uThermal is one of 2016's biggest breakout stars, winning IEM Shanghai to become the first foreigner Terran to win a major title in years. He's also one of the biggest beneficiaries of the drastic changes in WCS 2016. I talked to him about the pros and cons of the new, region-locked WCS, and how it could be improved going forward.
*Interview has been edited for clarity.
Wax: Now that WCS 2016 has played out for almost an entire competitive year, how do you feel about it? I guess the answer is a bit obvious…
uthermal: Well for me, it’s good. The thing is, it feels kind of extreme in a way, because the WCS players make a lot more money than the Koreans now. I looked at the Aligulac.com earlier, and I think the top five earners of 2016 are all WCS (link to rankings).
I think they went from another extreme to this extreme. Because before, it was pretty much impossible to be a progamer as a foreigner. I think I made around $10,000 a year before, which was pretty terrible. And now I make over $50,000, so it’s a really big difference. I think it’s good, but they messed up some stuff in the process.
The worst thing is they had events for Koreans for so long, and then they region locked it after five years. So there are a bunch of Koreans who were living off foreign tournaments, and suddenly their careers just died.
So even besides the one big championship you got at IEM, you’re saying in general there’s a lot more chances to pick up money from high finishes.
Yeah, because last year and the years before, going to a DreamHack was like, you go because you’re a progamer and it’s your duty. But in reality you knew it was pretty much a waste of time. There’s like thirty-five Koreans and you’re probably going to lose to one of them in the Ro32 or something. There was almost no point in going, except for team exposure and the off chance you get a lucky bracket and get top eight.
And now, every foreigner is super tryhard to get to every event. Not everyone can win, but everyone has a chance at top four, top eight. There’s actually a point in going to events now.
If everyone is trying hard, do you think everyone has become better? Do you notice people practicing harder and getting better?
Yeah, I’m sure people are better. You can also see a lot of the players who weren’t that motivated before—Nerchio is a good example. He was really not that good in HotS, and then in LotV the game became better and the system allowed him chances. Now he’s trying pretty hard and he’s gone really far.
It’s kind of similar with me. Last year, I had been trying really hard for a long time. When all your effort results in a single top eight, and some Ro32s and whatever... ...it really felt like it was pointless to practice back then.
Now, for example, Elazer and Drogo and all the players who have a chance for BlizzCon—and me and all the top players—are trying really hard. I do think we’re better than ever, for sure.
Like, I read Harstem’s interview (link to interview), and I talked about the interview with some other progamers, and everyone thought it was complete bullshit what he said. Made more money even though he was worse? But everyone thinks he’s like ten times better than he ever was. Maybe he feels that way himself, but he was just a Ro32 player like me, previously, and now he’s a double champion. He’s so much better, it shocked all of us that he had that perception. Really, all of us think everyone is better pretty much, except for like a select few like Harstem.
If you look at the main, Blizzard WCS tournament itself, it’s not THAT different from the previous WCS Premier Leagues in terms of the number of Koreans competing. Do you think the main WCS tournament has changed much?
No, definitely not. That’s what’s surprised me the most out of the comments. Because I read Reddit and TeamLiquid a lot, and I read all the comments. There's a comment I see sometimes. For example, when ShowTime won in Tours(link to bracket)—a lot of people acted like it wasn’t that big of a deal compared to previous years, because it’s region locked now. I feel the tournaments are exactly the same.
Yes, there was one point when WCS was harder, it was when the six Koreans were living in Germany, MC, YoDa, First, etc. That’s when it was a bit harder.
But for example, when Lilbow won WCS (link to bracket), it was the same, or even a bit easier than now. Because Polt and Hydra were already there, and the other Koreans in that season were Stardust and Jaedong, who were basically like foreigners in level. They were not seen as top players the last year.
And I think now, it's a little bit harder with the addition of TRUE. So I think the WCS main tournaments are pretty much exactly the same.
So what the region lock has really changed for you guys, is your chances at third party tournaments like IEM, DreamHack, etc.
Last year, it was literally… let me pull up my results (link to results).
At offline events, I would pretty much lose in the first or second round of everything. I went to gfinity, lost to sacri twice in the group stage, the first round of the tournament. At DreamHack Tours, I lost in the group stages to PartinG, and in the Ro32 against TRUE. In IEM I lost in the Ro8 against PartinG. And in the gfinity after that I lost in the first round to MyungSiK.
It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better. If you just lose in the Ro32 all the time, there’s no room to grow ever. Before, pretty much all the foreigners who did well were the people who played in WoL early on, and already had experience from when tournaments weren’t as hard. But for new people, it was super hard to break out. Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
Once you get that level of results, I think you can put up a fight against Koreans, because you feel like you’ve achieved something and you know how to play further in tournaments, under pressure.
How has this year changed your outlook on progaming going forward?
I always felt like I could continue progaming. I probably would have started my studies a bit earlier if it was the same story. If you’re like seventeen—I think that was the first year I got into WCS—and all your friends are just working in the supermarket and you make $10,000 in one year, it’s nice. Once you’re like twenty, twenty-one and you’re still making like $10,000 a year, you’re like "I guess I’m gonna have to do something else." And now we’re actually making money, it doesn’t feel bad to continue progaming for a bit.
What could have been better about WCS 2016? What changes should be made next year?
We actually all had a long chat with Blizzard about this at DreamHack Montreal. I think the biggest thing was that the formats of tournaments were absolutely terrible.
The single elimination Ro32?
Yeah. Here’s a good example.
TRUE won a single elimination tournament, beating two players who were top eight in WCS points. And I won a single elimination tournament beating four players who were in the top eight. His format wasn’t harder, it wasn’t a harder tournament. But his just happened to have more points points and money. I think I actually won a harder tournament than TRUE did, but he just got lucky and won the right tournament.
I think that was the biggest problem. There has to be some way to distinguish the tournaments. Everything is single elimination. We told Adrian (of Blizzard esports) that if you had that format at IEM or DreamHack Open, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. But what does a WCS tournament even mean if it’s a single elimination bracket? So first of all, we suggested they take a different format for sure. Most of us—I think twenty of the thirty-two players, including the Chinese players, were there—most of us agreed, the DreamHack Winter format was really good, the six man round robin groups.
Just imagine—there’s only three WCS tournaments a year—imagine if a Dota Major had a single elimination bracket, or the International. Just imagine how dumb that would be. That was really the biggest problem everyone had.
Besides that we talked a bit about player conditions. Some events don’t even have food for the players, some events the chairs are terrible, just general stuff like that. Blizzard has requirements regarding player conditions if you want to hold a WCS tournament like DH, and we told them they could require better conditions. For example, at DreamHack Montreal, if you played on the B-stream, you were kinda fucked because the chairs there were so low your wrists would just hurt all the time. On the main stream, and also the B-stream, the tables were super shaky and the conditions were not that good for most of the tournament. It wouldn’t be as bad if it was a DH open, but for a WCS tournament, stuff like that has to be on point.
But in terms of the big picture, you’re happy with this year.
I guess so. I think it’s pretty good. Like, the idea of WCS is good, but the execution was not that great, I think. There’s a lot of small issues here and there. The planning of the events is always pretty bad. Blizzard knows dates of qualifiers and stuff like that way before we get to know. It’s not like they know one month before and we find out three weeks before. Blizzard has a schedule with all their events and qualifiers and stuff. For example, for the qualifiers for the last WCS in Montreal, Blizzard knew the dates three months before, and they told us like one week before. The scheduling is really not that good.
Okay I think we're reaching the end of most reader's attention span. Final comments? Anything funny?
I can’t really think of anything, I woke up not long ago and my brain is kind of fried right now.
While it's cool, people actually recognize more foreigners now and stuff, I still think Korean e-sports deserves way more. At the very least, there need to be more global events (global, as in, EVERYONE, not the kind of global where it's everyone but Korea). How do foreigners stack against Koreans? Literally, the only Foreigner vs Korean content you see is from Neeb and Scarlett playing in Asian cups. I suppose you have TRUE / Polt / Violet vs Foreigners, but that isn't quite the same...
uThermal seems like a solid player, but I find it hard to care about him (no offense meant) when he's still only at the level of some medium-tier Koreans. I really do hope most of the Koreans have comparable incomes, cause it's just sort of ridiculous for one to play the same game, be better at the game, but be rewarded so much less for it.
But definitely agree with him & others that Single Elim is garbage. Loser's bracket or group stages are important. Getting an unlucky bracket draw is like, the worst...
Awesome Headline. Evil evil Koreans! They are responsible for all the bad things! Was about time for some bashing! Stardust being on foreigner level was funny. Especially when he won several tournaments. You know, like Foreigners usually do. And how exactly was TRUE accomplishment so much easier?
It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro.
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
Wow - sorry but can't disagree with this more. To make the argument that lowering the bar for competition makes players better is altruistic delusion. I can understand the point of no Koreans makes for more motivation which can lead to more practice and getting better -but then let's put the blame on the individuals who are actually responsible for you not getting better (you!) not the better players who are knocking you out of tournaments via their hard work and dedication - I can't think of a single example where nerfing competition has actually produced a stronger evolution in any facet of reality. We should just be open and honest about the situation and call the current WCS what it is - the B league - and the salaries and prize pools should scale down with it. It's ridiculous how many pro Kr players who have put in insane hours and work over the last 5 years have been forced into retirement because we've decided to create the WCS welfare program. Sorry for you guys..but since you, just like the rest of the WCS field - can't compete with the best in Korea - you're sol..but for the rest of the world we're going to glorify you and have you make a living off it. Of course what Harstem said pissed all of them off - but at least he had the balls to be honest - and my respect for him has grown tremendously based on that - it's not easy to admit something to the public that has the potential to negatively influence you financially - huge props to him for understanding the difference between wealth and value - that type of mentality will help him for the rest of his life in whatever endeavors he decides to take on.
lol honestly the more I read this I can't help but feel the interviewer was setting him up - like even the headline!? "if you lose to koreans...you can't get bettter...!" I feel like if he re-read that statement even one time he'd have been like... wait a minute.. that sounds absolutely fucking insane.. please don't post that! LOL what planet is this??!
My ideal system would be something more similar to 2013/2014; whatever korean wants to attend WCS just has to move to somewhere other than KR and provide proof of residence. No VISA requirement. But, you make it so they also need residence in order to attend Dreamhacks, or IEMs, or any foreign tournament like that. That way, we get more koreans, but those koreans will have to be part of the foreign ecosystem (say, for ladder) and will actively grow the scene instead of stealing from it. I think that's perfect - or at least close to perfect - for everyone involved.
Couldn't help but think about the 'Carrot on a stick' idiom when reading over this. Hard to say if motivating players to stick with the game is really even healthy for the game overall. I think the way WCS is structured now would have been excellent for the game early on, now that things have deflated a bit it feels like the opposite.
Im quite old guy and i can remember a time where the people played a game for fun and even reached great skill level, without making money while doing so. If the players arent motivated to get better i conclude the game is too bad to motivate them on its own. I dont want to start the whole the game is dead stuff, but a interview like this makes me quite sad to be honest.
On August 27 2016 05:45 Blargh wrote: While it's cool, people actually recognize more foreigners now and stuff, I still think Korean e-sports deserves way more. At the very least, there need to be more global events (global, as in, EVERYONE, not the kind of global where it's everyone but Korea). How do foreigners stack against Koreans? Literally, the only Foreigner vs Korean content you see is from Neeb and Scarlett playing in Asian cups. I suppose you have TRUE / Polt / Violet vs Foreigners, but that isn't quite the same...
Can't disagree with that. The WCS changes might not be as controversial if the Koreans weren't sitting around doing nothing for most of this year.
Next year, I want them to start with 6 Korean leagues and Blizzcon, and then decide what they want to do with helping the foreigners out.
FCK region-locked all because the Na player sucked and couldnt do shit -.- what a joke they bitch and cry the Koreans are better then us we cant win anything what a fucking joke-.- and people wonder why Sc2 is dying no fucking wonder. nd i dont care if this get me banned or not but FUCK THE NEW WCS
Nice interview. Motivation is a big part of performance in any job and the ones saying foreigners jusf have to work harder are missing the point. I look forward to your (and all other foreigner) performance at Blizzcon.
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro.
It's all bullshit, his not dumb, he knows that without Koreans , it's way easier to get money.
Easier path > better results > more money.
No foreign wants to really become better then a code s players, they know it's impossible.
Also I really dislike bullshit, I know his a Terran player and his used to this kind of behaviour but damn so much bullshit in his words.
I'm pretty moderate on the whole 'foreigners have gotten better' thing. I think the system has certainly contributed to them getting better to some extent - uThermal, Neeb, Elazer, ShoWTimE were all probably going to become great foreigners regardless, but I do think that process was made more dramatic by the changes, either by making it faster or more effective. I do think they've gotten better, but nothing too ridiculous; the players who are super sick now (Nerchio, Neeb, Polt) would probably be super sick regardless, but there's a lot of moderate improvement across the board.
On August 27 2016 06:28 stuchiu wrote: I disagree on everyone getting better. Some notable examples got worse.
They got worse because everyone around them got better, that's the point and just shows that the WCS system is working for foreigners
I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is.
On August 27 2016 06:28 stuchiu wrote: I disagree on everyone getting better. Some notable examples got worse.
They got worse because everyone around them got better, that's the point and just shows that the WCS system is working for foreigners
I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is.
I agree with this, but I also think it's important to say - he definitely did not get worse because of the system. He got worse because the meta shifted away from what he was good at, and he was never all that good at other things, and other players (especially SortOf) getting better made it more obvious.
What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
God I can't wait for Blizzcon this year to shut everyone up.
When KeSPA was sending over Flash, Rain, sOs, herO, Life, and soO the tournaments were WAY harder than they are now for a foreigner to win. Who does anyone think they're kidding?
We have Koreans in WCS sure, we have Koreans in major foreign tournaments sure, but it IS NOT the same thing as it was before, the overall level of competition in these foreign events has gone WAY down.
Taeja would be sweeping these tournaments just like he was before only he'd be doing it without having to go through people like Zest or Life to do it. It's a complete false equivalency to compare tournaments now from a few years ago just because X number of Koreans are playing.
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
You can't become a better player, because there are players who are better than you who don't play against you because they're from a different region (a more competitive/better region), and therefor you can never practice against them, unless you give up your life and move to Korea. The solution is to incentivize KR players to play in EU/NA ladders if they want to play in EU/NA, therefor making EU/NA as a whole more competitive, by making ladder better and making practice better.
On August 27 2016 06:34 Soularion wrote: I'm pretty moderate on the whole 'foreigners have gotten better' thing. I think the system has certainly contributed to them getting better to some extent - uThermal, Neeb, Elazer, ShoWTimE were all probably going to become great foreigners regardless, but I do think that process was made more dramatic by the changes, either by making it faster or more effective. I do think they've gotten better, but nothing too ridiculous; the players who are super sick now (Nerchio, Neeb, Polt) would probably be super sick regardless, but there's a lot of moderate improvement across the board.
If we didn't get more chances than in the past I would definitely be continuing my studies and right now I am full time instead. People don't realise that it was never the case that foreigners are lazy. In this infrastructure of Starcraft 2 with Kespa and everyone else there was no place for foreigners to catch up without changes to the core system.
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
When others are so much better than you that you feel hopeless while you lose against them, and this happens over and over again, and you make almost no money from tournaments as a progamer because the rest of the competition is so far ahead of you that catching up could take years, you start to lose motivation. Seems pretty normal to me.
I wonder how much of this "improvement" is WCS and how much of it were the changes to Legacy of the Void.
