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Hey guys,making this twitlonger to announce that i'll take a step back from sc2 after WESG.As you may know i really don't love playing the game since the start of 2016, i think the game design is really going in the wrong way since the release of lotv, the new major patch confirmed my thought . I'm not going into details but for now i'll try to become an overwatch progamer, i really like the game, I know it's a very hard transition to go from a RTS to a FPS so i can't be sure i'll be succesfull, but i'm taking the risk .
A big shoutout to llewelys and millenium for supporting me since 4 years, letting me play for the best french team even if i had a pathetic start and a very bad first year.
I will obviously play for team france in nation war, and play the wesg tournament in china as i already made my visa and everything was booked (i will represent millenium in those tournament)
Thanks to every fan who supported me during those 3,4 years of progaming even if my result
were very inconsistent.
Source: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spg74e
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What happened to Lilbow anyway?
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On January 01 2017 08:41 Ansibled wrote:
What happened to Lilbow anyway?
He's playing casually, like every pro that ever say they will switch to another game.
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thanks for the games. you are an entertaining player even if you had ups and downs. Last year's NW finals was crazy.
wouallez copain. best of luck.
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As you may know i really don't love playing the game since the start of 2016, i think the game design is really going in the wrong way since the release of lotv, the new major patch confirmed my thought.
Another pro quitting because of Blizzard's incompetence. What a surprise. I swear they don't listen to pro feedback at all, they just do their own thing.
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On January 01 2017 08:41 Ansibled wrote:
What happened to Lilbow anyway?
Insert "Practicing for Warcraft 4" joke here
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On January 01 2017 08:57 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +As you may know i really don't love playing the game since the start of 2016, i think the game design is really going in the wrong way since the release of lotv, the new major patch confirmed my thought. Another pro quitting because of Blizzard's incompetence. What a surprise. I swear they don't listen to pro feedback at all, they just do their own thing.
They read reddit, not a lot of pros post there though.
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I wonder what he's placed in OW right now. I sure hope he's high masters++, else it'll be quite difficult, I think.
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On January 01 2017 09:54 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 08:57 Solar424 wrote:As you may know i really don't love playing the game since the start of 2016, i think the game design is really going in the wrong way since the release of lotv, the new major patch confirmed my thought. Another pro quitting because of Blizzard's incompetence. What a surprise. I swear they don't listen to pro feedback at all, they just do their own thing. They read reddit, not a lot of pros post there though.
Even if they read Reddit they'd realize how terrible they've done with the game for the last 6 years, especially with the new changes. Pretty much everyone there said that they changes were going to be a disaster, which they were.
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ofc its a terran player ;(
will this stop? no terrans left soon
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On January 01 2017 09:54 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 08:57 Solar424 wrote:As you may know i really don't love playing the game since the start of 2016, i think the game design is really going in the wrong way since the release of lotv, the new major patch confirmed my thought. Another pro quitting because of Blizzard's incompetence. What a surprise. I swear they don't listen to pro feedback at all, they just do their own thing. They read reddit, not a lot of pros post there though.
They (David kim) actually are in contact with few player, and what i learnt from that is that they are kind of clueless, sadly
For the guy asking I have two acc in GM currently, my main is low gm and my smurf is somewhere into gm
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Sad news :-(
But at least people will stop asking me if I'm Marinelord now
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seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone.
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On January 01 2017 10:47 MilLorD wrote:
Sad news :-(
But at least people will stop asking me if I'm Marinelord now
In due time, I will ask.
In due time.
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On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone.
Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says.
Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true
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On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true
Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad.
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I wish Blizzard had the cash to hire all the expert game developers that hang around on Team Liquid.
Sucks that he feels like he has to retire, but when you don't enjoy the game you can't really force yourself without some major sadness in your life. Don't really see how transitioning from RTS to FPS is going to work out, though. Seems like skills that won't really swap over.
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both?
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On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
I wish Blizzard had the cash to hire all the expert game developers that hang around on Team Liquid.
Just cut your sarcasm...
Noone is an expert game developer here, what we are saying is they dont play the game.
We are players, they dont listen to us.
