible (I get there are practical restrictions), I'd love to see some similar articles about other progamers. Maybe the Splyce guys would be easiest to get ahold of? The insight he provided into the inner workings of SKT (and by extension, KeSPA) were very enlightening. I'd be curious to see what soO's teammates thought of the same situation, or what other KeSPA players thought. There are a lot of reasons why it's difficult to arrange these things. These include availability/interest of both writer and player, having a translator (whose duties extend far beyond just translating an interview), being there in person to do interviews etc. We were able to overcome them with soO because he and I had been in contact since I modded for him on twitch and I was already planning a trip to Korea. He speaks English at an above average level and was very interested in doing something of this sort as a means of communicating with/giving back to his foreign fans for their support. Unfortunately I don't see us being able to duplicate that sort of effort in the near future, but it would be irresponsible to completely write it off. That was why I mentioned Splyce, I figured team management might be able to help and Solar of course speaks excellent English. Alternatively, if soO enjoyed the experience, maybe he could recommend it to his friends. Obviously location is an issue but Blizzcon for instance will get some of the progamers into the US. Wasn't Wax involved with the WCS Signature Series last year? That might be an opportunity for him to sit down for a bit longer with some progamers. Just speculating/dreaming, probably just wishful thinking on my part. Of course, I understand if the players simply aren't interested or if circumstances just can't permit.
A project like this also requires a writer (and to a lesser degree a translator) to be very interested in pursuing a project/player. I spent more than 20 hours working on the project in Korea and spent even more time once I'd returned home. You don't just invest that amount of effort in something unless you're really passionate about it. I'm always trying to come up with new stuff that casts Korean players in a different light, but the format used for the soO profile might not be the form it takes.
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On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums.
If you refuse to acknowledge that the players you cited have a very long history of complaining about balance while crushing the race that they are complaining about then there's nothing left to discuss. You are not here to discuss anything, you are just announcing that protoss op then why bother posting anything? Recovering from a 42% winrate in the match up is considered op then I guess in your mind protoss just is not allowed to win.
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Ignore the irrelevant hundred other posts. Congratulations Neeb!
Show nested quote +[quote]Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb!
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On September 13 2017 06:08 KR_4EVR wrote:Ignore the irrelevant hundred other posts. Congratulations Neeb! Show nested quote +[quote]Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb! Ignore what everybody else is saying here. Congratulations, Neeb!
They're not entirely irrelevant, but it is true in this post we should all just be congratulating Neeb, so: Congratulations Neeb!
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Katowice25012 Posts
Neeb is good and that is fun
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On September 13 2017 08:04 Heyoka wrote:
Neeb is good and that is fun
I couldnt't have said it any better
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region locking is dumb, and the reason neeb is a legit good player is because he's stomped koreans. given that he is stomping in a time when skill level has risen tremendously he absolutely deserves to be mentioned with the greats such as early GSL jinro, naniwa, and stephano - and a strong case can be made that he should be held in higher regard than they were (due to the skill level increase)
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On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums.
So are you saying the game is not balanced? It is fairly balanced if you ask me. Although the Korean pros like Innovation and Stats are complaining that zerg is overpowered. But on the WCS circuit Neeb is crushing the Zergs. Having said that I think the game is in a pretty ok state balance-wise. The upcoming changes after blizzcon will fine tune it more
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On September 13 2017 08:04 Heyoka wrote:
Neeb is good and that is fun
Yeah It's fun to see someone this good and consistent as Neeb! Someone winning almost all of the Premier Tourney trophies in 1 year have not happened before. What's more exciting is that we have seen him grow from a nervous kid to becoming an absolute beast! Whether he's on par w/ top Koreans or not what he did this year is definitely a historical moment. 2017 is the year of Neeb!
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On September 13 2017 12:11 Raineeb wrote:Yeah It's fun to see someone this good and consistent as Neeb! Someone winning almost all of the Premier Tourney trophies in 1 year have not happened before. What's more exciting is that we have seen him grow from a nervous kid to becoming an absolute beast! Whether he's on par w/ top Koreans or not what he did this year is definitely a historical moment. 2017 is the year of Neeb!