On August 27 2016 06:28 stuchiu wrote: I disagree on everyone getting better. Some notable examples got worse.
They got worse because everyone around them got better, that's the point and just shows that the WCS system is working for foreigners
I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is.
I agree with this, but I also think it's important to say - he definitely did not get worse because of the system. He got worse because the meta shifted away from what he was good at, and he was never all that good at other things, and other players (especially SortOf) getting better made it more obvious.
Let's just not forget that there is actually no way to quantify whether they got worse or better because they aren't playing the same game anymore. Logic and rationality: Value creates wealth (being good at something creates results which creates wealth) not the other way around - results don't mean that your value has improved in this case - because the competition has been nerfed - Blizzcon will be a shining example of this. Honestly I'm surprised to hear Nerchio weigh in here - from an observers perspective he's always been the guy to push forward and persevere no matter what - no retirement talks during poor results in tournaments filled with Koreans - just always doing anything he can to get better..these guys must have started a foreigner union serving out that koolaid to say and do whatever they can to have this system last as long possible for them to rake in as much dough as possible - there's no way a guy like that is wired to believe that playing vs worse opponents is making him better rofl - I can't possibly believe it.
On August 27 2016 06:28 stuchiu wrote: I disagree on everyone getting better. Some notable examples got worse.
They got worse because everyone around them got better, that's the point and just shows that the WCS system is working for foreigners
I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is.
It's not his style , almost all dead brain Protoss players where doing 2 base immortals and 2 mass stalkers/sentry.
Then the Ravager was added and he couldn't do that bullshit.
I guess losing the ability to abuse something shows how skillful he was.
Take the adept out and you will see a lot more players like him who are just in the game because David Kim allows it.
Bastiat and Hazlitt give good warnings. What is seen and what is not seen. The effects of a policy on a special interest group vs the long term effects on everyone else. Of course uThermal has... incentive to support certain policies that improve his condition. As well do others.
We still have yet to see if foreigners can contend against the top Korean players, but I think people are dismissing one of the key experiences that the new WCS system offered to the foreigners. The opportunity to compete on the big stage at a round of 8 is a huge experience. I honestly think skill-wise the foreigners aren't too far behind the top Koreans. They may make a bit more mistakes, but just judging from raw skill I would say its near even.
But skill is only half the equation. Playing in front of a large audience of thousands can be intimidating, and the nerves will affect their games. Giving our foreigners an opportunity to be in the forefront is huge for their success.
I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I think this is a fair argument, and we should counteract it by having three seasons of play instead of just two. It's kind of weird to see KR going back to 2-seasons when 3 worked so well, but I imagine part of it is just because of the start of LotV. If you go towards making it 3 seasons for 2017, then we'll see effectively the same korean scene, and I think you should enjoy things a lot more
On August 27 2016 06:34 Soularion wrote: I'm pretty moderate on the whole 'foreigners have gotten better' thing. I think the system has certainly contributed to them getting better to some extent - uThermal, Neeb, Elazer, ShoWTimE were all probably going to become great foreigners regardless, but I do think that process was made more dramatic by the changes, either by making it faster or more effective. I do think they've gotten better, but nothing too ridiculous; the players who are super sick now (Nerchio, Neeb, Polt) would probably be super sick regardless, but there's a lot of moderate improvement across the board.
If we didn't get more chances than in the past I would definitely be continuing my studies and right now I am full time instead. People don't realise that it was never the case that foreigners are lazy. In this infrastructure of Starcraft 2 with Kespa and everyone else there was no place for foreigners to catch up without changes to the core system.
This is a very good reason actually. Being a pro in Europe is hard and the new WCS system makes ppl stay instead of quitting. Now i would love to see several global events a year too but if this year is sort of like a transition it s OK
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I think this is a fair argument, and we should counteract it by having three seasons of play instead of just two. It's kind of weird to see KR going back to 2-seasons when 3 worked so well, but I imagine part of it is just because of the start of LotV. If you go towards making it 3 seasons for 2017, then we'll see effectively the same korean scene, and I think you should enjoy things a lot more
Yes, true, but I still won't want to watch DH/IEM, and it felt like in 2015 there were tournaments I wanted to see every week. Plus no gfinity/UK tournaments this year which is also sad.
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I'm with you.
I used to wake up early on my day off to watch Dreamhack and I'd spend all day with the stream open (or usually multiple streams) in order to see the whole thing.
Now? I'll check the brackets and maybe stick around for a semifinal or a final if I like who's playing but otherwise I don't bother.
What kills me is that my schedule now keeps from me from consistently watching GSL and SSL so I'm even more annoyed that the Starcraft I CAN watch is this forced region lock shit.
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I'm with you.
I used to wake up early on my day off to watch Dreamhack and I'd spend all day with the stream open (or usually multiple streams) in order to see the whole thing.
Now? I'll check the brackets and maybe stick around for a semifinal or a final if I like who's playing but otherwise I don't bother.
What kills me is that my schedule now keeps from me from consistently watching GSL and SSL so I'm even more annoyed that the Starcraft I CAN watch is this forced region lock shit.
Yeah I'm exactly the same, weekends with theseevents used to be really exciting and there was a reason to cheer for a foreigner to go for an upset. If Drogo/uthermal/Harstem/whoever wins idc because they only beat some other foreigners or second rate Koreans.
On August 27 2016 06:47 Waxangel wrote: Whenever this topic comes up, I feel like a lot of us are just arguing our broader, societal ideologies rather than the facts.
lol I can almost agree with this - but it's factual that evolution is rooted in competition - Factual that one kid in front a PC with chess program set to the easiest difficulty without ever raising it will improve at a drastically slower pace than sitting that same kid up and keeping at 1 level above his skill.
Sure - you wouldn't sit him there on GM from the start - because he'd lose interest.
BUT - you also wouldn't pay him a salary to keep beating the level 1 cpu over and over and praise him as a champion..if you did - you wouldn't be doing him a service at all for when he actually has to fend for himself in reality (post progamer career etc).
On August 27 2016 06:47 Waxangel wrote: Whenever this topic comes up, I feel like a lot of us are just arguing our broader, societal ideologies rather than the facts.
lol I can almost agree with this - but it's factual that evolution is rooted in competition - Factual that one kid in front a PC with chess program set to the easiest difficulty without ever raising it will improve at a drastically slower pace than sitting that same kid up and keeping at 1 level above his skill.
Sure - you wouldn't sit him there on GM from the start - because he'd lose interest.
BUT - you also wouldn't pay him a salary to keep beating the level 1 cpu over and over and praise him as a champion..if you did - you wouldn't be doing him a service at all for when he actually has to fend for himself in reality (post progamer career etc).
The metaphor here isn't what you described. A closer metaphor would be this-
You train a kid against a level 5 - moderate difficulty - CPU, without giving him money. And after playing against the level 5 CPU for a few weeks, you put him up against a level 9 CPU and say that, if he wins the match, he'll get $2000. But he doesn't practice against that CPU, so how is he going to win? So he loses, and he feels disappointed in himself.
Now, it's more like he's getting rewarded for winning against the level 5 CPU, which I still feel is a bit too charitable, yes, but the answer isn't to go back to 'fuck you if you cant beat the best players w/o practice against them'. The answer is pretty obviously to just let the kid practice against the CPU he's facing, regardless of how high level it is; a ladder-based region lock would make more sense for this, although hard to enforce.
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
You can't become a better player, because there are players who are better than you who don't play against you because they're from a different region (a more competitive/better region), and therefor you can never practice against them, unless you give up your life and move to Korea. The solution is to incentivize KR players to play in EU/NA ladders if they want to play in EU/NA, therefor making EU/NA as a whole more competitive, by making ladder better and making practice better.
So why should korean players go play EU/NA ladders for worse ping and worse level of play? Your argument would make more sense if you said that EU/NA players should ladder in KR.
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
When others are so much better than you that you feel hopeless while you lose against them, and this happens over and over again, and you make almost no money from tournaments as a progamer because the rest of the competition is so far ahead of you that catching up could take years, you start to lose motivation. Seems pretty normal to me.
I wonder how much of this "improvement" is WCS and how much of it were the changes to Legacy of the Void.
So how is that different for new korean players? They still manage to get to that level. Foreigners and koreans also had the same starting point. Koreans just moved ahead because of better training environment (which was actually a lot worse than in BW btw.).
On August 27 2016 06:34 Soularion wrote: I'm pretty moderate on the whole 'foreigners have gotten better' thing. I think the system has certainly contributed to them getting better to some extent - uThermal, Neeb, Elazer, ShoWTimE were all probably going to become great foreigners regardless, but I do think that process was made more dramatic by the changes, either by making it faster or more effective. I do think they've gotten better, but nothing too ridiculous; the players who are super sick now (Nerchio, Neeb, Polt) would probably be super sick regardless, but there's a lot of moderate improvement across the board.
If we didn't get more chances than in the past I would definitely be continuing my studies and right now I am full time instead. People don't realise that it was never the case that foreigners are lazy. In this infrastructure of Starcraft 2 with Kespa and everyone else there was no place for foreigners to catch up without changes to the core system.
I wouldn't say foreigners are lazy at all. It's just the way of training. Your progress, especially at high level, depends a lot on how the training is managed. I got the feeling that most foreigners always created their own schedule depending on what they were thinking was best while koreans had the benefit of team houses with people with years of experience in how to organise training. Even if it was more casual than in BW it still gave them a good advantage over time. Team houses outside of korea never existed to that extent and the community of pros/clans never felt like sitting together and continuously working on training schedules.
On August 27 2016 05:12 Waxangel quoting uThermal: I guess so. I think it’s pretty good. Like, the idea of WCS is good, but the execution was not that great, I think. There’s a lot of small issues here and there. The planning of the events is always pretty bad. Blizzard knows dates of qualifiers and stuff like that way before we get to know. It’s not like they know one month before and we find out three weeks before. Blizzard has a schedule with all their events and qualifiers and stuff. For example, for the qualifiers for the last WCS in Montreal, Blizzard knew the dates three months before, and they told us like one week before. The scheduling is really not that good.
Blizzard is great at making games and lousy at running competitive leagues. Could James Naismith have done what David Stern/Adam Silver do? nah. how many game did Stern and Silver create? zero. Naismith and Silver/Stern are in totally different professions.
Blizzard needs to have the balls to find the right promoter and put the SC2 competitive leagues in their hands. At this point I guess that would be ATVI's new esports subsidiary.
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
You can't become a better player, because there are players who are better than you who don't play against you because they're from a different region (a more competitive/better region), and therefor you can never practice against them, unless you give up your life and move to Korea. The solution is to incentivize KR players to play in EU/NA ladders if they want to play in EU/NA, therefor making EU/NA as a whole more competitive, by making ladder better and making practice better.
So why should korean players go play EU/NA ladders for worse ping and worse level of play? Your argument would make more sense if you said that EU/NA players should ladder in KR.
I'm saying that, if korean players want to play in EU/NA leagues, they should be required to play in EU/NA ladders. Just like if foreign players would want to play in KR, they'd have to play in KR ladders. I think this makes sense, and it would make the competition much more balanced. If you want to play tournaments against EU players, you play ladder against EU players. If they complain about the worse level of play/worse ping- why are they trying to play in foreign tournaments? Just stick to GSL.
On August 27 2016 06:47 Waxangel wrote: Whenever this topic comes up, I feel like a lot of us are just arguing our broader, societal ideologies rather than the facts.
lol I can almost agree with this - but it's factual that evolution is rooted in competition - Factual that one kid in front a PC with chess program set to the easiest difficulty without ever raising it will improve at a drastically slower pace than sitting that same kid up and keeping at 1 level above his skill.
Sure - you wouldn't sit him there on GM from the start - because he'd lose interest.
BUT - you also wouldn't pay him a salary to keep beating the level 1 cpu over and over and praise him as a champion..if you did - you wouldn't be doing him a service at all for when he actually has to fend for himself in reality (post progamer career etc).
The metaphor here isn't what you described. A closer metaphor would be this-
You train a kid against a level 5 - moderate difficulty - CPU, without giving him money. And after playing against the level 5 CPU for a few weeks, you put him up against a level 9 CPU and say that, if he wins the match, he'll get $2000. But he doesn't practice against that CPU, so how is he going to win? So he loses, and he feels disappointed in himself.
Now, it's more like he's getting rewarded for winning against the level 5 CPU, which I still feel is a bit too charitable, yes, but the answer isn't to go back to 'fuck you if you cant beat the best players w/o practice against them'. The answer is pretty obviously to just let the kid practice against the CPU he's facing, regardless of how high level it is; a ladder-based region lock would make more sense for this, although hard to enforce.
Yeah not sure I agree - there's nothing stopping any progamer from laddering on KR as much as they want - even with bad ping - that's even better practice rofl - if it was a game where you literally couldn't practice on the same level - I'd be with you there - but there are so many ways to practice this game - I really don't feel like there is some kind inherent disadvantage to foreign players regarding their practice - When the Kr players moved to EU and NA to compete you had an even better setting for practice - imo
Okay, the WCS system has been like this for almost a year now. I am way beyond giving a singular fuck about the region lock of existing weekenders.
Even if foreigners improved relatively to Koreans, what does it matter when they never play against each other? You build them up and make them strong for what? So that the same 10 players can block the top of the WCS rankings? Even at Blizzcon, it's not 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans. It's 8 high level Code S players, 3 much weaker Koreans (maybe 4 if viOlet actually sneaks his way in there) and 4 to 5 top non-Koreans. Will those 4 or 5 go deep? Probably not, at least not all of them. In the end we'll probably not get that much direct comparison between top Koreans and top non-Koreans.
That's a shame. I want to see foreigners walk the walk, not just talk the talk. I want Nerchio to either show the world that Korean Zergs are inferior, or get shut up. Invitationals, Korea vs the world matches, whatever. Something. Even if it's not global events because the requirements turned out to be too high and no organizer wants to spend that much money, give players from both sides the chance to show themselves. But I guess SHOUTcraft Kings is all we get this year in terms of high level cross WCS competition. And that's "just" online.
The non-Koreans can make a living from this just fine, and I'm happy for them. But as a viewer who wants to see this kind of stuff, this year was difficult. Which is to say shit.
On August 27 2016 06:40 Nerchio wrote: If we didn't get more chances than in the past I would definitely be continuing my studies and right now I am full time instead. People don't realise that it was never the case that foreigners are lazy. In this infrastructure of Starcraft 2 with Kespa and everyone else there was no place for foreigners to catch up without changes to the core system.
How long do you think it will take for the foreigners to catch up so that we can unlock the region again?
Look at the end of the day, Blizz can throw money at foreign players in order for them to be able to live and play Starcraft and pursue the dream of being in e-sports. Fine that's a cool cause and I'm happy these guys are able to make a living now.
But we need to STOP pretending that winning a championship in this new "charitable" format has any of the same prestige that it did before.
Who gets the money doesn't bug me nearly as much as the fake laurels we're awarding people now just because they managed to get past Polt or Hydra once in a tournament usually thanks to some nice bracket luck.
That's the compromise that needs to be reached here. So many of the advocates for region locking are arguing for the players to be able to support themselves, fine I can see the passion for that cause even if I disagree with it, but please stop pretending that it's anything other than welfare money under the current system.
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive.
You can't become a better player, because there are players who are better than you who don't play against you because they're from a different region (a more competitive/better region), and therefor you can never practice against them, unless you give up your life and move to Korea. The solution is to incentivize KR players to play in EU/NA ladders if they want to play in EU/NA, therefor making EU/NA as a whole more competitive, by making ladder better and making practice better.
