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Scarlett has a Guinness World Record! - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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RuiBarbO
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States1340 Posts
November 14 2016 22:53 GMT
#61
Did I miss something, where is the actual controversy here

Also congrats Scarlett!
Can someone please explain/how water falls with no rain?
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
November 14 2016 23:00 GMT
#62
On November 15 2016 07:53 RuiBarbO wrote:
Did I miss something, where is the actual controversy here

Also congrats Scarlett!


There isn't much controversy just a lot of people that don't read the thread assume shit has gone down and comment on how they knew this thread would go to shit.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
November 14 2016 23:14 GMT
#63
On November 14 2016 17:50 Jizz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 12:05 Terranist wrote:

it is documented that men have improved testosterone, reaction times, and spatial awareness compared to women and this is undoubtedly an advantage in gaming. whether or not this applies to Scarlett however is a different discussion.


On the other hand women are generally thought of as more inclined toward multitasking, organization and intuition, skills essential to starcraft. Someone should get some identical m/f twins and make them grind ladder in the name of science


Science will still not agree with you. It's called sample. Sample of two is not enough for conclusions.
royalroadweed
Profile Joined April 2013
United States8301 Posts
November 14 2016 23:28 GMT
#64
On November 15 2016 02:26 DickMcFanny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 02:13 Little-Chimp wrote:
On November 15 2016 02:06 salle wrote:
The problem with this debate, in particular, or any male versus female gaming in general, is that people are mostly just putting forth opinions but they are presenting them as facts usually mistaking correlations for causations. So is there any study we could look at that shows how much genes matter in RTS gaming aptitude? And if there was did they compare it to the impact of hormone levels, or the social aspect, for which group is it acceptable to spend all day sitting infront of a computer playing games, or if the competitive drive is down to gender or if it's a social construct tought to us from a very young age. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think anyone of us here has the answers to these questions. Instead what I think we all have are opinions, and even then these opinions are also most likely made up by our subconscious to justify our own emotions (whichever emotion that may be) on the topic.

So please, let us just stop debating something that none of us actually know anything about and let the people who want to congratulate Scarlet for this prestigious recognition do so. Thank you.

EDIT: PS Even if you do have scientific articles on the subject, this is still not the thread for this discussion.


How do you make an entire post telling people they shouldn't speak because they don't know... then include a caveat at the end saying even if you do know, don't speak anyways.

If you want people to stfu on the subject just say it up front tbh



He's from Sweden.

That explains a lot.
"Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"
stardog
Profile Joined August 2011
556 Posts
November 15 2016 00:04 GMT
#65
On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote:
It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it.

Well, you're a cynical one after all. Have some whiskey, it helps.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
November 15 2016 00:16 GMT
#66
On November 15 2016 09:04 stardog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote:
It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it.

Well, you're a cynical one after all. Have some whiskey, it helps.


To be fair, he isn't alone. I knew this thread was BOUND to dive into how she's transgender and how that affects the integrity of the record blah blah blah....
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
stardog
Profile Joined August 2011
556 Posts
November 15 2016 00:27 GMT
#67
On November 15 2016 09:16 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 09:04 stardog wrote:
On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote:
It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it.

Well, you're a cynical one after all. Have some whiskey, it helps.


To be fair, he isn't alone. I knew this thread was BOUND to dive into how she's transgender and how that affects the integrity of the record blah blah blah....

Yeah, and yet somehow this predictability doesn't make it less disappointing.
Swisslink
Profile Joined March 2011
2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 00:52:03
November 15 2016 00:51 GMT
#68
On November 14 2016 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 13:38 LtCalley wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender.


exactly...i could choose to identify as a woman and break the state benchpress record. where does the line get drawn?


Then do it. But something tells me you'd rather identify as a man than break the state bench press record, so you won't. And we both know it.

Gender identity isn't a game, and if you felt you were a woman inside and wanted to bench, then all the power to you.


Well, in a eSports-context everything is fine, of course and Scarlett really deserves everything she has done. In eSports, gender should not determine whether you are succesful or not, because it's not a physical sports. It's really a great achievement and she has done great for years now. I hope she keeps up the pace in future years - in a good year she should be able to make it to Blizzcon easily, imo.


However, I hope you see the potential issues in Track&Field Athletics competition for example if you allow transgender people to compete in the women's competitions. There are already issues with women who are just "more masculin" than others and they just wreck the entire competition because, purely from a physical standpoint, the rest of the competitors just stands no chance.

