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On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament.
I agree with you, this region lock is stupid and I don't like it. The rule is indeed used differently than in most other sports however there are a lot of "similar" yet not identical rules of nationality. Lots of tournaments are layered around where you live, american ones, european ones and in each individual country there are Leagues for players of the same nationality. The rules are as I said used differently and the example in SC2 is worse that is true.
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ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have  next to every name.
On topic, congrats to Neeb. A hell of a showcase. That finals was so completely one-sided, just a PvZ clinic. He looked flawless. Me, my buddies, and those sitting around us at the venue were all just laughing and in awe as to how he was playing and his dominance over the foreign scene. 3 WCS titles is freaking incredible, and I'm extremely excited to see this form go into Blizzcon, given he has more offline experience and seems really confident.
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On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name.
Nice logical extreme buddy.
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Maybe you should region lock INnoVation out of GSL after his super tournament run too.
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On September 11 2017 23:32 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name. Nice logical extreme buddy.
By the extreme nature of this thread and the hostility towards the WCS Circuit, its not that far off.
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Situation is similar in table tennis with the Chinese. Therefore they limited olympic and world championship participants/country. Obviously it affects all the countries, so its technicly "fair" but, it was implemented to exclude second line chinese players who still could be the rest of the world.
The organizers want global diversity not dominance.
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On September 11 2017 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:49 sd_andeh wrote:On September 11 2017 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 11 2017 19:28 ParksonVN wrote:On September 11 2017 17:28 Clevername02 wrote:On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. Do you consider the GSL to be Korean Welfare? Why do Koreans have to have their own tournament that has an offline qualifier and that spans several months making it absurdly difficult for non Koreans to participate in it? If the GSL were modified to make it easier for non-Koreans to participate then they could allow Koreans into the WCS Circuit. I'm sure you have some justification though for why its okay for Koreans to get 9 tournaments this year with either offline qualifiers in Korea or online qualifiers on the Korean server. But clearly the problem is that non-Koreans got to have 4 measly tournaments just for them. Clearly that is just terrible that that happened. We have been talking for ages about the region-locked problem. You can call GSL, SSL, VSL Korean welfare if they ban non-Korean and if they didn't, which is the case, the non-Korean would come and win all the Korean trophies. On other hand, if pretty sure if guys like InnoVation, Dark, TY, Stats, herO ... were allowed to freely participate in all the WCS Circuit, they would win all the titles, that's why we call it WCS wellfare. Do you call junior Leagues or junior Championships for underage welfare or female soccer tournaments for womens welfare? No I thought not, don't be stupid. Any tournament organizer is allowed to set whatever rules it wants according to who may or may not get to participate, that does not mean its welfare. Don't use words which meaning you don't know. I don't know of a single sports tournament that specifically bans people of a specific origin. Because that would be racist. But apparently in StarCraft it's okay to ban people for the sole reason of them being koreans. I'd like to see the FIFA World Cup ban Germany for the sole reason that they're german. "Germans are too good at soccer to be allowed to compete outside of Germany! It makes it less fun for the spectators and the rest of the soccer players don't feel inclined to practice because they will never reach the german level, we have to ban them." Skill should never be a reason to exclude someone from a tournament. I agree with you, this region lock is stupid and I don't like it. The rule is indeed used differently than in most other sports however there are a lot of "similar" yet not identical rules of nationality. Lots of tournaments are layered around where you live, american ones, european ones and in each individual country there are Leagues for players of the same nationality. The rules are as I said used differently and the example in SC2 is worse that is true.
Which is fine, as long as the same rule applies to every country. Having US-only tournaments or Swedish-only tournaments is perfectly fine and only normal. You wouldn't see swedish teams in the german Bundesliga. But if you saw french, italian, spanish and polish teams in the british Premier League with only german teams being banned, that would have been an issue to the world. When that rule only applies to a single country because its inhabitants are too good at what they do, then there's a problem.
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19533 Posts
I think both extremes are so off though. Ask yourself why koreans are usually better, it's not only because of them being more dedicated. BW built an esports infrastructure in that country and everyone who came after made use of that. That's good for korea but it obviously gives the players a huge advantage.
At the same time blizzard forced korea to switch to sc2 basically, a game most of these players didn't even choose to play initially.
Foreigners switched to sc2 because globally it was a real chance for them. If now countless of koreans simply come over and win tournament after tournament it's obviously hard to havea foreign scene. Some of you say "well koreans are more skilled so they deserve it". Sure but this kinda drops all of the context though. People saying koreans are banned because they are koreans (racist!!11) miss the point. People saying why do koreans deserve GSL/SSL/whatever miss the point as well.
I don't think the current situation is bad, we have tournaments for people who didn't have the chance to profit off the korean infratsructure and we have a decent tournament scene for all the korean players who had to switch to sc2 despite the game not being successful in korea.