There are many bug fixes and improvements that could be in the game way earlier if they actually played the game and knew what is happening there, like how channels were needed, UI improvements or replay tools are still not really good. The community had to cry a long time to get the resume from replay feature.
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On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both?
sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black).
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On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
I wish Blizzard had the cash to hire all the expert game developers that hang around on Team Liquid.
Sucks that he feels like he has to retire, but when you don't enjoy the game you can't really force yourself without some major sadness in your life. Don't really see how transitioning from RTS to FPS is going to work out, though. Seems like skills that won't really swap over.
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both?
I've won first place online tournaments many times in rainbow six rogue spear (FPS) and age of empire II (RTS) and rank 1 world of warcraft pvp with 6 different teammates (different playstyles). So skill wise it is possible, but you really need to put in the time and know the ins and outs, min max everything, and most importantly, need to love playing it. I find it hard to be top tier at something you don't love, just pure hard work is not enough. It is rare but possible, same with some baseball players transitioning to football or basketball etc. It's rare but some people are just very athletic and can play more than one sport at top level with time+practice. A lot of csgo, sc2, hearthstone pro players right now i'm sure if you ask them they've been very very good if not pro level at some other game before these games.
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Wow,I thought he was really breaking out 2016, but his reasoning isn't that unexpected
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On January 01 2017 11:35 ProBell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
I wish Blizzard had the cash to hire all the expert game developers that hang around on Team Liquid.
Sucks that he feels like he has to retire, but when you don't enjoy the game you can't really force yourself without some major sadness in your life. Don't really see how transitioning from RTS to FPS is going to work out, though. Seems like skills that won't really swap over.
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? I've won first place online tournaments many times in rainbow six rogue spear (FPS) and age of empire II (RTS) and rank 1 world of warcraft pvp with 6 different teammates (different playstyles). So skill wise it is possible, but you really need to put in the time and know the ins and outs, min max everything, and most importantly, need to love playing it. I find it hard to be top tier at something you don't love, just pure hard work is not enough. It is rare but possible, same with some baseball players transitioning to football or basketball etc. It's rare but some people are just very athletic and can play more than one sport at top level with time+practice. A lot of csgo, sc2, hearthstone pro players right now i'm sure if you ask them they've been very very good if not pro level at some other game before these games.
Certainly it's possible to be really good at different games on ladder, but at a PROFESSIONAL level with money on the line in respective games? Seems very daunting.
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On January 01 2017 10:34 Mlord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 09:54 Comedy wrote:On January 01 2017 08:57 Solar424 wrote:As you may know i really don't love playing the game since the start of 2016, i think the game design is really going in the wrong way since the release of lotv, the new major patch confirmed my thought. Another pro quitting because of Blizzard's incompetence. What a surprise. I swear they don't listen to pro feedback at all, they just do their own thing. They read reddit, not a lot of pros post there though. They (David kim) actually are in contact with few player, and what i learnt from that is that they are kind of clueless, sadly For the guy asking I have two acc in GM currently, my main is low gm and my smurf is somewhere into gm
Not too bad! I'll be interested in seeing how well you do once you get super into it. Don't forget to stream \o/
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
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On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad.
I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made.
The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved.
And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes.
You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.'
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On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.'
My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME"
But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route
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fix protoss
User was warned for this post
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Ohh !!, yet god another whine thread in the making
Hope it works well for MarineLorD in Overwatch, i suspect he wont get far, as they are completely different games
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gl hf Marinelord! You have quite a legacy in NW to live up to. 
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On January 01 2017 14:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.' My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME" But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route
When there's a greater goal in mind like making starcraft 2 more fun or making it the best it can possibly be, anyone intelligent enough to dominate the sport should be intelligent enough to cooperate with other people towards a greater goal, without worrying about short term things like balance, especially if such people were actually hired and had a real job with blizzard
blizzard should've hired a bunch of sc experts in 2005 (progamers or ex-progamers with an eye for game design) when they started designing starcraft 2 and have them on the payroll full-time to playtest the shit out of their game and make it as fun as possible. Then kept those people on payroll to be as good as possible at sc2 without actually participating in tournaments and keep improving the game.
