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On November 19 2016 00:29 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's as if Trump's victory vindicated all the bottom feeders into thinking that their scummy kneejerk reactions are valid and relevant. If this thread had happened last month I don't think literally every post would be related to whether she's a "real" girl.
I will defer to Jacenoob's intelligent response to your shitpost. There's all these people trying to have a discussion in this thread spending a lot of their time to give a measured response. And then there's responses like yours that ignore all the objectivity people put forth and just goes straight to
"I have the moral highground Anakin! Therefore I don't have to use argumentation to support my opinion and I can just call people names."
Thank you to the people in this thread for having an open mind and forming their own opinion based on the merit of logic <3
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Female E-Sports > Scarlett 4-0 R.I.P Congrats
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On November 19 2016 02:41 Jacenoob wrote:
But the "Guniness World Record", this is a topic that needs to be discussed sooner or later, and it is not an obvious one. To be honest, I think listing Scarlett under the "female" category in this specific circumstance is just wrong. It is an error by the Guinness Book and people call that error out. That is why the "real girl" issue is brought up, not because Trump won and now everyone has turned into a manic sexist and racist.
It is extremely likely that males have a competitive advantage in Esports similar to other sports, even though probably not as big as in physical competition, almost all results indicate that such an advantage exists. Of course we don't know that yet for sure, but it seems like the most reasonable asumption given the evidence.
So far the SC2-scene is not big enough to have well-paying female only tournaments yet, so Scarlett's gender can be completely ignored for all intents and purposes regarding tournaments, and a Guiness Book entry is no big deal. But for another Esport that time will come, there will be Female only tournaments with a big prize pool and there will be MtF being really good at that particular game. And then we will eventually have to answer the same question. Do you let MtF compete in these tournaments or should they participate with the other males? I think that it would simply for the other women be unfair to let MtF compete against them.
So I know this conversation just keeps happening again and again and again, but I guess that's why I'm surprised we keep coming back to the same place each time. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying you'd be fine if this award went to a non-trans (cis) woman, but that it is disingenuous to give it to Scarlett because she has an unfair advantage relative to other women. Now, I'd encourage you to read literally any thread that has involved Scarlett to see how other people have critiqued that line of thinking in the past. If that doesn't appeal, here's why I personally do not find it convincing.
First, it's based on this kind of sketchy notion of the advantage that being a man brings to competitive gaming. You say "It is extremely likely that males have a competitive advantage in Esports similar to other sports," but, as has been discussed to death on this very forum, that isn't actually something you can take for granted. Some people assume that because men win most tournaments, men have a competitive advantage, but that's a hard claim to verify when the vast majority of people who play Starcraft are male + Show Spoiler +evidently this isn't clear to some, in which case I would suggest typing "census" into the TL search bar
Which brings us to issue number two: what the award actually signifies. We're interested in how women fare in esports because there are so few of them, and there are so few of them because... well, there is that nagging concern that a lot of women + Show Spoiler + just don't find the scene all that welcoming + Show Spoiler +I'm sure there are many men who would, at this moment, want to make it very clear that they have no problem with women playing competitively. Sadly, this does not a comfortable playing space make.
Which is why I think the record is perfectly well-deserved.
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And all this time I just feel empathy for Scarlett who doesn't want all this attention.
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Important to get some girls opinions on this
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Letting women speak for themselves about something that mostly just concerns them? What a strange concept, SGTK.
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No actually not. It doesn't matter who presents the argument
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Why use the gender argument in this? Why would a female opinion be worth more than a male opinion? Well, it could actually be worth more if she articulated an opinion based on her personal experience in tournament play. But she doesn't do that. All she does is point out her gender, claim sexism and consider the discussion won. I don't understand. It is not working and it will never work. Trying to smother a valid opinion, trying to win a discussion by falsely claiming the opposition is sexist will achieve nothing in the long run.
Her post is just bad. She claims Reddit SC2 is generally sexist? That is not true. Reddit itself has a of openly sexist subreddits and also a lot of upvoted sexist comments in the standard subs. There are also a lot of sexist gaming subs, but I absolutely cannot remember a single sexist or transphobic Reddit SC2 thread from the past 2 years. The time of rape jokes in this community is long gone.
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This conversation in general might be a bit edgy and/or uncomfortable or offensive but honestly this type of situation is fairly new for the human race as far as completely changing gender. If you think its "simple" yet people are discussing it in length its probably not simple. Clearly discussions need to be had if people are discussing it. Congrats to scarlett!