never forget
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Poland425 Posts
On September 13 2017 12:05 Raineeb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2017 01:41 hiroshOne wrote:On September 13 2017 00:48 brickrd wrote:On September 13 2017 00:38 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2017 00:14 hiroshOne wrote:
Shocker:
Neeb is doing incredible well especially in PvZ because Protoss is broken in that matchup. It's not only my opinion, as it would matter anyway (I'm just diamond player) but many pros as well- Nerchio for example. And u won't say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I'm not saying that Neeb isn't good player. He is, but lots of his dominance is coming from number of Zerg pros in foreign scene and how Protoss is in favor in fighting them. He just abuses that favorable elements more and better than any other foreign protoss. I mean....you did look at the Protoss winrate without Neeb, right? Plus, if it were really that imbalanced, I feel like the Korean region, with stronger Protoss, would be even more dominant in PvZ. But as it is, I don't really think the Zerg are doing that much worse than Protoss. honestly the way zerg is designed zerg always tends to get bad a long time after major expansions/patches and as the meta settles. as toss and terran get better and better at doing the safest most efficient harass it becomes very difficult for zerg to efficiently defend and win games without taking risks and using gimmicks. it's just the drone/larva mechanic. zerg needs to conserve economy and naturally bleeds units, so as matchups get closer and more technical zerg struggles. this isn't even a balance thing, it's just design. as a zerg player i don't think zerg is underpowered at all, it's just hard to succeed with zerg in a calm metagame this is also why zerg stays strong at casual ladder levels, because the game isn't as technical and precise Well, balance issues have their source in design. I won't argue aboit that here but one thing must be mentioned. The way the Protoss can be agressive, perfectly safe vs counterattacks (photon overcharge), can tech and grow his economy in the same time. Compared to Zerg, which if wants to defend, or be agressive, must cut his economy. So basically in scenario when Protoss harrases, with adepts or Oracles (as we saw in the finals) or is being agressive, even if he won't kill workers he already damages Zerg heavily as Zerg must cut drones to defend...And in the end, it means he's already dead if he doesn't make some gimicky allin. In the same time, when Zerg is struggling to defend, Protoss is safely getting all the eco and tech he wishes. Not fair in my opinion as I believe that agression towards the enemy should be commitment. That's why I'm looking forward to major changes in the end of the year. Maybe things will be better then. Also funny that mods warned me because of my post. Team Liquid is hosted in North Korea or sth? I did not BMed anyone. Just expressed my opinion on certain things. As people use to do on forums. So are you saying the game is not balanced? It is fairly balanced if you ask me. Although the Korean pros like Innovation and Stats are complaining that zerg is overpowered. But on the WCS circuit Neeb is crushing the Zergs. Having said that I think the game is in a pretty ok state balance-wise. The upcoming changes after blizzcon will fine tune it more
I'm saying that design wise Protoss is the best rounded race in this game, and on the pro level it has upper hand over Zerg in few ways.
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Neebs gotta send christmas cards to Blizzard thanking them for WCS.
Sure he'll get his wake up call at Blizzcon but then he'll think of the money of 2018 WCS waiting for him to collecr and he'll be fine.
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On September 13 2017 14:23 papaz wrote:
Neebs gotta send christmas cards to Blizzard thanking them for WCS.
Sure he'll get his wake up call at Blizzcon but then he'll think of the money of 2018 WCS waiting for him to collecr and he'll be fine.
In this internet age it is always easy to undermine someone's achievements because you were never at that person's side seeing all the effort and hardwork that he has put in.
As to challenging the Koreans and winning against them Neeb has the potential. He is only 19 yrs old so he can still raise his level of play. Let us just watch and enjoy how this will play out.
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On September 11 2017 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament. I agree with you, this region lock is stupid and I don't like it. The rule is indeed used differently than in most other sports however there are a lot of "similar" yet not identical rules of nationality. Lots of tournaments are layered around where you live, american ones, european ones and in each individual country there are Leagues for players of the same nationality. The rules are as I said used differently and the example in SC2 is worse that is true.
You are wrong. It is actually opposite, it is harder find an international tournamet that is completely open for anyone:
-All national and regional championships.
-Most international championships have a limited number of participants from each country, often locking out top athletes with the wrong passport.
-Events like the FIFA world cup has regional qualification, ensuring global representation rather than the best teams.
-Cups like Champions league also have a country-based system. Does the Norwegian no. 1 team really deserve a shot over Spain's number 7?
I am not sure, but I believe some individual sports like tennis and chess actually allow a flood of top performers from one country, but that is NOT the norm!
I actually liked the first WCS, which used a nationality based system, and it created a great deal og buzz! Too bad it happened in the immo/sentry all in vs BL Infestor era, with 3 Korean protosses eventually deathballing eachother with razor-thin forge timings in the top 3.
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Neeb is surely top5 in world right now.
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On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now.
Sure, and Hurricane is the GOAT, you can't disagree I think.
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On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now.
Stats, Inno, Dark, Neeb...
Sounds about right... + Show Spoiler +
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On September 14 2017 06:16 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. Stats, Inno, Dark, Neeb... Sounds about right... + Show Spoiler +
One of these is not like the others
Neeb is a fantastic player, don't get me wrong, but there's absolutely no way he's among the Top 5 if you include Koreans. Not even close.
INnoVation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, and TY would probably be my pick for the top 5, but I would also put Classic, herO, Dear, ByuN, Maru, Gumiho, soO, and Solar above Neeb. Basically all the top-tier Koreans.
Unless of course you meant "World" in the sense of "GSL vs the World," which is to say foreigner world. Neeb is far and away #1 in the foreign scene right now. But if you were including Korea, comparing a guy who failed to qualify for GSL with a legion of GSL champions is just....no.
