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On August 27 2016 18:32 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 17:11 207aicila wrote:On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote:Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it? - Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice. Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports. How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock. How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience? It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things. Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it. Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head. Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top. Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to.
By that same coin, I don't think they put Zest on a kiddy table with a stool and no keyboard and expected him to beat Flash either.
You are certainly correct that people with the correct mindset (and perhaps financial backing) can and do overcome odds that are against them. However, everyone who started from the bottom faced those who were on the bottom. No one faced the top people immediately and expected to win. You need to face people of your own skill level first and then work up to the top people.
And yes, you can go to Korea, but IdrA had a team backing him financially to go there in the first place. Most if not all of the Koreans who came to NA or EU had either success or financial backing. (Not to mention they were better than most of the people in their respective region). But when they came over, they took a large amount of the prize pool in the tournaments.
People wonder why the beginning of WoL was so large in the foreign scene, but it's because they were largely foreign tournaments with very few Koreans. The early MLGs had practically no Koreans in them. Thus, foreigners were able to win financial backing and could then afford to train in Korea and become some of the best (like, IdrA, HuK, Jinro) even among Koreans.
EDIT:
On August 27 2016 19:00 gab12 wrote:
Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything....
Yeah, they definitely need to bring back three seasons of SSL, GSL, and Kespa cup (and the cross finals aren't bad either).
I would say that having four tournaments basically dedicated to your country along with proleague is not terrible for an established Korean progamer. Yes, it's hard to break into these tournaments, but it is also difficult for less established foreign progamers to break into WCS let alone do well.
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On August 27 2016 19:02 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 18:32 RKC wrote:On August 27 2016 17:11 207aicila wrote:On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote:Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it? - Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice. Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports. How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock. How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience? It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things. Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it. Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head. Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top. Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to. By that same coin, I don't think they put Zest on a kiddy table with a stool and no keyboard and expected him to beat Flash either. You are certainly correct that people with the correct mindset (and perhaps financial backing) can and do overcome odds that are against them. However, everyone who started from the bottom faced those who were on the bottom. No one faced the top people immediately and expected to win. You need to face people of your own skill level first and then work up to the top people. And yes, you can go to Korea, but IdrA had a team backing him financially to go there in the first place. Most if not all of the Koreans who came to NA or EU had either success or financial backing. (Not to mention they were better than most of the people in their respective region). But when they came over, they took a large amount of the prize pool in the tournaments. People wonder why the beginning of WoL was so large in the foreign scene, but it's because they were largely foreign tournaments with very few Koreans. The early MLGs had practically no Koreans in them. Thus, foreigners were able to win financial backing and could then afford to train in Korea and become some of the best (like, IdrA, HuK, Jinro) even among Koreans. EDIT: Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 19:00 gab12 wrote:
Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything.... Yeah, they definitely need to bring back three seasons of SSL, GSL, and Kespa cup (and the cross finals aren't bad either). I would say that having four tournaments basically dedicated to your country along with proleague is not terrible for an established Korean progamer. Yes, it's hard to break into these tournaments, but it is also difficult for less established foreign progamers to break into WCS let alone do well.
Okay, I hate to bring this up, but here goes...
Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived.
Why did the foreigners, and also the early Korean ESL pros, stopped winning from HoTS onwards? Because the KeSPA elephants had finally arrived.
The invasion was not immediate. They took time to adapt to the new game. But eventually, their years of BW training and team-house infrastructure advantage kicked in, and they started kicking ass. Even the ESL Koreans had to leave Korea for WCS to be able to win tourneys and earn money.
What is the relevance of this? The relevance is that the current crop of Korean SC2 players were groomed under an infrastructure built over a decade - incrementally and organically. It wasn't built in a day, nor even a year. It wasn't built by helicopter money, nor subsidies.
Right now, Bliz is trying to speed-build an infrastructure with helicopter money. I don't think it will work - not so fast, not this way.
But you know what? I do think that foreigners will end up on par with the Koreans soon. No, not by them rising to the Korean's level. But by the Koreans dwindling as a force, and falling to their level.
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On August 27 2016 18:38 Liox wrote:
Listening to some parts of the foreign community is basically like an overambitious mother yelling at a child because it dared to some sweets after lunch because it has not "earned" it by doing homework first and cleaning the house.
Personally, I am glad that more foreign progamers now get the money to not worry about the next rent but instead focus on their practice. I believe that your life needs to be sorted and balanced to perform well. Otherwise you just burn out really fast or run into a slump. And that can be, to some extend, the difference between korean infrastructure and the foreigner world.