Considering the benefits it wouldve been a worthy investment in my opinion, as opposed to the situation right now where some (most? idk really) people at blizzard havent played sc2 for years, let alone play at a high enough level to understand the game..
and good luck MarineLord :D
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Good luck to his future endeavors.
Not sure if we're allowed to talk about the direction of the game here, but it's certain the future isn't looking bright with the current design/balance team in charge.
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On January 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 14:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.' My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME" But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route When there's a greater goal in mind like making starcraft 2 more fun or making it the best it can possibly be, anyone intelligent enough to dominate the sport should be intelligent enough to cooperate with other people towards a greater goal, without worrying about short term things like balance, especially if such people were actually hired and had a real job with blizzard blizzard should've hired a bunch of sc experts in 2005 (progamers or ex-progamers with an eye for game design) when they started designing starcraft 2 and have them on the payroll full-time to playtest the shit out of their game and make it as fun as possible. Then kept those people on payroll to be as good as possible at sc2 without actually participating in tournaments and keep improving the game. Considering the benefits it wouldve been a worthy investment in my opinion, as opposed to the situation right now where some (most? idk really) people at blizzard havent played sc2 for years, let alone play at a high enough level to understand the game.. and good luck MarineLord :D
Let's hope they can figure this out for War4...
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On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black).
ggoong switch from SCBW to LoL and did well in NJWS
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I think it is more a skill think. Koreans totaly dominate with terras right now. In this patch Terran is the strongest race in my point of view. Is all time the same think for me Eu terrans have not enough skill to play terran thats it.
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On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black).
That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million.
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On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million.
By that logic the sc2 playerbase must be incredibly low skilled with ~ 200k players.
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On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
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just need to throw my 2cents into all the people;e going on about hes quit because blizz have ruined the game. for me, blizz has not ruined the game, at all!
- its been a 20ish year love affair which has to come to an end, sc1 - now, the games just been done to death
- 2010 - sc2 esport explosion year (just before lol anyway) just over saturated the place. people just got sick of starcraft after they attracted the masses
- with the twitch exposure (or was it justin then ) the masses soon realised that sc2 wasnt an easy game, the game has way too steep of a mastery curve so the bubble bursts
as a mid 30 yr old having seen the full development of this game, with adult eyes from the first game io played(and trust me when i said noone had a pc in 1997 with an internet connection. well hardly Noone because i remember it.), nothing touches sc. Its just older the players crave a bit of newness but as its own polar, cant let go of their rose tinted glasses look at bw.
newbies cant get over how hard it is when games like lol, Ow are around and seem to insta reward you (or more like you can blame everyone else)
its just the way of things im afraid. there is nothing wrong with the game. people are just burnt out with it.
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On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million.
So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then?
What a brilliant post.
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On January 02 2017 01:21 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million. So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then? What a brilliant post.
Listen SC2 players can only do well in similarly unpopular games like CSGO and hearthstone
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Bwahahahaha! Overwatch pro! Good luck, kid.
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On January 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 14:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.' My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME" But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route When there's a greater goal in mind like making starcraft 2 more fun or making it the best it can possibly be, anyone intelligent enough to dominate the sport should be intelligent enough to cooperate with other people towards a greater goal, without worrying about short term things like balance, especially if such people were actually hired and had a real job with blizzard blizzard should've hired a bunch of sc experts in 2005 (progamers or ex-progamers with an eye for game design) when they started designing starcraft 2 and have them on the payroll full-time to playtest the shit out of their game and make it as fun as possible. Then kept those people on payroll to be as good as possible at sc2 without actually participating in tournaments and keep improving the game. Considering the benefits it wouldve been a worthy investment in my opinion, as opposed to the situation right now where some (most? idk really) people at blizzard havent played sc2 for years, let alone play at a high enough level to understand the game.. and good luck MarineLord :D
David Kim talked about the dilemma they have now, where there are too few people that are both good game designers and good players.
This would be an interesting approach and would like to see blizzard follow this.
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One of the best EU terrans, big loss. 
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On January 02 2017 01:26 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 01:21 207aicila wrote:On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million. So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then? What a brilliant post. Listen SC2 players can only do well in similarly unpopular games like CSGO and hearthstone
Which SC2 progamers switched to CS?