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That might be subjective. Stats and Gumiho did lose to Iasonu. I have a tough time imagining Neeb losing to him.
I simply do not know how to rate Neeb (Blizzcon will tell more). Personally I would find it plausible if he would be Top 5 right now, but also agree with you that he probably is not. I believe 3/4 WCS is more difficult than many people here give credit for even if it is only "foreigners".
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On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now.
Except he isn't. He isn't even top 20.
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On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now.
I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure.
I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps.
But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss.
And no, Blizzcon does not tell the actual level of a player. You need multiples interaction between players to be able to rank them. As was said previously, Stats and Gumiho lost to Iasonu. Noone in their right mind would put Iasonu ahead of them, because one match even BO7 isn't enough.
Inno is probably the undisputed top 1 player, but he is still losing BO against lesser (and sometimes much lesser) players.
Like in every sport, everything is possible in one match, but only the long run is telling something.
Yes Neeb didn't qualified for GSL, but Scarlett and Major did, and Neeb showed to be way above them.
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As for his performance, it was definitely Code S level. Probably ro 16.
An argument could be made that he is top 5 Protoss. Stats, herO, Dear, Classic, Neeb/sOs is the argument I think.
I can't think of any other P that can go toe to toe with TY.
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On September 14 2017 19:29 LDaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure. I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps. But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss. And no, Blizzcon does not tell the actual level of a player. You need multiples interaction between players to be able to rank them. As was said previously, Stats and Gumiho lost to Iasonu. Noone in their right mind would put Iasonu ahead of them, because one match even BO7 isn't enough. Inno is probably the undisputed top 1 player, but he is still losing BO against lesser (and sometimes much lesser) players. Like in every sport, everything is possible in one match, but only the long run is telling something. Yes Neeb didn't qualified for GSL, but Scarlett and Major did, and Neeb showed to be way above them.
Neeb's run at Montreal was very impressive but not unprecedented since all his opponents were foreigners. Both Maru and TY made similar runs at WESG, with TY dropping a few maps to foreigners and Maru dropping zero (he lost 4 to TY though).
Neeb outclasses almost all of the foreign scene by a huge margin. Beating the crap out of foreigners like Scarlett, True, and Snute is cool but not all that amazing. Compare his run to Inno's at GSL vs the World, which was 14-1 over guys like ByuN, Stats, and TY.
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QUOTE]On September 14 2017 18:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now.
Except he isn't. He isn't even top 20.
[/QUOTE]
I'm just going to list the top 20 by aligulac minus TRUE cause he's not a Korean Korean anymore (which I know is flawed)
INnoVation
Byun
GuMiho
Dark
Ty
Maru
Solar
Rogue
herO
soO
Byul
Stats
Classic
Zest
Bunny
Impact
Dear
sOs
Ryung
Hurricane
I think that Neeb is easily able to fit into the top 20 if not the top 15. He's definitely better than Hurricane (despite losing twice to him), he's probably better than Ryung, Impact, potentially Bunny, probably Zest (I mean Zest has't really impressed me this year), he could go even against soO (I mean Showtime went nearly even with soO).
So....I can see why Neeb is not in the top 10 World, but you'd have a very tough time convincing most people that he's not in the top 20 world.
On September 15 2017 01:03 pvsnp wrote:
[
Neeb's run at Montreal was very impressive but not unprecedented since all his opponents were foreigners. Both Maru and TY made similar runs at WESG, with TY dropping a few maps to foreigners and Maru dropping zero (he lost 4 to TY though).
Neeb outclasses almost all of the foreign scene by a huge margin. Beating the crap out of foreigners like Scarlett, True, and Snute is cool but not all that amazing. Compare his run to Inno's at GSL vs the World, which was 14-1 over guys like ByuN, Stats, and TY.
Side note, TRUE is a Korean...but yeah,
Also of note is that Neeb made a similar run through WESG (losing to TY) and ending up 3rd. When I compare his run in Montreal to that of Inno in the GSL vs the World, I note that Stats weakest matchup by far is his PvT with only around a 58% winrate this year. I also note that TvT is TY's weakest matchup in this year with only around a 52% winrate this year. Byun's is strong with a 62% (or so) winrate in the matchup. Inno himself has a 66% TvP and 61% TvT.
So, I wouldn't actually think that high of Inno's run. Yes, he beat top Korean players, which automatically ranks his run above Neeb's, but he did so against a player with pretty crappy PvT (Stats) and a player with pretty crappy TvT (TY). So was his run really all that impressive? I wouldn't really say so. He beater stronger players than Neeb, but it wasn't all that impressive for me personally.
For reference, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute had ZvPs ranging from (62%-65%) while Neeb possesses a staggering 75% winrate this year in the matchup (granted most of the Korean Zergs he's faced are named TRUE, but he has beaten Leenock and Solar on occasion as well). So the relative strength of players that Neeb faced were generally stronger in the matchup than the relative strength of the players that Inno faced.