So why should korean players go play EU/NA ladders for worse ping and worse level of play? Your argument would make more sense if you said that EU/NA players should ladder in KR.
I'm saying that, if korean players want to play in EU/NA leagues, they should be required to play in EU/NA ladders. Just like if foreign players would want to play in KR, they'd have to play in KR ladders. I think this makes sense, and it would make the competition much more balanced. If you want to play tournaments against EU players, you play ladder against EU players. If they complain about the worse level of play/worse ping- why are they trying to play in foreign tournaments? Just stick to GSL.
Yeah ok, but that's an entirely different topic. The argument was that players can't become better because there is nobody to train with. If you want to become better look out of better practice partners. Which means for foreigners to look for koreans not the other way around.
The other question is easy: Money. If I could grab an easy 50k why wouldn't I try doing so?
On August 27 2016 06:40 Nerchio wrote: If we didn't get more chances than in the past I would definitely be continuing my studies and right now I am full time instead. People don't realise that it was never the case that foreigners are lazy. In this infrastructure of Starcraft 2 with Kespa and everyone else there was no place for foreigners to catch up without changes to the core system.
How long do you think it will take for the foreigners to catch up so that we can unlock the region again?
Maybe one more week of intense practice and we can rethink the system again
On August 27 2016 06:57 Miragee wrote: So how is that different for new korean players? They still manage to get to that level. Foreigners and koreans also had the same starting point. Koreans just moved ahead because of better training environment
Almost no new Korean players manage to actually break through anymore, it's been that way for a while now. Other players are too far ahead for them to even get through Code A qualifiers or the like. If they get signed as practice partners to Proleague teams, or even entirely to the teams as rookies, they don't even get roster spots on small teams like CJ Entus.
You'd have to be incredibly talented to be a genuinely new player (unlike for instance KT SpeeD, who was a practice partner for years, then retired, unretired and then finally made Code S for the first time, so not actually a new player) to make it now. Maybe there'll be enough retirements this year for those spots to slowly open up though, who knows.
I understand that the WCS system is indeed good for the foreign community, and said community has produced some surprisingly entertaining games. But attitudes like those of uThermal make me laugh. Maybe you're marginally better on stage because you don't have as much jitters playing under pressure, but don't even pretend that you're objectively better at the game, mechanically or strategically.
For me, this last WCS championship was irrefutable evidence of how WCS region lock has boosted foreign pros' egos and wallets, and not much else. TRUE, someone who hasn't touched the Ro8 in SSL and GSL in eons, just strolled through Snute, Harstem, Welmu, Heromarine, and Polt, and given the opportunity, he probably would've done the same to every other competitor there, considering how comfortably he won every match. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at that tournament, look at what happens when a single Korea-trained Korean is let loose on the foreign scene, and agree with uThermal's comments.
On August 27 2016 07:09 scbwsc2 wrote: I understand that the WCS system is indeed good for the foreign community, and said community has produced some surprisingly entertaining games. But attitudes like those of uThermal make me laugh. Maybe you're marginally better on stage because you don't have as much jitters playing under pressure, but don't even pretend that you're objectively better at the game, mechanically or strategically.
For me, this last WCS championship was irrefutable evidence of how WCS region lock has boosted foreign pros' egos and wallets, and not much else. TRUE, someone who hasn't touched the Ro8 in SSL and GSL in eons, just strolled through Snute, Harstem, Welmu, Heromarine, and Polt, and given the opportunity, he probably would've done the same to every other competitor there, considering how comfortably he won every match. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at that tournament, look at what happens when a single Korea-trained Korean is let loose on the foreign scene, and agree with uThermal's comments.
But the only top foreigner he played was Snute, who had lost in the very same matchup to Guru of all people the tournament before. If you look at HomeStory Cup, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. If you look at online competitions, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. Was he the best player at Montreal? Probably, and definitely arguably, but there's no evidence to point to him being the best in the west right now, let alone by the margin you claim.
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I think this is a fair argument, and we should counteract it by having three seasons of play instead of just two. It's kind of weird to see KR going back to 2-seasons when 3 worked so well, but I imagine part of it is just because of the start of LotV. If you go towards making it 3 seasons for 2017, then we'll see effectively the same korean scene, and I think you should enjoy things a lot more
I'm sure the absolute main reason KR went to 2 seasons of SSL/GSL and 3 rounds of Proleague is money and without more money they won't just go back.
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I think this is a fair argument, and we should counteract it by having three seasons of play instead of just two. It's kind of weird to see KR going back to 2-seasons when 3 worked so well, but I imagine part of it is just because of the start of LotV. If you go towards making it 3 seasons for 2017, then we'll see effectively the same korean scene, and I think you should enjoy things a lot more
I'm sure the absolute main reason KR went to 2 seasons of SSL/GSL and 3 rounds of Proleague is money.
Well, hopefully Blizzard can find a way to ameliorate the Korean scene, but if it's a purely money thing then I don't think people can complain too much. Unfortunately. :/
Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff :
1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest.
2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think.
Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships.
On August 27 2016 07:09 scbwsc2 wrote: I understand that the WCS system is indeed good for the foreign community, and said community has produced some surprisingly entertaining games. But attitudes like those of uThermal make me laugh. Maybe you're marginally better on stage because you don't have as much jitters playing under pressure, but don't even pretend that you're objectively better at the game, mechanically or strategically.
For me, this last WCS championship was irrefutable evidence of how WCS region lock has boosted foreign pros' egos and wallets, and not much else. TRUE, someone who hasn't touched the Ro8 in SSL and GSL in eons, just strolled through Snute, Harstem, Welmu, Heromarine, and Polt, and given the opportunity, he probably would've done the same to every other competitor there, considering how comfortably he won every match. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at that tournament, look at what happens when a single Korea-trained Korean is let loose on the foreign scene, and agree with uThermal's comments.
But the only top foreigner he played was Snute, who had lost in the very same matchup to Guru of all people the tournament before. If you look at HomeStory Cup, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. If you look at online competitions, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. Was he the best player at Montreal? Probably, and definitely arguably, but there's no evidence to point to him being the best in the west right now, let alone by the margin you claim.
Oh please.
Stick Snute or ANY top foreigner into a Korean tournament and we can crash reddit if they make it out of the first round. But when we see GSL or SSL Koreans stop into a Dreamhack they win the entire tournament. This isn't a coincidence when it happens so frequently.
Is True as good as he looked at Montreal? Probably not. Is True a really good indicator of how wide the skill divide is between WCS and WCS Korea still? Absolutely.
Region locking isn't narrowing that divide. True just gave us a big clue to that and Blizzcon is going to settle that argument.
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year.
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August.
I think this is a fair argument, and we should counteract it by having three seasons of play instead of just two. It's kind of weird to see KR going back to 2-seasons when 3 worked so well, but I imagine part of it is just because of the start of LotV. If you go towards making it 3 seasons for 2017, then we'll see effectively the same korean scene, and I think you should enjoy things a lot more
I'm sure the absolute main reason KR went to 2 seasons of SSL/GSL and 3 rounds of Proleague is money.
Well, hopefully Blizzard can find a way to ameliorate the Korean scene, but if it's a purely money thing then I don't think people can complain too much. Unfortunately. :/
Can complain all we want. But if SKT was on the verge of not sponsoring Proleague, if SPOTV was considering dropping SSL, if GSL is basically only still alive because Mr. Chae has unlimited passion, well, I doubt they can just add extra seasons.
Blizzard tried to kinda fix that by having cross finals but that's nothing in comparison.
On August 27 2016 07:09 scbwsc2 wrote: I understand that the WCS system is indeed good for the foreign community, and said community has produced some surprisingly entertaining games. But attitudes like those of uThermal make me laugh. Maybe you're marginally better on stage because you don't have as much jitters playing under pressure, but don't even pretend that you're objectively better at the game, mechanically or strategically.
For me, this last WCS championship was irrefutable evidence of how WCS region lock has boosted foreign pros' egos and wallets, and not much else. TRUE, someone who hasn't touched the Ro8 in SSL and GSL in eons, just strolled through Snute, Harstem, Welmu, Heromarine, and Polt, and given the opportunity, he probably would've done the same to every other competitor there, considering how comfortably he won every match. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at that tournament, look at what happens when a single Korea-trained Korean is let loose on the foreign scene, and agree with uThermal's comments.
But the only top foreigner he played was Snute, who had lost in the very same matchup to Guru of all people the tournament before. If you look at HomeStory Cup, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. If you look at online competitions, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. Was he the best player at Montreal? Probably, and definitely arguably, but there's no evidence to point to him being the best in the west right now, let alone by the margin you claim.
Oh please.
Stick Snute or ANY top foreigner into a Korean tournament and we can crash reddit if they make it out of the first round. But when we see GSL or SSL Koreans stop into a Dreamhack they win the entire tournament. This isn't a coincidence when it happens so frequently.
Is True as good as he looked at Montreal? Probably not. Is True a really good indicator of how wide the skill divide is between WCS and WCS Korea still? Absolutely.
Region locking isn't narrowing that divide. True just gave us a big clue to that and Blizzcon is going to settle that argument.
Then let us watch with bated breath for Blizzcon to find out
a non-Korean player will have to do what every Basketball player does who wants to become the best in the world.
for b-ball its learn english and move to the U. S. of by God "A" and assimilate into the NBA sub-culture. for SC its learn korean and move to South Korea like grrrr did and assimilate into the SC competitive league sub-culture.
i never heard grrr whine to Blizzard... of course, back then... no one was listening.
On August 27 2016 07:09 scbwsc2 wrote: I understand that the WCS system is indeed good for the foreign community, and said community has produced some surprisingly entertaining games. But attitudes like those of uThermal make me laugh. Maybe you're marginally better on stage because you don't have as much jitters playing under pressure, but don't even pretend that you're objectively better at the game, mechanically or strategically.
For me, this last WCS championship was irrefutable evidence of how WCS region lock has boosted foreign pros' egos and wallets, and not much else. TRUE, someone who hasn't touched the Ro8 in SSL and GSL in eons, just strolled through Snute, Harstem, Welmu, Heromarine, and Polt, and given the opportunity, he probably would've done the same to every other competitor there, considering how comfortably he won every match. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at that tournament, look at what happens when a single Korea-trained Korean is let loose on the foreign scene, and agree with uThermal's comments.
But the only top foreigner he played was Snute, who had lost in the very same matchup to Guru of all people the tournament before. If you look at HomeStory Cup, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. If you look at online competitions, you get a far less rosy picture of TRUE's success. Was he the best player at Montreal? Probably, and definitely arguably, but there's no evidence to point to him being the best in the west right now, let alone by the margin you claim.
Oh please.
Stick Snute or ANY top foreigner into a Korean tournament and we can crash reddit if they make it out of the first round. But when we see GSL or SSL Koreans stop into a Dreamhack they win the entire tournament. This isn't a coincidence when it happens so frequently.
Is True as good as he looked at Montreal? Probably not. Is True a really good indicator of how wide the skill divide is between WCS and WCS Korea still? Absolutely.
Region locking isn't narrowing that divide. True just gave us a big clue to that and Blizzcon is going to settle that argument.
Then let us watch with bated breath for Blizzcon to find out
The only way we find out anything substantial at Blizzcon is if a non-Korean makes a deep run (can't honestly expect multiple to make that happen). If every foreigner goes out in the first round people will just go "Eh business as usual". Even if it was close.
The only thing that got better is the ego and wallet. The foreign level korean Stardust, who won WCS EU and Dreamhacks, the True coming over and slithing the biggest western tournament, the players who all "improved".
All what I see is a lower skill, in Korea thanks to the low amount of events and the mass retirements, outside thanks to a inbreed system where you never improve your skill thanks to nobody there to skillcheck you, the viewernumbers are terrible (WCS Season 3 2015 finals, 75k viewers, Dreamhack Montreal? What, 50k? 45k?) the fans split over this and we are looking in a future where neither ProLeague, GSL or SSL are save for 2017 and I guess one of the 3 things gets cut.
The best system was still 2014, it wasnt just 6 pros in EU, it was MC, Yoda, First, Hyun (living in Germany, playing WCS Amerika), ForGG, Jjakji, Stardust, Golden, Patience and MMA. There was only as single korean in WCS EU, who didnt live here, it was San. Else all played on EU server with EU conditions and in EU teamhouses. While they still have been crushing souls every weekend and WCS Season, foreigners actually had the chance to become better, by hitting better players on a daily base. Now they just grind each other out, learning the details about some playstyles, people and more, but never find guys who are just straight out better, who make you play better or die trying. 2014 was the best system, if Blizzard had just changed WCS in a way, that the players in WCS couldnt pull the Taeja, Pigbaby or San. Sending the people living here home was the worst for the scene. These players have not just been straight out good, they not just improved the skill of the EU server, they also connected to the fans much more then either faceless foreigners nor far far away koreans did. They became champions but didnt jump in a plane and then go back home, they stayed here, connected to the fans. We will never have 2014 back, the year where Top Stacraft came to the fans. Now we have the year 2016, medicore Starcraft took over, medicore viewer numbers followed.
Yes it was the same with 2015 and I was very vocal against 2015, because it was the worst format for me. You kicked these 10 guys out of EU, to have faceless less competitive WCS Events where still a small amount of koreans kicked allot (but not all) asses and the weekenders still won by koreans who then had to go home, because fuck you, EU is no place for you!". At least we could watch good starcraft in matching timezones or even live. Now 2016 even that has been taken away + the group stages of the WCS Events, which have been the best Starcraft under the week. What content do we know have under the week? Korean starcraft is to early for workers and students, endless series of qualifiers for events, which are either meaningless (Dreamhack), for a joke event (WCS copa international) or for tournament with WCS standing invites and mass amount of players from all arround the world who dont get visas.
In the end its all about the money. Ofc uthermal is happy with the changes. In the world there is nothing more important nowadays. I hate when people say thanks to the fans etc because they just dont care in reality. Fuck the system.
Anyone noticed that when someone posts a reasonable post like this one -
On August 27 2016 07:15 uThermal wrote: Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff :
1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest.
2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think.
Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships.
- people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic (and trust me, I don't give a single f* about stuff on the internet). As stuchiu said above, single tournaments don't mean anything. Only after a couple of tournaments we can start to discuss patterns and consistent results. True winning last tournament doesn't mean everyone else in foreignerland is shit. It also doesn't mean he is going to dominate everything from now on. If foreigners will do badly at Blizzcon it's not going to mean anything either, it's only 1 tournament.
The only thing that got better is the ego and wallet. The foreign level korean Stardust, who won WCS EU and Dreamhacks, the True coming over and slithing the biggest western tournament, the players who all "improved".
All what I see is a lower skill, in Korea thanks to the low amount of events and the mass retirements, outside thanks to a inbreed system where you never improve your skill thanks to nobody there to skillcheck you, the viewernumbers are terrible (WCS Season 3 2015 finals, 75k viewers, Dreamhack Montreal? What, 50k? 45k?) the fans split over this and we are looking in a future where neither ProLeague, GSL or SSL are save for 2017 and I guess one of the 3 things gets cut.
