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The gender/sex discussion seems so irrelevant here whatever our personal point of view on the matter. Here is my point :
The differentiation in (traditional) sport comes usually from the fact that women and men do not have the same basis attributes hence cannot compete to the same top level. At lower level, this doesn't matter, there are more women who run faster and beat me to any muscular contest than I can count in my head (prob thousands, even millions). There is a need to differentiate sports. Maybe in the future women will shot services as strong as men in tennis or run as fast as men and the differentiation will no longer be necessary.
The reason for this is physical differences, sure, but also numbers. As it was discussed above, fewer female tend to diminish the competitivness and reduce the results.
What about esport now ? Can we compare to something more historically developed ? YES, let's compare it to chess.
I'm pretty sure (more like a strong feeling) that there is a comparable number of female and male chess players. But at the top level, men are much better than women. For now, no evidence have been shown of a difference in capabilities between men and women for such games. So what is the reason ?
For me, the main reason is society that pushes women to be less competitive. So past a certain level, they tend to be less willing to improve and enjoy more the fun of games than the fun of competition. And I insist, for me, this is mainly due to society and not genetics. No scientific prove for either direction so let's call it a strong feeling, again.
If the difference here comes more from society than genetics, then there is no point in differentiating people based on sex, but there is a real need of doing so based on gender. In chess, competition are either for everyone, or female only, which tends to go with my argumentation : no intellectual difference so they can compete together in fairness, but a gender difference which push toward separated competition to increase the competitiveness of the female scene by rewarding them (just like region locking, in a way).
To come back to traditional sport, I couldn't see Usain bolt saying "hey guys, I've actually felt inside me that I'm a girl, so I'm going into surgery and after I'll be competiting with women". That makes no sense, would be totally unfair for other girls. The problem for that kind of separation is for everyone who is born without a clear sex : Either physicaly or hormonaly. That happened not so long ago with a female athletes who looks "too manly" and who then was forbidden to compete again because of unfairness. To manly to compete with women, and too much a women to have men's performances. Actually sad for her.
Again (and I'm going to repeat myself), in esport, no point in going into this discussion for now because there is no evidence of differences between sex. Gender in the other hand is a strong factor that can push someone to compete or not. The "saturation" that was mentioned in previous posts is there. Less female are willing to compete even if the bases number of players is comparable between female and male. Gender issue, not sexual. Scarlett's record is then, for me completely relevant.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men.
Far fewer girls even try to play as competitively when given the option
For sprinting, football comparisons etc: We have easy hard evidence that physical masculine traits give large competitive advantages; that evidence does not exist for esports.
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On November 16 2016 22:15 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men. Far fewer girls even try to play as competitively when given the option For sprinting, football comparisons etc: We have easy hard evidence that physical masculine traits give large competitive advantages; that evidence does not exist for esports.
of course they wouldnt try. If you suck at something why would you try to become pro? I dont think any guy thats pro today thought, man im gonna become pro and make money to play this game. Thats a mentality that never works. Its allways just a love for the game that you play everyday and all of a sudden your really good and start competing and climbing the pro ladder.
Also put any women in the top 100 and she would get way more money then a random guy top 100. Its not like women dont have a much better chance to become pro. The problem is they cant compete and probably never will be able to.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Its allways just a love for the game that you play everyday and all of a sudden your really good
It's really not "just" love, you need to work hard towards improving. For those with competitive drive, working hard to get results can be fun or the whole point of playing the game~
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Just some random thoughts...
- Do people consider Michael Jackson white or black at the end of his life?
- Where do we draw the line and consider someone fully a female, hormones + SRS? Or should we still call these people Post-OP MtFs in areas where it can have influences such as sport.
- Why is there a separate category for female gamers when there's no scientific evidence that there's any real difference between both sexes in regards to aptitude or maximal potential in gaming?
- What's next? People with larger hands (anatomical difference, just as sex is) get their own separate category?
I am not arguing that Scarlett does not deserve the top earning female gamer award, I do however subscribe to the idea that the award is superfluous in a sport where males and females should be equal.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Or should we still call these people Post-OP MtFs in areas where it can have influences such as sport.
Male physical developments do have easily shown influences on a bunch of physical sports so it's relevant for competition there
- Why is there a separate category for female gamers when there's no scientific evidence that there's any real difference between both sexes in regards to aptitude or maximal potential in gaming?