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On September 14 2017 19:29 LDaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure. I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps.But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss.
Litterally the other week Inno went though IAsonu, ByuN, Stats, and TY only dropping one map. Neeb did the same map score but against Soul, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute. I like Neeb but what Inno did was far more impressive
You can argue Neeb above Zest any day. Wouldn't say Maru though, he gets deep in the GSL (almost) every time, and always ends up in the middle area of SSL Premier. Plus he got to the finals WeSG without losing a map as well (with absolute ez btw, not a single map was close), which is basically a WCS circuit level run.
tbh any high level korean terran (inno, ty, maru, byun, gumi etc) should probably stomp Neeb in a full series. Neeb trades evenly with majOr quite consistantly, who's litterally just a slightly worse version of TY
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On September 15 2017 02:25 FrkFrJss wrote:
Side note, TRUE is a Korean...but yeah,
Also of note is that Neeb made a similar run through WESG (losing to TY) and ending up 3rd. When I compare his run in Montreal to that of Inno in the GSL vs the World, I note that Stats weakest matchup by far is his PvT with only around a 58% winrate this year. I also note that TvT is TY's weakest matchup in this year with only around a 52% winrate this year. Byun's is strong with a 62% (or so) winrate in the matchup. Inno himself has a 66% TvP and 61% TvT.
So, I wouldn't actually think that high of Inno's run. Yes, he beat top Korean players, which automatically ranks his run above Neeb's, but he did so against a player with pretty crappy PvT (Stats) and a player with pretty crappy TvT (TY). So was his run really all that impressive? I wouldn't really say so. He beater stronger players than Neeb, but it wasn't all that impressive for me personally.
For reference, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute had ZvPs ranging from (62%-65%) while Neeb possesses a staggering 75% winrate this year in the matchup (granted most of the Korean Zergs he's faced are named TRUE, but he has beaten Leenock and Solar on occasion as well). So the relative strength of players that Neeb faced were generally stronger in the matchup than the relative strength of the players that Inno faced.
This is where blindly reading aligulac goes wrong
Stats' PvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. And TY's TvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. By a fucking mile as well
You can't compare winrates of playing in different regions against different players, and say some are equivalent like that. Neeb litterally beat Code A/Code S ro32 players. Inno beat the champions
(Also TIL beating ByuN, Stats, and TY with absolute ease isn't that impressive)
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Man, all those annoying fanboys that think he's a top 5 player or so make me want to watch him get crushed at Blizzcon.
Unfortunate since it's not his fault that he gets overhyped and he's a great dude but it is what it is.
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On September 15 2017 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:
Man, all those annoying fanboys that think he's a top 5 player or so make me want to watch him get crushed at Blizzcon.
Unfortunate since it's not his fault that he gets overhyped and he's a great dude but it is what it is.
I used to think Byun fanboys were the worst but Neeb fanboys have forced me to reconsider.
Neeb himself seems like such a great guy too, humble and hardworking. It's his rabid fanboys that are racist or nationalist or blindly fanatical, or all three. Not all of his fans are that bad, but it certainly seems like a very vocal minority.
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Awesome games! Congrats Neeb, check out what they said at the blizzcon Preview:
clips.twitch.tv
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On September 15 2017 03:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 02:25 FrkFrJss wrote:
Side note, TRUE is a Korean...but yeah,
Also of note is that Neeb made a similar run through WESG (losing to TY) and ending up 3rd. When I compare his run in Montreal to that of Inno in the GSL vs the World, I note that Stats weakest matchup by far is his PvT with only around a 58% winrate this year. I also note that TvT is TY's weakest matchup in this year with only around a 52% winrate this year. Byun's is strong with a 62% (or so) winrate in the matchup. Inno himself has a 66% TvP and 61% TvT.
So, I wouldn't actually think that high of Inno's run. Yes, he beat top Korean players, which automatically ranks his run above Neeb's, but he did so against a player with pretty crappy PvT (Stats) and a player with pretty crappy TvT (TY). So was his run really all that impressive? I wouldn't really say so. He beater stronger players than Neeb, but it wasn't all that impressive for me personally.
For reference, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute had ZvPs ranging from (62%-65%) while Neeb possesses a staggering 75% winrate this year in the matchup (granted most of the Korean Zergs he's faced are named TRUE, but he has beaten Leenock and Solar on occasion as well). So the relative strength of players that Neeb faced were generally stronger in the matchup than the relative strength of the players that Inno faced.
This is where blindly reading aligulac goes wrong Stats' PvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. And TY's TvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. By a fucking mile as well You can't compare winrates of playing in different regions against different players, and say some are equivalent like that. Neeb litterally beat Code A/Code S ro32 players. Inno beat the champions (Also TIL beating ByuN, Stats, and TY with absolute ease isn't that impressive)
See, that's where I'm not blindly reading aligulac.