And hard as it sounds: If you allow this in physical sports, there will be people who abuse this ruling. Athlets do pretty much everything to be succesful. Handicapped people torture themselves to win the Paralympics, at the Olympics athlets risk their entire carreer plus their lives to improve their results by the use of Performance-Enhancing Drugs and in pretty much every sports the athlets abuse the smalles possible holes in the rulings to get an advantage. I completely agree that in a reasonable world there should be no issues. I also agree that it's horrible for the transgender community. Unfortunately you just can't avoid this, tbh.

TL;TR The transgender community suffers because the professional sports environment is just full of total dickheads. I am really not against equal rights for the transgender community, I'm just entirely pessimistic towards the professional sports scene and expect literally everything of an athlet if he sees any chance of getting an unfair advantage.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
November 15 2016 01:01 GMT
#69
On November 15 2016 09:16 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 09:04 stardog wrote:
On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote:
It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it.

Well, you're a cynical one after all. Have some whiskey, it helps.


To be fair, he isn't alone. I knew this thread was BOUND to dive into how she's transgender and how that affects the integrity of the record blah blah blah....


What's your point? Of course a discussion is going to move towards the point of friction. Obvious doesn't equate to invalid. You're acting as if avoiding the obvious question and not participating in the debate only to later come out and post that you knew this was going to happen is a really noble and intelligent thing to do. From my point of view those are the worst posts in this thread. I knew this thread was going to be shit, a nice self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think esports is pretty nice.
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
November 15 2016 01:23 GMT
#70
On November 15 2016 08:28 royalroadweed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 02:26 DickMcFanny wrote:
On November 15 2016 02:13 Little-Chimp wrote:
On November 15 2016 02:06 salle wrote:
The problem with this debate, in particular, or any male versus female gaming in general, is that people are mostly just putting forth opinions but they are presenting them as facts usually mistaking correlations for causations. So is there any study we could look at that shows how much genes matter in RTS gaming aptitude? And if there was did they compare it to the impact of hormone levels, or the social aspect, for which group is it acceptable to spend all day sitting infront of a computer playing games, or if the competitive drive is down to gender or if it's a social construct tought to us from a very young age. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think anyone of us here has the answers to these questions. Instead what I think we all have are opinions, and even then these opinions are also most likely made up by our subconscious to justify our own emotions (whichever emotion that may be) on the topic.

So please, let us just stop debating something that none of us actually know anything about and let the people who want to congratulate Scarlet for this prestigious recognition do so. Thank you.

EDIT: PS Even if you do have scientific articles on the subject, this is still not the thread for this discussion.


How do you make an entire post telling people they shouldn't speak because they don't know... then include a caveat at the end saying even if you do know, don't speak anyways.

If you want people to stfu on the subject just say it up front tbh



He's from Sweden.

That explains a lot.


I concur.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Kitai
Profile Joined June 2012
United States886 Posts
November 15 2016 02:26 GMT
#71
Congrats to Scarlett on her accomplishments. That's a pretty hefty chunk of change for being exceedingly good at a videogame. (Jealous face)
"You know, I don't care if soO got 100 second places in a row. Anyone who doesn't think that he's going to win blizzcon watching this series is a fool" - Artosis, Blizzcon 2014 soO vs TaeJa
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
November 15 2016 02:36 GMT
#72
On November 15 2016 10:01 Saechiis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 09:16 DinoMight wrote:
On November 15 2016 09:04 stardog wrote:
On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote:
It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it.

Well, you're a cynical one after all. Have some whiskey, it helps.


To be fair, he isn't alone. I knew this thread was BOUND to dive into how she's transgender and how that affects the integrity of the record blah blah blah....


What's your point? Of course a discussion is going to move towards the point of friction. Obvious doesn't equate to invalid. You're acting as if avoiding the obvious question and not participating in the debate only to later come out and post that you knew this was going to happen is a really noble and intelligent thing to do. From my point of view those are the worst posts in this thread. I knew this thread was going to be shit, a nice self-fulfilling prophecy.


My point is that it SHOULDN'T be a point of friction.

But, predictably, it is.

Just congratulate her and move on. Maybe if we're more accepting and don't stop to question the ONLY noteworthy female e-sport athlete at every turn more girls will... I dunno... want to compete?
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 15 2016 02:57 GMT
#73
On November 15 2016 09:51 Swisslink wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:38 LtCalley wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender.


exactly...i could choose to identify as a woman and break the state benchpress record. where does the line get drawn?


Then do it. But something tells me you'd rather identify as a man than break the state bench press record, so you won't. And we both know it.

Gender identity isn't a game, and if you felt you were a woman inside and wanted to bench, then all the power to you.


