Scarlett has a Guinness World Record!

On November 14 2016 07:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:
ha ha nice

still some work to do to reach gender equality, got to win those GSLs next year

On November 14 2016 10:24 InfCereal wrote:


Female representation in esports

On November 14 2016 11:01 Saechiis wrote:
Are there precedents like this in the Guiness Book of World Records? Seems a little off to give her a gender specific award considering she was born with a male physique. I suppose when it comes to gaming there's no clear advantages to being male or female but when it comes to sports for instance there's a noted difference in phsyical ability. If a sportsman would to identify as female and compete with women, that wouldn't be fair competition in my eyes.

I think it's pretty cool she got such a prestigious title, but it sets a weird precedent.

On November 14 2016 12:03 j4vz wrote:
Congratulation to Scarlett, but is there any mention about her biological sex? I dont want to bring down her amazing achievement record, I know SC2 is not the olympics but to be fair to other female progamers.

On November 14 2016 13:01 Circumstance wrote:
Or maybe we should be spending more time making the esports community more receptive to women instead of discrediting the most successful one we have.

On November 14 2016 13:30 blinken wrote:
I love Scarlett, and totally support transgender rights, but I feel this does a disservice to biological females. If we don't set a precedent here, one day all the top earners in the female category will be mtf transgender.

On November 14 2016 13:38 LtCalley wrote:


exactly...i could choose to identify as a woman and break the state benchpress record. where does the line get drawn?

On November 14 2016 13:49 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:

MtF transgenderism would have to be a lot more common than it is for that to ever be true, and that's assuming it gives you an advantage which we have no proof of and I don't really believe to be true.

On November 14 2016 20:01 SC2BF3Love wrote:
but as far as i know she ''he'' is not a girl %100 , you can notice that a mile away.

On November 14 2016 20:09 SuperFanBoy wrote:
Well, I'm not going to get myself banned by pointing out the obvious as I know TL has some SJW mods.

I'll just say this, please remember the fact that females make up only 1% of GM Chess players. I'd like to go more in depth with an explanation but will leave it at that as I want to avoid the ban.

On November 14 2016 20:25 HsDLTitich wrote:


She is a girl.



Social pressure? Something to do with women "belonging to the kitchen"?

Ye we have SJW mods on TL, I'm glad that this place is not reddit 2.0 at least, this thread is aweful enough as it is now...

On November 14 2016 22:49 blunderfulguy wrote:
whichever sex she was/wasn't born as does not apply to anything related to the award nor to her other accomplishments.

On November 14 2016 22:49 blunderfulguy wrote:
Not only that, but she is also a role model, icon, and inspiration to people of all sexes and genders all over the world, especially to many female gamers.

On November 14 2016 11:01 Saechiis wrote:
Are there precedents like this in the Guiness Book of World Records? Seems a little off to give her a gender specific award considering she was born with a male physique. I suppose when it comes to gaming there's no clear advantages to being male or female but when it comes to sports for instance there's a noted difference in phsyical ability. If a sportsman would to identify as female and compete with women, that wouldn't be fair competition in my eyes.

I think it's pretty cool she got such a prestigious title, but it sets a weird precedent.

On November 15 2016 01:16 Saechiis wrote:


Hi, could you not come into a very tame discussion thread only to call everyone bigoted and objectively wrong whilst not bringing any arguments other than your misguided sense of moral high ground? Thank you.

Original Message From Saechiis:
Care to explain what was stupid about my post?

On November 15 2016 02:13 Little-Chimp wrote:


How do you make an entire post telling people they shouldn't speak because they don't know... then include a caveat at the end saying even if you do know, don't speak anyways.

If you want people to stfu on the subject just say it up front tbh

On November 15 2016 02:13 Little-Chimp wrote:


How do you make an entire post telling people they shouldn't speak because they don't know... then include a caveat at the end saying even if you do know, don't speak anyways.