Actually, you were the first one to compare people cross region.
What I said was that in 2017 up to now, Snute, Scarlett, and TRUE's ZvP ranged from 62%-65%, and Neeb's PvZ was 73% this year.
This is all within the foreign region to gain a sense of the relative strength of the people within it. So regardless of who the person played, I am looking at how strong in that region the people that Neeb played were.
Similarly, I am doing the same thing with Innovation, Stats, Byun, and TY.
And within the region, regardless of how they stack up against foreign players, TY's TvT is not very good, and Stats' PvT is not very good either. I'm not talking about comparing Stats' PvT with Snute, Scarlett, or TRUE's ZvP...which, by the way, are two different matchups and thus not really comparable.
So within the WCS Korea region, Inno beat two players who were bad in the vT matchup, and one player who was good in said matchup.
And within the WCS Global region, Neeb beat three players who were good in the vP matchup.
Ergo, I rate Neeb's win as more impressive because the players he beat relative to that region were strong in the vP matchup.
And no, I wouldn't rate Inno's win versus those players as that impressive (like not super impressive). Because he was strong in that matchup and 2 out of 3 were not strong in that matchup.
If Neeb beat like TLO, Zanster, and Jonsnow, I wouldn't rate that as impressive because their relative strength in the region is not very high,
So you cannot compare cross-region, but you can certainly compare within a region.
For instance, it's like comparing the relative strength of a person in a particular field by age bracket. Say in the World Juniors....of anything versus the World Championship of the same sport, you can say that a person is very dominant as a World Junior even if he/she would not be dominant in the World Championship circuit. So it doesn't matter that a person from the World Championship could dominate in the World Juniors, but it is merely comparing how strong a winner in the World Junior event is to his or her peers and how strong a World Championship winner is to his her peers.
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Again, blindly reading aligulac isn't a perfect analysis, winrates aren't everything. Players play against different opponents, some more than others. For example, is ByuN should be one of the best korean players because his winrates are always so high right? Not even close. It's easy to play in tons of events and inflate your win%. Whereas someone like TY almost exclusively plays in big money tournaments against the hardest opponents. Even if he has a 50-60% winrates that's damn good.
Anyway, so your point is that Inno had a better chance at beating Stats, ByuN, and TY, than Neeb did at beating Scarlett, Snute, and True? Seriously? Stats and TY have eliminated Inno from tournaments this year lol.
Litterally no one thought that scarlett, true, or snute had a chance against Neeb. He's levels above any of them. Snute, Scarlett, and True have all performed okay in their regions, but nothing special. Stats and TY are champions
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I fail to understand how being a big fish in a small pond is somehow more impressive than being a shark in the ocean.
To use your metaphor, Neeb thrashed the JV team and Inno pummeled the varsity. According to you, Inno's accomplishment is less impressive because the rest of the varsity team was weak relative to himself? Doesn't that just put him even higher?
So something like (not to scale):
Inno
....
....
Koreans
.....
Neeb
.....
Foreigners
somehow means that Neeb is more impressive than Inno 
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On September 15 2017 04:01 Fango wrote:
Again, blindly reading aligulac isn't a perfect analysis, winrates aren't everything. Players play against different opponents, some more than others. For example, is ByuN should be one of the best korean players because his winrates are always so high right? Not even close. It's easy to play in tons of events and inflate your win%. Whereas someone like TY almost exclusively plays in big money tournaments against the hardest opponents. Even if he has a 50-60% winrates that's damn good.
Anyway, so your point is that Inno had a better chance at beating Stats, ByuN, and TY, than Neeb did at beating Scarlett, Snute, and True? Seriously? Stats and TY have eliminated Inno from tournaments this year lol.
Litterally no one thought that scarlett, true, or snute had a chance against Neeb. He's levels above any of them. Snute, Scarlett, and True have all performed okay in their regions, but nothing special. Stats and TY are champions
Actually...TY has not eliminated Inno from a tournament this year, and they haven't really played each other much this year. As for Stats, it's been back and forth this year, but Inno has a bit better winrate.
As for Byun, I would say that he is one of the best Korean players. His weakest matchup is against Terran, with his other matchups being far ahead.
GSL 1
Ro32, lost 1-2 to Stats, lost 1-2 to Ryung
GSL 2
ro8, lost 1-3 to Maru
GSL 3
ro8, lost 2-3 to Inno
The other matches he's lost this have been to a combination of Protoss and Terran in the SSL Premier league, but he has been playing really well in SSL Challenge Season 2, and his only match loss in Challenge Season 2 was to Bunny, who is another TvT.
And the other losses were to Dark in the Afreeca ST, Rogue in Shanghai, Stats in Katowice. So while he has not performed amazingly well this year, he's mainly been held back by TvT.