Well, in a eSports-context everything is fine, of course and Scarlett really deserves everything she has done. In eSports, gender should not determine whether you are succesful or not, because it's not a physical sports. It's really a great achievement and she has done great for years now. I hope she keeps up the pace in future years - in a good year she should be able to make it to Blizzcon easily, imo.


However, I hope you see the potential issues in Track&Field Athletics competition for example if you allow transgender people to compete in the women's competitions. There are already issues with women who are just "more masculin" than others and they just wreck the entire competition because, purely from a physical standpoint, the rest of the competitors just stands no chance.

And hard as it sounds: If you allow this in physical sports, there will be people who abuse this ruling. Athlets do pretty much everything to be succesful. Handicapped people torture themselves to win the Paralympics, at the Olympics athlets risk their entire carreer plus their lives to improve their results by the use of Performance-Enhancing Drugs and in pretty much every sports the athlets abuse the smalles possible holes in the rulings to get an advantage. I completely agree that in a reasonable world there should be no issues. I also agree that it's horrible for the transgender community. Unfortunately you just can't avoid this, tbh.

TL;TR The transgender community suffers because the professional sports environment is just full of total dickheads. I am really not against equal rights for the transgender community, I'm just entirely pessimistic towards the professional sports scene and expect literally everything of an athlet if he sees any chance of getting an unfair advantage.

In your Track and Field example, why would it not also be unfair for men or women who were simply born bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than other men or women just like how you assume that it would be unfair for someone who is male-to-female transgender? It is not unfair for someone who is faster, etc. than other people in the sport when the point of the sport is to be faster than other people, therefore is also completely fair for a transgender person to compete against others of the same (or any) gender regardless of what innate skill or physical ability they posses.

This argument has been beaten over and over, yet I still don't see the logic in it. If someone is born bigger or smaller than other people, it should never be seen as unfair to other people who choose to compete, and especially so when focusing on a person's gender identity which has zero affect on their skill to perform and compete in a sport.

Women who are have more muscle than average aren't "an issue", men who have more muscle aren't "an issue".
The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 03:15:13
November 15 2016 03:14 GMT
#74
On November 15 2016 11:57 blunderfulguy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 09:51 Swisslink wrote:
On November 14 2016 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:38 LtCalley wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender.


exactly...i could choose to identify as a woman and break the state benchpress record. where does the line get drawn?


Then do it. But something tells me you'd rather identify as a man than break the state bench press record, so you won't. And we both know it.

Gender identity isn't a game, and if you felt you were a woman inside and wanted to bench, then all the power to you.


Well, in a eSports-context everything is fine, of course and Scarlett really deserves everything she has done. In eSports, gender should not determine whether you are succesful or not, because it's not a physical sports. It's really a great achievement and she has done great for years now. I hope she keeps up the pace in future years - in a good year she should be able to make it to Blizzcon easily, imo.


However, I hope you see the potential issues in Track&Field Athletics competition for example if you allow transgender people to compete in the women's competitions. There are already issues with women who are just "more masculin" than others and they just wreck the entire competition because, purely from a physical standpoint, the rest of the competitors just stands no chance.

And hard as it sounds: If you allow this in physical sports, there will be people who abuse this ruling. Athlets do pretty much everything to be succesful. Handicapped people torture themselves to win the Paralympics, at the Olympics athlets risk their entire carreer plus their lives to improve their results by the use of Performance-Enhancing Drugs and in pretty much every sports the athlets abuse the smalles possible holes in the rulings to get an advantage. I completely agree that in a reasonable world there should be no issues. I also agree that it's horrible for the transgender community. Unfortunately you just can't avoid this, tbh.

TL;TR The transgender community suffers because the professional sports environment is just full of total dickheads. I am really not against equal rights for the transgender community, I'm just entirely pessimistic towards the professional sports scene and expect literally everything of an athlet if he sees any chance of getting an unfair advantage.

In your Track and Field example, why would it not also be unfair for men or women who were simply born bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than other men or women just like how you assume that it would be unfair for someone who is male-to-female transgender? It is not unfair for someone who is faster, etc. than other people in the sport when the point of the sport is to be faster than other people, therefore is also completely fair for a transgender person to compete against others of the same (or any) gender regardless of what innate skill or physical ability they posses.

This argument has been beaten over and over, yet I still don't see the logic in it. If someone is born bigger or smaller than other people, it should never be seen as unfair to other people who choose to compete, and especially so when focusing on a person's gender identity which has zero affect on their skill to perform and compete in a sport.

Women who are have more muscle than average aren't "an issue", men who have more muscle aren't "an issue".
The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.