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oh, it's one of those "but I have the right to express my opinion too threads" sigh
gratz Scarlett
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I think Scarlett being raised as a boy (presumably) has a lot more influence on her being an excellent StarCraft player than the biological differences between XYs and XXs.
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On November 19 2016 07:36 Jacenoob wrote:Why use the gender argument in this? Why would a female opinion be worth more than a male opinion? Well, it could actually be worth more if she articulated an opinion based on her personal experience in tournament play. But she doesn't do that. All she does is point out her gender, claim sexism and consider the discussion won. I don't understand. It is not working and it will never work. Trying to smother a valid opinion, trying to win a discussion by falsely claiming the opposition is sexist will achieve nothing in the long run. Her post is just bad. She claims Reddit SC2 is generally sexist? That is not true. Reddit itself has a of openly sexist subreddits and also a lot of upvoted sexist comments in the standard subs. There are also a lot of sexist gaming subs, but I absolutely cannot remember a single sexist or transphobic Reddit SC2 thread from the past 2 years. The time of rape jokes in this community is long gone.
Maybe use the gender argument because the only people who are affected by Scarlett getting the record are women, ergo shouldn't women have the final say on whether Scarlett gets the record?
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I don't really have an opinion on the gender question, but I do find paradoxical the existence of both the theory that says that "boys and girls are equal in gaming" that a lot of people here like to throw around, and the Guiness record for female eSports earnings.
Either it's the same, or it's not.
I personally am inclined to think that the Guiness female record is the dumb thing that shouldn't exist, not Scarlett winning Starcraft 2 games.
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On November 19 2016 11:37 ZenithM wrote:
I don't really have an opinion on the gender question, but I do find paradoxical the existence of both the theory that says that "boys and girls are equal in gaming" that a lot of people here like to throw around, and the Guiness record for female eSports earnings.
Either it's the same, or it's not.
I personally am inclined to think that the Guiness female record is the dumb thing that shouldn't exist, not Scarlett winning Starcraft 2 games.
My impression is that the "boys and girls are equal in gaming" thing is better put as "boys have no natural advantage over girls in gaming." Clearly boys are way more successful in gaming; what's not self-evident is why.
The Guiness record exists because boys are way more successful than girls in gaming, generally. No one is disputing that boys are more successful. What some people feel the need to bring up is that Scarlett is a trans person, and that this should for some reason invalidate her winning the award.
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I mean could Flash and Jaedong could decide that they're female and get a record for greatest female eSports rivalry?
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Congratulations Scarlett! I'm sorry you have to see all the misogynistic and transphobic comments here. Everyone is a Grandmaster in gender essentialism and evolutionary psychology on the internet, apparently.
Thanks for representing women in eSports, you're an awesome and talented individual that I will always look up to.
Edit: This thread is absolutely toxic in some places. Thank you to the people talking common sense and decency. <3
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On November 19 2016 05:25 RuiBarbO wrote:First, it's based on this kind of sketchy notion of the advantage that being a man brings to competitive gaming. You say "It is extremely likely that males have a competitive advantage in Esports similar to other sports," but, as has been discussed to death on this very forum, that isn't actually something you can take for granted. Some people assume that because men win most tournaments, men have a competitive advantage, but that's a hard claim to verify when the vast majority of people who play Starcraft are male + Show Spoiler +evidently this isn't clear to some, in which case I would suggest typing "census" into the TL search bar . Some try to overcome this by arguing that the reason there are so many more men than women is because women are turned off by the competitive nature of the game, but I just don't see the evidence or the rationale for that. And it's contradicted by the fact that plenty of women have played physical sports competitively - so clearly, competition isn't necessarily much of a deterrent.
The empirical data of males having a competitive advantage in Esports is absolutely overwhelming. The consistent almost 100% male domination cannot be explained by social factors or number of players. It goes through all games, and has so for a decently long period of time. I think arguing against so much data is purely ideology and not evidence based.
On November 19 2016 05:25 RuiBarbO wrote:
And then there is the lingering problem that trans women are often not biologically equivalent (whatever that means; hormones, physiology, or something else) to cis men anyway - so implying that Scarlett is a "biological male" (or whatever language you choose to employ) is probably just wrong.
This assumes that males have a competitve advantage, and I agree with that. Maybe trans women do no have that edge, we have very little data on that. But it would mean that Scarlett is a massive outlier for being so succesful.