So far the only successful switches I can think of are in hearthstone and Babyknight in Dota2.
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On January 02 2017 02:12 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 01:26 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 02 2017 01:21 207aicila wrote:On January 02 2017 00:35 JokerAi wrote:On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black). That is a bad example. Heros of the strom have the lowest playerbase of all esport games. Which means lower skilled playerbase. heros have a tiny bit more then 1 million player and overwatch have over 15 million. So HOTS has 5x more players than SC2, but it's a low skill game because it doesn't have enough players? What about SC2 then? What a brilliant post. Listen SC2 players can only do well in similarly unpopular games like CSGO and hearthstone Which SC2 progamers switched to CS? So far the only successful switches I can think of are in hearthstone and Babyknight in Dota2.
EliGe was on Clarity as a StarCraft player although he never quiet broke through.
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It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
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On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
Honestly I think it's pretty unlikely Blizzard isn't aware of most of these opinions, everyone thinks something different though.
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Good luck. Hopefully you'll have more success in OW than Lilbow.
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What a shame
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On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it.
It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon.
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On January 01 2017 11:29 Fran_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 11:10 Rehio wrote:
Has there ever been anyone who's switched game genres and been successful in both? sC and Noblesse switched from SC2 to Heroes and they recently won the Fall Championship. Quite few other strong SC2 koreans players are playing in top korean teams (e.g. MVP Black).
Switching from an RTS is not that difficult since the basics are quite similar. Switching to something like an FPS or a fighting game would be entirely different because most basic skills are not "transferable" between those genres
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GL Marinelord !
I was cheering for you, i am sure you can be pro in OW since you are known to be really good at every game you play, even casually. Heard you were semi-pro lvl in few games.
I don't know what's up with the Lilbow dislike ? I thought he was successfull at OW, until december he was part of the Team Vitality lineup and earning good paychecks.
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On January 02 2017 00:31 JokerAi wrote:
I think it is more a skill think. Koreans totaly dominate with terras right now. In this patch Terran is the strongest race in my point of view.
I could not agree more.
Im only gold Terran, but I watch a huge amounts of sc2 games (VOD, reps pack and Twitch stream) and I think the korean Terrans are just invincible.
Look how Inno rolls upon Soo face when they play each other on Kr Ladder. Just amazing as Soo looks like a plat scrub in front of the "5min Steam timing".
Maru and ByuN do the same.
But I think there was always been a huge gap between Foreign Terrans and Kr Terrans.
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On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else.
Plenty of pros used to, but you usually just get called a whiner and you should "l2p like Koreans do instead".
So there is no point in voicing your opinion publicly anymore, you don't get anything good out of it as a pro player 
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On January 02 2017 04:34 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else. And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it. It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon.
Avilo is not a pro.
And he is whining like a crybaby.
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On January 02 2017 01:11 StatixEx wrote:
just need to throw my 2cents into all the people;e going on about hes quit because blizz have ruined the game. for me, blizz has not ruined the game, at all!
- its been a 20ish year love affair which has to come to an end, sc1 - now, the games just been done to death
- 2010 - sc2 esport explosion year (just before lol anyway) just over saturated the place. people just got sick of starcraft after they attracted the masses
- with the twitch exposure (or was it justin then ) the masses soon realised that sc2 wasnt an easy game, the game has way too steep of a mastery curve so the bubble bursts
as a mid 30 yr old having seen the full development of this game, with adult eyes from the first game io played(and trust me when i said noone had a pc in 1997 with an internet connection. well hardly Noone because i remember it.), nothing touches sc. Its just older the players crave a bit of newness but as its own polar, cant let go of their rose tinted glasses look at bw.
newbies cant get over how hard it is when games like lol, Ow are around and seem to insta reward you (or more like you can blame everyone else)
its just the way of things im afraid. there is nothing wrong with the game. people are just burnt out with it.
Agreed. I played SC on LAN and battle.net back in the 90s, even before BW came out. I think LotV is the best version of SC2 so far. I watched a lot less after some of my favorite players (Life, Rain, Jaedong) stopped playing. I still tuned in for things like Stork in Code A or the last GSL and I enjoy watching Dark and Soo and even Showtime.