If you go down that route then there shouldn't be men/women only competitions at all i guess? Sucks to be a woman then quite frankly. Or are you saying that there aren't enough transgender people who are interested in competing (like there probably are not enough people who simply have an advantage over the current top athletes "because they are born bigger") for it to make a real difference?


I didn't read the comments in this thread, but as long as you discuss something in a civial manner you should be allowed to discuss anything. I respect scarlett's life decisions but it is also legitimate to discuss the obvious topic at hand as long as it is done in a respectful way.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Dumbledore
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden725 Posts
November 15 2016 03:44 GMT
#75
On November 15 2016 11:57 blunderfulguy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 09:51 Swisslink wrote:
On November 14 2016 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:38 LtCalley wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender.


exactly...i could choose to identify as a woman and break the state benchpress record. where does the line get drawn?


Then do it. But something tells me you'd rather identify as a man than break the state bench press record, so you won't. And we both know it.

Gender identity isn't a game, and if you felt you were a woman inside and wanted to bench, then all the power to you.


Well, in a eSports-context everything is fine, of course and Scarlett really deserves everything she has done. In eSports, gender should not determine whether you are succesful or not, because it's not a physical sports. It's really a great achievement and she has done great for years now. I hope she keeps up the pace in future years - in a good year she should be able to make it to Blizzcon easily, imo.


However, I hope you see the potential issues in Track&Field Athletics competition for example if you allow transgender people to compete in the women's competitions. There are already issues with women who are just "more masculin" than others and they just wreck the entire competition because, purely from a physical standpoint, the rest of the competitors just stands no chance.

And hard as it sounds: If you allow this in physical sports, there will be people who abuse this ruling. Athlets do pretty much everything to be succesful. Handicapped people torture themselves to win the Paralympics, at the Olympics athlets risk their entire carreer plus their lives to improve their results by the use of Performance-Enhancing Drugs and in pretty much every sports the athlets abuse the smalles possible holes in the rulings to get an advantage. I completely agree that in a reasonable world there should be no issues. I also agree that it's horrible for the transgender community. Unfortunately you just can't avoid this, tbh.

TL;TR The transgender community suffers because the professional sports environment is just full of total dickheads. I am really not against equal rights for the transgender community, I'm just entirely pessimistic towards the professional sports scene and expect literally everything of an athlet if he sees any chance of getting an unfair advantage.

In your Track and Field example, why would it not also be unfair for men or women who were simply born bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than other men or women just like how you assume that it would be unfair for someone who is male-to-female transgender? It is not unfair for someone who is faster, etc. than other people in the sport when the point of the sport is to be faster than other people, therefore is also completely fair for a transgender person to compete against others of the same (or any) gender regardless of what innate skill or physical ability they posses.

This argument has been beaten over and over, yet I still don't see the logic in it. If someone is born bigger or smaller than other people, it should never be seen as unfair to other people who choose to compete, and especially so when focusing on a person's gender identity which has zero affect on their skill to perform and compete in a sport.

Women who are have more muscle than average aren't "an issue", men who have more muscle aren't "an issue".
The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.


Are you trolling? Many sports advocate for this. It's called a "weight class".
Have a nice day ;)
BonitiilloO
Profile Joined June 2013
Dominican Republic627 Posts
November 15 2016 04:17 GMT
#76
In this spirit, the IOC Consensus Meeting agreed the following guidelines to be taken into account by sports organisations when determining eligibility to compete in male and female competition:

1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.

2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:

2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.
2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).
2.3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.


Edit: According to this she shouldnt have won anything if this rules were apply to gaming.

Source
How may help u?
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 04:30:31
November 15 2016 04:30 GMT
#77
This should be documented as a case of off-seasonitis. What should have been a fairly incontrovertible thread and a well earned congratulations has turned into an argument.

Congratulations Scarlett.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9859 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 06:38:08
November 15 2016 04:54 GMT
#78
285th highest in esports, I think the best woman in chess in ranked around 120-150~ in the world S:

Still a nice achievement to have, so good job to Scarlett on that. I'll be honest that I'm not a fan of the controversy surrounding records in these kind of situations... It's like if black people had good genes to play basketball, and then I'm born black but I do the Michael Jackson thing, and then I get a record for being the best white/chinese/indian/whatever race I choose.

I get that in this situation it obviously wasn't done to get the record, but rather to feel happier about one's life... But I dunno, when it's something like this, the intention shouldn't matter, only the outcome. To be clear, I have absolutely no issue with people making decisions like Scarlett which make their lives better, all the power to them. But once due to these decisions you're winning rewards/awards for being categorized differently, I don't agree with it.

edit: Also, I don't blame Scarlett, I figure she didn't come to them and ask to have the record.
In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 15 2016 04:55 GMT
#79
On November 15 2016 12:14 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2016 11:57 blunderfulguy wrote:
On November 15 2016 09:51 Swisslink wrote:
On November 14 2016 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:38 LtCalley wrote:
On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender.


exactly...i could choose to identify as a woman and break the state benchpress record. where does the line get drawn?


