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On September 12 2017 00:56 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:40 Raineeb wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple.  It's actually not that much money if you consider what he has to do. Constant traveling, not much free time(unless something changed in the past 2 years) etc. I wouldn't do it, but I don't like LotV, if you like LotV it's a great career choice. If you can make it :o) I stay with programming :o) Edit> I may consider watching Blizzcon actually. Would love to see Neeb vs. sOs there. That means if that happens, I love sOs crushing foreign prodigies :D
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2017_GSL_vs._the_World
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On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious
Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance.
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I mean, come on, when you complain about Koreans "getting money", just think about how much advantage they have when European and US players really do not have to worry about any visa issues whatsoever. Cyan forfeit 3 WCS circuits in a row this year. Being competitive is one thing, whether you are even allowed to participate is totally different.
BTW, I think the stimulation effect region lock gives to foreign players has clearly faded and the level of play in foreign scenes are clearly worse off than 2016. Cloudy was in WCS Valencia ro16, a player who cannot get minor highlights in domestic events. Of course there is a lot of luck in getting to the right group, but to me you are looking for "excuses" that are way too trivial. What is a bigger issue, forfeiting WCS Circuit 3 times in a row because of visa or the insufferable pain of having to live in South Korea for a while as a European or NA visa holder? Not to mention other real sufferings from some even worse countries.
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On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance.
But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it.
I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close.
So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people.
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On September 12 2017 04:55 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance. But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it. I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close. So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people.
Then we have some serious disputes on what kind of countries do count as third world. U really want to put the bar down to countries like Uganda?
You can say Cyan currently has no team or sponsor so he should be counted as amateur instead of pro player. Couldn't argue with that 
The problem is, the argument that Koreans are receiving "welfare" is just madness, and somebody even dare taking the expense of living in South Korea as a barrier? This is just crazy.
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On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt.
Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from????
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On September 12 2017 05:50 Mouriner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt. Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from????
It comes from not knowing the legacy that the word Bonjwa carries, and leniency in allowing this kind of shitposting to distort its real meaning.
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On September 12 2017 05:08 RedAlice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 04:55 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 12 2017 04:31 RedAlice wrote:On September 11 2017 18:42 aQuaSC wrote:On September 11 2017 18:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Oh please, the GSL tournaments have global qualifiers that anyone can enter. Literally anyone, any time. And I was here thinking that you need to live in Seoul to attempt to qualify to GSL, it's stated repeatedly that it's a big barrier for many people. You think it's not? Of course it technically changed with basetrade house being established, but you still need to be there for qualifiers/the duration of your tournament run. If there were online qualifiers for GSL like for Circuit events the best non-koreans would be there much more often, it's obvious Do you need some information in how many third world players forfeit WCS circuit for Visa issues alone？ Such a Western arrogance. But may I ask how many pro players from third world countries there are? In order to forfeit WCS circuit, they must first qualify, as I don't really consider signing up for the open bracket and then not showing up to be forfeiting it. I looked into the past two years of circuit competitions, and the people who forfeit because of visa issues were from China, Philippines, Kazakstan, Korea (violet), and Mexico. I would like to say that although some of these countries may not be the most stable or economically rich, none of these countries really qualify to be third-world countries, though Philippines may be close. So apparently, the number of people who forfeit their places in the WCS circuit for visa issues is 1 person. Maybe 2 people. Then we have some serious disputes on what kind of countries do count as third world. U really want to put the bar down to countries like Uganda? You can say Cyan currently has no team or sponsor so he should be counted as amateur instead of pro player. Couldn't argue with that The problem is, the argument that Koreans are receiving "welfare" is just madness, and somebody even dare taking the expense of living in South Korea as a barrier? This is just crazy.
I looked up the people who forfeited because of visa issues, and those are the countries I found. It's possible I missed one or two, but let's go through them.
China - Definitely not a third-world country...certain parts are poor, but overall, I think it is that bad.
Philippines - It's not a wealthy country, but it is a developing country, and it contributed one person's visa issues.
Korea - Not a third-world country at all, and violet did get his visa issues sorted later on.
Kazakhstan - A developing country, it isn't the wealthiest country by any means, but it is developing quickly. I wouldn't really consider this a third-world country.
So would you consider these countries to be third-world? And even if all except China are third-world countries, that makes it less than 5 people in two years who have forfeit their places because of visa issues. I really don't think that living in poorer countries is really the issue.
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For all the talk about Neeb being untouchable - I think Serral/Elazer can take him on. Serral already got 1 map close when they met in the finals, it's just unfortunate that they always get ZvZ'ed out.
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On September 12 2017 05:52 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:50 Mouriner wrote:On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt. Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from???? It comes from not knowing the legacy that the word Bonjwa carries, and leniency in allowing this kind of shitposting to distort its real meaning.
Not even any of the Koreans, not Mvp, not Life, and not Inno can be called a bonjwa. And every single one of them have been far more dominant in SC2 than Neeb ever has.
"Bonjwa" means something. It's not just a title to be tossed around for your favorite player who wins a couple weekend (and foreign at that) tournaments.