If you want people to stfu on the subject just say it up front tbh

On November 15 2016 02:27 DinoMight wrote:

Maybe this is why more women don't play.

On November 15 2016 02:32 DickMcFanny wrote:


To be fair, we heard plenty of comments about male players' / casters appearances.

"Ah IdrA is balding at 20", "TB looks like he's fifty", "Tasteless is so handsome he could be a male whore", "Artosis looks like Beaker", "If my balls were as ugly as Major is, I'd become a eunuch", "MC has become fat".

It's awful, but I think it's gender-neutrally awful.

On November 14 2016 10:24 InfCereal wrote:


Female representation in esports

On November 15 2016 02:37 DinoMight wrote:


With female gamers, it's almost entirely about their appearance, how they only get attention because they're female, or in Scarlett's case, about her being transgender.

On November 15 2016 02:35 Saechiis wrote:





If Showtime got an award for best foreign Zerg, I'm pretty sure there'd be some discussion to whether that was a warranted award. In fact, the odd thing would be to completely forego questioning the legitimacy of that award because you believe the nature of the question to be offensive. The fact that gender is a sensitive subject doesn't excempt it from discussion and you're not doing anyone any favors by simplifying my position or outright claiming the discussion to be worthless.

I haven't claimed Scarlett to be male so stop strawmanning my argument. You're the ones that are associating body with gender. Scarlett is female because she's mentally female, her body doesn't relate to whether she's male or female, that's not the discussion.

If you can't acknowledge that despite being mentally female she still has physically male genes that (possibly) give her an edge over other women in competition then I will stop arguing.

On November 15 2016 02:41 DickMcFanny wrote:


That's not true at all, though. Whenever she goes on a raping-spree and destroys a bunch of scrubs, the comments are usually about her superb play.

On November 15 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:

So I would shift the discussion away from that and more towards "why aren't there more women playing games."

On November 14 2016 17:50 Jizz wrote:


On the other hand women are generally thought of as more inclined toward multitasking, organization and intuition, skills essential to starcraft. Someone should get some identical m/f twins and make them grind ladder in the name of science

On November 15 2016 02:26 DickMcFanny wrote:



He's from Sweden.

On November 15 2016 07:22 ClanWars wrote:
It's pretty sad that I knew exactly what this thread would look like before I clicked on it.

On November 15 2016 09:04 stardog wrote:

Well, you're a cynical one after all. Have some whiskey, it helps.

On November 15 2016 09:16 DinoMight wrote:


To be fair, he isn't alone. I knew this thread was BOUND to dive into how she's transgender and how that affects the integrity of the record blah blah blah....

On November 14 2016 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote:


Then do it. But something tells me you'd rather identify as a man than break the state bench press record, so you won't. And we both know it.

Gender identity isn't a game, and if you felt you were a woman inside and wanted to bench, then all the power to you.

On November 15 2016 08:28 royalroadweed wrote:

That explains a lot.

On November 15 2016 10:01 Saechiis wrote:


What's your point? Of course a discussion is going to move towards the point of friction. Obvious doesn't equate to invalid. You're acting as if avoiding the obvious question and not participating in the debate only to later come out and post that you knew this was going to happen is a really noble and intelligent thing to do. From my point of view those are the worst posts in this thread. I knew this thread was going to be shit, a nice self-fulfilling prophecy.

On November 15 2016 11:57 blunderfulguy wrote:

In your Track and Field example, why would it not also be unfair for men or women who were simply born bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than other men or women just like how you assume that it would be unfair for someone who is male-to-female transgender? It is not unfair for someone who is faster, etc. than other people in the sport when the point of the sport is to be faster than other people, therefore is also completely fair for a transgender person to compete against others of the same (or any) gender regardless of what innate skill or physical ability they posses.

This argument has been beaten over and over, yet I still don't see the logic in it. If someone is born bigger or smaller than other people, it should never be seen as unfair to other people who choose to compete, and especially so when focusing on a person's gender identity which has zero affect on their skill to perform and compete in a sport.

