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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
I understand why they decided to impose strict guidelines on male to female transgender sports, but... You should never push limitations on someone else or on a select group of people because of who they are or the fact that they aren't exactly like everyone else. Nonsense. | ||
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reaverdrop
3 Posts
on-gender: What i find noteworthy regarding the recent developments around the olympic ruleset is this: the discussed title "highest female earner" was given to her by the Guiness Marketing - an instititution known for stuff like a "most yellow motorbike". I think it would make more sense to question that decision than scarletts ex-balls. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On November 15 2016 14:59 blunderfulguy wrote: The IOC policies are pretty dumb, I hope that no esports organizations ever base their own guidelines on those. I understand why they decided to impose strict guidelines on male to female transgender sports, but... You should never push limitations on someone else or on a select group of people because of who they are or the fact that they aren't exactly like everyone else. Nonsense. So what is your argument then? That no restrictions are fine, and as long as I say I'm a woman I'm allowed to compete in a female competition? I think the point of fair competition is to ensure that everyone is one a level playing field, which means when someone has anomalies in their body or mind that are not created naturally (tougher to define than you'd think), they are not able to compete. To me its fairly logical. If I get surgery to get a jetpack implant into my body, put steel plates in my knuckles, or any other alteration like using drugs to modify hormone levels, red blood cell levels, psychology, etc... I should not be allowed to compete with people who didn't get these alterations. Currently in the UFC there's a big outcry about fighters having the fight people who have been caught using steroids in the past, because we don't know exactly how long these effects last. If you inject anabolic steroids for years, you might have 20lbs more of lean muscle, it takes some time for this muscle to be catabolized even though testosterone levels drop sooner. There might be other hormones or other things that we don't even know about yet... There might be different mental effects, different development of the brain, so many things, and there's no way to know, we can only predict based on the information we have right now. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote: It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it. I don't think it's an unreasonable discussion. Also the arguments are presented in a respectful tone so I don't see what's wrong with it. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On November 15 2016 15:22 FiWiFaKi wrote: So what is your argument then? That no restrictions are fine, and as long as I say I'm a woman I'm allowed to compete in a female competition? I think the point of fair competition is to ensure that everyone is one a level playing field, which means when someone has anomalies in their body or mind that are not created naturally (tougher to define than you'd think), they are not able to compete. To me its fairly logical. If I get surgery to get a jetpack implant into my body, put steel plates in my knuckles, or any other alteration like using drugs to modify hormone levels, red blood cell levels, psychology, etc... I should not be allowed to compete with people who didn't get these alterations. Currently in the UFC there's a big outcry about fighters having the fight people who have been caught using steroids in the past, because we don't know exactly how long these effects last. If you inject anabolic steroids for years, you might have 20lbs more of lean muscle, it takes some time for this muscle to be catabolized even though testosterone levels drop sooner. There might be other hormones or other things that we don't even know about yet... There might be different mental effects, different development of the brain, so many things, and there's no way to know, we can only predict based on the information we have right now. Using steroids that you don't need in order to survive with the aim cheat in a sport is one thing, wanting to live a happy and natural life as the person you are is another. Nobody else has any right to say that a female is not a female except for that individual. Nature decides which sex you're born as, you decide who you are as a person. We don't impose restrictions on which religions someone can practice, which tones their skin has to be, so why impose restrictions on which gender they can be? It shouldn't be an issue. To quote myself earlier: 'The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.' Transgender people should have the choice to take or not take hormones as well the choice to compete in a competition. The people you should be worried and cautious of "threatening" the fairness of competition are not the entire population of transgender people in the world, they are people lying about who they are and are the same type of people who would use illegal steroids. Not transgender people. Liars. This is where I see unfairness. And honestly I haven't seen any man or woman attempt to masquerade against themselves and the rules of a competition in order to face "weaker" peers, nor recall ever hearing about someone doing this, so there isn't any warrant for the restrictions to begin with either. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada951 Posts
On November 15 2016 16:04 blunderfulguy wrote: Using steroids that you don't need in order to survive with the aim cheat in a sport is one thing, wanting to live a happy and natural life as the person you are is another. Nobody else has any right to say that a female is not a female except for that individual. Nature decides which sex you're born as, you decide who you are as a person. We don't impose restrictions on which religions someone can practice, which tones their skin has to be, so why impose restrictions on which gender they can be? It shouldn't be an issue. To quote myself earlier: 'The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.' Transgender people should have the choice to take or not take hormones as well the choice to compete in a competition. The people you should be worried and cautious of "threatening" the fairness of competition are not the entire population of transgender people in the world, they are people lying about who they are and are the same type of people who would use illegal steroids. Not transgender people. Liars. This is where I see unfairness. And honestly I haven't seen any man or woman attempt to masquerade against themselves and the rules of a competition in order to face "weaker" peers, nor recall ever hearing about someone doing this, so there isn't any warrant for the restrictions to begin with either. I don't know what point you're trying to make exactly anymore but you're out of your god damn mind if you think transgender women should be allowed to fight women in the UFC, boxing, tackling them in football, etc. Feelings don't come before safety and fairness. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On November 15 2016 16:04 blunderfulguy wrote: Using steroids that you don't need in order to survive with the aim cheat in a sport is one thing, wanting to live a happy and natural life as the person you are is another. Nobody else has any right to say that a female is not a female except for that individual. Nature decides which sex you're born as, you decide who you are as a person. We don't impose restrictions on which religions someone can practice, which tones their skin has to be, so why impose restrictions on which gender they can be? It shouldn't be an issue. To quote myself earlier: 'The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.' Transgender people should have the choice to take or not take hormones as well the choice to compete in a competition. The people you should be worried and cautious of "threatening" the fairness of competition are not the entire population of transgender people in the world, they are people lying about who they are and are the same type of people who would use illegal steroids. Not transgender people. Liars. This is where I see unfairness. And honestly I haven't seen any man or woman attempt to masquerade against themselves and the rules of a competition in order to face "weaker" peers, nor recall ever hearing about someone doing this, so there isn't any warrant for the restrictions to begin with either. To mention what I said in my previous post, I believe that whether there's an intention to cheat or not doesn't matter, it's all about the outcome. So I understand the emotional argument, and I was empathetic to that in my previous post, but it shouldn't supercede integrity of competition. I also completely disagree with your statement: "Nobody else has any right to say that a female is not a female except for that individual"... No, not really, not at all, it's a fact not a subjective opinion, I mean using the definition: "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.", which is what google gave me. Sure, you can alter it, but it's a simulation and not a perfect replica, for example a man will still have his y chromosome as far as I'm aware. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
On November 15 2016 16:19 FiWiFaKi wrote: To mention what I said in my previous post, I believe that whether there's an intention to cheat or not doesn't matter, it's all about the outcome. So I understand the emotional argument, and I was empathetic to that in my previous post, but it shouldn't supercede integrity of competition. I also completely disagree with your statement: "Nobody else has any right to say that a female is not a female except for that individual"... No, not really, not at all, it's a fact not a subjective opinion, I mean using the definition: "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.", which is what google gave me. Sure, you can alter it, but it's a simulation and not a perfect replica, for example a man will still have his y chromosome as far as I'm aware. Some equivocating going on here, I think - one of you is using "female" in the sense of gender identity and self-conception (an inherently subjective issue), and then the other is using "female" as a way of differentiating primary sex organs. Gotta love the English language. | ||
Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
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Neptuneajax
Australia206 Posts
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nimbim
Germany986 Posts
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CiuCiu
31 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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ilililililililiii
United States93 Posts
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
I find it hard to believe testosterone levels really affect pressing keys on a keyboard and moving a mouse around. Y'all are pretty unbelievable. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1946 Posts
On November 16 2016 20:44 InfCereal wrote: Basically what I'm getting from this, is a large portion of TL believes that women can't compete with men at video games. I find it hard to believe testosterone levels really affect pressing keys on a keyboard and moving a mouse around. Y'all are pretty unbelievable. It's not about belief. It's a fact. honestly, just look up any competitive game ever and try to find any game anywhere, where the top players were more than 50% female. Hell, even if you went and looked at Barbie's Revenge with Friends, you'd still probably get male players at the top, if it were a competitive game. what I find more unbelievable is that so many people here try to blindly be sjw and just refuse to see the points that people here are making. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On November 16 2016 21:19 abuse wrote: It's not about belief. It's a fact. honestly, just look up any competitive game ever and try to find any game anywhere, where the top players were more than 50% female. Hell, even if you went and looked at Barbie's Revenge with Friends, you'd still probably get male players at the top, if it were a competitive game. what I find more unbelievable is that so many people here try to blindly be sjw and just refuse to see the points that people here are making. That has more to do with gender saturating than anything. It has nothing to do with whether or not women can. If the ratio of men to women gamers is 100:1, there's obviously going to be more at the top. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1946 Posts
On November 16 2016 21:21 InfCereal wrote: That has more to do with gender saturating than anything. It has nothing to do with whether or not women can. If the ratio of men to women gamers is 100:1, there's obviously going to be more at the top. no it doesn't. The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men. Your opinion is great and all, but it is just plain wrong this time. Not to sound like an ass, but I guess I did, so sorry for that. Look at my country for example. My country has 2 million people in it. Compare it to other countries who have many many times more people. Do other countries have a better chance to get Olympic gold? Yes they do. That's saturation. Yet we still snag some gold olympic medals in several sports every now and then. Not the case with female gamers sadly. In fact I dare you to name any game where a female is the #1, just to add credit to the olympic gold thing. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On November 16 2016 21:32 abuse wrote: no it doesn't. The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men. Your opinion is great and all, but it is just plain wrong this time. Not to sound like an ass, but I guess I did, so sorry for that. Look at my country for example. My country has 2 million people in it. Compare it to other countries who have many many times more people. Do other countries have a better chance to get Olympic gold? Yes they do. That's saturation. Yet we still snag some gold olympic medals in several sports every now and then. Not the case with female gamers sadly. In fact I dare you to name any game where a female is the #1, just to add credit to the olympic gold thing. Starcraft 2 :^) | ||
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abuse
Latvia1946 Posts
no? | ||
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