Yes, you need to put in effort and dedication and "passion" and you need to practice a lot (that is what you are getting paid for) but somehow some way people expect all progamers to be machines which are different just in how much they want to produce per day which is quite horrible. I seriously question the judgement of some people here and especially the way they do their work.
Take a mirror, look at yourself and then judge about guys who are just coming out of their teens. They don't have a boss that tells them to come to office every morning or something, they need the motivation and dedication to get up and follow their dreams which most people in this thread are not capable of even if someone would give them a detailed list with the steps to take. The world is a terrible place with guys like you hanging around.
i dont know who spoon fed you till your 20's but not everyone grew up with the same experiences, difficulties and ambitions.
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A lot of people here are saying that basically there are't foreigners able to match code s players and that foreigner prefer to get and to not get better. Well, online result are not saying this at all, this year foreigners have beaten code s winners in online cups and constistently other top koreans as well. Now someone will say that online results don't count, but in reality is much easier online to show the cap of your real skill, skill that if you get used to play under pressure you will bring to lan tournaments. For those who say that ping in Na is bad and all that i'll say that foregners are beating top koreans even on korean ladder when they where in china or from na. People can't play 10 hours a day just cause they have fun playing the game, if you play only for fun you cannot invest such amount of time in the game. Now non korean player have a reason to invest the time koreans always invested in the game, so the level gap is closing.
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It's interesting how that uThermal (who was pretty much a nobody) is now throwing around statements like the one in the header for this article. Looking forward to seeing if he can put his money where his mouth is come blizzcon.
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Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived.
Not really. Foreigners early did better in 2010-early 2011. From that on, there was a significant skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
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On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote:
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
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On August 27 2016 20:07 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived. Not really. Foreigners early did better in 2010-early 2011. From that on, there was a significant skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
Also that's pretty much how every iteration of SC2 has gone. Foreigners have done well at the beginning. Game gets 'figured out'. Foreigners are irrelevant
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There are many good foreign players, who have never celebrated the new WCS system and whenever they make a statement, they stress, how they are missing the opportunity to play against the real Koreans in international tournaments. E.g. Snute, Harstem ... These players deserve lots of respect.
Then, there are players like Nerchio.
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On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote:
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"? And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players. This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
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On August 27 2016 09:19 ROOTFayth wrote:
Well I'm in the part of Canada that has french as its language, so like you I learned a 2nd language that allows me to communicate with most people who also learn english as a 2nd language, no need to get upset buddy, take a deep breath.
and yes if you want to compete internationally but are not willing to learn to communicate internationally you are a generic fuck, there are several koreans who actually made effort to speak english in interviews and it made me want to root for them a LOT more than those who used a translator
Man I dont know how to say it, here in France we would say "you are digging deeper and deeper at every answer you post in this thread". Meaning at every response you make its getting worse...
Otherwise globally agree with Incognito. In a competitive environnement I dont get why pure skill is not the only criteria to judge people. I dont get at all this "generic koerean" thing, or your "you must learn the universal langage" UNIVERSAL, LOL.
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On August 27 2016 20:13 Diabolique wrote:
There are many good foreign players, who have never celebrated the new WCS system and whenever they make a statement, they stress, how they are missing the opportunity to play against the real Koreans in international tournaments. E.g. Snute, Harstem ... These players deserve lots of respect.
Then, there are players like Nerchio.
In other words, real competitors vs people chasing pay checks.
Snute will always have my respect. Even in matches he has lost he has looked like someone who REALLY wants it. He's of the same caliber imo as Naniwa, Jinro and Stephano he just hasn't had the results yet. But you know without a shadow of a doubt that someone with his talent and commitment will eventually EARN those results.
Guys like that deserve respect. The people arguing that they deserve money just because.... How the fuck do you defend those people? I mean seriously?