We also have seperate categories for korean/nonkorean players and even regionlocking to promote the nonkorean scene. I think that most people would see some amount of legitimacy in a "best foreigner award", for example
- What's next? People with larger hands (anatomical difference, just as sex is) get their own separate category?
Top athletes in many physical sports have weird quirks in their body that most people cannot compete on even grounds with. Being extremely tall for basketball, the right body proportions for swimming etc.. This shit is hard. For Esports i think there is minimal influence outside of the brain and the brain stuff is even harder to talk about scientifically
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On November 17 2016 01:31 B-royal wrote:
Just some random thoughts...
- Do people consider Michael Jackson white or black at the end of his life?
- Where do we draw the line and consider someone fully a female, hormones + SRS? Or should we still call these people Post-OP MtFs in areas where it can have influences such as sport.
- Why is there a separate category for female gamers when there's no scientific evidence that there's any real difference between both sexes in regards to aptitude or maximal potential in gaming?
- What's next? People with larger hands (anatomical difference, just as sex is) get their own separate category?
I am not arguing that Scarlett does not deserve the top earning female gamer award, I do however subscribe to the idea that the award is superfluous in a sport where males and females should be equal.
I do feel like I answered some of your thoughts in my post just above. But I'll still try to give my thoughts on your thoughts
- Not completely irrelevant but too complicated for me. We would have to know how he defines himself. Being black, I mean as part of a black community, in our society feels more like the need to be between people who won't judge you based on your skin because most of the others do. He was judge on his skin, wether black or white though...
- For sports, the line is sexual. The problem is that the frontier isn't well defined between what makes a female or a male if you don't just look at the sex. As I said before, there was the case for the female athlete who was too manly. Other girls had suspicions about her sex. She got tested medically and they found she had abnormally high proportion of some hormones for a female (here again, there is no clear gap between male and female), giving her some advantages. She kept her titles but is forbidden to compete anymore. The big problem is that she's still a woman, born a girl. And what do you do with people born with the two sexes, or with none clearly defined. This is a difficult question : a person without clear sex could be top tier with women and middle tier with men. But even top in both, do you easy win a title with women or go for 3rd or 4th place with men ? Do the law/rules should choose for you ?
- There is as of yet no difference between men and women in esport. The only difference I see is cultural and educational. Girls are told to be kind and gentle when boys are told to be tough and competitive. When growing up this stays.
As said by Cyro, we have region lock and non korean tournament. They are not supposed to be better, but they are, mainly for cultural reason. A best foreigner award doesn't seem too akward to me, so a best female doesn't too.
- you do have boxing or Judo competitions separated based on the weight. Seems only fair, no ? You could imagine competition without keyboard for people with only one hand. They can still be pretty good with the hotkeys on the screen (+ some on extra mouse button) and a good mouse accuracy. Obama is the first black USA president. Maybe he is in the guiness book for that, I honestly don't know. If he is, you could argue that there is no difference between black and white to become president, cultural issues appart. Same for the first woman that went into space or climb the Everest.
The award isn't superfluous because there is so few female gamers that it's actually noticeable. If/when women will be at comparable number with men in esport, the award should probably change to "first female to" in order to show that she was precursor.
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On November 17 2016 03:46 LDaVinci wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 01:31 B-royal wrote:
Just some random thoughts...
- Do people consider Michael Jackson white or black at the end of his life?
- Where do we draw the line and consider someone fully a female, hormones + SRS? Or should we still call these people Post-OP MtFs in areas where it can have influences such as sport.
- Why is there a separate category for female gamers when there's no scientific evidence that there's any real difference between both sexes in regards to aptitude or maximal potential in gaming?
- What's next? People with larger hands (anatomical difference, just as sex is) get their own separate category?
I am not arguing that Scarlett does not deserve the top earning female gamer award, I do however subscribe to the idea that the award is superfluous in a sport where males and females should be equal.
