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On January 02 2017 06:42 Argonauta wrote:
Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore.
The sad thing to me is that it's very apparent there's people at Blizzard that LOVE Starcraft. Morhaime being the first and the most important one overall. But the magic is not there, they don't have the developper genius that created BroodWar anymore.
I love David Kim but the guy is in over his head trying to solve the mistery of making RTS feel right again.
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On January 02 2017 04:34 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else. And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it. It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon.
Comparing actual pro-gamers like MarineLorD who are actually good at the game and probably know what they're talking about to Avilo is actually more insulting than just posting something ignorant and stupid like "good riddance you're not as good as [other player] anyway".
On January 02 2017 07:18 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 06:42 Argonauta wrote:
Honestly Im tired of hearing about people bashing on Blizzard and balance desing problems its like ded gaem meme, so easy to pull it off to try to justify things. IM not saying that MarineLord is relying on it on purpose but I've seen it so much it has no meaning anymore. The sad thing to me is that it's very apparent there's people at Blizzard that LOVE Starcraft. Morhaime being the first and the most important one overall. But the magic is not there, they don't have the developper genius that created BroodWar anymore. I love David Kim but the guy is in over his head trying to solve the mistery of making RTS feel right again.
Completely agreed with this post.
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On January 02 2017 09:33 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 04:34 RoomOfMush wrote:On January 02 2017 03:00 JackONeill wrote:
It's nice to see pros stating their mind about the game. It's a shame most of them aren't doing it before quitting.
If more pros and casters would voice their opinions about the state of the game, MAYBE blizz would finally listen to the most valuable people of the community instead of sometimes reading 2 posts from the Bnet forum and ignoring everything else. And then they get branded as crybabies like Avilo who is constantly whining about the state of the game and called out for it. It feels to me like the community had an attitude where badmouthing the game was frowned upon. Comparing actual pro-gamers like MarineLorD who are actually good at the game and probably know what they're talking about to Avilo is actually more insulting than just posting something ignorant and stupid like "good riddance you're not as good as [other player] anyway".
Where am I comparing anybody?
You try to read an awful lot imaginary information into peoples comments. Within the last 2 days I have witnessed at least 3 times where you dont actually read what somebody wrote and attack a poster on made-up claims.
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Why doesn't HeroMarine exchange race as well as change heroes in OW, and solve your unbalance problem? Simple... Sorry my poor english...
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Roomofmush wasn't comparing MarineLorD to Avilo. He was just using Avilo's name as a label for being a whiney crybaby, and saying that some real progamers are sometimes labeled as 'Avilo' when they are vocal about the design/balance of SC2.
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so sad to see promising French players quit the game so early 
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On January 02 2017 06:00 Hildegard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 01:11 StatixEx wrote:
just need to throw my 2cents into all the people;e going on about hes quit because blizz have ruined the game. for me, blizz has not ruined the game, at all!
- its been a 20ish year love affair which has to come to an end, sc1 - now, the games just been done to death
- 2010 - sc2 esport explosion year (just before lol anyway) just over saturated the place. people just got sick of starcraft after they attracted the masses
- with the twitch exposure (or was it justin then ) the masses soon realised that sc2 wasnt an easy game, the game has way too steep of a mastery curve so the bubble bursts
as a mid 30 yr old having seen the full development of this game, with adult eyes from the first game io played(and trust me when i said noone had a pc in 1997 with an internet connection. well hardly Noone because i remember it.), nothing touches sc. Its just older the players crave a bit of newness but as its own polar, cant let go of their rose tinted glasses look at bw.
newbies cant get over how hard it is when games like lol, Ow are around and seem to insta reward you (or more like you can blame everyone else)
its just the way of things im afraid. there is nothing wrong with the game. people are just burnt out with it.
Agreed. I played SC on LAN and battle.net back in the 90s, even before BW came out. I think LotV is the best version of SC2 so far. I watched a lot less after some of my favorite players (Life, Rain, Jaedong) stopped playing. I still tuned in for things like Stork in Code A or the last GSL and I enjoy watching Dark and Soo and even Showtime. The issue with SC2 is not game development but bad marketing and growing frustration within the playerbase in my opinion. But that frustration is more of a perception thing. People don't play the game because it's too hard but it's easier to "justify" not playing the game if one can blame someone for it and so the dev team is the scapegoat. SC2 had many horrible decisions (like forcing things on the Korean esports scene) but the big issues were in my opinion much more present during BL/Infestor or SwarmHost times. BW and SC2 are just different games and I enjoy watching both. For SC2 (or SC3) to work it needs to marketed differently. Instead of trying to cater to casuals it should be marketed as the hardest game in esports and make people proud to play it. It's a game for the elite of the players and it probably doesn't need a single player campaign etc. (or include that to make some cash) but a good interface, good observer / replay functionality and good balance and we have that right now. SC3 should be the next step and include the micro potential of BW but add interface/qol improvements as balanced upgrades, so players can truly focus on their playstyle. Do I want to invest into auto-mining, multi-building selection, larger control groups etc. or do I want to do that myself and have more ressources available? Different but balanced styles, less rock-paper-scissor. I don't think there is a developer team that could pull that off currently but in ten years - maybe.