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On August 27 2016 07:53 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote:Hi first thanks for the interview  I write here just to express my point of view, not to reply or start a discussion (and apologies if my point doesn't come across very well, english is not my first language). The main thing I want to say is to the "foreigner pros" (it's kind of a general category  but I have the chance, since I see Nerchio uThermal, Drogo are posting here and maybe others are reading): keep it up, from a viewer perspective, this year of events has been and still is awesome! I used to watch the main events (DH, IEM, etc.) and usually I had my favorite korean to cheer for (MC since I play toss) but I almost never got to know any foreigner pros, since all of them got eliminated very early (as you say in the interview). The best moments in these tournaments for me were when one of the european / american players could get some good results and you started to see him/her as the foreign-hope (I'm thinking Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett at some point): most of the time the hope was crushed veeeery soon, as even for these stars reaching the RO4 / semifinals was most they could do. This means that I never got to be interested in minor tournaments (here I don't know most of the naming think about all the BaseTradeTV coverage of online cups, minor tournaments, etc.). Now *for me* this year this has changed quite a lot: - in major tournament I LOVE to see european players (and NA of course) being able to compete for the top spot. I don't care if the level of play is some % lower (if it really is) than 1-2 years ago, for me a tournament where someone like uThermal / Nerchio WINS it's much much more exciting and something I will remember. Why? Because I can relate much more with the players, I can listen to the interview and I see guys (and girls) which come from an environment (Europe for instance) that I know very well. When uThermal says they all sacrificed a lot (studies, time etc.) and they all try super hard and train a lot to become pros, I feel much more close to understand this and to cheer for them, than when I listen to TY/Zest/Dark or any of the Kespa Pros. Really guys keep going and congrats for the results you got so far! You showed AMAZING games and a LOT of people enjoyed watching you play! On this forum there is a very small group of people veeeery vocal about everything in an extremely negative way: I don't know if the rest of the community is close to their position (I can't know), but I do know that a lot of viewers DO enjoy the show you are putting up and the games you are playing. - during a casual week, I'm much much much more inclined to watch online tournaments or qualification brackets, or whatever ZG and Rifkin are casting, because almost every time I open TL there is some stream going on with the TOP players of this year circuit playing. Today it was Polt vs Raynor or Harstem, an other day it may be Nerchio vs Snute, or Byun (GSL play btw) vs someone else... maybe it's just my perception which is somehow skewed or wrong, but I LOVE that I can get to know these players through these weekly casts, and then I also see them compete for the top spots ad DH or in WCS. - On the same line, I think it's amazing that in this forum there is some participation of top pro players (foreigner). How awesome is it when Harstem helps you in the Protoss Strategy thread? Or when you read uThermal interview and then he answers you in the same thread :D Do you think it will EVER happen with TY/Zest/KTplayers? No it won't (I think). This (for me) makes the players much more relatable, and again when I then see them in the DH/WCS finals I know I will cheer for them. I am sorry if these thoughts are a bit disorganized and the main message doesn't come across very well, it was kind of a stream of thoughts from reading the thread The TL;DR for the foreign pros that may be reading is: awesome job, you made my personal SC2 experience much more enjoyable this year and I'm super happy all the hard work one has to put in to become professional in this game is paying off in terms of money/visibility/results/glory ( ) I can't way for Blizzcon I and do really hope that some of you will make it to the last rounds, why not to the final, to challenge the Koreans! 
I guess this sums it up pretty good for me. I am more interested in sc2 than ever. Now i have started to support streams etc cause they show more matches there i cant tell the winner in advance.
@uthermal and Nerchio keep up the good work. Maybe Reddit and TL are not the places for foreign sc2 anymore.
Although i had put my money on uhtermal to be the next Team Liquid Player.
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On August 27 2016 20:22 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 20:13 Diabolique wrote:
There are many good foreign players, who have never celebrated the new WCS system and whenever they make a statement, they stress, how they are missing the opportunity to play against the real Koreans in international tournaments. E.g. Snute, Harstem ... These players deserve lots of respect.
Then, there are players like Nerchio. In other words, real competitors vs people chasing pay checks. Snute will always have my respect. Even in matches he has lost he has looked like someone who REALLY wants it. He's of the same caliber imo as Naniwa, Jinro and Stephano he just hasn't had the results yet. But you know without a shadow of a doubt that someone with his talent and commitment will eventually EARN those results. Guys like that deserve respect. The people arguing that they deserve money just because.... How the fuck do you defend those people? I mean seriously?
I am just surprised (and sad) that Snute was achieving better results in the old system ... his IEM group victories against the latest winners of GSL and SSL ... that "striping the onions" ... every SC2 fan will remember this forever. I am not sure, who will remember some WCS2016 Summer finals ...
The more respect deserves Scarlett today, when she does not enjoy and go for the paychecks in all WCS2016 tournaments, but goes to Korea to practice on the ladder and with some other non Kespa Koreans ... Respect, Respect, Respect!!! I just hope, she wins a lot of competitions!
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On August 27 2016 20:07 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived. Not really. Foreigners early did better in 2010-early 2011. From that on, there was a significant skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
Koreans didn't arrive foreignerworld before early 2011.
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On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote:
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"? And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players. This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
Did i say you have to ban all koreans or something like that? I just pointed out, why european players can't be same good as korean ones.