The best system was still 2014, it wasnt just 6 pros in EU, it was MC, Yoda, First, Hyun (living in Germany, playing WCS Amerika), ForGG, Jjakji, Stardust, Golden, Patience and MMA. There was only as single korean in WCS EU, who didnt live here, it was San. Else all played on EU server with EU conditions and in EU teamhouses. While they still have been crushing souls every weekend and WCS Season, foreigners actually had the chance to become better, by hitting better players on a daily base. Now they just grind each other out, learning the details about some playstyles, people and more, but never find guys who are just straight out better, who make you play better or die trying. 2014 was the best system, if Blizzard had just changed WCS in a way, that the players in WCS couldnt pull the Taeja, Pigbaby or San. Sending the people living here home was the worst for the scene. These players have not just been straight out good, they not just improved the skill of the EU server, they also connected to the fans much more then either faceless foreigners nor far far away koreans did. They became champions but didnt jump in a plane and then go back home, they stayed here, connected to the fans. We will never have 2014 back, the year where Top Stacraft came to the fans. Now we have the year 2016, medicore Starcraft took over, medicore viewer numbers followed.
Yes it was the same with 2015 and I was very vocal against 2015, because it was the worst format for me. You kicked these 10 guys out of EU, to have faceless less competitive WCS Events where still a small amount of koreans kicked allot (but not all) asses and the weekenders still won by koreans who then had to go home, because fuck you, EU is no place for you!". At least we could watch good starcraft in matching timezones or even live. Now 2016 even that has been taken away + the group stages of the WCS Events, which have been the best Starcraft under the week. What content do we know have under the week? Korean starcraft is to early for workers and students, endless series of qualifiers for events, which are either meaningless (Dreamhack), for a joke event (WCS copa international) or for tournament with WCS standing invites and mass amount of players from all arround the world who dont get visas.
Yeah, Premier League where you could watch some decent Starcraft on week days in the evening was great. Removing that and replacing it with single elimination weekenders was one of the saddest things about the new WCS system. Such a shame.
I think we have to face the reality that while yes foreigners DO work hard to in their job as SC2 player, foreigners on average will NEVER become as good as the Koreans.
Foreigners had the best opportunity when SC2 was the IT Esport couple years ago but now SC2 is like the 10th esport after DotA2, LoL, CS:GO, Hearthstone, Overwatch, Call of Duty, SMITE, Smash, Street Fighter.
On August 27 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: a non-Korean player will have to do what every Basketball player does who wants to become the best in the world.
for b-ball its learn english and move to the U. S. of by God "A" and assimilate into the NBA sub-culture. for SC its learn korean and move to South Korea like grrrr did and assimilate into the SC competitive league sub-culture.
i never heard grrr whine to Blizzard... of course, back then... no one was listening.
Traditional sports is a bad comparison for the point you're trying to make. Athletes are often nurtured and incubated in healthy local scenes, and the most talented ones may decide to move to a bigger league. Also, many national associations limit the # of foreign players in the league.
On August 27 2016 07:15 uThermal wrote: Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff :
1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest.
2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think.
Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships.
Please stop, it's okay to like money. Just keep the bullshit to yourself.
1. You would lie and do even more, there are certain pro's who whine about balance even when their obviously favored in the meta or the current pattch, after all its about your own living and money is a must have for your own future.
Harstem was the only guy who had some balls to say the truth.
2. No one is saying that you guys are lazy, it's just unfair that Koreans work alot more and get a lot less money then you guys, who can afford to have a life outside of sc2.
You guys already know that you can't catch up to the top Koreans , stop pretending you are even trying because we both know that would be a waste of your own time.
3. Meh it's mostly the balance and the maps, the only notable guys who show some improvements are Neeb and Nerchio, the rest are mostly one trick pony, god bless Adepts and Liberator.
Conclusion:
You guys are better players because you grind more abusing certain units and tactics in a close system to get alot more money while preteding that the foreigners are catching up to the Koreans.
On August 27 2016 07:34 Nerchio wrote: If foreigners will do badly at Blizzcon it's not going to mean anything either, it's only 1 tournament.
And it's the only one. And that's my main problem and my personal elephant in the room. Improve all you want, as a viewer I can only watch you improve locally for 99% of the year. Blizzcon is the only time I can see if you improved globally.
That's pathetic and it really upsets me. But I still watch every WCS event I can and cheer on foreign players, because I'd rather have something little than nothing at all.
The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me...
I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015.
Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system.
Hi first thanks for the interview I write here just to express my point of view, not to reply or start a discussion (and apologies if my point doesn't come across very well, english is not my first language).
The main thing I want to say is to the "foreigner pros" (it's kind of a general category but I have the chance, since I see Nerchio uThermal, Drogo are posting here and maybe others are reading): keep it up, from a viewer perspective, this year of events has been and still is awesome!
I used to watch the main events (DH, IEM, etc.) and usually I had my favorite korean to cheer for (MC since I play toss) but I almost never got to know any foreigner pros, since all of them got eliminated very early (as you say in the interview). The best moments in these tournaments for me were when one of the european / american players could get some good results and you started to see him/her as the foreign-hope (I'm thinking Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett at some point): most of the time the hope was crushed veeeery soon, as even for these stars reaching the RO4 / semifinals was most they could do. This means that I never got to be interested in minor tournaments (here I don't know most of the naming think about all the BaseTradeTV coverage of online cups, minor tournaments, etc.).
Now *for me* this year this has changed quite a lot: - in major tournament I LOVE to see european players (and NA of course) being able to compete for the top spot. I don't care if the level of play is some % lower (if it really is) than 1-2 years ago, for me a tournament where someone like uThermal / Nerchio WINS it's much much more exciting and something I will remember. Why? Because I can relate much more with the players, I can listen to the interview and I see guys (and girls) which come from an environment (Europe for instance) that I know very well. When uThermal says they all sacrificed a lot (studies, time etc.) and they all try super hard and train a lot to become pros, I feel much more close to understand this and to cheer for them, than when I listen to TY/Zest/Dark or any of the Kespa Pros. Really guys keep going and congrats for the results you got so far! You showed AMAZING games and a LOT of people enjoyed watching you play! On this forum there is a very small group of people veeeery vocal about everything in an extremely negative way: I don't know if the rest of the community is close to their position (I can't know), but I do know that a lot of viewers DO enjoy the show you are putting up and the games you are playing.
- during a casual week, I'm much much much more inclined to watch online tournaments or qualification brackets, or whatever ZG and Rifkin are casting, because almost every time I open TL there is some stream going on with the TOP players of this year circuit playing. Today it was Polt vs Raynor or Harstem, an other day it may be Nerchio vs Snute, or Byun (GSL play btw) vs someone else... maybe it's just my perception which is somehow skewed or wrong, but I LOVE that I can get to know these players through these weekly casts, and then I also see them compete for the top spots ad DH or in WCS.
- On the same line, I think it's amazing that in this forum there is some participation of top pro players (foreigner). How awesome is it when Harstem helps you in the Protoss Strategy thread? Or when you read uThermal interview and then he answers you in the same thread :D Do you think it will EVER happen with TY/Zest/KTplayers? No it won't (I think). This (for me) makes the players much more relatable, and again when I then see them in the DH/WCS finals I know I will cheer for them.
I am sorry if these thoughts are a bit disorganized and the main message doesn't come across very well, it was kind of a stream of thoughts from reading the thread
The TL;DR for the foreign pros that may be reading is: awesome job, you made my personal SC2 experience much more enjoyable this year and I'm super happy all the hard work one has to put in to become professional in this game is paying off in terms of money/visibility/results/glory () I can't way for Blizzcon I and do really hope that some of you will make it to the last rounds, why not to the final, to challenge the Koreans!
It is reasonable for players who earn more to defend the current system. However Blizzard has to give progamers from all over the world fair space to speak for themselves other than a few players' complaints can change everything.
On August 27 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote: Hi first thanks for the interview I write here just to express my point of view, not to reply or start a discussion (and apologies if my point doesn't come across very well, english is not my first language).
The main thing I want to say is to the "foreigner pros" (it's kind of a general category but I have the chance, since I see Nerchio uThermal, Drogo are posting here and maybe others are reading): keep it up, from a viewer perspective, this year of events has been and still is awesome!
I used to watch the main events (DH, IEM, etc.) and usually I had my favorite korean to cheer for (MC since I play toss) but I almost never got to know any foreigner pros, since all of them got eliminated very early (as you say in the interview). The best moments in these tournaments for me were when one of the european / american players could get some good results and you started to see him/her as the foreign-hope (I'm thinking Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett at some point): most of the time the hope was crushed veeeery soon, as even for these stars reaching the RO4 / semifinals was most they could do. This means that I never got to be interested in minor tournaments (here I don't know most of the naming think about all the BaseTradeTV coverage of online cups, minor tournaments, etc.).
Now *for me* this year this has changed quite a lot: - in major tournament I LOVE to see european players (and NA of course) being able to compete for the top spot. I don't care if the level of play is some % lower (if it really is) than 1-2 years ago, for me a tournament where someone like uThermal / Nerchio WINS it's much much more exciting and something I will remember. Why? Because I can relate much more with the players, I can listen to the interview and I see guys (and girls) which come from an environment (Europe for instance) that I know very well. When uThermal says they all sacrificed a lot (studies, time etc.) and they all try super hard and train a lot to become pros, I feel much more close to understand this and to cheer for them, than when I listen to TY/Zest/Dark or any of the Kespa Pros. Really guys keep going and congrats for the results you got so far! You showed AMAZING games and a LOT of people enjoyed watching you play! On this forum there is a very small group of people veeeery vocal about everything in an extremely negative way: I don't know if the rest of the community is close to their position (I can't know), but I do know that a lot of viewers DO enjoy the show you are putting up and the games you are playing.
- during a casual week, I'm much much much more inclined to watch online tournaments or qualification brackets, or whatever ZG and Rifkin are casting, because almost every time I open TL there is some stream going on with the TOP players of this year circuit playing. Today it was Polt vs Raynor or Harstem, an other day it may be Nerchio vs Snute, or Byun (GSL play btw) vs someone else... maybe it's just my perception which is somehow skewed or wrong, but I LOVE that I can get to know these players through these weekly casts, and then I also see them compete for the top spots ad DH or in WCS.
- On the same line, I think it's amazing that in this forum there is some participation of top pro players (foreigner). How awesome is it when Harstem helps you in the Protoss Strategy thread? Or when you read uThermal interview and then he answers you in the same thread :D Do you think it will EVER happen with TY/Zest/KTplayers? No it won't (I think). This (for me) makes the players much more relatable, and again when I then see them in the DH/WCS finals I know I will cheer for them.
I am sorry if these thoughts are a bit disorganized and the main message doesn't come across very well, it was kind of a stream of thoughts from reading the thread
The TL;DR for the foreign pros that may be reading is: awesome job, you made my personal SC2 experience much more enjoyable this year and I'm super happy all the hard work one has to put in to become professional in this game is paying off in terms of money/visibility/results/glory () I can't way for Blizzcon I and do really hope that some of you will make it to the last rounds, why not to the final, to challenge the Koreans!
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me...
I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015.
Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system.
Says you.
I was perfectly happy with Starcraft up until the "faceless Koreans" crowd got their way and we got stuck with this ridiculous WCS system.
If you guys can bitch until you get your way then why can't I?
On August 27 2016 07:34 Nerchio wrote: - people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic
Starcraft is in the same state women's hockey is in. Just different continents and different languages. The current best female goalie had to move to NA from Finland and learn how to speak english and play in the #1 women's league in the world to become hte best goalie in the world. Because she is from Finland and had to learn English and learn to exist in the special snake pit that is the NCAA though.. no one pays much notice. Could the #1 women's forward and best scorer in the world succeed at the same level if she only spoke French? i doubt it. I'm referring to Marie Poulin. She had to learn english and exist in the NCAA. it was not easy for her. her english still isn't that great.
For a non-korean SC2 player to become the best they'll have to do what grrr did. Its a tough thing to do. BUt that is what world champions do in whatever sport they are in.
Blizzard had to implement the new WCS system or else the competitive scene would basically die outside of Korea. Last year there were only a handful of players making a livable amount of money off of tournament earnings, which is just not sustainable. Combine that with the declining number of tournaments and Blizzard had to step in to boost the amount of money in the scene. While we all miss the foreigner vs Korean storylines, the system we have now is better than nothing, unless we want to go back to BW's "no competitive scene outside of Korea" system. But I guess that's what some people want: only Koreans to be allowed to play professionally.
On August 27 2016 07:34 Nerchio wrote: - people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic
Starcraft is in the same state women's hockey is in. Just different continents and different languages. The best female goalie had to move to NA and learn how to speak english and play in the #1 women's league in the world. Because she is from Finland and had to learn English and learn to exist in the special snake pit that is the NCAA though.. no one pays much notice. Could the #1 women's forward and best scorer in the world succeed at the same level if she only spoke French? i doubt it. I'm referring to Marie Poulin. She had to learn english and exist in the NCAA. it was not easy for her. her english still isn't that great.
For a non-korean SC2 player to become the best they'll have to do what grrr did. Its a tough thing to do. BUt that is what world champions do in whatever sport they are in.
On August 27 2016 07:34 Nerchio wrote: - people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic
Starcraft is in the same state women's hockey is in. Just different continents and different languages. The best female goalie had to move to NA and learn how to speak english and play in the #1 women's league in the world. Because she is from Finland and had to learn English and learn to exist in the special snake pit that is the NCAA though.. no one pays much notice. Could the #1 women's forward and best scorer in the world succeed at the same level if she only spoke French? i doubt it. I'm referring to Marie Poulin. She had to learn english and exist in the NCAA. it was not easy for her. her english still isn't that great.
For a non-korean SC2 player to become the best they'll have to do what grrr did. Its a tough thing to do. BUt that is what world champions do in whatever sport they are in.
Again, no
well, when someone does it without learning Korean or assimilating themselves in the best korean leagues let me know. until then, grrr is our only example.
the planet does not revolve around the english language.
marie poulin, and guilliame patry all had big obstacles to overcome including culture and language on their way to becoming the best in the world. it may have meant a few brutal years for them.. .but they are champions forever.
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me...
I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015.
Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system.
And I find it astonishing that you talk about stories and personalities and faceless Koreans. I watch basically every WCS event and Korean event. The foreigners don't just intrinsically have more interesting personalities. Actually some of them are just obnoxious and should show less attitude. But because of the gigantic language barrier you don't actually experience much personality from the Korean side at all, if any. And if those "faceless Koreans" didn't create the type of stories you were interested in or don't manage to convey all their personality through interviews that get translated back and forth 3 times, that's not really their fault. Not theirs entirely, at any rate.
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro.
It's all bullshit, his not dumb, he knows that without Koreans , it's way easier to get money.
Easier path > better results > more money.
No foreign wants to really become better then a code s players, they know it's impossible.
Also I really dislike bullshit, I know his a Terran player and his used to this kind of behaviour but damn so much bullshit in his words.
On August 27 2016 07:15 uThermal wrote: Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff :
1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest.
2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think.
Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships.
- people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic (and trust me, I don't give a single f* about stuff on the internet). As stuchiu said above, single tournaments don't mean anything. Only after a couple of tournaments we can start to discuss patterns and consistent results. True winning last tournament doesn't mean everyone else in foreignerland is shit. It also doesn't mean he is going to dominate everything from now on. If foreigners will do badly at Blizzcon it's not going to mean anything either, it's only 1 tournament.
Okay, then let's respond.
1. Why wouldn't a foreign pro lie about skill levels to keep the system for longer? As we can see, it's just a case of he-said-she-said. And I've seen people do a lot worse than lie to make ~$40,000 more a year. I suppose you could argue that if it was all about the money, then you could move on to other jobs. But what other alternatives? You've spent the last 3-5 years playing video games as your main occupation. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the US, that's a big deterrent to any employer of a decent job. You could also try to go to school for another few years, but unless you have someone footing the bill, then student debts or costs of paying yourself would be prohibitively high for many.
