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Ctesias
4595 Posts
While I can understand that some foreign players now feel there is a reason to attend Dreamhack etc., I lost my reason to watch those same tournaments. I can only speak for myself, but finding only Korean tournaments worth watching, instead of so many more before, has definitely hurt my interest in the game. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On August 27 2016 12:09 imre wrote: Looking at viewership figures might be another interesting indicator of this year's system "success". I'm still waiting on the promised global event but I will avoid to hold my breath. It depends on what you're marking it against. If you're marking it against the Dreamhacks or IEMs they're mostly stagnant or slightly up or down from tournament to tournament If you're marking the circuit championships against the thing it replaced, the WCS 2015 season finals. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
And I think it's really cool that the top players in NA/EU are making decent livings. I think the NA/EU system is solid and should stay the same. But in Korea, if they added more money and tournaments there, that would be nice. But we're asking for charity to get more money at this point. | ||
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MLuneth
Australia557 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 27 2016 12:35 Doodsmack wrote: I believe the pros if they all say they've gotten better (especially with offline). And I think it's really cool that the top players in NA/EU are making decent livings. I think the NA/EU system is solid and should stay the same. But in Korea, if they added more money and tournaments there, that would be nice. But we're asking for charity to get more money at this point. I definitely agree with this. I think ultimately what people want is for foreigners to be able to compete at the same level as Koreans, that way the quality is very high no matter what tournament you're watching. However, they don't want the Koreans to suffer (as they have this year) so that people who might not do very well against them at Blizzcon get way more money. On the other hand, there needs to be motivation for foreigners to compete in SC2 as a sustainable living in lieu of not having the same structure or system that Koreans grow up in. It's like hockey in Canada versus say hockey say in Japan. Canada has a system in place that allows for talented players to compete at the highest level. So in order for foreigners to raise their level, I think having a very few amount of Koreans to play with is a good idea since they do not have to face as many Koreans. I honestly think that this system has worked to a certain degree, with Polt and Hydra no longer being invincible. Remember at the beginning of the year, people thought that Hydra and Polt (the only remaining strong Koreans) would dominate, and they never really did dominate. And really, in the Leifeng in and Olimoleague tourneys, we have seen Koreans dominate, but we have also seen Code S level Koreans, like Keen, alive, and others being taken out by foreigners all the time. So hopefully, Blizzard does give the Korean scene more money next year but also keeps some of this WCS system this year, as I think it has given the foreign scene some much-needed money. | ||
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Parrek
United States893 Posts
On August 27 2016 12:25 showstealer1829 wrote: It depends on what you're marking it against. If you're marking it against the Dreamhacks or IEMs they're mostly stagnant or slightly up or down from tournament to tournament If you're marking the circuit championships against the thing it replaced, the WCS 2015 season finals. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down. If you're comparing regular DH events this year to ones last year, viewership is up as a whole. DH events and IEM events were at an all time low. The main thing SC2 fans watched was WCS Premier which was way up compared to other events. The Korean filled weekenders were down significantly compared to the foreign filled seasons. I think that's the main thing to take away from last year. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 27 2016 12:09 imre wrote: Looking at viewership figures might be another interesting indicator of this year's system "success". I'm still waiting on the promised global event but I will avoid to hold my breath. How dare you you ingrate  | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
I'm sure racial quotas will 'motivate' minorities to try harder in breaking the glass ceiling, everywhere in the world. (Yes, I'm being sarcastic. I'm not saying that people given a leg up can't punch above their weight. I'm just seriously questioning the idea of how 'affirmative action' can 'motivate' people to try harder instead of being complacent, when historical data in other places have shown otherwise. As a minority myself, I believe that people are most motivated - and consequently more successful - when their backs are pushed against the wall, when they're fighting against stacked odds, and so on.) | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
(Of course, such sports have proper domestic infrastructure and incentives - one could argue they have a protected WCS system in place. But for all sports, international and regional glory is the ultimate goal - and that is what that keeps them going, and not simply being top footballer/golfer in Korea. The old WCS system got the balance right already - WCS is the 'domestic league', DHs and IEMs are the seasonal regional and international tourneys to test your mettle against the best.) | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On August 27 2016 14:13 RKC wrote: Look at the Koreans in football and sports in general. Decades ago, they were terrible (except maybe in martial arts lol). But we now see a marked improvement of quality in football, badminton, golf, hockey, etc. Getting smacked by other teams and players at the international levels in the early years didn't demotivate them from trying harder. I'm sure defeat only made them faster, better and stronger. (Of course, such sports have proper domestic infrastructure and incentives - one could argue they have a protected WCS system in place. But for all sports, international and regional glory is the ultimate goal - and that is what that keeps them going, and not simply being top footballer/golfer in Korea. The old WCS system got the balance right already - WCS is the 'domestic league', DHs and IEMs are the seasonal regional and international tourneys to test your mettle against the best.) Well in conventional sports even if you do poorly you still get a decent amount of money from salary and endorsements. That level of economic insurance doesn't exist in eSports yet, so we need some sort of external money to keep people in the game. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