Obviously on whatever side you are you wanna max out the opportunities of it. Sure i get that but what exactly is so bad about the current situation? Both sides can be more or less happy with it tbh.
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Is Neeb the foreign GOAT?
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On September 11 2017 18:00 Vindicare605 wrote:
So how long before we region lock Neeb? His dominance this year has been Stephano like, it almost doesn't seem fair anymore to keep putting him in the WCS tournaments when he's such an obvious favorite all of the time.
Wahhhhh. How about everyone else gets better and actually challenges him?
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On September 12 2017 00:01 Bagration wrote:
Is Neeb the foreign GOAT?
Id say Neeb is the foreigner GOAT in the WCS era, Stephano is the foreigner GOAT pre-WCS.
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On September 11 2017 23:41 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 23:32 207aicila wrote:On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name. Nice logical extreme buddy. By the extreme nature of this thread and the hostility towards the WCS Circuit, its not that far off.
There has still yet to be a single, sound argument against Koreans being allowed to play in international tournaments. Only "muh faceless Koreans" and other disgusting, bordering on racist bullshit from people who don't actually care about the game but only about the drama and ""storylines"".
And when I say sound argument, I mean something that does not spit in the face of meritocracy and competition on a fundamental level.
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On September 12 2017 00:06 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 23:41 vult wrote:On September 11 2017 23:32 207aicila wrote:On September 11 2017 23:26 vult wrote:ITT: A tournament isn't a tournament if it doesn't have next to every name. Nice logical extreme buddy. By the extreme nature of this thread and the hostility towards the WCS Circuit, its not that far off. There has still yet to be a single, sound argument against Koreans being allowed to play in international tournaments. Only "muh faceless Koreans" and other disgusting, bordering on racist bullshit from people who don't actually care about the game but only about the drama and ""storylines"". And when I say sound argument, I mean something that does not spit in the face of meritocracy and competition on a fundamental level.
Koreans are allowed to play if they reside in a region supported by the WCS Circuit. Koreans, for the most part, don't want to leave Korea or their current training environment to take part in the circuit. By doing so, they are eligible to take part in GSL/SSL/other Korean leagues, as well as online leagues like everyone else. The situation is a double edged-sword however you look at it, but Blizzard is trying to accommodate all parties involved without completely alienating one specific group.
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United States97277 Posts
On September 11 2017 23:35 Ej_ wrote:
Maybe you should region lock INnoVation out of GSL after his super tournament run too.
yeah next year
WCS Innovation vs other AI, WCS Korea, WCS Neeb, WCS World
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On September 12 2017 00:01 Bagration wrote:
Is Neeb the foreign GOAT?
It's getting harder and harder to aurgue that he isn't. Three championships in a single year is pretty incredible.
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On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb.
You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple. 
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On September 12 2017 00:40 Raineeb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 16:45 Mun_Su wrote:
Wcs welfare are bringing so much money to Neeb. You should become a progamer and do what Neeb did if you think it's that simple.
It's actually not that much money if you consider what he has to do. Constant traveling, not much free time(unless something changed in the past 2 years) etc.
I wouldn't do it, but I don't like LotV, if you like LotV it's a great career choice. If you can make it :o)
I stay with programming :o)
Edit> I may consider watching Blizzcon actually. Would love to see Neeb vs. sOs there. That means if that happens, I love sOs crushing foreign prodigies :D
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I'm curious to see his progress in Blizzcon. Neeb is killometers ahead than anyone nonkorean right now, just like Nestea was back in 2011. Well, Neeb definitely knows how to beat korean pro's. I didn't see anyone else so confident after Naniwa's GSL performance. So, winning Kespa Cup is great, but still he hasn't shown such a dominance against the very top of the world. In this case it doesn't matter who is the best, but who will keep his top shape until the beginning of November.
But if Neeb takes Blizzcon he would be really entitled Bonjwa with no doubt.
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damn Neeb, he's so good. Hope he kicks ass at Blizzcon this year.
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On September 11 2017 23:35 Ej_ wrote:
Maybe you should region lock INnoVation out of GSL after his super tournament run too.
??
aLive swept Inno 3-0 in the very first round of Super Tournament #1, Super Tournament #2 hasn't happened yet.
On topic, Neeb is looking really dominant in the foreign scene, but the top Koreans are definitely still favored against him. He is in fantastic form, and he's definitely the best foreigner heading to Blizzcon, but the Neeb fanboys will overhype him under any circumstances.
It's the same story as last year, the Neeb hype train building steam until Dark stepped in to put a sudden end to it all. No doubt the same thing will happen again this year. Neeb might be able to make a deep run at Blizzcon, but sooner or later the Koreans will have their say (and their way).
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EPT