2. No, we're not saying that you're lazing around doing *nothing* all day, but it should be noted that there is a huge gulf between doing nothing and doing the level of dedicated practice that Kespa pros do. I do acknowledge that Korea has a better infrastructure for training, with their team houses and such. However, I don't see why you cannot ask Korean pros to practice with you for just a few games a day, or figure out other ways to practice to their level. I'd like to point out the fact that Taeja almost made it to 1, almost 2 consecutive seasons of the Ro.8 in GSL while essentially teamless.
3. If you don't want to be disrespected, then call yourself out. Don't make us do it for you. If you admit that the WCS system is built to help the foreign pros get more tournament success, the community might still blast foreign tournaments as "WCS welfare" but we won't view you as a greedy and happy beneficiary of said welfare.
this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
On August 27 2016 07:15 uThermal wrote: Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff :
1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest.
2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think.
Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships.
It is not worth it to argue whether you've become better or not. When you include Chinese players to support your view did you realize that they are kind of victims to the current system? Not everyone has the same influence to Blizzard and with Koreans excluded the situation got worse.
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of.
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of.
Working in an inherently worse environment won't help, you are screwed already. Sée uThermal's answer about why going to Korea for training is not such a good idea.
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
Oh please. What a reach. There's far more to it than that, or do we forget that this isn't UNICEF and there's a company trying to make a profit here?
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
Oh please. What a reach. There's far more to it than that, or do we forget that this isn't UNICEF and there's a company trying to make a profit here?
you can make all sorts of excuses but this is how i see it
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of.
This from my point of view is not 100% true.
If you ALWAYS loose and it's not even close, and in almost every competition you are eliminated early, you are not very motivated. The strongest motivation is when you are *almost* winning but you loose to a slightly stronger opponent.
I played many years competitive sport: there were years when my team was placed in a tournament were the opponents were outclassing us. I mean we lost 10/10 games during the season. Do you think we improved much by losing ALL games by a very large margin? no we didn't. And yes it did kill the motivation at least in part. On the contrary when the opponents were close to our level, the field was much more competitive and we improved much more, because every game was close and we had to give our best to come out on top.
The point is: is a match is close you have to do 110% to win. If a match is very unbalanced (one player is much stronger than the other), the weaker player will be less motivated to do his absolute best, because most likely he will still loose. This is not something "wrong", and it doesn't happen over the span of 1 game. It happens when you constantly play vs much stronger opponents, and you feel you won't win anyway. I don't see how you cannot relate to this if you played any kind of competitive sport.
p.s. I feel to say that ANY pro player, korean or not korean, is not trying hard and is somehow "lazy" or not worth of his spot in the system, you should have some record to show. If the comment comes from an other pro I may take it seriously. If it comes from a random ladder player, it's just plain disrespectful. I see this in sport as well (it's enough to look at the olympics thread here on TL), if you are not the best people start complaining about your performance like they could have done better. Most people *do not have any idea* of what is behind a strong competitive performance, as it can be *participating* (not winning, mind you, just *being there* with the top). I read the GSL RO8 LR thread and people define TY's play as "dumb" "disgusting" "lol noob" This toxicity is ridiculous, have some respect for people that put in the hard work and the dedication to be there: they may not be perfect in their play, but all competitors deserve it. If you have to feel validated or big by despising other people, do it somewhere else.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
What haha. The korean structures are well suited for esport (see LoL and sc2) plus Koreans had an advantage from Broodwar, but you can't really benefit from it because of language barrier and in-house practice. Are you trolling or is that hard to understand?
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
motivation is bullshit anyways, if you wanna reach your goals, you need discipline. nobody in the army goes like hey guys, if you manage to do as i say ill buy a burger!
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
What haha. The korean structures are well suited for esport (see LoL and sc2) plus Koreans had an advantage from Broodwar, but you can't really benefit from it because of language barrier and in-house practice. Are you trolling or is that hard to understand?
i thought the context was motivation related since you replied to that.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT.
The very, very few times they'll actually have to play ZvT.
It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better.
This doesn't make any sense at all. It's hard to explain because it's nonsense.
Stephano never had this problem, even with all the Koreans. There were a load of foreigners who did well even during Korea's free reign on international events.
Foreigners aren't better now, they just don't compete with the actually good players anymore, thanks to Big Brother Blizzard, Dreamhack and IEM: looking out for white people who are entitled to protection. Gone are the days where we had international events, open to anyone, where the only common denominator needed was that you wanted to play Starcraft 2.
Starcraft 2, Legacy of the Welfare.
At least Harstem was straight up and honest about it. I swear to god every time I see this topic I get really pissed off at the piss that tournament organizers are taking at Korean players, who are only shit on for the sole fucking reason that they're good at the game. I just can't wrap my head around how this is a good thing.
Sorry for being rude but I can't read a topic like this and just be chill about it. Tournament organizers need to hear that some people are displeased with the way things are run. I love starcraft as much as the next guy, I hate it that Koreans aren't allowed to play in international, open events.
I'd not be opposed to regional tournaments, where indeed, the goal is to foster local heroes and talent. I'm fine with that. But blocking EVERY SINGLE INTERNATIONAL EVENT FROM KOREANS? Seriously? Despicable.
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT.
The very, very few times they'll actually have to play ZvT.
Seriously. If Byun makes it to Blizzcon there'll be a grand total of 3 Terrans.
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train
^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of.
This from my point of view is not 100% true.
If you ALWAYS loose and it's not even close, and in almost every competition you are eliminated early, you are not very motivated. The strongest motivation is when you are *almost* winning but you loose to a slightly stronger opponent.
I played many years competitive sport: there were years when my team was placed in a tournament were the opponents were outclassing us. I mean we lost 10/10 games during the season. Do you think we improved much by losing ALL games by a very large margin? no we didn't. And yes it did kill the motivation at least in part. On the contrary when the opponents were close to our level, the field was much more competitive and we improved much more, because every game was close and we had to give our best to come out on top.
The point is: is a match is close you have to do 110% to win. If a match is very unbalanced (one player is much stronger than the other), the weaker player will be less motivated to do his absolute best, because most likely he will still loose. This is not something "wrong", and it doesn't happen over the span of 1 game. It happens when you constantly play vs much stronger opponents, and you feel you won't win anyway. I don't see how you cannot relate to this if you played any kind of competitive sport.
This is true, getting stomped on 24/7 isn't the way to get better. But that isn't applicable here because there isn't an unbridgeable gap between the best foreigner and mid-tier Koreans, and likewise, there isn't an unbridgeable gap between mid and high tier Koreans (take for example, Ryung, who probably would be called mid tier for every season save this last one almost took out Byun, who is now in the semis of the GSL). So, there shouldn't ever be a point where you've beaten everyone worse than you but are horrible unfavored agains the next level of opponents. There's always someone that you can play to improve that extra 10%.
Nice interview, what he says actually reflects what we can see as viewers, on the level of play for instance, last events have been extremely exciting and foreigners really improved in offline events. But that was actually predictable despite of what some people were saying, the new system was designed to boost foreigners, and it did.
Now for the Korean part, we actually don't know what is discussed between afreeca/KeSPA and Blizzard. For instance, the choice to only have 2 season of major leagues is not Blizzard's choice but broadcaster choice, afaik.
The fact we only had one 4 men cross final, when the other years were filed with KeSPA cups or Hot6 cups, is also a choice from Korean organizer.
Not mentioning we only had 3 rounds of Proleague, with 7 teams.
So the truth is Koreans can not sustain a tournament system that would allow the scene to be as healthy as the foreign fans would like, probably for viewers and popularity issues in Korea.
The question is : will Blizzard take a grasp on the tournament organization in Korea next year, filling the system with "foreign" money, trying to catch the international fan base, get the GSL viewers numbers on twitch closer to DH/IEM and fill the downtime with advertising aimed at foreigner audience?
or will it be just Afreeca and KeSPA deciding of the future of the Korean sc2, based on the Korean viewers numbers?
It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better.
This doesn't make any sense at all. It's hard to explain because it's nonsense.
Stephano never had this problem, even with all the Koreans. There were a load of foreigners who did well even during Korea's free reign on international events.
Foreigners aren't better now, they just don't compete with the actually good players anymore, thanks to Big Brother Blizzard, Dreamhack and IEM: looking out for white people who are entitled to protection. Gone are the days where we had international events, open to anyone, where the only common denominator needed was that you wanted to play Starcraft 2.
Starcraft 2, Legacy of the Welfare.
At least Harstem was straight up and honest about it. I swear to god every time I see this topic I get really pissed off at the piss that tournament organizers are taking at Korean players, who are only shit on for the sole fucking reason that they're good at the game. I just can't wrap my head around how this is a good thing.
Sorry for being rude but I can't read a topic like this and just be chill about it. Tournament organizers need to hear that some people are displeased with the way things are run. I love starcraft as much as the next guy, I hate it that Koreans aren't allowed to play in international, open events.
I'd not be opposed to regional tournaments, where indeed, the goal is to foster local heroes and talent. I'm fine with that. But blocking EVERY SINGLE INTERNATIONAL EVENT FROM KOREANS? Seriously? Despicable.
Stephano is an anomaly. It's weird that he wasn't even in the GOAT top 15 because delivering that much in spite of being a foreigner in StarCraft shows how great he was. So you can't use him.
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately.
3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt
Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT.
The very, very few times they'll actually have to play ZvT.
Seriously. If Byun makes it to Blizzcon there'll be a grand total of 3 Terrans.
Also there's a very reasonable chance TY and Dark are in the same Ro16 group at the Global Playoffs, just saying.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
They arent even strictly region locked. Olympic athlets still have to reach certain perks prior to olympia to go there. Only a very small amount of the athlets goes there without the perks over national wild cards. And these wild cards are then used for the best, who might have been injured or came back to form too late by their nations. In Olympia you find the best in each of their discipline, everywhere (expect golf this year because the best didnt want to go). But you might also find weaker athlets alongeside them. And for these guys, there are inner olympic qualifications before the fight for gold starts in alot of disciplines. The best are not missed at olympia, they are attending and winning. World Cup also does not really region lock, but manage the slim spots to different places in the world. EU and SA still hold more slots then their national numbers make up.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
Neither do we have a league in foreignerland, nore do we have foreign restrictions. The is only a single nation that is restricted.
Also we dont have a team league, we have an individual sport without any national elements. There are almost no national leagues (like EPS which dies this weekend), there are no localised events. WCS is not a localised event for an individual sport, its a world wide event that barriers out a single ethnic.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
so you just mentionned the 2 most popular events in the world when it comes to sport, how is that a bad thing for starcraft?
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level?
I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
so you just mentionned the 2 most popular events in the world when it comes to sport, how is that a bad thing for starcraft?
Because those are special events that take place once every 4 years, not year-long leagues. I think most people here liked the original, regional WCS, which was basically the World Cup of SC2. It's when it became a year-long foreigner league that people had a problem with it.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level?
I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
Most (all?) European football (soccer) leagues have restrictions on non-EU players.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level?
I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
Many "continental" competition. Everybody enjoys the Six Nations even knowing that the All Blacks would probably win it every year.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
LoL honestly - I think the actual headline on the story is making this turn into a rage fest more than anything. It seems to be taken out of context (I know I did take it that way) as someone making a completely ludicrous statement (If we always lose to Koreans - it's not fair and we can't get good). Obviously the more you lose to a better player - the more chance you have to study and emulate what they've done - if you only ever play mediocre players you have nothing to aspire to .
Uthermal clarified his point (which was still a bad one in my opinion) but I don't think he meant the seemingly insane notion that losing games to better players makes you worse.. or that winning games vs worse players make you better.. That's what initially sent me into orbit because it's such a completely illogical thing to say.
I think what he really meant to say was - Thanks Blizzard for creating the minor league of Starcraft - it has given me and my foreigner friends the ability to get paid to do something we love - where as before we did not have that ability.
But honestly they need to re-allocate more of the funding to Korea - so that the scene that is the "major league" can thrive - that's where the game will evolve - it's not possible in the minor league. Too many amazing Korean players with ridiculous potential are fading out because of this - and while I am happy for the foreigners who have been able to stay in pro-gaming - its just overall not a good thing for the evolution of the game - the best players should stay - the one's who can't compete or "stay motivated" should find other passions - they are just selling themselves short otherwise.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline, let alone in any way related to WCS. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
im more interested in what the korean pros opinion is about wcs, about the fact that youre allowed to play from absolutely EVERYWHERE in the world, that it absolutely doesnt matter where you are from, unless you are korean, then im sorry, but you are banned from competing in most tournaments because you're korean
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
disclaimer: "you" is not uthermal, but all foreigners in general
When I read this, I feel bad. I hate it break it to you, but if you can't become as good as top Koreans when playing full-time, then you don't really have a right to be a pro gamer in the first place. Let's be real here. You don't have the work ethic, the talent, infrastructure or whatever it is that makes Korean players good and foreigners bad. They have it, you don't.
Pray tell me, what mental gymnastics do you go through that says that YOU deserve to be a pro gamer making $50k and KOREANS don't deserve that opportunity? Why do YOU deserve to be a pro gamer when Koreans are objectively better than you? Why should YOU be allowed to play the game full time in a comfortable European apartment, whereas a Korean professional who is better at the game than you are should be forced to give up on his pro gamer career and go get a shitty 9 to 5 Korean job?
The thing is, the amount of pro gamer slots is limited in the first place. So who gets those coveted pro gamer slots? Should it go to the best players? Should it instead be distributed based on regions?
Are you going to whine for me if I quit my studies to become an Age of Empires 1 pro gamer? Of course you aren't. Are you going to whine for me if I quit my studies to become a Starcraft 2 pro gamer, even though I'm a shitty diamond tier player? Of course you aren't. So why should any of us whine for you because you quit your studies to become a Starcraft 2 pro gamer, when you're unable to compete with the best players in the first place?
The thing is, in this paragraph we're taking things to the extreme. We shouldn't be. I'm painting a picture which is much darker than reality is. Honestly the WCS system isn't even that bad, however there is a severe issue with how things are unfairly slanted against Korean players.
If we were just setting aside a few tournaments and region-locking those, things would be fine. Or, you could do it the other way around and have set aside a few tournaments which are realistically still open, international events. We haven't had any of those this year. Kim Pham (Phan?) talked about grass-root tournaments for Koreans. The year is 3/4 over and so far we've seen fuck all from Blizzard, we're down to 2 GSLs a year and 2 SSLs a year, we've seen one IEM Korea which is also by the way after Blizzcon in the first place (still, any event is good, so let's be happy there's an IEM Korea at all).
I think it's fine to be happy for foreigners, but with all due respect, Korea is being treated like shit this year and I'd think it'd be better if we could have a few more OPEN and INTERNATIONAL events, where the only player requirement is that you play Starcraft 2..
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global event" per definition of blizzard and most of the people here.
On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote: aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level?
I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
Most (all?) European football (soccer) leagues have restrictions on non-EU players.
England and Germany don't. Spain and Italy do, but both rules have enough loopholes to drive trucks through.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses.
Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them.
What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses.
Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them.
What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you.
Because foreigners are spread out over the entire planet and every Korean pro player lives and trains in Seoul. If every foreign player moved into one city they'd get better training.
On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses.
Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them.
What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you.
I mean... even I'll admit that it would be difficult to create a decent teamhouse now. But it wouldn't have been hard to do it back in 2010, when there was lots of money in foreign SC2. All of the eSF teams started from nothing and built their own teamhouses back then. There's no good reason foreign teams couldn't have done the same thing.