Totally agreed with you two. Whats inside my head? I think MarineLord is attracted by something else, not the beauty of SC2. Money may be? IDK, but gl to him.
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I think SC2 just isn't very fun to play and in many cases to watch too, and it's only getting worse for me. Just the amount of frustrating things you have to deal with in SC2 compared to BW is astonishing.
You know something is wrong when most of the game is about killing workers. Lose 10 workers without doing any other damage = you all in or die, or hope your opponent messes up. Early game cloaked banshee? You just lost a bunch of workers and the banshee is still alive, now make some static defense and die later, but better just GG now. Widow mine in your mineral line? Better pull those workers out of there, use that queen to chip on the medivac and build detection.
Didn't die to any of the above? Don't worry you can also straight up die to a build order that counters completely everything you're doing, which the enemy didn't even scout, he just randomly did and you lost.
And all these problems are exacerbated when watching pro SC2, because the viewers can already see the game ending long before it even ends. Compare this to the epic games going on at ASL right now and even the disappointing Bisu vs Sea was still more fun to watch, even after Bisu made a bunch of mistakes he still had a chance to win and the games are back and forth until the very end when one player wins after a bunch of epic fights.
Maybe David Kim just needs to watch a bit of ASL because BW sure is a lot better than the current state of SC2.
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I have been playing the BW campaign in the last days (just for fun, I never played BW seriously), and I don't understand how SC2 could be judged MORE frustrating than BW.. just the pathing is really messing up a lot of my (very non-competitive, I'm just trying to fight for Aiur  ) games.
I understand the frustration of loosing many workers due to an unspotted widow mine, but to me it's less frustrating than telling your dragoons to go to A and watching them derp around until they reach the opposite corner of the map and never make it to where you told them to go
Equally frustrating is the fact that I cannot control a big army (after 3 control groups everything it's really messed up), or that managing the production of units is extremely difficult (more than it feels right *to me*), etc. etc.
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On January 03 2017 17:55 VHbb wrote:I have been playing the BW campaign in the last days (just for fun, I never played BW seriously), and I don't understand how SC2 could be judged MORE frustrating than BW.. just the pathing is really messing up a lot of my (very non-competitive, I'm just trying to fight for Aiur ) games. I understand the frustration of loosing many workers due to an unspotted widow mine, but to me it's less frustrating than telling your dragoons to go to A and watching them derp around until they reach the opposite corner of the map and never make it to where you told them to go Equally frustrating is the fact that I cannot control a big army (after 3 control groups everything it's really messed up), or that managing the production of units is extremely difficult (more than it feels right *to me*), etc. etc.
You are comparing technical issues with design issues. The widow mine is a terrible frustrating unit, the pathing in BW is the result of the technology devs had in that time.
In BW multiplayer the game is a lot more focused on macro and base building. Bases last longer, all ins are a lot harder to pull off because of the strength of static defense. Sniping bases is harder.
The games are actually decided by broader tactical decisions involving big armies and higher tech. Where as in SC2 you could make a bunch of marines, research stim, add a few medivacs and widow mines move in and win very early in the game, something like this can very rarely happen in BW.
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On January 03 2017 18:04 Kaewins wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2017 17:55 VHbb wrote:I have been playing the BW campaign in the last days (just for fun, I never played BW seriously), and I don't understand how SC2 could be judged MORE frustrating than BW.. just the pathing is really messing up a lot of my (very non-competitive, I'm just trying to fight for Aiur ) games. I understand the frustration of loosing many workers due to an unspotted widow mine, but to me it's less frustrating than telling your dragoons to go to A and watching them derp around until they reach the opposite corner of the map and never make it to where you told them to go Equally frustrating is the fact that I cannot control a big army (after 3 control groups everything it's really messed up), or that managing the production of units is extremely difficult (more than it feels right *to me*), etc. etc. You are comparing technical issues with design issues. The widow mine is a terrible frustrating unit, the pathing in BW is the result of the technology devs had in that time. In BW multiplayer the game is a lot more focused on macro and base building. Bases last longer, all ins are a lot harder to pull off because of the strength of static defense. Sniping bases is harder. The games are actually decided by broader tactical decisions involving big armies and higher tech. Where as in SC2 you could make a bunch of marines, research stim, add a few medivacs and widow mines move in and win very early in the game, something like this can very rarely happen in BW.