The issue with SC2 is not game development but bad marketing and growing frustration within the playerbase in my opinion. But that frustration is more of a perception thing. People don't play the game because it's too hard but it's easier to "justify" not playing the game if one can blame someone for it and so the dev team is the scapegoat.
SC2 had many horrible decisions (like forcing things on the Korean esports scene) but the big issues were in my opinion much more present during BL/Infestor or SwarmHost times.
BW and SC2 are just different games and I enjoy watching both. For SC2 (or SC3) to work it needs to marketed differently. Instead of trying to cater to casuals it should be marketed as the hardest game in esports and make people proud to play it. It's a game for the elite of the players and it probably doesn't need a single player campaign etc. (or include that to make some cash) but a good interface, good observer / replay functionality and good balance and we have that right now.
SC3 should be the next step and include the micro potential of BW but add interface/qol improvements as balanced upgrades, so players can truly focus on their playstyle. Do I want to invest into auto-mining, multi-building selection, larger control groups etc. or do I want to do that myself and have more ressources available? Different but balanced styles, less rock-paper-scissor. I don't think there is a developer team that could pull that off currently but in ten years - maybe.
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Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore.
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On January 02 2017 06:42 Argonauta wrote:
Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore.
He has said the game is not fun for him anymore for a long time.
It was kind of expected, he is not blaming anyone just telling that the direction of the game with the last patch didn't change the way he is feeling.
Noone should hate on the guy, he did bring good things to the game like most of the pros that retires these days.
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On January 02 2017 06:42 Argonauta wrote:
Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore.
The sad thing to me is that it's very apparent there's people at Blizzard that LOVE Starcraft. Morhaime being the first and the most important one overall. But the magic is not there, they don't have the developper genius that created BroodWar anymore.
I love David Kim but the guy is in over his head trying to solve the mistery of making RTS feel right again.
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On January 02 2017 04:34 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else. And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it. It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon.
Comparing actual pro-gamers like MarineLorD who are actually good at the game and probably know what they're talking about to Avilo is actually more insulting than just posting something ignorant and stupid like "good riddance you're not as good as [other player] anyway".
On January 02 2017 07:18 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 06:42 Argonauta wrote:
Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore. The sad thing to me is that it's very apparent there's people at Blizzard that LOVE Starcraft. Morhaime being the first and the most important one overall. But the magic is not there, they don't have the developper genius that created BroodWar anymore. I love David Kim but the guy is in over his head trying to solve the mistery of making RTS feel right again.
Completely agreed with this post.
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On January 02 2017 09:33 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 04:34 RoomOfMush wrote:On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else. And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it. It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon. Comparing actual pro-gamers like MarineLorD who are actually good at the game and probably know what they're talking about to Avilo is actually more insulting than just posting something ignorant and stupid like "good riddance you're not as good as [other player] anyway".
Where am I comparing anybody?
You try to read an awful lot imaginary information into peoples comments. Within the last 2 days I have witnessed at least 3 times where you dont actually read what somebody wrote and attack a poster on made-up claims.
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Why doesn't HeroMarine exchange race as well as change heroes in OW, and solve your unbalance problem? Simple... Sorry my poor english...
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Roomofmush wasn't comparing MarineLorD to Avilo. He was just using Avilo's name as a label for being a whiney crybaby, and saying that some real progamers are sometimes labeled as 'Avilo' when they are vocal about the design/balance of SC2.
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so sad to see promising French players quit the game so early
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On January 02 2017 06:00 Hildegard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 01:11 StatixEx wrote:
just need to throw my 2cents into all the people;e going on about hes quit because blizz have ruined the game. for me, blizz has not ruined the game, at all!