What non-Korean scene ('foreigner' sounds ridiculous tbh) needs is a solid league, I suppose. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 27 2016 14:13 RKC wrote: Look at the Koreans in football and sports in general. Decades ago, they were terrible (except maybe in martial arts lol). But we now see a marked improvement of quality in football, badminton, golf, hockey, etc. Getting smacked by other teams and players at the international levels in the early years didn't demotivate them from trying harder. I'm sure defeat only made them faster, better and stronger. (Of course, such sports have proper domestic infrastructure and incentives - one could argue they have a protected WCS system in place. But for all sports, international and regional glory is the ultimate goal - and that is what that keeps them going, and not simply being top footballer/golfer in Korea. The old WCS system got the balance right already - WCS is the 'domestic league', DHs and IEMs are the seasonal regional and international tourneys to test your mettle against the best.) Keep in mind that improvement increases with more experienced coaches (often from other nations) and with more money. The foreign scene really had neither. Besides, the example is more apt if South Korea had a curling team (does it?) and it let Canadian teams come at the regional and national competitions. If we should let Koreans play in the international tournaments....then they should be playing at the Dreamhack finals or the IEM world championships. In 2015 and before, the host country of the iem/dreamhack often had a lot of local entries, thus making it more of a regional or national tournament rather than international. So I agree that there should be tournaments that allow for all Koreans and Foreigners, but that those tournaments should also come with more funding for foreigners and more tournaments. (As they have done this past year). | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 27 2016 13:11 FrkFrJss wrote: Remember at the beginning of the year, people thought that Hydra and Polt (the only remaining strong Koreans) would dominate, and they never really did dominate. And really, in the Leifeng in and Olimoleague tourneys, we have seen Koreans dominate, but we have also seen Code S level Koreans, like Keen, alive, and others being taken out by foreigners all the time. And I think this shows the foreigners have improved. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 27 2016 14:23 Thouhastmail wrote: Still I cannot understand that 'circuit' system; is it a series of invitational tournaments? What non-Korean scene ('foreigner' sounds ridiculous tbh) needs is a solid league, I suppose. Yes, the solution to motivate and improve non-Koreans is to have more 'domestic' leagues - which is what the old WCS did (maybe the only tweak it needed was to have stricter region lock rules). Leave the IEMs and DHs alone - those are the 'internationals' that every player from any county should be eligible to enter. The main reason why non-Koreans have caught up with 'Koreans' like Polt and Hydra is due to LoTV resetting the game close to zero (see how the likes of soO and Inno are still struggling), and the decline of such foreign-based Koreans over time (due to lack of team-house environment). That foreigners are winning more tourneys now should not be attributed to the current WCS system, I feel. As for the motivational factor, I suppose it differs from individual to individual. What bugs me is the 'entitlement' vibe coming from some of the pros. Let's put things into perspective - you're in Europe, not some third world country. You have plenty of options - go to college, pick another sport, etc. No one forced you into a competitive e-sports at its infancy like SC2. You know making money is a long shot, and it's hard to compete with the more well-endowed Koreans with a richer culture in the game. Yes, the odds are stacked against you from the start. Can't deal with it? Do something else. Sheesh. (Sorry if my comments come across as offensive and insulting to the pros. But I just have to let it out. Like I said, I'm an underprivileged minority, where I come from. And I feel strongly when 'people of privilege' complain about inequalities and inequities, yada yada. I don't know the pros or anyone in this forum well enough to be sure that you're a 'person of privilege', of course. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but just at the 'mindset' that some of the pros seem to have which I find disappointing.) | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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Parrek
United States893 Posts
On August 27 2016 14:23 Thouhastmail wrote: Still I cannot understand that 'circuit' system; is it a series of invitational tournaments? What non-Korean scene ('foreigner' sounds ridiculous tbh) needs is a solid league, I suppose. It's a series of tournaments, but, with a few exceptions, there are no invites. Everyone must play open brackets or qualify in one of two events for each region. I wish we still had WCS Premier. It was the best part of last year and easily the most popular league in SC2 in 2015. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: not give a fuck about playing a dead game Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this. So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/ Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 27 2016 15:53 Incognoto wrote: Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this. So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/ Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude. Sigh. Yet another evidence of 'entitlement'. I'm honestly disappointed by the amount of shit posting that foreigner pros get away on TL. Results or no results, there is no excuse of being a dick. Only Snute and Scarlett (off the top of my head) seem to engage constructively, discussing the game whilst throwing in the occasional humour. Maybe they're just putting on a badass persona on purpose, following the footsteps of Stephano and Naniwa. That may have worked in the past. But sorry, that's not the way of a true sporting professional. Look at football and tennis, look at Messi and Federer. Yes, there is the occasional bad boy getting results and making big money, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Especially in the age of sponsorship and endorsement, there is even a greater need for sportsmen to polish their professionalism, commercially speaking. Look at the meltdown of Lochte at the Olympics right now. Look at Nick Krygios' talent going down the drain with his bad behaviour and 'motivational issues'. It's a shame that Korean pros get slammed and ridiculed for being 'emotionless robots'. It's called professionalism. It's called respect. It's called sportsmanship. | ||
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