On August 27 2016 20:14 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote:
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"? And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players. This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys. that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
It depends on what he will spend his $100000. He can invest into something stupid, have huge debts and make suicide. While the second guy will live his life poor, but happy, cause he never had such money )) My example what about studying and becoming better, not about having money
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On August 27 2016 05:47 Heyjoray wrote:
Awesome Headline. Evil evil Koreans! They are responsible for all the bad things! Was about time for some bashing! Stardust being on foreigner level was funny. Especially when he won several tournaments. You know, like Foreigners usually do. And how exactly was TRUE accomplishment so much easier?
Sensationalist journalism at it's -_-
That's all I'm going to say about that.
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I think the best thing that could happen for foreigner scenes in any esport is for there to be some infrastructure that supports early scouting of talent (eg via ladder) and then matching up that talent with strong coaches and a basic wage to give them the time to improve.
Look at any competitive sport in the world, most amazing athletes go through massive swaths of time where they don't believe in themselves and have no idea how to improve further because that is super hard to assess objectively for oneself once you're at all good at anything. That's why coaches exist.
Having Korea as the only place where this infrastructure exists is a huge waste of talent. There's no reason that can't be built outside of Korea, it just hasn't happened yet. Getting the money in the right place was step one, I hope step 2 happens soon in SC2 and the other games I like to watch (e.g. most fighting games.)
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On August 27 2016 21:40 Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote:
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"? And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players. This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys. Did i say you have to ban all koreans or something like that? I just pointed out, why european players can't be same good as korean ones. Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 20:14 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote:
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"? And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players. This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys. that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful. It depends on what he will spend his $100000. He can invest into something stupid, have huge debts and make suicide. While the second guy will live his life poor, but happy, cause he never had such money )) My example what about studying and becoming better, not about having money
yes and the guy who got an experienced coach and teammates of his level could become a serial killer and murder his family. It's obvious that its better to have an advantage in some sort of way than NO advantage, but does that completely mean 'no chances'? - which you claimed
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On August 27 2016 19:23 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 19:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 27 2016 18:32 RKC wrote:On August 27 2016 17:11 207aicila wrote:On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote:Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it? - Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice. Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports. How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock. How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience? It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things. Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it. Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head. Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top. Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to. By that same coin, I don't think they put Zest on a kiddy table with a stool and no keyboard and expected him to beat Flash either. You are certainly correct that people with the correct mindset (and perhaps financial backing) can and do overcome odds that are against them. However, everyone who started from the bottom faced those who were on the bottom. No one faced the top people immediately and expected to win. You need to face people of your own skill level first and then work up to the top people. And yes, you can go to Korea, but IdrA had a team backing him financially to go there in the first place. Most if not all of the Koreans who came to NA or EU had either success or financial backing. (Not to mention they were better than most of the people in their respective region). But when they came over, they took a large amount of the prize pool in the tournaments. People wonder why the beginning of WoL was so large in the foreign scene, but it's because they were largely foreign tournaments with very few Koreans. The early MLGs had practically no Koreans in them. Thus, foreigners were able to win financial backing and could then afford to train in Korea and become some of the best (like, IdrA, HuK, Jinro) even among Koreans. EDIT: On August 27 2016 19:00 gab12 wrote:
Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything.... Yeah, they definitely need to bring back three seasons of SSL, GSL, and Kespa cup (and the cross finals aren't bad either). I would say that having four tournaments basically dedicated to your country along with proleague is not terrible for an established Korean progamer. Yes, it's hard to break into these tournaments, but it is also difficult for less established foreign progamers to break into WCS let alone do well. Okay, I hate to bring this up, but here goes... Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived. Why did the foreigners, and also the early Korean ESL pros, stopped winning from HoTS onwards? Because the KeSPA elephants had finally arrived. The invasion was not immediate. They took time to adapt to the new game. But eventually, their years of BW training and team-house infrastructure advantage kicked in, and they started kicking ass. Even the ESL Koreans had to leave Korea for WCS to be able to win tourneys and earn money. What is the relevance of this? The relevance is that the current crop of Korean SC2 players were groomed under an infrastructure built over a decade - incrementally and organically. It wasn't built in a day, nor even a year. It wasn't built by helicopter money, nor subsidies. Right now, Bliz is trying to speed-build an infrastructure with helicopter money. I don't think it will work - not so fast, not this way. But you know what? I do think that foreigners will end up on par with the Koreans soon. No, not by them rising to the Korean's level. But by the Koreans dwindling as a force, and falling to their level.
really brilliant post, if i had money i'd buy TL+ for this. it's not often i see someone address the issue this way rather than just falling one one of the two extremes - "FOREIGNERS CAN'T EVER WIN BECAUSE OF KOREANS!" or "FOREIGNERS ARE TOO LAZY TO GET GOOD!"
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