EPTNeeb wins WCS Montreal, dropping only 2 maps - Page 8
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FataLe
New Zealand4517 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
Sure he'll get his wake up call at Blizzcon but then he'll think of the money of 2018 WCS waiting for him to collecr and he'll be fine. | ||
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Raineeb
Philippines39 Posts
On September 13 2017 14:23 papaz wrote: Neebs gotta send christmas cards to Blizzard thanking them for WCS. Sure he'll get his wake up call at Blizzcon but then he'll think of the money of 2018 WCS waiting for him to collecr and he'll be fine. In this internet age it is always easy to undermine someone's achievements because you were never at that person's side seeing all the effort and hardwork that he has put in. As to challenging the Koreans and winning against them Neeb has the potential. He is only 19 yrs old so he can still raise his level of play. Let us just watch and enjoy how this will play out. | ||
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Slydie
1927 Posts
On September 11 2017 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote: I agree with you, this region lock is stupid and I don't like it. The rule is indeed used differently than in most other sports however there are a lot of "similar" yet not identical rules of nationality. Lots of tournaments are layered around where you live, american ones, european ones and in each individual country there are Leagues for players of the same nationality. The rules are as I said used differently and the example in SC2 is worse that is true. You are wrong. It is actually opposite, it is harder find an international tournamet that is completely open for anyone: -All national and regional championships. -Most international championships have a limited number of participants from each country, often locking out top athletes with the wrong passport. -Events like the FIFA world cup has regional qualification, ensuring global representation rather than the best teams. -Cups like Champions league also have a country-based system. Does the Norwegian no. 1 team really deserve a shot over Spain's number 7? I am not sure, but I believe some individual sports like tennis and chess actually allow a flood of top performers from one country, but that is NOT the norm! I actually liked the first WCS, which used a nationality based system, and it created a great deal og buzz! Too bad it happened in the immo/sentry all in vs BL Infestor era, with 3 Korean protosses eventually deathballing eachother with razor-thin forge timings in the top 3. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote: Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. Sure, and Hurricane is the GOAT, you can't disagree I think. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote: Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. Stats, Inno, Dark, Neeb... Sounds about right... + Show Spoiler + no it fucking doesn't | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 14 2017 06:16 Sakat wrote: Stats, Inno, Dark, Neeb... Sounds about right... + Show Spoiler + no it fucking doesn't One of these is not like the others  Neeb is a fantastic player, don't get me wrong, but there's absolutely no way he's among the Top 5 if you include Koreans. Not even close. INnoVation, Stats, Dark, Rogue, and TY would probably be my pick for the top 5, but I would also put Classic, herO, Dear, ByuN, Maru, Gumiho, soO, and Solar above Neeb. Basically all the top-tier Koreans. Unless of course you meant "World" in the sense of "GSL vs the World," which is to say foreigner world. Neeb is far and away #1 in the foreign scene right now. But if you were including Korea, comparing a guy who failed to qualify for GSL with a legion of GSL champions is just....no. | ||
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DSh1
292 Posts
I simply do not know how to rate Neeb (Blizzcon will tell more). Personally I would find it plausible if he would be Top 5 right now, but also agree with you that he probably is not. I believe 3/4 WCS is more difficult than many people here give credit for even if it is only "foreigners". | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote: Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. Except he isn't. He isn't even top 20. | ||
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LDaVinci
France130 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote: Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure. I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps. But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss. And no, Blizzcon does not tell the actual level of a player. You need multiples interaction between players to be able to rank them. As was said previously, Stats and Gumiho lost to Iasonu. Noone in their right mind would put Iasonu ahead of them, because one match even BO7 isn't enough. Inno is probably the undisputed top 1 player, but he is still losing BO against lesser (and sometimes much lesser) players. Like in every sport, everything is possible in one match, but only the long run is telling something. Yes Neeb didn't qualified for GSL, but Scarlett and Major did, and Neeb showed to be way above them. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