You are going a little far there. This can very well happen in BW and it does every now and then. Of course the pros are good enough to defend some 85% of the time but the other 15% succed. There are plenty of TvZ games which end because of a quick medic+marine+firebat push and the Z doesnt have enough static D.
As much as I prefer BW over SC2 you should still try to be fair here. There are also plenty of frustrating harassment options in BW. Mutas against a P who did not go for Corsairs are really hard to deal with. Thats the reason why almost all Ps go Corsairs every game. Reaver can also end the game early. At least with Reavers there is a >50% chance the scarab wont do anything... Dont know if that makes it any less frustrating.
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Belgium9949 Posts
On January 01 2017 19:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 14:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 13:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On January 01 2017 11:06 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 01 2017 11:02 chipmonklord17 wrote:On January 01 2017 10:49 billynasty wrote:
seems to me it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to pick say 5-10 SC2 pro players & have a little conference with them to find out what the players have to say about game design & balance. Talk to Jaedong, talk to Flash, talk to anyone who's anybody in the game & get the ship turned around in the right direction. I know Blizz supposedly had a conference before the launch of LOTV where various personalities attended, but i dont know if theyve ever looked at speaking with 'game czars'. They've admitted they dont play their game that much, perhaps speaking to those who have would be beneficial for everyone. Except for when what Flash says is the opposite of what Jaedong says. And that's slightly different than what Scarlett says, but that idea goes well with what sOs said. But those things would contradict what Neeb says. Sub in names for anyone you feel would belong on this panel and you'll see the problem. Everyone is going to see the game and balance differently, to the point where two people will say the complete opposite things both believing they're true Which is exactly why you need an effective design team that can actually design the game, understands what the game needs, and knows when an idea is good or bad. I think chipmonklord is saying that no matter who you have consulting on the design of the game, no one will be completely happy with any changes the dev team implements. hell, I'm sure even staff on Blizzard will disagree on changes made. The challenge isn't about asking for pro's input, which they have done in the past, its trying to change the game enough to satisfy all the different stakeholders involved. And then you have the community, which has a huge disparage of opinions on TL/reddit/Bnet. Along with some personalities with a modicum of influence (e.g. Avilo), you will inevitably start seeing a huge spectrum of opinions on certain changes. You say they need 'an effective design team' and I would argue they have one. Sure their changes don't mesh well with everyone, but you know the old saying. 'Can't please everyone.' My point was really both of those things. A strong design team is the first step. A group of people who are going to look at the numbers, not what they feel based on their race and their experience in the professional gaming world. The flow, in my opinion of change needs to go from the design team to the pros, not the other way around. It shouldn't be "what do you think" it should be "we're going to do this, do you like the direction". IMO the first big mistake Blizzard made was listening to pro players too much and patching slowly. I think if you take a Riot approach and patch frequently then getting a lot of pro feedback is a good thing as the game is ever changing. Patching slowly adds an element of entitlement in the community that they've found a "problem" and a solution themselves but "Blizzard aren't listening". Now in addition to not feeling like the changes mesh with you you can also feel "fuck Blizzard for not listening to ME" But something actually on topic, I'm going to miss MLord in the scene, he's a great player. Hope he'll go the Myungsik route When there's a greater goal in mind like making starcraft 2 more fun or making it the best it can possibly be, anyone intelligent enough to dominate the sport should be intelligent enough to cooperate with other people towards a greater goal, without worrying about short term things like balance, especially if such people were actually hired and had a real job with blizzard blizzard should've hired a bunch of sc experts in 2005 (progamers or ex-progamers with an eye for game design) when they started designing starcraft 2 and have them on the payroll full-time to playtest the shit out of their game and make it as fun as possible. Then kept those people on payroll to be as good as possible at sc2 without actually participating in tournaments and keep improving the game. Considering the benefits it wouldve been a worthy investment in my opinion, as opposed to the situation right now where some (most? idk really) people at blizzard havent played sc2 for years, let alone play at a high enough level to understand the game.. and good luck MarineLord :D
Yeah seriously, this is what annoys me the hardest.
The basic stuff that was in the first few SC2 patches just revealed how scrubby their playtesters were. Any reasonable playtester with SC knowledge wouldve started out with testing all the Warpgate rush and bunker rush builds...
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Mech is better, terran is reasonably good in all matchups, and the game is pacy and exciting. What exactly made marlinelord tick? I haven't touched the game in years, especially in hots as a zerg player before switching to terran, it was god awful, i went back to warcraft 3 untill recently because in my opinion the game was not worth playing, now it's the polar opposite.
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EPT