- its been a 20ish year love affair which has to come to an end, sc1 - now, the games just been done to death
- 2010 - sc2 esport explosion year (just before lol anyway) just over saturated the place. people just got sick of starcraft after they attracted the masses
- with the twitch exposure (or was it justin then ) the masses soon realised that sc2 wasnt an easy game, the game has way too steep of a mastery curve so the bubble bursts
as a mid 30 yr old having seen the full development of this game, with adult eyes from the first game io played(and trust me when i said noone had a pc in 1997 with an internet connection. well hardly Noone because i remember it.), nothing touches sc. Its just older the players crave a bit of newness but as its own polar, cant let go of their rose tinted glasses look at bw.
newbies cant get over how hard it is when games like lol, Ow are around and seem to insta reward you (or more like you can blame everyone else)
its just the way of things im afraid. there is nothing wrong with the game. people are just burnt out with it.
Agreed. I played SC on LAN and battle.net back in the 90s, even before BW came out. I think LotV is the best version of SC2 so far. I watched a lot less after some of my favorite players (Life, Rain, Jaedong) stopped playing. I still tuned in for things like Stork in Code A or the last GSL and I enjoy watching Dark and Soo and even Showtime. The issue with SC2 is not game development but bad marketing and growing frustration within the playerbase in my opinion. But that frustration is more of a perception thing. People don't play the game because it's too hard but it's easier to "justify" not playing the game if one can blame someone for it and so the dev team is the scapegoat. SC2 had many horrible decisions (like forcing things on the Korean esports scene) but the big issues were in my opinion much more present during BL/Infestor or SwarmHost times. BW and SC2 are just different games and I enjoy watching both. For SC2 (or SC3) to work it needs to marketed differently. Instead of trying to cater to casuals it should be marketed as the hardest game in esports and make people proud to play it. It's a game for the elite of the players and it probably doesn't need a single player campaign etc. (or include that to make some cash) but a good interface, good observer / replay functionality and good balance and we have that right now. SC3 should be the next step and include the micro potential of BW but add interface/qol improvements as balanced upgrades, so players can truly focus on their playstyle. Do I want to invest into auto-mining, multi-building selection, larger control groups etc. or do I want to do that myself and have more ressources available? Different but balanced styles, less rock-paper-scissor. I don't think there is a developer team that could pull that off currently but in ten years - maybe.
Totally agreed with you two. Whats inside my head? I think MarineLord is attracted by something else, not the beauty of SC2. Money may be? IDK, but gl to him.
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I think SC2 just isn't very fun to play and in many cases to watch too, and it's only getting worse for me. Just the amount of frustrating things you have to deal with in SC2 compared to BW is astonishing.
You know something is wrong when most of the game is about killing workers. Lose 10 workers without doing any other damage = you all in or die, or hope your opponent messes up. Early game cloaked banshee? You just lost a bunch of workers and the banshee is still alive, now make some static defense and die later, but better just GG now. Widow mine in your mineral line? Better pull those workers out of there, use that queen to chip on the medivac and build detection.
Didn't die to any of the above? Don't worry you can also straight up die to a build order that counters completely everything you're doing, which the enemy didn't even scout, he just randomly did and you lost.
And all these problems are exacerbated when watching pro SC2, because the viewers can already see the game ending long before it even ends. Compare this to the epic games going on at ASL right now and even the disappointing Bisu vs Sea was still more fun to watch, even after Bisu made a bunch of mistakes he still had a chance to win and the games are back and forth until the very end when one player wins after a bunch of epic fights.
Maybe David Kim just needs to watch a bit of ASL because BW sure is a lot better than the current state of SC2.
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I have been playing the BW campaign in the last days (just for fun, I never played BW seriously), and I don't understand how SC2 could be judged MORE frustrating than BW.. just the pathing is really messing up a lot of my (very non-competitive, I'm just trying to fight for Aiur  ) games.
I understand the frustration of loosing many workers due to an unspotted widow mine, but to me it's less frustrating than telling your dragoons to go to A and watching them derp around until they reach the opposite corner of the map and never make it to where you told them to go
Equally frustrating is the fact that I cannot control a big army (after 3 control groups everything it's really messed up), or that managing the production of units is extremely difficult (more than it feels right *to me*), etc. etc.