I do feel like I answered some of your thoughts in my post just above. But I'll still try to give my thoughts on your thoughts - Not completely irrelevant but too complicated for me. We would have to know how he defines himself. Being black, I mean as part of a black community, in our society feels more like the need to be between people who won't judge you based on your skin because most of the others do. He was judge on his skin, wether black or white though... - For sports, the line is sexual. The problem is that the frontier isn't well defined between what makes a female or a male if you don't just look at the sex. As I said before, there was the case for the female athlete who was too manly. Other girls had suspicions about her sex. She got tested medically and they found she had abnormally high proportion of some hormones for a female (here again, there is no clear gap between male and female), giving her some advantages. She kept her titles but is forbidden to compete anymore. The big problem is that she's still a woman, born a girl. And what do you do with people born with the two sexes, or with none clearly defined. This is a difficult question : a person without clear sex could be top tier with women and middle tier with men. But even top in both, do you easy win a title with women or go for 3rd or 4th place with men ? Do the law/rules should choose for you ? - There is as of yet no difference between men and women in esport. The only difference I see is cultural and educational. Girls are told to be kind and gentle when boys are told to be tough and competitive. When growing up this stays. As said by Cyro, we have region lock and non korean tournament. They are not supposed to be better, but they are, mainly for cultural reason. A best foreigner award doesn't seem too akward to me, so a best female doesn't too. - you do have boxing or Judo competitions separated based on the weight. Seems only fair, no ? You could imagine competition without keyboard for people with only one hand. They can still be pretty good with the hotkeys on the screen (+ some on extra mouse button) and a good mouse accuracy. Obama is the first black USA president. Maybe he is in the guiness book for that, I honestly don't know. If he is, you could argue that there is no difference between black and white to become president, cultural issues appart. Same for the first woman that went into space or climb the Everest. The award isn't superfluous because there is so few female gamers that it's actually noticeable. If/when women will be at comparable number with men in esport, the award should probably change to "first female to" in order to show that she was precursor.
You're portraying your point of view on the case like its proof. Many studies have shown that men for example have better oversight. That's one of the reasons why men excel in sports like chess and esports. I can't believe you putting this on a social aspect that girls might be grown up to be less competetive. And btw, theres ALOT more girls playing games % wise then being in esports. So saying just more men play is not really accurate when they are overrepresented in esports compared to the total.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
And btw, theres ALOT more girls playing games % wise then being in esports. So saying just more men play is not really accurate when they are overrepresented in esports compared to the total.
If you look at a game like WoW, girls have decent representation in average/easy difficulty or noncompetitive aspects of the game but that falls off much more sharply than boys when you move towards the competitive-styled areas of the game
to pull some numbers out of my ass it doesn't matter that the overall representation may be 60/40 on the login screen if it's 90/10 even attempting to play the area of the game that you're actually talking about
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The way I see it, regardless of the biological basis of whether a men are better/worse than women at the skills required to play e-sports, the issue of whether or not to allow a transgender to play in his/her league of identity should be based on whether or not the league actually exists and its reason for existing.
In athletic sports this question is much more clear cut, and I can imagine that there are people here who would advocate for transgender women to be allowed to play in an all-female e-sports league, yet disagree with letting them play in a women's athletic league. And that's because the biological basis for the average women's athletic capability versus men's is much stronger than it is for e-sports, according to what we know right now. Although, with athletics, we still recognise that there's a problem with the pool of availability between the two sexes (i.e. because there's a smaller pool of women competing, there's a lower chance of getting someone that stands out from the population), the genetic contribution to the observed discrepancy is still pretty unambiguous.
But let's say, hypothetically, that we now had different leagues for the different sexes in e-sports. The entire basis for this divide would be the notion that one sex has a natural advantage over the other, whether or not there was sound scientific evidence for such a claim. It would be insane to create such a division based on any more arbitrary reasons than that. In this case, allowing a transgender person to compete in the division of their gender identity would go completely against the basis for making these leagues in the first place; it would be self contradictory. One might argue that the way to correct for this would be something like a testosterone level check, but we don't even know if testosterone level is what's responsible for the sex discrepancy. And even if it was, that's still an insane arbitrary criterion, because there are still born women with naturally higher testosterone than the maximum allowed, and it would be silly to exclude them from their gender's league.
Now I don't think that there should be different leagues for the different sexes in e-sports, not without us knowing enough to determine how much of the discrepancy is explained with biology. If we did have that information, and if there were two different leagues as a result, then I argue that we would seriously have to question allowing transgender people in their league of identity, for the reasoning of the above paragraph.
But let's be clear, right now all we're talking about is a Guinness world record, and they can define their criteria however the hell they like. It's not like people in e-sports are spending much of their time or effort getting into that book, so it's pretty irrelevant to this discussion IMO. (And I still believe she deserves the recognition, as amazing as she is at the game; I'm constantly blown away at her macro when I watch her.) But I can still appreciate how this story brought up the bigger question about leagues that everyone is discussing.