Women who are have more muscle than average aren't "an issue", men who have more muscle aren't "an issue".
The only issue would be letting anyone get away with lying in order to compete, going against the rules of the competition, or, again, lying with the aim to compete against "weaker" people.

On November 15 2016 16:19 FiWiFaKi wrote:


To mention what I said in my previous post, I believe that whether there's an intention to cheat or not doesn't matter, it's all about the outcome. So I understand the emotional argument, and I was empathetic to that in my previous post, but it shouldn't supercede integrity of competition.

I also completely disagree with your statement: "Nobody else has any right to say that a female is not a female except for that individual"... No, not really, not at all, it's a fact not a subjective opinion, I mean using the definition: "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.", which is what google gave me. Sure, you can alter it, but it's a simulation and not a perfect replica, for example a man will still have his y chromosome as far as I'm aware.

On November 16 2016 20:44 InfCereal wrote:
Basically what I'm getting from this, is a large portion of TL believes that women can't compete with men at video games.

I find it hard to believe testosterone levels really affect pressing keys on a keyboard and moving a mouse around.

Y'all are pretty unbelievable.

On November 16 2016 21:21 InfCereal wrote:


That has more to do with gender saturating than anything. It has nothing to do with whether or not women can.

If the ratio of men to women gamers is 100:1, there's obviously going to be more at the top.

On November 16 2016 21:37 InfCereal wrote:


Starcraft 2 :^)

The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men.

On November 16 2016 22:15 Cyro wrote:


Far fewer girls even try to play as competitively when given the option

For sprinting, football comparisons etc: We have easy hard evidence that physical masculine traits give large competitive advantages; that evidence does not exist for esports.

Its allways just a love for the game that you play everyday and all of a sudden your really good

Or should we still call these people Post-OP MtFs in areas where it can have influences such as sport.

- Why is there a separate category for female gamers when there's no scientific evidence that there's any real difference between both sexes in regards to aptitude or maximal potential in gaming?

- What's next? People with larger hands (anatomical difference, just as sex is) get their own separate category?

On November 17 2016 01:31 B-royal wrote:
Just some random thoughts...

- Do people consider Michael Jackson white or black at the end of his life?
- Where do we draw the line and consider someone fully a female, hormones + SRS? Or should we still call these people Post-OP MtFs in areas where it can have influences such as sport.
- Why is there a separate category for female gamers when there's no scientific evidence that there's any real difference between both sexes in regards to aptitude or maximal potential in gaming?
- What's next? People with larger hands (anatomical difference, just as sex is) get their own separate category?

I am not arguing that Scarlett does not deserve the top earning female gamer award, I do however subscribe to the idea that the award is superfluous in a sport where males and females should be equal.

On November 17 2016 03:46 LDaVinci wrote:


I do feel like I answered some of your thoughts in my post just above. But I'll still try to give my thoughts on your thoughts

- Not completely irrelevant but too complicated for me. We would have to know how he defines himself. Being black, I mean as part of a black community, in our society feels more like the need to be between people who won't judge you based on your skin because most of the others do. He was judge on his skin, wether black or white though...

- For sports, the line is sexual. The problem is that the frontier isn't well defined between what makes a female or a male if you don't just look at the sex. As I said before, there was the case for the female athlete who was too manly. Other girls had suspicions about her sex. She got tested medically and they found she had abnormally high proportion of some hormones for a female (here again, there is no clear gap between male and female), giving her some advantages. She kept her titles but is forbidden to compete anymore. The big problem is that she's still a woman, born a girl. And what do you do with people born with the two sexes, or with none clearly defined. This is a difficult question : a person without clear sex could be top tier with women and middle tier with men. But even top in both, do you easy win a title with women or go for 3rd or 4th place with men ? Do the law/rules should choose for you ?