Then do it. But something tells me you'd rather identify as a man than break the state bench press record, so you won't. And we both know it.

Gender identity isn't a game, and if you felt you were a woman inside and wanted to bench, then all the power to you.


Well, in a eSports-context everything is fine, of course and Scarlett really deserves everything she has done. In eSports, gender should not determine whether you are succesful or not, because it's not a physical sports. It's really a great achievement and she has done great for years now. I hope she keeps up the pace in future years - in a good year she should be able to make it to Blizzcon easily, imo.


However, I hope you see the potential issues in Track&Field Athletics competition for example if you allow transgender people to compete in the women's competitions. There are already issues with women who are just "more masculin" than others and they just wreck the entire competition because, purely from a physical standpoint, the rest of the competitors just stands no chance.

And hard as it sounds: If you allow this in physical sports, there will be people who abuse this ruling. Athlets do pretty much everything to be succesful. Handicapped people torture themselves to win the Paralympics, at the Olympics athlets risk their entire carreer plus their lives to improve their results by the use of Performance-Enhancing Drugs and in pretty much every sports the athlets abuse the smalles possible holes in the rulings to get an advantage. I completely agree that in a reasonable world there should be no issues. I also agree that it's horrible for the transgender community. Unfortunately you just can't avoid this, tbh.

TL;TR The transgender community suffers because the professional sports environment is just full of total dickheads. I am really not against equal rights for the transgender community, I'm just entirely pessimistic towards the professional sports scene and expect literally everything of an athlet if he sees any chance of getting an unfair advantage.

In your Track and Field example, why would it not also be unfair for men or women who were simply born bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than other men or women just like how you assume that it would be unfair for someone who is male-to-female transgender? It is not unfair for someone who is faster, etc. than other people in the sport when the point of the sport is to be faster than other people, therefore is also completely fair for a transgender person to compete against others of the same (or any) gender regardless of what innate skill or physical ability they posses.

This argument has been beaten over and over, yet I still don't see the logic in it. If someone is born bigger or smaller than other people, it should never be seen as unfair to other people who choose to compete, and especially so when focusing on a person's gender identity which has zero affect on their skill to perform and compete in a sport.

Women who are have more muscle than average aren't "an issue", men who have more muscle aren't "an issue".
The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.


If you go down that route then there shouldn't be men/women only competitions at all i guess? Sucks to be a woman then quite frankly. Or are you saying that there aren't enough transgender people who are interested in competing (like there probably are not enough people who simply have an advantage over the current top athletes "because they are born bigger") for it to make a real difference?


I didn't read the comments in this thread, but as long as you discuss something in a civial manner you should be allowed to discuss anything. I respect scarlett's life decisions but it is also legitimate to discuss the obvious topic at hand as long as it is done in a respectful way.

No I didn't mean to imply that. If a man is born bigger than most men and goes into a male athlete competition, he has an edge over the majority of other men, but it is irrelevant inside the competitive space where all men there are expected to compete against one other at an above average level. The same goes for women. The same should go for everyone, even someone who is transgender. As for male- and female-only tournaments, they exist for different reasons in esports than do for physicality-based sports such as wrestling or sword fighting.

I'm trying to keep everything from getting horribly lengthy, so my apologies if I don't do a good job explaining what I mean.
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FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9859 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 06:36:41
November 15 2016 05:03 GMT
#80
On November 15 2016 13:17 SC2BF3Love wrote:
In this spirit, the IOC Consensus Meeting agreed the following guidelines to be taken into account by sports organisations when determining eligibility to compete in male and female competition:

1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.

2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:

2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.
2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).
2.3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.


Edit: According to this she shouldnt have won anything if this rules were apply to gaming.

Source


Yeah, this makes an argument based on empirical evidence, I think it's also wrong on a philosophical level. I don't think it's right that women who become men can compete in men categories. Just because the chance of schooling the competition is smaller shouldn't change anything.

While testosterone levels are a significant difference between men and women, as shown in cycling with EPO's, having fixed numbers for substances in the body is quite possibly the dumbest policy that can be had. Truly, that IOC policy is one of the worst things I've ever seen (so easily abused), no wonder they're becoming a laughing stock of the world of sports. WADA has way more integrity in the way it does its work. People might dislike WADA and USADA since they might screw many peoples' idols, but man, do they do a great job (albeit at a high cost).
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