So I looked at the offline matches, and both Byun and TY have fairly similar offline winrates (59% versus 55%), and the primary difference both in WCS points and tournaments is that TY won against Maru in WESG, and TY won against Stats in the IEM World Championships. But aside from from that, they've both been similarly consistent in SSL and in the GSL with the exception that TY had one more ro8 finish than Byun.
So even though on head to head, Innovation was not overly favoured against TY, Byun, and Stats, based on his historical form in 2017 and their historical form in 2017, I would have given him higher odds of winning than losing.
So I realize that someone's historical form does not necessarily give them an advantage against another opponent, but I think it is valuable for determining "how good is this player in general against another race," and seeing as it was a short tournament, and not as huge of a preparation one, that gives Inno the edge as he is in general better at TvT.
And for Snute, TRUE, and Scarlett, Scarlett had evenly traded series against, and had a fairly decent historical winrate. As for Snute, I think it is rather unfair to say that Neeb is levels above Snute. Neeb is definitely better than Snute, but Snute has done well against Neeb this year, and Snute has had generally good ZvP.
On September 15 2017 04:20 pvsnp wrote:I fail to understand how being a big fish in a small pond is somehow more impressive than being a shark in the ocean. To use your metaphor, Neeb thrashed the JV team and Inno pummeled the varsity. According to you, Inno's accomplishment is less impressive because the rest of the varsity team was weak relative to himself? Doesn't that just put him even higher? So something like (not to scale): Inno .... .... Koreans ..... Neeb ..... Foreigners somehow means that Neeb is more impressive than Inno
Actually, that model is a good representation of how I felt with regards to those tournaments.
If Inno is 3 levels above the Koreans he was facing, and Neeb was 2 levels above the foreigners that he was playing, that means that the degree to which Neeb was better than the foreigners is less than than the degree at which Inno was better than his opponents.
So if Inno is 100, then the people he was facing was at 40.
Whereas If Neeb was at 100, then the people he was facing was at 60.
Thus the difference is 60 for Inno and 40 for Neeb. Even though Neeb was the favourite to win it, I don't think anyone realistically predicted him losing just two maps in the entire tournament.
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Blizzard banning Koreans from tournaments dealt a mortal blow to the Korean scene and shortly after we saw KeSPA disband and a huge wave of retirements. After this Blizzcon I have a feeling you will see many of the top Korean players retire.
Maybe one day Neeb can be king of the ashes, but to me he will never approach Stephano as the best foreigner, who did it during a time the scene was still striving and players still had hope.
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Scarlett/True/Snute have done nothing special this year, they aren't even considered up there with the best foreigners. Stats and TY are champions. Stats just beat Inno is SSL, and beat him in GSL a couple seasons back. TY also beat Inno last season in GSL btw. The idea that the skill difference between Stats/TY and Inno, is somehow greater than between those zergs and Neeb is just ridiculous.
You realise Inno has simply won slightly more than Stats or TY this year this year. Whereas Neeb has won almost everything against the foreigners.
If you're judging their play in their relative regions (like you said), then comparing Scarlett, True, and Snute to Neeb. It's 0 wins to 3. He is miles ahead of any of them. Stats and TY are only slightly behind Inno, he's not "3 levels" ahead of them, he loses to both of them sometimes.
Inno>Stats and TY
Neeb>>>>>>>>>Scarlett, True, and Snute (it would be closer against Serral or Elazer or Special maybe)
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On September 15 2017 06:02 Bayaz90 wrote:
Blizzard banning Koreans from tournaments dealt a mortal blow to the Korean scene and shortly after we saw KeSPA disband and a huge wave of retirements. After this Blizzcon I have a feeling you will see many of the top Korean players retire.
Maybe one day Neeb can be king of the ashes, but to me he will never approach Stephano as the best foreigner, who did it during a time the scene was still striving and players still had hope.
Stephano actually won against the koreans that's the difference
Most koreans will wait to see the WCS system for next year, how many tournaments etc
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On September 15 2017 01:03 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2017 19:29 LDaVinci wrote:On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote:
Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure. I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps. But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss. And no, Blizzcon does not tell the actual level of a player. You need multiples interaction between players to be able to rank them. As was said previously, Stats and Gumiho lost to Iasonu. Noone in their right mind would put Iasonu ahead of them, because one match even BO7 isn't enough. Inno is probably the undisputed top 1 player, but he is still losing BO against lesser (and sometimes much lesser) players. Like in every sport, everything is possible in one match, but only the long run is telling something. Yes Neeb didn't qualified for GSL, but Scarlett and Major did, and Neeb showed to be way above them. Neeb's run at Montreal was very impressive but not unprecedented since all his opponents were foreigners. Both Maru and TY made similar runs at WESG, with TY dropping a few maps to foreigners and Maru dropping zero (he lost 4 to TY though). Neeb outclasses almost all of the foreign scene by a huge margin. Beating the crap out of foreigners like Scarlett, True, and Snute is cool but not all that amazing. Compare his run to Inno's at GSL vs the World, which was 14-1 over guys like ByuN, Stats, and TY.