- There is as of yet no difference between men and women in esport. The only difference I see is cultural and educational. Girls are told to be kind and gentle when boys are told to be tough and competitive. When growing up this stays.
As said by Cyro, we have region lock and non korean tournament. They are not supposed to be better, but they are, mainly for cultural reason. A best foreigner award doesn't seem too akward to me, so a best female doesn't too.

- you do have boxing or Judo competitions separated based on the weight. Seems only fair, no ? You could imagine competition without keyboard for people with only one hand. They can still be pretty good with the hotkeys on the screen (+ some on extra mouse button) and a good mouse accuracy. Obama is the first black USA president. Maybe he is in the guiness book for that, I honestly don't know. If he is, you could argue that there is no difference between black and white to become president, cultural issues appart. Same for the first woman that went into space or climb the Everest.


The award isn't superfluous because there is so few female gamers that it's actually noticeable. If/when women will be at comparable number with men in esport, the award should probably change to "first female to" in order to show that she was precursor.

And btw, theres ALOT more girls playing games % wise then being in esports. So saying just more men play is not really accurate when they are overrepresented in esports compared to the total.

On November 16 2016 21:32 abuse wrote:


no it doesn't.
The ratio of men to women gamers is not 100:1 (there are more women) and the people at the top is way more than 100:1 in favor of men.
Your opinion is great and all, but it is just plain wrong this time.
Not to sound like an ass, but I guess I did, so sorry for that.

Look at my country for example. My country has 2 million people in it. Compare it to other countries who have many many times more people. Do other countries have a better chance to get Olympic gold? Yes they do. That's saturation. Yet we still snag some gold olympic medals in several sports every now and then.
Not the case with female gamers sadly.

In fact I dare you to name any game where a female is the #1, just to add credit to the olympic gold thing.

On November 17 2016 14:01 RuiBarbO wrote:

it's striking to me that people are so quick to forget what seems to me to be the bottom line here: there are not many female pro gamers who earn even a livable wage, which is why Scarlett's success is particularly notable. Why exactly are folks so interested in undermining the significance of her accomplishments?

On November 14 2016 13:01 Circumstance wrote:
Or maybe we should be spending more time making the esports community more receptive to women instead of discrediting the most successful one we have.

On November 19 2016 00:29 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's as if Trump's victory vindicated all the bottom feeders into thinking that their scummy kneejerk reactions are valid and relevant. If this thread had happened last month I don't think literally every post would be related to whether she's a "real" girl.

On November 19 2016 00:29 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's as if Trump's victory vindicated all the bottom feeders into thinking that their scummy kneejerk reactions are valid and relevant. If this thread had happened last month I don't think literally every post would be related to whether she's a "real" girl.

On November 14 2016 17:57 Jizz wrote:


As logically sound as the your Darwinist approach is, i think you're missing the sociological factors which men and women are subject to in modern society. For a very colloquial example: systemically a boy who smells bad after playing games for 12 hours on a regular basis which face less stigma than a girl who does the same, whether its from their peers, parents or what have you. Boys find it easier to immerse themselves in the game because its whats expected of them.

On November 19 2016 02:41 Jacenoob wrote:

But the "Guniness World Record", this is a topic that needs to be discussed sooner or later, and it is not an obvious one. To be honest, I think listing Scarlett under the "female" category in this specific circumstance is just wrong. It is an error by the Guinness Book and people call that error out. That is why the "real girl" issue is brought up, not because Trump won and now everyone has turned into a manic sexist and racist.
It is extremely likely that males have a competitive advantage in Esports similar to other sports, even though probably not as big as in physical competition, almost all results indicate that such an advantage exists. Of course we don't know that yet for sure, but it seems like the most reasonable asumption given the evidence.