On November 19 2016 05:25 RuiBarbO wrote:Which brings us to issue number two: what the award actually signifies. We're interested in how women fare in esports because there are so few of them, and there are so few of them because... well, there is that nagging concern that a lot of women + Show Spoiler + just don't find the scene all that welcoming + Show Spoiler +I'm sure there are many men who would, at this moment, want to make it very clear that they have no problem with women playing competitively. Sadly, this does not a comfortable playing space make. . In light of this nagging concern, it's helpful to know how people who identify as women are doing overall. It's not just about their ability to win (at least, if I'm understanding the terms of the record) - it's also a matter of how easily they find teams and sponsors and their willingness to stay in the game despite heightened pressure (which, if I'm remembering that first Scarlett fan club thread correctly, certainly applies here). Which is why I think the record is perfectly well-deserved.
First of all I very much agree that the gaming scene in general can be absolutely toxic towards women. I am constantly disgusted by Twitch chat on female pros in HS and MtG. And I don't even want to talk about other games, a lot of them are way worse.
But I disagree with the conclusion. People will see the contradiction, and people will call it out. Scarlett does have an unfair advantage over other women so she should not be eligible for this prize.
Giving her the prize does more harm than good. User "barcode" has put it nicely - this is a completely new situation for mankind and Scarlett is a pioneer on uncharted territory. And it cannot simply be handled easily by wishful thinking. We need to call it what it is and not we want it to be. I think in the end Esports is competitive in nature, and needs to be held by competitive standards like all other sports.
Edit:
+ Show Spoiler +You people absolutely deserve each other. On November 19 2016 10:43 Penev wrote:
oh, it's one of those "but I have the right to express my opinion too threads" sigh gratz Scarlett On November 19 2016 11:54 Larkin wrote:
I mean could Flash and Jaedong could decide that they're female and get a record for greatest female eSports rivalry? On November 19 2016 12:24 zyce wrote:
Congratulations Scarlett! I'm sorry you have to see all the misogynistic and transphobic comments here. Everyone is a Grandmaster in gender essentialism and evolutionary psychology on the internet, apparently.
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The consistent almost 100% male domination cannot be explained by social factors or number of players.
It absolutely - 100% - can be explained by social factors like systemic and institutionalized sexism, gender roles, harassment, stereotypes, etc. This is something that many people need to learn in a university setting or some form of dedicated study and open-mindedness, and can't be taught on a message board about eSports.
Folks are going to have to agree to disagree, as I don't foresee anyone changing their opinions on this matter if they've already committed to posting about it. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. I'm definitely sad to see this in 2016, that's for sure.
No, men and women aren't "equal". No, they aren't treated equally. The question is "why?" and the answers are far more complicated than "men are better than women at the sports I watch".
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On November 19 2016 11:50 RuiBarbO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 11:37 ZenithM wrote:
I don't really have an opinion on the gender question, but I do find paradoxical the existence of both the theory that says that "boys and girls are equal in gaming" that a lot of people here like to throw around, and the Guiness record for female eSports earnings.
Either it's the same, or it's not.
I personally am inclined to think that the Guiness female record is the dumb thing that shouldn't exist, not Scarlett winning Starcraft 2 games. My impression is that the "boys and girls are equal in gaming" thing is better put as "boys have no natural advantage over girls in gaming." Clearly boys are way more successful in gaming; what's not self-evident is why. The Guiness record exists because boys are way more successful than girls in gaming, generally. No one is disputing that boys are more successful. What some people feel the need to bring up is that Scarlett is a trans person, and that this should for some reason invalidate her winning the award.
As long as you allow the distinction to be made between male and female (and this is even truer for a field you posit shouldn't exhibit biological differences), you open the door to other equally pointless biological distinctions to be made (for example, cis vs trans).
That's why I think the gender discussion happening here can't really be helped in this case. It was bound to happen, it's just how these things go. That's also why the mods haven't repressed that discussion like they always do, it's because this is the precise subject of the thread. Can't really talk about gender of an award without talking about the gender of the awardee. And if you put an asterisk in front of the award: "she's good for a female", people are gonna add the trans asterisk of their own.
I dare say you would have had some amount of toxic reactions too if the recipient hadn't been a transgender woman. The usual "look, girls are worse than boys at games huehuehue", probably. I think for gaming it would benefit women if we didn't talk relentlessly about their performance with respect to their gender (like with this award). Women are starting to get more interested in gaming anyway, so let the eSports part come naturally.
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EPT