This is where you misunderstand me and where you are blinded by your own convictions.
I'm not saying that Neeb is better than Maru accross SC2. I would rank Maru above him in a best players of all time. I'm saying, right now, I'm not so sure he is better.
As for the run, sure, mainly foreigners, but the foreign level has never been that high. Sure it has precedent, I don't denie. But still the performance is probably top five world, includin Koreans. Not a lot of them would have lost only two maps.
And for other arguments I read, the statement that Neeb is probably top 20 world, top 5 protoss has nothing to do with being a fanboy, cause I'm really not. I would be a Stephano fanboy anyday though. I just hate the argument of "Neeb isn't korean therefore he is a lesser player than average korean masters". It doesn't make sens. There is no comparison point because clause to no games between koreans and foreigners. Blizzcon alone isn't a good indicator, whether he loses first game or win the final.
He could lose to the top player and still being second or just having a bad day, or win it because of incredible form but not actually being the best player. Consitancy over several games, tournaments, and statistics are the only relevant indicator.
Unless next year we have 10 global tournaments, there is no way we can compare players. Sure average foreign pros are likely to be lesser players than low tier koreans. But ranking Neeb, Scarlett, Major, Snute, Nerchio, Elazer, Showtime and Serral (and I prob forgot 1 or 2) as low korean level just because they are foreigner is brutal and not based on any reasoning. I wouldn't think those players are all top 20. but who are you ranking above them ? Jjakji ? Creator ? hurricane ?
I'm just saying, putting them all out of the top 20 like some korean fanboys are doing is absurd cause there is no comparison point. I don't think any korean less than top 5 would have made Neebs run, and maybe none would have win 3 WCS like he did. A bad game is fast to happen especially against the top foreigners who all showed they were able to take games and series to top koreans.
Adding to that Neeb did win a korean tournament at a time where it seemed impossible. And still Charoisaur is considering putting him only in top 100 korea (I mean between 80-100)
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On September 15 2017 17:33 LDaVinci wrote:
But ranking Neeb, Scarlett, Major, Snute, Nerchio, Elazer, Showtime and Serral (and I prob forgot 1 or 2) as low korean level just because they are foreigner is brutal and not based on any reasoning. I wouldn't think those players are all top 20. but who are you ranking above them ? Jjakji ? Creator ? hurricane ?
Daily reminder tha Hurricane beat Neeb twice to qualify for Code S.
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On September 15 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 17:33 LDaVinci wrote:
But ranking Neeb, Scarlett, Major, Snute, Nerchio, Elazer, Showtime and Serral (and I prob forgot 1 or 2) as low korean level just because they are foreigner is brutal and not based on any reasoning. I wouldn't think those players are all top 20. but who are you ranking above them ? Jjakji ? Creator ? hurricane ?
Daily reminder tha Hurricane beat Neeb twice to qualify for Code S.
Yeah because that's how you rank people, by only looking at two times they met. So you purposely ignored my full post, saying that a serie doesn't mean anything. I don't know if you watch soccer, but it is not uncommon for much lesser teams to beat top level teams. Does it mean they are better, I wouldn't say so. It just means that day they performed better. Often you can see middle tier teams reaching quarter finals or Ro16 of European soccer competition. Doesn't mean anything if in the same time they aren't able to erform in their own championship.
Same for SC2 players. Ranking people has to be based on statistics not just one or two games. Or else you would put Iasonu above Inno because of that one time he won against him...
In that regard, I would put Neeb way above hurricane. But that is only speculation, as I said previously because there is a lack of interaction between the two regions. It is actually impossible to rank accurately the players. We can have some ideas. Yes top five is probably owned by only koreans. but I wouldn't bet on that for top 20.
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Neeb is now probably the best foreigner of all time?
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On September 15 2017 18:06 LDaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:On September 15 2017 17:33 LDaVinci wrote:
But ranking Neeb, Scarlett, Major, Snute, Nerchio, Elazer, Showtime and Serral (and I prob forgot 1 or 2) as low korean level just because they are foreigner is brutal and not based on any reasoning. I wouldn't think those players are all top 20. but who are you ranking above them ? Jjakji ? Creator ? hurricane ?
Daily reminder tha Hurricane beat Neeb twice to qualify for Code S. Yeah because that's how you rank people, by only looking at two times they met
Well Hurricane also knocked Scarlett out of the same Code S.
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On September 15 2017 18:37 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 18:06 LDaVinci wrote:On September 15 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:On September 15 2017 17:33 LDaVinci wrote:
But ranking Neeb, Scarlett, Major, Snute, Nerchio, Elazer, Showtime and Serral (and I prob forgot 1 or 2) as low korean level just because they are foreigner is brutal and not based on any reasoning. I wouldn't think those players are all top 20. but who are you ranking above them ? Jjakji ? Creator ? hurricane ?