So far the SC2-scene is not big enough to have well-paying female only tournaments yet, so Scarlett's gender can be completely ignored for all intents and purposes regarding tournaments, and a Guiness Book entry is no big deal. But for another Esport that time will come, there will be Female only tournaments with a big prize pool and there will be MtF being really good at that particular game. And then we will eventually have to answer the same question. Do you let MtF compete in these tournaments or should they participate with the other males? I think that it would simply for the other women be unfair to let MtF compete against them.

On November 19 2016 06:29 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Important to get some girls opinions on this

https://twitter.com/AlaskaSC2/status/798219591075799040

On November 19 2016 06:29 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Important to get some girls opinions on this

https://twitter.com/AlaskaSC2/status/798219591075799040

On November 19 2016 07:36 Jacenoob wrote:


Why use the gender argument in this? Why would a female opinion be worth more than a male opinion? Well, it could actually be worth more if she articulated an opinion based on her personal experience in tournament play. But she doesn't do that. All she does is point out her gender, claim sexism and consider the discussion won. I don't understand. It is not working and it will never work. Trying to smother a valid opinion, trying to win a discussion by falsely claiming the opposition is sexist will achieve nothing in the long run.

Her post is just bad. She claims Reddit SC2 is generally sexist? That is not true. Reddit itself has a of openly sexist subreddits and also a lot of upvoted sexist comments in the standard subs. There are also a lot of sexist gaming subs, but I absolutely cannot remember a single sexist or transphobic Reddit SC2 thread from the past 2 years. The time of rape jokes in this community is long gone.

On November 19 2016 11:37 ZenithM wrote:
I don't really have an opinion on the gender question, but I do find paradoxical the existence of both the theory that says that "boys and girls are equal in gaming" that a lot of people here like to throw around, and the Guiness record for female eSports earnings.

Either it's the same, or it's not.

I personally am inclined to think that the Guiness female record is the dumb thing that shouldn't exist, not Scarlett winning Starcraft 2 games.

On November 19 2016 05:25 RuiBarbO wrote:
First, it's based on this kind of sketchy notion of the advantage that being a man brings to competitive gaming. You say "It is extremely likely that males have a competitive advantage in Esports similar to other sports," but, as has been discussed to death on this very forum, that isn't actually something you can take for granted. Some people assume that because men win most tournaments, men have a competitive advantage, but that's a hard claim to verify when the vast majority of people who play Starcraft are male + Show Spoiler +. Some try to overcome this by arguing that the reason there are so many more men than women is because women are turned off by the competitive nature of the game, but I just don't see the evidence or the rationale for that. And it's contradicted by the fact that plenty of women have played physical sports competitively - so clearly, competition isn't necessarily much of a deterrent.

On November 19 2016 05:25 RuiBarbO wrote:
And then there is the lingering problem that trans women are often not biologically equivalent (whatever that means; hormones, physiology, or something else) to cis men anyway - so implying that Scarlett is a "biological male" (or whatever language you choose to employ) is probably just wrong.

On November 19 2016 05:25 RuiBarbO wrote:
Which brings us to issue number two: what the award actually signifies. We're interested in how women fare in esports because there are so few of them, and there are so few of them because... well, there is that nagging concern that a lot of women + Show Spoiler + just don't find the scene all that welcoming + Show Spoiler +. In light of this nagging concern, it's helpful to know how people who identify as women are doing overall. It's not just about their ability to win (at least, if I'm understanding the terms of the record) - it's also a matter of how easily they find teams and sponsors and their willingness to stay in the game despite heightened pressure (which, if I'm remembering that first Scarlett fan club thread correctly, certainly applies here).
Which is why I think the record is perfectly well-deserved.

On November 19 2016 11:50 RuiBarbO wrote:


My impression is that the "boys and girls are equal in gaming" thing is better put as "boys have no natural advantage over girls in gaming." Clearly boys are way more successful in gaming; what's not self-evident is why.

The Guiness record exists because boys are way more successful than girls in gaming, generally. No one is disputing that boys are more successful. What some people feel the need to bring up is that Scarlett is a trans person, and that this should for some reason invalidate her winning the award.