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses.
Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them.
What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you.
Because foreigners are spread out over the entire planet and every Korean pro player lives and trains in Seoul. If every foreign player moved into one city they'd get better training.
So again - how is keeping them all there helping the situation?
I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro.
Agreed. We, as in everyone, don't really know (if foreigners got significantly better) because there hasn'nt been any direct comparison. I'm sure they're training more and are more motivated but after watching the esport for the full six years I find it hard to believe that now, all of a sudden, foreigners are (significantly) closer to Koreans in skill than before.
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure you can progress and improve alone in your room and never socialize with people of similar goals. its always better to work hard than to do nothing. However, you will always progress much better if you learn the habits of other top notch people in your field.
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Didn't EG make a teamhouse or w/e and then (im assuming here, slap me if im wrong) - the players were lazy as shit compared to koreans and half-assed their practice compared to korean pro teams and thus ended up only subpar compared to korean pros?
What you are talking about is something that *could* exist outside korea. I expect that for the most part, players probably haven't been too keen on the idea. I expect that the players that do the best right now in the foreign scene have some of the strongest work ethic. Maybe they should talk to their sponsors if they want to try to take it to another level. But why would they want to if all they have to do is take out the B level foreigners to make a good living?
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
People want the best 2 players to be in the finals - Let's not pretend that anyone who decided to move to South Korea would just automatically become a top level pro - that's a huge stretch - most foreigners who have tried it did not succeed.
On your perspective though: Why would you rather see generic canadian 1 vs generic canadian 2 if they are both worse than generic korean 1 and generic korean 2? Would you not rather watch the game played on a higher level?
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things.
In the end, passion matters very much.
Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian"
My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy.
please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote: [quote] Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things.
In the end, passion matters very much.
Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian"
My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy.
nah I'm okay with Masa and he's not white, some koreans who went out of their way like other foreigners to learn the universal language that is english are also fine
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
We (Foreigners) need more of what they (Koreans) have - not less.
We can make as many excuses as we want for why they are better - doesn't change anything or get us any closer to leveling the playing field. Everything we are doing in this year 2016 moves in the opposite direction of that.
Creating our own separate club and pretending they don't exist to make ourselves feel better is shameful - we should welcome the challenge and aspire to meet it - all this entitled bullshit I'm reading on here about every kid deserves to be a pro gamer (unless you are Korean and not in the top 1%) makes me fear for our future generations - this is the new era?
On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote: please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners
So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events?
Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft
On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote: [quote] It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Didn't EG make a teamhouse or w/e and then (im assuming here, slap me if im wrong) - the players were lazy as shit compared to koreans and half-assed their practice compared to korean pro teams and thus ended up only subpar compared to korean pros?
What you are talking about is something that *could* exist outside korea. I expect that for the most part, players probably haven't been too keen on the idea. I expect that the players that do the best right now in the foreign scene have some of the strongest work ethic. Maybe they should talk to their sponsors if they want to try to take it to another level. But why would they want to if all they have to do is take out the B level foreigners to make a good living?
I recall reading about this. However I think a huge problem is with how the foreigners practice, and who they practice with. From what I know, foreigners tend to just practice on ladder while Koreans will load up custom games to refine their builds and then practice on ladder as well as with teammates and players on other teams.
On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote: please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners
So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events?
Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft
there's the very structured team house training regime I would assume and also they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer, probably more of those in Seoul alone than the entire rest of the world
like if you throw in 10 000 koreans and 5 foreigners, odds are the #1 is going to be korean
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things.
In the end, passion matters very much.
Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian"
My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy.
nah I'm okay with Masa and he's not white, some koreans who went out of their way like other foreigners to learn the universal language that is english are also fine
Oh, is that the criteria then? So you need to speak English in order to not be a generic person? That's nice, very nice.
"Hey if you don't speak English you're a generic fuck who doesn't deserve to make a living playing starcraft, I am more deserving than you are for that role"
Barring of course the fact that you just happened to be accidentally born in a first world country which also just happens to have English as its language. tell me more about the effort you made to learn Asian languages
my god are you even thinking when you're posting this shit?
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things.
In the end, passion matters very much.
Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian"
My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy.
nah I'm okay with Masa and he's not white, some koreans who went out of their way like other foreigners to learn the universal language that is english are also fine
Oh, is that the criteria then? So you need to speak English in order to not be a generic person? That's nice, very nice.
"Hey if you don't speak English you're a generic fuck who doesn't deserve to make a living playing starcraft, I am more deserving than you are for that role"
Barring of course the fact that you just happened to be accidentally born in a first world country which also just happens to have English as its language. tell me more about the effort you made to learn Asian languages
my god are you even thinking when you're posting this shit?
It's a lot easier to convey emotion when you're not speaking through a translator.
Well I'm in the part of Canada that has french as its language, so like you I learned a 2nd language that allows me to communicate with most people who also learn english as a 2nd language, no need to get upset buddy, take a deep breath.
and yes if you want to compete internationally but are not willing to learn to communicate internationally you are a generic fuck, there are several koreans who actually made effort to speak english in interviews and it made me want to root for them a LOT more than those who used a translator
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead.
in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote: please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners
So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events?
Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft
there's the very structured team house training regime I would assume and also they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer, probably more of those in Seoul alone than the entire rest of the world
like if you throw in 10 000 koreans and 5 foreigners, odds are the #1 is going to be korean
So Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world? Thats fucking hilarious. And how do you know that every dominant korean had the insane korean teamhouse practice? That wasnt the case, especially in the beginning of SC2, when alot of koreans didnt wanted that kind of treatment anymore. And most of the dominant 2015 koreans didnt live in korea for a long time. What happend there?
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things.
In the end, passion matters very much.
Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian"
My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy.
nah I'm okay with Masa and he's not white, some koreans who went out of their way like other foreigners to learn the universal language that is english are also fine
Oh, is that the criteria then? So you need to speak English in order to not be a generic person? That's nice, very nice.
"Hey if you don't speak English you're a generic fuck who doesn't deserve to make a living playing starcraft, I am more deserving than you are for that role"
Barring of course the fact that you just happened to be accidentally born in a first world country which also just happens to have English as its language. tell me more about the effort you made to learn Asian languages
my god are you even thinking when you're posting this shit?
It's a lot easier to convey emotion when you're not speaking through a translator.
How does that in any way shape or form make a person generic? YOU can't understand them, so THEY are the ones who are generic, faceless, boring people?
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things.
In the end, passion matters very much.
Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian"
My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy.
nah I'm okay with Masa and he's not white, some koreans who went out of their way like other foreigners to learn the universal language that is english are also fine
Oh, is that the criteria then? So you need to speak English in order to not be a generic person? That's nice, very nice.
"Hey if you don't speak English you're a generic fuck who doesn't deserve to make a living playing starcraft, I am more deserving than you are for that role"
Barring of course the fact that you just happened to be accidentally born in a first world country which also just happens to have English as its language. tell me more about the effort you made to learn Asian languages
my god are you even thinking when you're posting this shit?
It's a lot easier to convey emotion when you're not speaking through a translator.
How does that in any way shape or form make a person generic? YOU can't understand them, so THEY are the ones who are generic, faceless, boring people? I'm just done with this thread
don't go, its a fascinating topic and uThermal brings up some tough issues.
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
baseball hitters are the same way. even though hitting a baseball is a 100% individual activity. the best MLB hitters all work together in teams. its the best environment to become the best hitter you can be.
On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote: I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
People want the best 2 players to be in the finals - Let's not pretend that anyone who decided to move to South Korea would just automatically become a top level pro - that's a huge stretch - most foreigners who have tried it did not succeed.
On your perspective though: Why would you rather see generic canadian 1 vs generic canadian 2 if they are both worse than generic korean 1 and generic korean 2? Would you not rather watch the game played on a higher level?
The generalization that "everyone wants to see the highest level of competition" is false. If that were the case, nobody would cheer for their hometown players/teams if they were considered "worse", and there would be no such thing as "cheering for the underdog".
A Canadian crowd isn't going to look at Scarlett making a finals as "well the best players didn't make the finals so this is pointless to care about". Nationalism and "the unlikely hero" prove that to be false.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead.
in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
sure, thats a individual. but you would be rather naive if you thought there wasnt anyone in the world good in their particular field of work without being surrounded by superstars.
On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote: please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners
So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events?
Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead.
in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
sure, thats a individual. but you would be rather naive if you thought there wasnt anyone in the world good in their particular field of work without being surrounded by superstars.
i'm talking about becoming the world #1. the first thing any coach is going to recommend is constant competition against the best. The only way to get that with proper latency and with some socializing is to head to Seoul. The only way to assimilate is to learn Korean.
If there ever is again a non-Korean world #1 Starcraft player it'll be the next guy who learns Korean, assimilates into the Korean pro gaming subculture and hangs out constantly with other guys ranked between #2 and #100 in the world.
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote: please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners
So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events?
Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft
there's the very structured team house training regime I would assume and also they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer, probably more of those in Seoul alone than the entire rest of the world
like if you throw in 10 000 koreans and 5 foreigners, odds are the #1 is going to be korean
So Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world? Thats fucking hilarious. And how do you know that every dominant korean had the insane korean teamhouse practice? That wasnt the case, especially in the beginning of SC2, when alot of koreans didnt wanted that kind of treatment anymore. And most of the dominant 2015 koreans didnt live in korea for a long time. What happend there?
Seoul bigger than the rest of the world??? What are you on about?
They really should have one or two mixed WCS events during the year before Blizzcon. I enjoy seeing foreigners only sometimes but throwing a mixed-region event in there would be cool.
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead.
in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
sure, thats a individual. but you would be rather naive if you thought there wasnt anyone in the world good in their particular field of work without being surrounded by superstars.
i'm talking about becoming the world #1. the first thing any coach is going to recommend is constant competition against the best. The only way to get that with proper latency and with some socializing is to head to Seoul. The only way to assimilate is to learn Korean.
If there ever is again a non-Korean world #1 Starcraft player it'll be the next guy who learns Korean, assimilates into the Korean pro gaming subculture and hangs out constantly with other guys ranked between #2 and #100 in the world.
well #1 is not what you initially said, you said 'a great software engineer', and thats what i replied to.
I think one of the biggest problems in the past for foreigners were of course the skill but for must a mind problem. They gave kinda up befor the games started befor the game so they couldnt win . The one who could win had the right mindset and just played vs koreans like everyone else like snute who has a really good record vs top korean protoss
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people
The best Foreigner for a year when foreigner in general arent considered good. Cool. By the way, what history? The theoretical best? Foreigner? She had her only big achievements during the red bull things. And that was Years after the GSTL thing
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people
The best Foreigner for a year when foreigner in general arent considered good. Cool
okay man now you're just being a dick, hit the showers plz
I'm staying out of this. People should know what I think by now and I have no desire to be temp banned....again. I'll simply say I disagree with everything uThermal had to say and leave it at that
On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote: As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people
The best Foreigner for a year when foreigner in general arent considered good. Cool
okay man now you're just being a dick, hit the showers plz
Let me quote you again:
there's the very structured team house training regime I would assume and also they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer, probably more of those in Seoul alone than the entire rest of the world
Still funny that you think that Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world. Obviously there arent enough foreigner who tried to be progamer. Oh wait, they tried. They just couldnt make it
wow you still think I said Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world, reading comprehension 101??
not to mention some foreigners made it and then moved on to other things, snute has made 250k I think from SC2, isn't that what you'd consider making it?
I hope they're right about getting better and do hold their own at blizzcon, at least better than a lot of people are predicting. Would be more interesting that way.
On August 27 2016 10:01 ROOTFayth wrote: wow you still think I said Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world, reading comprehension 101??
not to mention some foreigners made it and then moved on to other things, snute has made 250k I think from SC2, isn't that what you'd consider making it?
Funny that you consider Snute as a progamer who couldnt make it. Somewhat cheap, but hey
On August 27 2016 10:04 Shellshock wrote: I hope they're right about getting better and do hold their own at blizzcon, at least better than a lot of people are predicting. Would be more interesting that way.
the best processes will always produce the best players. part of what makes a player the best in any activity is their ability to identify the best processes and execute on them.
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro.
It's all bullshit, his not dumb, he knows that without Koreans , it's way easier to get money.
Easier path > better results > more money.
No foreign wants to really become better then a code s players, they know it's impossible.
Also I really dislike bullshit, I know his a Terran player and his used to this kind of behaviour but damn so much bullshit in his words.
why is it impossible, are you racist or something
Genetically, foreigner is very possible at excelling at SC2.
But realistically for foreigners to be good at SC2, they don't have the infrastructure as Korea.
So they have to make the decision to move to Korea.
Then they need to talk to Koreans to get their strat which means they need to learn Korean.
And at this stage, SC2 is not doing well.
People just won't invest their time and thus it is pretty much not possible.
agreed with everything you said, but theoretically it's still possible if someone would actually move to korea, learn korean and not give a fuck about playing a dead game
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: agreed with everything you said, but theoretically it's still possible if someone would actually move to korea, learn korean and not give a fuck about playing a dead game
Yes in theory but realistically, that would be an act of insanity.
On August 27 2016 10:57 calh wrote: Foreigners might really be improving, but it appears to me the Korean scene is in decline for some time already. Is this tradeoff worth it?
On the other hand it could make Blizzcon more competitive...
Both Korean scene and foreign scene are declining.
And foreign scene is declining at faster rate than the Korean scene.
If I am someone who wants to be competitive in esport, SC2 is not the game that I would invest my time in.
At this point, SC2 competitive scene probably won't be dead but it will be more played at a part-time level.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead.
in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
I don't get how we're looking at the same example and drawing opposite conclusions.
The way I see it, mid-low tier traditional sports leagues around the world have created an environment where local talent can be nurtured, often with the use of protective regulations. That system allows exceptional talent to be trained and scouted, and sometimes make their way into the top tier leagues of the world.
On August 27 2016 10:57 calh wrote: Foreigners might really be improving, but it appears to me the Korean scene is in decline for some time already. Is this tradeoff worth it?
On the other hand it could make Blizzcon more competitive...
Depends on the draws the 4/5 foreigners get really. Nerchio probably can beat 1-2 of the Kespa koreans. Neeb might if he doesn't choke up again and Snute is Snute. I don't see Showtime or Elazer if he makes it beating anyone on the Korean side though.
On August 27 2016 11:13 royalroadweed wrote: I intensely dislike the foreigner mentality of "I can never be as good or better than Korean players". Its so self defeating.
Genetically, foreigner is very possible at excelling at SC2.
But realistically for foreigners to be good at SC2, they don't have the infrastructure as Korea.
So they have to make the decision to move to Korea.
Then they need to talk to Koreans to get their strat which means they need to learn Korean.
And at this stage, SC2 is not doing well.
People just won't invest their time and thus it is pretty much not possible.
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote: enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead.
in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
I don't get how we're looking at the same example and drawing opposite conclusions.
The way I see it, mid-low tier traditional sports leagues around the world have created an environment where local talent can be nurtured, often with the use of protective regulations. That system allows exceptional talent to be trained and scouted, and sometimes make their way into the top tier leagues of the world.
You're comparing AA leagues and collegiate athletics with WCS are you joking me?
Heroes of the Dorm and Collegiate Starleague, are good examples of where regionlocking for the sake of promoting growth in local scenes makes sense.
Having half of the Blizzcon participants come from regionlocked WCS events is not the same thing. You're locking the highest level of competition in the HOPE that it might create some trickle down growth to the local scenes.