An argument could be made that he is top 5 Protoss. Stats, herO, Dear, Classic, Neeb/sOs is the argument I think. I can't think of any other P that can go toe to toe with TY. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 14 2017 19:29 LDaVinci wrote: I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure. I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps. But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss. And no, Blizzcon does not tell the actual level of a player. You need multiples interaction between players to be able to rank them. As was said previously, Stats and Gumiho lost to Iasonu. Noone in their right mind would put Iasonu ahead of them, because one match even BO7 isn't enough. Inno is probably the undisputed top 1 player, but he is still losing BO against lesser (and sometimes much lesser) players. Like in every sport, everything is possible in one match, but only the long run is telling something. Yes Neeb didn't qualified for GSL, but Scarlett and Major did, and Neeb showed to be way above them. Neeb's run at Montreal was very impressive but not unprecedented since all his opponents were foreigners. Both Maru and TY made similar runs at WESG, with TY dropping a few maps to foreigners and Maru dropping zero (he lost 4 to TY though). Neeb outclasses almost all of the foreign scene by a huge margin. Beating the crap out of foreigners like Scarlett, True, and Snute is cool but not all that amazing. Compare his run to Inno's at GSL vs the World, which was 14-1 over guys like ByuN, Stats, and TY. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:45 Locutos wrote: Neeb is surely top5 in world right now. Except he isn't. He isn't even top 20. [/QUOTE] I'm just going to list the top 20 by aligulac minus TRUE cause he's not a Korean Korean anymore (which I know is flawed) INnoVation Byun GuMiho Dark Ty Maru Solar Rogue herO soO Byul Stats Classic Zest Bunny Impact Dear sOs Ryung Hurricane I think that Neeb is easily able to fit into the top 20 if not the top 15. He's definitely better than Hurricane (despite losing twice to him), he's probably better than Ryung, Impact, potentially Bunny, probably Zest (I mean Zest has't really impressed me this year), he could go even against soO (I mean Showtime went nearly even with soO). So....I can see why Neeb is not in the top 10 World, but you'd have a very tough time convincing most people that he's not in the top 20 world. On September 15 2017 01:03 pvsnp wrote: [ Neeb's run at Montreal was very impressive but not unprecedented since all his opponents were foreigners. Both Maru and TY made similar runs at WESG, with TY dropping a few maps to foreigners and Maru dropping zero (he lost 4 to TY though). Neeb outclasses almost all of the foreign scene by a huge margin. Beating the crap out of foreigners like Scarlett, True, and Snute is cool but not all that amazing. Compare his run to Inno's at GSL vs the World, which was 14-1 over guys like ByuN, Stats, and TY. Side note, TRUE is a Korean...but yeah, Also of note is that Neeb made a similar run through WESG (losing to TY) and ending up 3rd. When I compare his run in Montreal to that of Inno in the GSL vs the World, I note that Stats weakest matchup by far is his PvT with only around a 58% winrate this year. I also note that TvT is TY's weakest matchup in this year with only around a 52% winrate this year. Byun's is strong with a 62% (or so) winrate in the matchup. Inno himself has a 66% TvP and 61% TvT. So, I wouldn't actually think that high of Inno's run. Yes, he beat top Korean players, which automatically ranks his run above Neeb's, but he did so against a player with pretty crappy PvT (Stats) and a player with pretty crappy TvT (TY). So was his run really all that impressive? I wouldn't really say so. He beater stronger players than Neeb, but it wasn't all that impressive for me personally. For reference, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute had ZvPs ranging from (62%-65%) while Neeb possesses a staggering 75% winrate this year in the matchup (granted most of the Korean Zergs he's faced are named TRUE, but he has beaten Leenock and Solar on occasion as well). So the relative strength of players that Neeb faced were generally stronger in the matchup than the relative strength of the players that Inno faced. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 14 2017 19:29 LDaVinci wrote: I hate how people are so fast on disagreeing even if there is no point of comparison. People will be fast on putting Maru or Zest above Neeb, but looking at recent result, I'm not so sure. I do think he isn't top 5 though. But I do think the performance at WCS is top 5 level. I'm not sure Inno/Byun/Gumiho would have lost only 2 maps. But definitely, I would be pretty confident putting him top 5 protoss. Litterally the other week Inno went though IAsonu, ByuN, Stats, and TY only dropping one map. Neeb did the same map score but against Soul, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute. I like Neeb but what Inno did was far more impressive You can argue Neeb above Zest any day. Wouldn't say Maru though, he gets deep in the GSL (almost) every time, and always ends up in the middle area of SSL Premier. Plus he got to the finals WeSG without losing a map as well (with absolute ez btw, not a single map was close), which is basically a WCS circuit level run. tbh any high level korean terran (inno, ty, maru, byun, gumi etc) should probably stomp Neeb in a full series. Neeb trades evenly with majOr quite consistantly, who's litterally just a slightly worse version of TY | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 15 2017 02:25 FrkFrJss