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On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million.
So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then?
What a brilliant post.
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On January 02 2017 01:21 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million. So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then? What a brilliant post.
Listen SC2 players can only do well in similarly unpopular games like CSGO and hearthstone
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Bwahahahaha! Overwatch pro! Good luck, kid.
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On January 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 14:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.' My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME" But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route When there's a greater goal in mind like making starcraft 2 more fun or making it the best it can possibly be, anyone intelligent enough to dominate the sport should be intelligent enough to cooperate with other people towards a greater goal, without worrying about short term things like balance, especially if such people were actually hired and had a real job with blizzard blizzard should've hired a bunch of sc experts in 2005 (progamers or ex-progamers with an eye for game design) when they started designing starcraft 2 and have them on the payroll full-time to playtest the shit out of their game and make it as fun as possible. Then kept those people on payroll to be as good as possible at sc2 without actually participating in tournaments and keep improving the game. Considering the benefits it wouldve been a worthy investment in my opinion, as opposed to the situation right now where some (most? idk really) people at blizzard havent played sc2 for years, let alone play at a high enough level to understand the game.. and good luck MarineLord :D
David Kim talked about the dilemma they have now, where there are too few people that are both good game designers and good players.
This would be an interesting approach and would like to see blizzard follow this.
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One of the best EU terrans, big loss. 
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On January 02 2017 01:26 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 01:21 207aicila wrote:On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million. So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then? What a brilliant post. Listen SC2 players can only do well in similarly unpopular games like CSGO and hearthstone
Which SC2 progamers switched to CS?
So far the only successful switches I can think of are in hearthstone and Babyknight in Dota2.
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On January 02 2017 02:12 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 01:26 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 02 2017 01:21 207aicila wrote:On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million. So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then? What a brilliant post. Listen SC2 players can only do well in similarly unpopular games like CSGO and hearthstone Which SC2 progamers switched to CS? So far the only successful switches I can think of are in hearthstone and Babyknight in Dota2.
EliGe was on Clarity as a StarCraft player although he never quiet broke through.
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It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
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On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
Honestly I think it's pretty unlikely Blizzard isn't aware of most of these opinions, everyone thinks something different though.
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Good luck. Hopefully you'll have more success in OW than Lilbow.
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What a shame
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On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it.
It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon.
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On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black).
Switching from an RTS is not that difficult since the basics are quite similar. Switching to something like an FPS or a fighting game would be entirely different because most basic skills are not "transferable" between those genres
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GL Marinelord !
I was cheering for you, i am sure you can be pro in OW since you are known to be really good at every game you play, even casually. Heard you were semi-pro lvl in few games.
I don't know what's up with the Lilbow dislike ? I thought he was successfull at OW, until december he was part of the Team Vitality lineup and earning good paychecks.
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On January 02 2017 00:31 JokerAi wrote:
I think it is more a skill think. Koreans totaly dominate with terras right now. In this patch Terran is the strongest race in my point of view.
I could not agree more.
Im only gold Terran, but I watch a huge amounts of sc2 games (VOD, reps pack and Twitch stream) and I think the korean Terrans are just invincible.
Look how Inno rolls upon Soo face when they play each other on Kr Ladder. Just amazing as Soo looks like a plat scrub in front of the "5min Steam timing".
Maru and ByuN do the same.
But I think there was always been a huge gap between Foreign Terrans and Kr Terrans.
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On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
Plenty of pros used to, but you usually just get called a whiner and you should "l2p like Koreans do instead".
So there is no point in voicing your opinion publicly anymore, you don't get anything good out of it as a pro player 
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On January 02 2017 04:34 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else. And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it. It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon.
Avilo is not a pro.
And he is whining like a crybaby.
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On January 02 2017 01:11 StatixEx wrote:
just need to throw my 2cents into all the people;e going on about hes quit because blizz have ruined the game. for me, blizz has not ruined the game, at all!
- its been a 20ish year love affair which has to come to an end, sc1 - now, the games just been done to death
- 2010 - sc2 esport explosion year (just before lol anyway) just over saturated the place. people just got sick of starcraft after they attracted the masses
- with the twitch exposure (or was it justin then ) the masses soon realised that sc2 wasnt an easy game, the game has way too steep of a mastery curve so the bubble bursts
as a mid 30 yr old having seen the full development of this game, with adult eyes from the first game io played(and trust me when i said noone had a pc in 1997 with an internet connection. well hardly Noone because i remember it.), nothing touches sc. Its just older the players crave a bit of newness but as its own polar, cant let go of their rose tinted glasses look at bw.
newbies cant get over how hard it is when games like lol, Ow are around and seem to insta reward you (or more like you can blame everyone else)
its just the way of things im afraid. there is nothing wrong with the game. people are just burnt out with it.
Agreed. I played SC on LAN and battle.net back in the 90s, even before BW came out. I think LotV is the best version of SC2 so far. I watched a lot less after some of my favorite players (Life, Rain, Jaedong) stopped playing. I still tuned in for things like Stork in Code A or the last GSL and I enjoy watching Dark and Soo and even Showtime.
The issue with SC2 is not game development but bad marketing and growing frustration within the playerbase in my opinion. But that frustration is more of a perception thing. People don't play the game because it's too hard but it's easier to "justify" not playing the game if one can blame someone for it and so the dev team is the scapegoat.
SC2 had many horrible decisions (like forcing things on the Korean esports scene) but the big issues were in my opinion much more present during BL/Infestor or SwarmHost times.
BW and SC2 are just different games and I enjoy watching both. For SC2 (or SC3) to work it needs to marketed differently. Instead of trying to cater to casuals it should be marketed as the hardest game in esports and make people proud to play it. It's a game for the elite of the players and it probably doesn't need a single player campaign etc. (or include that to make some cash) but a good interface, good observer / replay functionality and good balance and we have that right now.
SC3 should be the next step and include the micro potential of BW but add interface/qol improvements as balanced upgrades, so players can truly focus on their playstyle. Do I want to invest into auto-mining, multi-building selection, larger control groups etc. or do I want to do that myself and have more ressources available? Different but balanced styles, less rock-paper-scissor. I don't think there is a developer team that could pull that off currently but in ten years - maybe.
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Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore.
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On January 02 2017 06:42 Argonauta wrote:
Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore.
He has said the game is not fun for him anymore for a long time.
It was kind of expected, he is not blaming anyone just telling that the direction of the game with the last patch didn't change the way he is feeling.
Noone should hate on the guy, he did bring good things to the game like most of the pros that retires these days.
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EPT