Completely different approaches, I don't see how you can possibly buy your own argument.
One of the problems with the current WCS is the lack of Korea+Foreigner tournaments. Even if they keep the region lock, there should be at least a few more of these joint tournaments, including one mini-Blizzcon tournament that combines all regions at the middle of the year.
On August 27 2016 06:11 Soularion wrote: My ideal system would be something more similar to 2013/2014; whatever korean wants to attend WCS just has to move to somewhere other than KR and provide proof of residence. No VISA requirement. But, you make it so they also need residence in order to attend Dreamhacks, or IEMs, or any foreign tournament like that. That way, we get more koreans, but those koreans will have to be part of the foreign ecosystem (say, for ladder) and will actively grow the scene instead of stealing from it. I think that's perfect - or at least close to perfect - for everyone involved.
So long as there are 6 starleagues + kespa cups, yea that's fair. When EU had those quality koreans, we probably started to see the best the non-koreans had to offer. We should go back to such times.
While I can understand that some foreign players now feel there is a reason to attend Dreamhack etc., I lost my reason to watch those same tournaments.
I can only speak for myself, but finding only Korean tournaments worth watching, instead of so many more before, has definitely hurt my interest in the game.
On August 27 2016 12:09 imre wrote: Looking at viewership figures might be another interesting indicator of this year's system "success".
I'm still waiting on the promised global event but I will avoid to hold my breath.
It depends on what you're marking it against. If you're marking it against the Dreamhacks or IEMs they're mostly stagnant or slightly up or down from tournament to tournament
If you're marking the circuit championships against the thing it replaced, the WCS 2015 season finals. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down.
I believe the pros if they all say they've gotten better (especially with offline).
And I think it's really cool that the top players in NA/EU are making decent livings. I think the NA/EU system is solid and should stay the same. But in Korea, if they added more money and tournaments there, that would be nice. But we're asking for charity to get more money at this point.
On August 27 2016 12:35 Doodsmack wrote: I believe the pros if they all say they've gotten better (especially with offline).
And I think it's really cool that the top players in NA/EU are making decent livings. I think the NA/EU system is solid and should stay the same. But in Korea, if they added more money and tournaments there, that would be nice. But we're asking for charity to get more money at this point.
I definitely agree with this. I think ultimately what people want is for foreigners to be able to compete at the same level as Koreans, that way the quality is very high no matter what tournament you're watching. However, they don't want the Koreans to suffer (as they have this year) so that people who might not do very well against them at Blizzcon get way more money.
On the other hand, there needs to be motivation for foreigners to compete in SC2 as a sustainable living in lieu of not having the same structure or system that Koreans grow up in. It's like hockey in Canada versus say hockey say in Japan. Canada has a system in place that allows for talented players to compete at the highest level.
So in order for foreigners to raise their level, I think having a very few amount of Koreans to play with is a good idea since they do not have to face as many Koreans. I honestly think that this system has worked to a certain degree, with Polt and Hydra no longer being invincible. Remember at the beginning of the year, people thought that Hydra and Polt (the only remaining strong Koreans) would dominate, and they never really did dominate. And really, in the Leifeng in and Olimoleague tourneys, we have seen Koreans dominate, but we have also seen Code S level Koreans, like Keen, alive, and others being taken out by foreigners all the time.
So hopefully, Blizzard does give the Korean scene more money next year but also keeps some of this WCS system this year, as I think it has given the foreign scene some much-needed money.
On August 27 2016 12:09 imre wrote: Looking at viewership figures might be another interesting indicator of this year's system "success".
I'm still waiting on the promised global event but I will avoid to hold my breath.
It depends on what you're marking it against. If you're marking it against the Dreamhacks or IEMs they're mostly stagnant or slightly up or down from tournament to tournament
If you're marking the circuit championships against the thing it replaced, the WCS 2015 season finals. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down.
If you're comparing regular DH events this year to ones last year, viewership is up as a whole. DH events and IEM events were at an all time low. The main thing SC2 fans watched was WCS Premier which was way up compared to other events. The Korean filled weekenders were down significantly compared to the foreign filled seasons. I think that's the main thing to take away from last year.
I'm sure Rangers and Celtic will rip apart Champions League anytime soon due to all their 'extra motivation' and 'extra hours' put in to dominate the Scottish League.
I'm sure racial quotas will 'motivate' minorities to try harder in breaking the glass ceiling, everywhere in the world.
(Yes, I'm being sarcastic. I'm not saying that people given a leg up can't punch above their weight. I'm just seriously questioning the idea of how 'affirmative action' can 'motivate' people to try harder instead of being complacent, when historical data in other places have shown otherwise. As a minority myself, I believe that people are most motivated - and consequently more successful - when their backs are pushed against the wall, when they're fighting against stacked odds, and so on.)
Look at the Koreans in football and sports in general. Decades ago, they were terrible (except maybe in martial arts lol). But we now see a marked improvement of quality in football, badminton, golf, hockey, etc. Getting smacked by other teams and players at the international levels in the early years didn't demotivate them from trying harder. I'm sure defeat only made them faster, better and stronger.
(Of course, such sports have proper domestic infrastructure and incentives - one could argue they have a protected WCS system in place. But for all sports, international and regional glory is the ultimate goal - and that is what that keeps them going, and not simply being top footballer/golfer in Korea. The old WCS system got the balance right already - WCS is the 'domestic league', DHs and IEMs are the seasonal regional and international tourneys to test your mettle against the best.)
On August 27 2016 14:13 RKC wrote: Look at the Koreans in football and sports in general. Decades ago, they were terrible (except maybe in martial arts lol). But we now see a marked improvement of quality in football, badminton, golf, hockey, etc. Getting smacked by other teams and players at the international levels in the early years didn't demotivate them from trying harder. I'm sure defeat only made them faster, better and stronger.
(Of course, such sports have proper domestic infrastructure and incentives - one could argue they have a protected WCS system in place. But for all sports, international and regional glory is the ultimate goal - and that is what that keeps them going, and not simply being top footballer/golfer in Korea. The old WCS system got the balance right already - WCS is the 'domestic league', DHs and IEMs are the seasonal regional and international tourneys to test your mettle against the best.)
Well in conventional sports even if you do poorly you still get a decent amount of money from salary and endorsements. That level of economic insurance doesn't exist in eSports yet, so we need some sort of external money to keep people in the game.
On August 27 2016 14:13 RKC wrote: Look at the Koreans in football and sports in general. Decades ago, they were terrible (except maybe in martial arts lol). But we now see a marked improvement of quality in football, badminton, golf, hockey, etc. Getting smacked by other teams and players at the international levels in the early years didn't demotivate them from trying harder. I'm sure defeat only made them faster, better and stronger.
(Of course, such sports have proper domestic infrastructure and incentives - one could argue they have a protected WCS system in place. But for all sports, international and regional glory is the ultimate goal - and that is what that keeps them going, and not simply being top footballer/golfer in Korea. The old WCS system got the balance right already - WCS is the 'domestic league', DHs and IEMs are the seasonal regional and international tourneys to test your mettle against the best.)
Keep in mind that improvement increases with more experienced coaches (often from other nations) and with more money. The foreign scene really had neither.
Besides, the example is more apt if South Korea had a curling team (does it?) and it let Canadian teams come at the regional and national competitions. If we should let Koreans play in the international tournaments....then they should be playing at the Dreamhack finals or the IEM world championships. In 2015 and before, the host country of the iem/dreamhack often had a lot of local entries, thus making it more of a regional or national tournament rather than international.
So I agree that there should be tournaments that allow for all Koreans and Foreigners, but that those tournaments should also come with more funding for foreigners and more tournaments. (As they have done this past year).
On August 27 2016 13:11 FrkFrJss wrote: Remember at the beginning of the year, people thought that Hydra and Polt (the only remaining strong Koreans) would dominate, and they never really did dominate. And really, in the Leifeng in and Olimoleague tourneys, we have seen Koreans dominate, but we have also seen Code S level Koreans, like Keen, alive, and others being taken out by foreigners all the time.
And I think this shows the foreigners have improved.
This was a system implemented to keep the foreign scene from dying out completely, I don't think Uthermal or Nerchio would disagree that WCS is like the Minor Leagues of Starcraft while PL and GSL are the Majors.
On August 27 2016 14:23 Thouhastmail wrote: Still I cannot understand that 'circuit' system; is it a series of invitational tournaments?
What non-Korean scene ('foreigner' sounds ridiculous tbh) needs is a solid league, I suppose.
Yes, the solution to motivate and improve non-Koreans is to have more 'domestic' leagues - which is what the old WCS did (maybe the only tweak it needed was to have stricter region lock rules). Leave the IEMs and DHs alone - those are the 'internationals' that every player from any county should be eligible to enter.
The main reason why non-Koreans have caught up with 'Koreans' like Polt and Hydra is due to LoTV resetting the game close to zero (see how the likes of soO and Inno are still struggling), and the decline of such foreign-based Koreans over time (due to lack of team-house environment). That foreigners are winning more tourneys now should not be attributed to the current WCS system, I feel.
As for the motivational factor, I suppose it differs from individual to individual. What bugs me is the 'entitlement' vibe coming from some of the pros. Let's put things into perspective - you're in Europe, not some third world country. You have plenty of options - go to college, pick another sport, etc. No one forced you into a competitive e-sports at its infancy like SC2. You know making money is a long shot, and it's hard to compete with the more well-endowed Koreans with a richer culture in the game. Yes, the odds are stacked against you from the start. Can't deal with it? Do something else. Sheesh.
(Sorry if my comments come across as offensive and insulting to the pros. But I just have to let it out. Like I said, I'm an underprivileged minority, where I come from. And I feel strongly when 'people of privilege' complain about inequalities and inequities, yada yada. I don't know the pros or anyone in this forum well enough to be sure that you're a 'person of privilege', of course. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but just at the 'mindset' that some of the pros seem to have which I find disappointing.)
You know. Regardless of if region lock is right or wrong. I think it definitely seems to have improved the level of foreign players. I rember watching the most recent shoutcarft Kings. In that tournament Nerchio beta Dear and Gumiho back to back and Stephano beat Hero. I think that with better chances of winning and more money on the line the foreign. Scene has been pushed to get better as uthermal said.
On August 27 2016 14:23 Thouhastmail wrote: Still I cannot understand that 'circuit' system; is it a series of invitational tournaments?
What non-Korean scene ('foreigner' sounds ridiculous tbh) needs is a solid league, I suppose.
It's a series of tournaments, but, with a few exceptions, there are no invites. Everyone must play open brackets or qualify in one of two events for each region.
I wish we still had WCS Premier. It was the best part of last year and easily the most popular league in SC2 in 2015.
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: not give a fuck about playing a dead game
Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this.
So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/
Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude.
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: not give a fuck about playing a dead game
Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this.
So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/
Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude.
Sigh. Yet another evidence of 'entitlement'. I'm honestly disappointed by the amount of shit posting that foreigner pros get away on TL. Results or no results, there is no excuse of being a dick. Only Snute and Scarlett (off the top of my head) seem to engage constructively, discussing the game whilst throwing in the occasional humour.
Maybe they're just putting on a badass persona on purpose, following the footsteps of Stephano and Naniwa. That may have worked in the past. But sorry, that's not the way of a true sporting professional. Look at football and tennis, look at Messi and Federer. Yes, there is the occasional bad boy getting results and making big money, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Especially in the age of sponsorship and endorsement, there is even a greater need for sportsmen to polish their professionalism, commercially speaking. Look at the meltdown of Lochte at the Olympics right now. Look at Nick Krygios' talent going down the drain with his bad behaviour and 'motivational issues'.
It's a shame that Korean pros get slammed and ridiculed for being 'emotionless robots'. It's called professionalism. It's called respect. It's called sportsmanship.
Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
from a perspective of a guy who played a lot of and tried to be competitive i can understand uthermals points - at least i think i know where he is coming from.
from a perspective of a guy who wants to watch good games uthermals points are not good. as always - at least 2 sides of a coin etc
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
Clearly the solution to this is to ban this one most developed country from competing with others. What a brilliant idea. Why not implement justice even further? Let's look into korean team houses, compare the conditions they offer. Obviously Prime (where Gerrard used to sell players' PCs or whatever) couldn't compete with SKT, the most wealthy team there ever was, they couldn't afford the same quality coaches, practice environment and bla bla bla. Should've banned SKT from Proleague as well. How far shall we go? I don't have a slightest respect for Idra as a person, but as a player he didn't just bitch around, he simply went to South Korea and squeezed himself in a top tier team.
Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote: Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things.
Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it.
How good are the Koreans?... Is it genetics?? Is it luck? F*CK NO!! Its perseverance and practice!! Not to forget continuously playing with the best players there are... This WCS system has ripped the foreigners for a chance to play and grow with the best.
I'm interested in an interview with a non-champion. We know that champions get money but what about the "tier 2" progamers who don't win the tournaments?
So he says that before the norm was to get knocked out in Ro32 unless you get a lucky bracket but now foreigners are getting sponsorships. Continues on to later say that tournaments feel the same as years before and are not easier. Hmm... Is your ego too big to not admit it is different now even though you pretty much said it yourself, uThermal? :S
I definitely agree with uthermal points. For me the situation can be described as follows: if koreans medium skill is 100 and foreigners one is 70 it is clear that foreigners have no chance to win a tournament in which there are koreans partecipants, probably in overwhelming numbers (that was the situation last year). This lead to lack of motivation and less practice, because if you cannot win, nor get good placements, you are less willing to practice. If you are fielded against players of your skill level to get big money you will instead practice harder to become better. So i think the only way to permit to the foreigners to catch up is a system like the one of this year. Furthermore there could be 2-3 mixed (korean-foreigners) events to provide more opportunity for money to koreans
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: not give a fuck about playing a dead game
Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this.
So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/
Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude.
Sigh. Yet another evidence of 'entitlement'. I'm honestly disappointed by the amount of shit posting that foreigner pros get away on TL. Results or no results, there is no excuse of being a dick. Only Snute and Scarlett (off the top of my head) seem to engage constructively, discussing the game whilst throwing in the occasional humour.
Maybe they're just putting on a badass persona on purpose, following the footsteps of Stephano and Naniwa. That may have worked in the past. But sorry, that's not the way of a true sporting professional. Look at football and tennis, look at Messi and Federer. Yes, there is the occasional bad boy getting results and making big money, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Especially in the age of sponsorship and endorsement, there is even a greater need for sportsmen to polish their professionalism, commercially speaking. Look at the meltdown of Lochte at the Olympics right now. Look at Nick Krygios' talent going down the drain with his bad behaviour and 'motivational issues'.
It's a shame that Korean pros get slammed and ridiculed for being 'emotionless robots'. It's called professionalism. It's called respect. It's called sportsmanship.
There's a pretty good example of uThermal engaging constructively at the start of the thread
Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
Have you ever watched olympic games? Every country can have limited number of representatives. Sometimes the number limits to one. The country can have three best sportmen in world, but only one will compete. If you like football - you can probably know, that the number of smaller countries have rule that from eleven people on the field - at least four or five have to represent their own country.
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote:
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
Who should pay for that? Can you even imagine how much money does it cost? How do you plan to return money?
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote:
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
Did Iceland players train by theirself, selected strategy, made substitutes? No, they were leaded by very powerfull specialist from Sweden with a lot of experience. Are Iceland players amateurs? No, they are pros, just less qualified, payed less, play in not-so-known-teams. So why do you compare uncomparable things?