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On November 16 2016 21:32 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 21:21 InfCereal wrote:On November 16 2016 21:19 abuse wrote:On November 16 2016 20:44 InfCereal wrote:
Basically what I'm getting from this, is a large portion of TL believes that women can't compete with men at video games.
I find it hard to believe testosterone levels really affect pressing keys on a keyboard and moving a mouse around.
Y'all are pretty unbelievable. It's not about belief. It's a fact. honestly, just look up any competitive game ever and try to find any game anywhere, where the top players were more than 50% female. Hell, even if you went and looked at Barbie's Revenge with Friends, you'd still probably get male players at the top, if it were a competitive game. what I find more unbelievable is that so many people here try to blindly be sjw and just refuse to see the points that people here are making. That has more to do with gender saturating than anything. It has nothing to do with whether or not women can. If the ratio of men to women gamers is 100:1, there's obviously going to be more at the top. no it doesn't. The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men. Your opinion is great and all, but it is just plain wrong this time. Not to sound like an ass, but I guess I did, so sorry for that. Look at my country for example. My country has 2 million people in it. Compare it to other countries who have many many times more people. Do other countries have a better chance to get Olympic gold? Yes they do. That's saturation. Yet we still snag some gold olympic medals in several sports every now and then. Not the case with female gamers sadly. In fact I dare you to name any game where a female is the #1, just to add credit to the olympic gold thing.
Not to sound like an ass, but when you say "there are more women," you're neglecting to mention that most of those women are not playing competitive esport titles.
Beyond the fact that this exact conversation has already been hashed out on this very website, it's striking to me that people are so quick to forget what seems to me to be the bottom line here: there are not many female pro gamers who earn even a livable wage, which is why Scarlett's success is particularly notable. Why exactly are folks so interested in undermining the significance of her accomplishments?
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On November 17 2016 14:01 RuiBarbO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2016 21:32 abuse wrote:On November 16 2016 21:21 InfCereal wrote:On November 16 2016 21:19 abuse wrote:On November 16 2016 20:44 InfCereal wrote:
Basically what I'm getting from this, is a large portion of TL believes that women can't compete with men at video games.
I find it hard to believe testosterone levels really affect pressing keys on a keyboard and moving a mouse around.
Y'all are pretty unbelievable. It's not about belief. It's a fact. honestly, just look up any competitive game ever and try to find any game anywhere, where the top players were more than 50% female. Hell, even if you went and looked at Barbie's Revenge with Friends, you'd still probably get male players at the top, if it were a competitive game. what I find more unbelievable is that so many people here try to blindly be sjw and just refuse to see the points that people here are making. That has more to do with gender saturating than anything. It has nothing to do with whether or not women can. If the ratio of men to women gamers is 100:1, there's obviously going to be more at the top. no it doesn't. The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men. Your opinion is great and all, but it is just plain wrong this time. Not to sound like an ass, but I guess I did, so sorry for that. Look at my country for example. My country has 2 million people in it. Compare it to other countries who have many many times more people. Do other countries have a better chance to get Olympic gold? Yes they do. That's saturation. Yet we still snag some gold olympic medals in several sports every now and then. Not the case with female gamers sadly. In fact I dare you to name any game where a female is the #1, just to add credit to the olympic gold thing. it's striking to me that people are so quick to forget what seems to me to be the bottom line here: there are not many female pro gamers who earn even a livable wage, which is why Scarlett's success is particularly notable. Why exactly are folks so interested in undermining the significance of her accomplishments?
I don't quite understand which is it that you're trying to put emphasis on.
There not being many females in gaming or Scarlett's success being particularly notable?
Scarlett's award is only between females not between all people.
You trying to say scarlett's success is particularly notable because it's only between females, while saying there are not many females in gaming is like saying that from 1 to 1000 --- 10 is the best number. But you're only supposed to look at 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10, and ignore everything that comes after.
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testosterone does increase desire to compete. Thats quite an advantage
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On November 14 2016 13:01 Circumstance wrote:
Or maybe we should be spending more time making the esports community more receptive to women instead of discrediting the most successful one we have.
yes plz
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It's as if Trump's victory vindicated all the bottom feeders into thinking that their scummy kneejerk reactions are valid and relevant. If this thread had happened last month I don't think literally every post would be related to whether she's a "real" girl.
User was warned for this post
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*opens discussion, hoping its not a gender debate*
*is a gender debate*
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On November 19 2016 00:29 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's as if Trump's victory vindicated all the bottom feeders into thinking that their scummy kneejerk reactions are valid and relevant. If this thread had happened last month I don't think literally every post would be related to whether she's a "real" girl.