wrote: Side note, TRUE is a Korean...but yeah, Also of note is that Neeb made a similar run through WESG (losing to TY) and ending up 3rd. When I compare his run in Montreal to that of Inno in the GSL vs the World, I note that Stats weakest matchup by far is his PvT with only around a 58% winrate this year. I also note that TvT is TY's weakest matchup in this year with only around a 52% winrate this year. Byun's is strong with a 62% (or so) winrate in the matchup. Inno himself has a 66% TvP and 61% TvT. So, I wouldn't actually think that high of Inno's run. Yes, he beat top Korean players, which automatically ranks his run above Neeb's, but he did so against a player with pretty crappy PvT (Stats) and a player with pretty crappy TvT (TY). So was his run really all that impressive? I wouldn't really say so. He beater stronger players than Neeb, but it wasn't all that impressive for me personally. For reference, Scarlett, TRUE, and Snute had ZvPs ranging from (62%-65%) while Neeb possesses a staggering 75% winrate this year in the matchup (granted most of the Korean Zergs he's faced are named TRUE, but he has beaten Leenock and Solar on occasion as well). So the relative strength of players that Neeb faced were generally stronger in the matchup than the relative strength of the players that Inno faced. This is where blindly reading aligulac goes wrong Stats' PvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. And TY's TvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. By a fucking mile as well You can't compare winrates of playing in different regions against different players, and say some are equivalent like that. Neeb litterally beat Code A/Code S ro32 players. Inno beat the champions (Also TIL beating ByuN, Stats, and TY with absolute ease isn't that impressive) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
Unfortunate since it's not his fault that he gets overhyped and he's a great dude but it is what it is. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 15 2017 03:07 Charoisaur wrote: Man, all those annoying fanboys that think he's a top 5 player or so make me want to watch him get crushed at Blizzcon. Unfortunate since it's not his fault that he gets overhyped and he's a great dude but it is what it is. I used to think Byun fanboys were the worst but Neeb fanboys have forced me to reconsider. Neeb himself seems like such a great guy too, humble and hardworking. It's his rabid fanboys that are racist or nationalist or blindly fanatical, or all three. Not all of his fans are that bad, but it certainly seems like a very vocal minority. | ||
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
clips.twitch.tv | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On September 15 2017 03:03 Fango wrote: This is where blindly reading aligulac goes wrong Stats' PvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. And TY's TvT is better than Snute, Scarlett, or True's ZvP. By a fucking mile as well You can't compare winrates of playing in different regions against different players, and say some are equivalent like that. Neeb litterally beat Code A/Code S ro32 players. Inno beat the champions (Also TIL beating ByuN, Stats, and TY with absolute ease isn't that impressive) See, that's where I'm not blindly reading aligulac. Actually, you were the first one to compare people cross region. What I said was that in 2017 up to now, Snute, Scarlett, and TRUE's ZvP ranged from 62%-65%, and Neeb's PvZ was 73% this year. This is all within the foreign region to gain a sense of the relative strength of the people within it. So regardless of who the person played, I am looking at how strong in that region the people that Neeb played were. Similarly, I am doing the same thing with Innovation, Stats, Byun, and TY. And within the region, regardless of how they stack up against foreign players, TY's TvT is not very good, and Stats' PvT is not very good either. I'm not talking about comparing Stats' PvT with Snute, Scarlett, or TRUE's ZvP...which, by the way, are two different matchups and thus not really comparable. So within the WCS Korea region, Inno beat two players who were bad in the vT matchup, and one player who was good in said matchup. And within the WCS Global region, Neeb beat three players who were good in the vP matchup. Ergo, I rate Neeb's win as more impressive because the players he beat relative to that region were strong in the vP matchup. And no, I wouldn't rate Inno's win versus those players as that impressive (like not super impressive). Because he was strong in that matchup and 2 out of 3 were not strong in that matchup. If Neeb beat like TLO, Zanster, and Jonsnow, I wouldn't rate that as impressive because their relative strength in the region is not very high, So you cannot compare cross-region, but you can certainly compare within a region. For instance, it's like comparing the relative strength of a person in a particular field by age bracket. Say in the World Juniors....of anything versus the World Championship of the same sport, you can say that a person is very dominant as a World Junior even if he/she would not be dominant in the World Championship circuit. So it doesn't matter that a person from the World Championship could dominate in the World Juniors, but it is merely comparing how strong a winner in the World Junior event is to his or her peers and how strong a World Championship winner is to his her peers. | ||
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