To put this into context, INnoVation made a 15-1 run over some of the best players in the world (ByuN, Stats, TY) at GSL vs the World to take the trophy. If and only if he managed to repeat that kind of complete dominance in both SSL and GSL, by which I mean dropping 1 map on the way to the first-ever double Starleague championship, and then repeated it again at Blizzcon, then we might, might, MIGHT have been able to call him a bonjwa.
Inno didn't do it. He made the GSL finals, but he also dropped out of SSL. He's a great player, one of the greatest, but he's not a bonjwa. Mvp and Life were also some of the greatest. Neither of them are a bonjwa.
Neeb is a great player. The best foreigner right now. Arguably the greatest foreigner ever. He is not one of the greatest. Calling Neeb a bonjwa, when he hasn't done anything near what that honor demands, is a gross insult to the title.
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On September 12 2017 06:29 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 05:52 207aicila wrote:On September 12 2017 05:50 Mouriner wrote:On September 12 2017 01:27 Veluvian wrote:
I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt. Really? Bonjwa? Where did this ideas come from???? It comes from not knowing the legacy that the word Bonjwa carries, and leniency in allowing this kind of shitposting to distort its real meaning. Not even any of the Koreans, not Mvp, not Life, and not Inno can be called a bonjwa. And every single one of them have been far more dominant in SC2 than Neeb ever has. "Bonjwa" means something. It's not just a title to be tossed around for your favorite player who wins a couple weekend (and foreign at that) tournaments. To put this into context, INnoVation made a 15-1 run over some of the best players in the world (ByuN, Stats, TY) at GSL vs the World to take the trophy. If and only if he managed to repeat that kind of complete dominance in both SSL and GSL, by which I mean dropping 1 map on the way to the first-ever double Starleague championship, and then repeated it again at Blizzcon, then we might, might, MIGHT have been able to call him a bonjwa. Inno didn't do it. He made the GSL finals, but he also dropped out of SSL. He's a great player, one of the greatest, but he's not a bonjwa. Mvp and Life were also some of the greatest. Neither of them are a bonjwa. Neeb is a great player. The best foreigner right now. Arguably the greatest foreigner ever. He is not one of the greatest. Calling Neeb a bonjwa, when he hasn't done anything near what that title demands, is a gross insult to the word.
I guess you could call him a bonjwa of the foreign scene.
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The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
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On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
Whether it has succeeded to increase viewer numbers is very arguable.
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19533 Posts
Bonjwas didn't win everything either btw, the whole term isn't somethign which needs protection.
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On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
I would very much agree with this.
It's similar to how some people like watching their race win, and they are less interested when the finals showcases people of different races. A PvP might be very exciting to some people, but for the Zerg and Terran fans, it might be less interesting.
So the region lock is about protecting the foreign professionals so that those storylines can be developed, because it's a little bit more difficult to form a storyline around people who only make it to the ro16.
For me, I would take HuK as an example. Over 2010-2012, he had a fantastic storyline of going from TL to EG and winning a number of high-level tournaments and playing in the GSL, but from 2013-2015 his storyline just sort of dropped off.
Or Stephano during his golden years of playing versus foreigners and Koreans and winning lots of tournaments. He had a very vibrant storyline from 2012-2013, but it just drops off after that. We don't hear much from him 2014-on, and except for the swarm host game versus Jaedong, he just fades away. Now, he has come back a little bit since then, but not in the same capacity.
So would Neeb's storyline be as big as it is now if he was still stuck in the ro16/ro8 losing to the top Koreans without the region lock? I don't think it would be as big.
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On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened.
no because obviously GSL is the top tier of skill and any foreigner going to korea gets stomp smashed immediately in the group stages duh. and obviously it has to be offline, or it'd be like the first sc2 TSL where foreigners managed to beat MVP and Nestea
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On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have  next to every name.
No one's denying that Neeb won a tournament, or that he's the best foreigner. People were saying that he won a tournament that lacked the best players in it. And that he wouldn't have won if every player was allowed in regardless of origin
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also the region locking took a daed game and made it even more daed. nobody cares about foreign only tourneys. back in the golden age of NASL, MLG, and IPL it was exciting to see foreigners beating koreans. neeb is legit good because he beat koreans multiple times in high stakes games. now who cares? just a bunch of foreigners fighting each other boring.
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United States1960 Posts
On September 12 2017 06:50 Corvuuss wrote:
The real reason Region lock exists is because it gets blizzard better viewership (yes I know the Game was bigger before the region lock but the RL being the reason is unlikely).
The majority of the people watching sc2 is somewhat casual, which means they don't care about raw skill BUT the story lines and the emotions of players.
I recently read an article about a tennis player (thiem) a young Austrian player who beats the best, but no one in the crowd had cheered for him in the recent US open. Now when I read about him further in the article I noticed something strange. A striking resemblance to the "faceless korean" stereotype: strickt training regime, boring interviews with the same answers he always gives: ("sorry for bad games I will try to do better next time" for example), showing almost no emotion either if he wins or loses.
The point I am trying to make is, only really invested fans watch for raw talent or abilities in any competition, so it is clear that blizzard wants to be able to show more of the story lines. (now there are a few notable exceptions to the "faceless Korean" Mc for example)
Read stuff like this and you'll realize that the whole faceless Korean thing is the biggest crock of bullshit ever to grace StarCraft 2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/524350-eo-yun-soo
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EPT