That is the main fucking problem. Acting high and mighty and calling people "bottom feeders" for having valid concerns. Just call every Trump voter a sexist and racist, and call every Brexiter an idiot, and see where it leads. Your claim is obvious bullshit, Scarlett's gender identity as a woman has never been questioned by the SC community. Of course there are a few edgy people here and there, calling her "he" or making mean jokes, but those get banned by TL without any remorse or they get downvoted into oblivion on reddit, every single time.
Scarlett is one of the most beloved members of the SC2 community, due to her amazing personality. Her fanclubs is one of the biggest on TL, and in every LR thread people cheer her on. Everyone loves the Cinderella story of the shy girl with her shitty laptop who started to beat pros and slowly turned into one of the best players in the game (except against Reapers *cry*). I even remember how Scarlett herself starting LR threads of big tournaments because none were made, that was really cool.
Scarlett has done a lot for the acceptance of transgender people in the SC2-community due to being a most wonderful, nice and skilled person. You might call that sexist in itself because "what if she was like kind of a mean BMing cheating bully", then the prejudices would have certainly hit her. But she is not, so we have what we have, a MtF perfectly integrated into a community and loved by the community. And I don't think it is for subordinating into an expected cliche, I genuinely think Scarlett shows excactly who she is and the SC2 community loves and accepts who she is.
But the "Guniness World Record", this is a topic that needs to be discussed sooner or later, and it is not an obvious one. To be honest, I think listing Scarlett under the "female" category in this specific circumstance is just wrong. It is an error by the Guinness Book and people call that error out. That is why the "real girl" issue is brought up, not because Trump won and now everyone has turned into a manic sexist and racist.
It is extremely likely that males have a competitive advantage in Esports similar to other sports, even though probably not as big as in physical competition, almost all results indicate that such an advantage exists. Of course we don't know that yet for sure, but it seems like the most reasonable asumption given the evidence.
So far the SC2-scene is not big enough to have well-paying female only tournaments yet, so Scarlett's gender can be completely ignored for all intents and purposes regarding tournaments, and a Guiness Book entry is no big deal. But for another Esport that time will come, there will be Female only tournaments with a big prize pool and there will be MtF being really good at that particular game. And then we will eventually have to answer the same question. Do you let MtF compete in these tournaments or should they participate with the other males? I think that it would simply for the other women be unfair to let MtF compete against them.
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On November 19 2016 00:29 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's as if Trump's victory vindicated all the bottom feeders into thinking that their scummy kneejerk reactions are valid and relevant. If this thread had happened last month I don't think literally every post would be related to whether she's a "real" girl.
I won't take part in the discussion but, regardless of your opinion, yours is a kneejerk reaction based on thin air. On top of that, you show that you cannot even discuss. Stop fueling the fire and understand that most people of both sides are debating without being assholes and if you got lost on the way to your echo chamber you should look elsewhere.
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On November 14 2016 17:57 Jizz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2016 14:00 blinken wrote:On November 14 2016 13:49 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender. MtF transgenderism would have to be a lot more common than it is for that to ever be true, and that's assuming it gives you an advantage which we have no proof of and I don't really believe to be true. I really don't think it would have to be a lot more common. I just look at how many female Brood War players there were, and how hard they trained, and still were unable to compete with even third rate BW male pros. If they were equal in mental gaming hardware, there would be no way, just no way, this could happen. It's statistically impossible. I simply believe in evolution. Men have been strategising for survival from the dawn of our race. For me, questioning that they evolved specific advantages in this area is questioning basic scientific logic. As logically sound as the your Darwinist approach is, i think you're missing the sociological factors which men and women are subject to in modern society. For a very colloquial example: systemically a boy who smells bad after playing games for 12 hours on a regular basis which face less stigma than a girl who does the same, whether its from their peers, parents or what have you. Boys find it easier to immerse themselves in the game because its whats expected of them.
I have to disagree with you here, Jizz. While I can't say how it is where you are from, in the states where I live this type of behavior would be extremely discouraged by most (especially by parents the younger you are). I only did it because I WANTED to and I wouldn't be dissuaded by anyone for anything. I understand there are female gamers who want this, but I've always been under the impression that either there are a lot less of them or they binge to a lesser extent. Just my two cents (sense?)
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EPT