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On January 03 2017 17:55 VHbb wrote:I have been playing the BW campaign in the last days (just for fun, I never played BW seriously), and I don't understand how SC2 could be judged MORE frustrating than BW.. just the pathing is really messing up a lot of my (very non-competitive, I'm just trying to fight for Aiur ) games. I understand the frustration of loosing many workers due to an unspotted widow mine, but to me it's less frustrating than telling your dragoons to go to A and watching them derp around until they reach the opposite corner of the map and never make it to where you told them to go Equally frustrating is the fact that I cannot control a big army (after 3 control groups everything it's really messed up), or that managing the production of units is extremely difficult (more than it feels right *to me*), etc. etc.
You are comparing technical issues with design issues. The widow mine is a terrible frustrating unit, the pathing in BW is the result of the technology devs had in that time.
In BW multiplayer the game is a lot more focused on macro and base building. Bases last longer, all ins are a lot harder to pull off because of the strength of static defense. Sniping bases is harder.
The games are actually decided by broader tactical decisions involving big armies and higher tech. Where as in SC2 you could make a bunch of marines, research stim, add a few medivacs and widow mines move in and win very early in the game, something like this can very rarely happen in BW.
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On January 03 2017 18:04 Kaewins wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2017 17:55 VHbb wrote:I have been playing the BW campaign in the last days (just for fun, I never played BW seriously), and I don't understand how SC2 could be judged MORE frustrating than BW.. just the pathing is really messing up a lot of my (very non-competitive, I'm just trying to fight for Aiur ) games. I understand the frustration of loosing many workers due to an unspotted widow mine, but to me it's less frustrating than telling your dragoons to go to A and watching them derp around until they reach the opposite corner of the map and never make it to where you told them to go Equally frustrating is the fact that I cannot control a big army (after 3 control groups everything it's really messed up), or that managing the production of units is extremely difficult (more than it feels right *to me*), etc. etc. You are comparing technical issues with design issues. The widow mine is a terrible frustrating unit, the pathing in BW is the result of the technology devs had in that time. In BW multiplayer the game is a lot more focused on macro and base building. Bases last longer, all ins are a lot harder to pull off because of the strength of static defense. Sniping bases is harder. The games are actually decided by broader tactical decisions involving big armies and higher tech. Where as in SC2 you could make a bunch of marines, research stim, add a few medivacs and widow mines move in and win very early in the game, something like this can very rarely happen in BW.
You are going a little far there. This can very well happen in BW and it does every now and then. Of course the pros are good enough to defend some 85% of the time but the other 15% succed. There are plenty of TvZ games which end because of a quick medic+marine+firebat push and the Z doesnt have enough static D.
As much as I prefer BW over SC2 you should still try to be fair here. There are also plenty of frustrating harassment options in BW. Mutas against a P who did not go for Corsairs are really hard to deal with. Thats the reason why almost all Ps go Corsairs every game. Reaver can also end the game early. At least with Reavers there is a >50% chance the scarab wont do anything... Dont know if that makes it any less frustrating.
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Belgium9945 Posts
On January 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 14:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.' My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME" But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route When there's a greater goal in mind like making starcraft 2 more fun or making it the best it can possibly be, anyone intelligent enough to dominate the sport should be intelligent enough to cooperate with other people towards a greater goal, without worrying about short term things like balance, especially if such people were actually hired and had a real job with blizzard blizzard should've hired a bunch of sc experts in 2005 (progamers or ex-progamers with an eye for game design) when they started designing starcraft 2 and have them on the payroll full-time to playtest the shit out of their game and make it as fun as possible. Then kept those people on payroll to be as good as possible at sc2 without actually participating in tournaments and keep improving the game. Considering the benefits it wouldve been a worthy investment in my opinion, as opposed to the situation right now where some (most? idk really) people at blizzard havent played sc2 for years, let alone play at a high enough level to understand the game.. and good luck MarineLord :D
Yeah seriously, this is what annoys me the hardest.
The basic stuff that was in the first few SC2 patches just revealed how scrubby their playtesters were. Any reasonable playtester with SC knowledge wouldve started out with testing all the Warpgate rush and bunker rush builds...
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Mech is better, terran is reasonably good in all matchups, and the game is pacy and exciting. What exactly made marlinelord tick? I haven't touched the game in years, especially in hots as a zerg player before switching to terran, it was god awful, i went back to warcraft 3 untill recently because in my opinion the game was not worth playing, now it's the polar opposite.
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EPT