Daily reminder tha Hurricane beat Neeb twice to qualify for Code S. Yeah because that's how you rank people, by only looking at two times they met Well Hurricane also knocked Scarlett out of the same Code S.
He's the NA Curious.
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On September 15 2017 22:59 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 18:37 Ej_ wrote:On September 15 2017 18:06 LDaVinci wrote:On September 15 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:On September 15 2017 17:33 LDaVinci wrote:
But ranking Neeb, Scarlett, Major, Snute, Nerchio, Elazer, Showtime and Serral (and I prob forgot 1 or 2) as low korean level just because they are foreigner is brutal and not based on any reasoning. I wouldn't think those players are all top 20. but who are you ranking above them ? Jjakji ? Creator ? hurricane ?
Daily reminder tha Hurricane beat Neeb twice to qualify for Code S. Yeah because that's how you rank people, by only looking at two times they met Well Hurricane also knocked Scarlett out of the same Code S. He's the NA Curious.
Hurricane the Foreignslayer
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Poland3751 Posts
On September 15 2017 04:01 Fango wrote:
Again, blindly reading aligulac isn't a perfect analysis, winrates aren't everything. Players play against different opponents, some more than others. For example, is ByuN should be one of the best korean players because his winrates are always so high right? Not even close. It's easy to play in tons of events and inflate your win%. Whereas someone like TY almost exclusively plays in big money tournaments against the hardest opponents. Even if he has a 50-60% winrates that's damn good.
Anyway, so your point is that Inno had a better chance at beating Stats, ByuN, and TY, than Neeb did at beating Scarlett, Snute, and True? Seriously? Stats and TY have eliminated Inno from tournaments this year lol.
Litterally no one thought that scarlett, true, or snute had a chance against Neeb. He's levels above any of them. Snute, Scarlett, and True have all performed okay in their regions, but nothing special. Stats and TY are champions
That's not how it works, Aligulac rating is not winrates.
If you win against opponents with rating significantly lower than you, than it contributes to your ranking very little - but if you happen to loose to any of them it will contribute quite significantly.
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Poland3751 Posts
On September 15 2017 18:31 shell wrote:
Neeb is now probably the best foreigner of all time?
Are Federer/Nadal greater than Rod Laver?
Different eras, different challenges.
Probably most accomplished, though.
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On September 18 2017 04:04 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 04:01 Fango wrote:
Again, blindly reading aligulac isn't a perfect analysis, winrates aren't everything. Players play against different opponents, some more than others. For example, is ByuN should be one of the best korean players because his winrates are always so high right? Not even close. It's easy to play in tons of events and inflate your win%. Whereas someone like TY almost exclusively plays in big money tournaments against the hardest opponents. Even if he has a 50-60% winrates that's damn good.
Anyway, so your point is that Inno had a better chance at beating Stats, ByuN, and TY, than Neeb did at beating Scarlett, Snute, and True? Seriously? Stats and TY have eliminated Inno from tournaments this year lol.
Litterally no one thought that scarlett, true, or snute had a chance against Neeb. He's levels above any of them. Snute, Scarlett, and True have all performed okay in their regions, but nothing special. Stats and TY are champions That's not how it works, Aligulac rating is not winrates.If you win against opponents with rating significantly lower than you, than it contributes to your ranking very little - but if you happen to loose to any of them it will contribute quite significantly.
You misunderstand. The other guy was litterally using the winrates from aligulac, not the ratings. That's what I was refering to.
And the rating aligulac gives players isn't entirely accurate either, although it is decent at comparing play level in the same region.
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Poland3751 Posts
On September 18 2017 04:22 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 04:04 nimdil wrote:On September 15 2017 04:01 Fango wrote:
Again, blindly reading aligulac isn't a perfect analysis, winrates aren't everything. Players play against different opponents, some more than others. For example, is ByuN should be one of the best korean players because his winrates are always so high right? Not even close. It's easy to play in tons of events and inflate your win%. Whereas someone like TY almost exclusively plays in big money tournaments against the hardest opponents. Even if he has a 50-60% winrates that's damn good.
Anyway, so your point is that Inno had a better chance at beating Stats, ByuN, and TY, than Neeb did at beating Scarlett, Snute, and True? Seriously? Stats and TY have eliminated Inno from tournaments this year lol.
Litterally no one thought that scarlett, true, or snute had a chance against Neeb. He's levels above any of them. Snute, Scarlett, and True have all performed okay in their regions, but nothing special. Stats and TY are champions That's not how it works, Aligulac rating is not winrates.If you win against opponents with rating significantly lower than you, than it contributes to your ranking very little - but if you happen to loose to any of them it will contribute quite significantly. You misunderstand. The other guy was litterally using the winrates from aligulac, not the ratings. That's what I was refering to. And the rating aligulac gives players isn't entirely accurate either, although it is decent at comparing play level in the same region.
I stand corrected.
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EPT
2017 WCS Montreal