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
I am pleased to see, there are still enough people passionate about the unjust ban of Koreans from all international tournaments.
I only hope, Blizzard is a solid, professional company, where somebody has to be responsible for every failure. And having ZERO Global Events since the announcement of the new system till the next BlizzCon cannot be considered as anything else but a failure. Sorry Kim Phan.
Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
Have you ever watched olympic games? Every country can have limited number of representatives. Sometimes the number limits to one. The country can have three best sportmen in world, but only one will compete. If you like football - you can probably know, that the number of smaller countries have rule that from eleven people on the field - at least four or five have to represent their own country.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
Who should pay for that? Can you even imagine how much money does it cost? How do you plan to return money?
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
Did Iceland players train by theirself, selected strategy, made substitutes? No, they were leaded by very powerfull specialist from Sweden with a lot of experience. Are Iceland players amateurs? No, they are pros, just less qualified, payed less, play in not-so-known-teams. So why do you compare uncomparable things?
How did Korean BW and SC2 players reached to such high levels? Through an infrastructure built over many years, through their own sweat, blood and money.
How did Iceland beat England in Euros? Through an infrastructure built over many years - through their own sweat, blood and money.
No one is denying that foreigners have an uphill battle to catch up with SC2 Koreans, due to the lack of infrastructure. But if you want to reach to the peak, then start climbing yourself, and not pull down the mountain to your level or expect Blizzard to give you a helicopter and drop you off the peak.
Don't want to make the long climb? Then find another easier mountain to scale, or a mountain which no one else has a head start. There are so many mountains out there to choose from. It's not like you were born and forced to play SC2, and nothing else. It's not like you're lacking better options. You can't expect every option in life to be easy and accessible. As a child, I wanted to be an astronaut, but where I come from there is little infrastructure that allows me to study and pursue it as a career. So I pursued something else. Life is unfair. Deal with it. Sheesh.
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote: Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things.
Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it.
Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top.
Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to.
Listening to some parts of the foreign community is basically like an overambitious mother yelling at a child because it dared to some sweets after lunch because it has not "earned" it by doing homework first and cleaning the house.
Personally, I am glad that more foreign progamers now get the money to not worry about the next rent but instead focus on their practice. I believe that your life needs to be sorted and balanced to perform well. Otherwise you just burn out really fast or run into a slump. And that can be, to some extend, the difference between korean infrastructure and the foreigner world.
Yes, you need to put in effort and dedication and "passion" and you need to practice a lot (that is what you are getting paid for) but somehow some way people expect all progamers to be machines which are different just in how much they want to produce per day which is quite horrible. I seriously question the judgement of some people here and especially the way they do their work.
Take a mirror, look at yourself and then judge about guys who are just coming out of their teens. They don't have a boss that tells them to come to office every morning or something, they need the motivation and dedication to get up and follow their dreams which most people in this thread are not capable of even if someone would give them a detailed list with the steps to take. The world is a terrible place with guys like you hanging around.
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote: Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things.
Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it.
Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top.
Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to.
You really can't compare how a player growths in a KeSPA team to somebody from the west.
Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything....
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote: Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things.
Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it.
Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top.
Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to.
By that same coin, I don't think they put Zest on a kiddy table with a stool and no keyboard and expected him to beat Flash either.
You are certainly correct that people with the correct mindset (and perhaps financial backing) can and do overcome odds that are against them. However, everyone who started from the bottom faced those who were on the bottom. No one faced the top people immediately and expected to win. You need to face people of your own skill level first and then work up to the top people.
And yes, you can go to Korea, but IdrA had a team backing him financially to go there in the first place. Most if not all of the Koreans who came to NA or EU had either success or financial backing. (Not to mention they were better than most of the people in their respective region). But when they came over, they took a large amount of the prize pool in the tournaments.
People wonder why the beginning of WoL was so large in the foreign scene, but it's because they were largely foreign tournaments with very few Koreans. The early MLGs had practically no Koreans in them. Thus, foreigners were able to win financial backing and could then afford to train in Korea and become some of the best (like, IdrA, HuK, Jinro) even among Koreans.
EDIT:
On August 27 2016 19:00 gab12 wrote: Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything....
Yeah, they definitely need to bring back three seasons of SSL, GSL, and Kespa cup (and the cross finals aren't bad either).
I would say that having four tournaments basically dedicated to your country along with proleague is not terrible for an established Korean progamer. Yes, it's hard to break into these tournaments, but it is also difficult for less established foreign progamers to break into WCS let alone do well.
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote: Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things.
Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it.
Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top.
Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to.
By that same coin, I don't think they put Zest on a kiddy table with a stool and no keyboard and expected him to beat Flash either.
You are certainly correct that people with the correct mindset (and perhaps financial backing) can and do overcome odds that are against them. However, everyone who started from the bottom faced those who were on the bottom. No one faced the top people immediately and expected to win. You need to face people of your own skill level first and then work up to the top people.
And yes, you can go to Korea, but IdrA had a team backing him financially to go there in the first place. Most if not all of the Koreans who came to NA or EU had either success or financial backing. (Not to mention they were better than most of the people in their respective region). But when they came over, they took a large amount of the prize pool in the tournaments.
People wonder why the beginning of WoL was so large in the foreign scene, but it's because they were largely foreign tournaments with very few Koreans. The early MLGs had practically no Koreans in them. Thus, foreigners were able to win financial backing and could then afford to train in Korea and become some of the best (like, IdrA, HuK, Jinro) even among Koreans.
On August 27 2016 19:00 gab12 wrote: Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything....
Yeah, they definitely need to bring back three seasons of SSL, GSL, and Kespa cup (and the cross finals aren't bad either).
I would say that having four tournaments basically dedicated to your country along with proleague is not terrible for an established Korean progamer. Yes, it's hard to break into these tournaments, but it is also difficult for less established foreign progamers to break into WCS let alone do well.
Okay, I hate to bring this up, but here goes...
Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived.
Why did the foreigners, and also the early Korean ESL pros, stopped winning from HoTS onwards? Because the KeSPA elephants had finally arrived.
The invasion was not immediate. They took time to adapt to the new game. But eventually, their years of BW training and team-house infrastructure advantage kicked in, and they started kicking ass. Even the ESL Koreans had to leave Korea for WCS to be able to win tourneys and earn money.
What is the relevance of this? The relevance is that the current crop of Korean SC2 players were groomed under an infrastructure built over a decade - incrementally and organically. It wasn't built in a day, nor even a year. It wasn't built by helicopter money, nor subsidies.
Right now, Bliz is trying to speed-build an infrastructure with helicopter money. I don't think it will work - not so fast, not this way.
But you know what? I do think that foreigners will end up on par with the Koreans soon. No, not by them rising to the Korean's level. But by the Koreans dwindling as a force, and falling to their level.
On August 27 2016 18:38 Liox wrote: Listening to some parts of the foreign community is basically like an overambitious mother yelling at a child because it dared to some sweets after lunch because it has not "earned" it by doing homework first and cleaning the house.
Personally, I am glad that more foreign progamers now get the money to not worry about the next rent but instead focus on their practice. I believe that your life needs to be sorted and balanced to perform well. Otherwise you just burn out really fast or run into a slump. And that can be, to some extend, the difference between korean infrastructure and the foreigner world.
Yes, you need to put in effort and dedication and "passion" and you need to practice a lot (that is what you are getting paid for) but somehow some way people expect all progamers to be machines which are different just in how much they want to produce per day which is quite horrible. I seriously question the judgement of some people here and especially the way they do their work.
Take a mirror, look at yourself and then judge about guys who are just coming out of their teens. They don't have a boss that tells them to come to office every morning or something, they need the motivation and dedication to get up and follow their dreams which most people in this thread are not capable of even if someone would give them a detailed list with the steps to take. The world is a terrible place with guys like you hanging around.
i dont know who spoon fed you till your 20's but not everyone grew up with the same experiences, difficulties and ambitions.
A lot of people here are saying that basically there are't foreigners able to match code s players and that foreigner prefer to get and to not get better. Well, online result are not saying this at all, this year foreigners have beaten code s winners in online cups and constistently other top koreans as well. Now someone will say that online results don't count, but in reality is much easier online to show the cap of your real skill, skill that if you get used to play under pressure you will bring to lan tournaments. For those who say that ping in Na is bad and all that i'll say that foregners are beating top koreans even on korean ladder when they where in china or from na. People can't play 10 hours a day just cause they have fun playing the game, if you play only for fun you cannot invest such amount of time in the game. Now non korean player have a reason to invest the time koreans always invested in the game, so the level gap is closing.
It's interesting how that uThermal (who was pretty much a nobody) is now throwing around statements like the one in the header for this article. Looking forward to seeing if he can put his money where his mouth is come blizzcon.
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived.
Not really. Foreigners early did better in 2010-early 2011. From that on, there was a significant skill difference between koreans and foreigners.
Also that's pretty much how every iteration of SC2 has gone. Foreigners have done well at the beginning. Game gets 'figured out'. Foreigners are irrelevant
There are many good foreign players, who have never celebrated the new WCS system and whenever they make a statement, they stress, how they are missing the opportunity to play against the real Koreans in international tournaments. E.g. Snute, Harstem ... These players deserve lots of respect.
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
On August 27 2016 09:19 ROOTFayth wrote: Well I'm in the part of Canada that has french as its language, so like you I learned a 2nd language that allows me to communicate with most people who also learn english as a 2nd language, no need to get upset buddy, take a deep breath.
and yes if you want to compete internationally but are not willing to learn to communicate internationally you are a generic fuck, there are several koreans who actually made effort to speak english in interviews and it made me want to root for them a LOT more than those who used a translator
Man I dont know how to say it, here in France we would say "you are digging deeper and deeper at every answer you post in this thread". Meaning at every response you make its getting worse...
Otherwise globally agree with Incognito. In a competitive environnement I dont get why pure skill is not the only criteria to judge people. I dont get at all this "generic koerean" thing, or your "you must learn the universal langage" UNIVERSAL, LOL.
On August 27 2016 20:13 Diabolique wrote: There are many good foreign players, who have never celebrated the new WCS system and whenever they make a statement, they stress, how they are missing the opportunity to play against the real Koreans in international tournaments. E.g. Snute, Harstem ... These players deserve lots of respect.
Then, there are players like Nerchio.
In other words, real competitors vs people chasing pay checks.
Snute will always have my respect. Even in matches he has lost he has looked like someone who REALLY wants it. He's of the same caliber imo as Naniwa, Jinro and Stephano he just hasn't had the results yet. But you know without a shadow of a doubt that someone with his talent and commitment will eventually EARN those results.
Guys like that deserve respect. The people arguing that they deserve money just because.... How the fuck do you defend those people? I mean seriously?
On August 27 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote: Hi first thanks for the interview I write here just to express my point of view, not to reply or start a discussion (and apologies if my point doesn't come across very well, english is not my first language).
The main thing I want to say is to the "foreigner pros" (it's kind of a general category but I have the chance, since I see Nerchio uThermal, Drogo are posting here and maybe others are reading): keep it up, from a viewer perspective, this year of events has been and still is awesome!
I used to watch the main events (DH, IEM, etc.) and usually I had my favorite korean to cheer for (MC since I play toss) but I almost never got to know any foreigner pros, since all of them got eliminated very early (as you say in the interview). The best moments in these tournaments for me were when one of the european / american players could get some good results and you started to see him/her as the foreign-hope (I'm thinking Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett at some point): most of the time the hope was crushed veeeery soon, as even for these stars reaching the RO4 / semifinals was most they could do. This means that I never got to be interested in minor tournaments (here I don't know most of the naming think about all the BaseTradeTV coverage of online cups, minor tournaments, etc.).
Now *for me* this year this has changed quite a lot: - in major tournament I LOVE to see european players (and NA of course) being able to compete for the top spot. I don't care if the level of play is some % lower (if it really is) than 1-2 years ago, for me a tournament where someone like uThermal / Nerchio WINS it's much much more exciting and something I will remember. Why? Because I can relate much more with the players, I can listen to the interview and I see guys (and girls) which come from an environment (Europe for instance) that I know very well. When uThermal says they all sacrificed a lot (studies, time etc.) and they all try super hard and train a lot to become pros, I feel much more close to understand this and to cheer for them, than when I listen to TY/Zest/Dark or any of the Kespa Pros. Really guys keep going and congrats for the results you got so far! You showed AMAZING games and a LOT of people enjoyed watching you play! On this forum there is a very small group of people veeeery vocal about everything in an extremely negative way: I don't know if the rest of the community is close to their position (I can't know), but I do know that a lot of viewers DO enjoy the show you are putting up and the games you are playing.
- during a casual week, I'm much much much more inclined to watch online tournaments or qualification brackets, or whatever ZG and Rifkin are casting, because almost every time I open TL there is some stream going on with the TOP players of this year circuit playing. Today it was Polt vs Raynor or Harstem, an other day it may be Nerchio vs Snute, or Byun (GSL play btw) vs someone else... maybe it's just my perception which is somehow skewed or wrong, but I LOVE that I can get to know these players through these weekly casts, and then I also see them compete for the top spots ad DH or in WCS.
- On the same line, I think it's amazing that in this forum there is some participation of top pro players (foreigner). How awesome is it when Harstem helps you in the Protoss Strategy thread? Or when you read uThermal interview and then he answers you in the same thread :D Do you think it will EVER happen with TY/Zest/KTplayers? No it won't (I think). This (for me) makes the players much more relatable, and again when I then see them in the DH/WCS finals I know I will cheer for them.
I am sorry if these thoughts are a bit disorganized and the main message doesn't come across very well, it was kind of a stream of thoughts from reading the thread
The TL;DR for the foreign pros that may be reading is: awesome job, you made my personal SC2 experience much more enjoyable this year and I'm super happy all the hard work one has to put in to become professional in this game is paying off in terms of money/visibility/results/glory () I can't way for Blizzcon I and do really hope that some of you will make it to the last rounds, why not to the final, to challenge the Koreans!
I guess this sums it up pretty good for me. I am more interested in sc2 than ever. Now i have started to support streams etc cause they show more matches there i cant tell the winner in advance. @uthermal and Nerchio keep up the good work. Maybe Reddit and TL are not the places for foreign sc2 anymore. Although i had put my money on uhtermal to be the next Team Liquid Player.
On August 27 2016 20:13 Diabolique wrote: There are many good foreign players, who have never celebrated the new WCS system and whenever they make a statement, they stress, how they are missing the opportunity to play against the real Koreans in international tournaments. E.g. Snute, Harstem ... These players deserve lots of respect.
Then, there are players like Nerchio.
In other words, real competitors vs people chasing pay checks.
Snute will always have my respect. Even in matches he has lost he has looked like someone who REALLY wants it. He's of the same caliber imo as Naniwa, Jinro and Stephano he just hasn't had the results yet. But you know without a shadow of a doubt that someone with his talent and commitment will eventually EARN those results.
Guys like that deserve respect. The people arguing that they deserve money just because.... How the fuck do you defend those people? I mean seriously?
I am just surprised (and sad) that Snute was achieving better results in the old system ... his IEM group victories against the latest winners of GSL and SSL ... that "striping the onions" ... every SC2 fan will remember this forever. I am not sure, who will remember some WCS2016 Summer finals ...
The more respect deserves Scarlett today, when she does not enjoy and go for the paychecks in all WCS2016 tournaments, but goes to Korea to practice on the ladder and with some other non Kespa Koreans ... Respect, Respect, Respect!!! I just hope, she wins a lot of competitions!
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
Did i say you have to ban all koreans or something like that? I just pointed out, why european players can't be same good as korean ones.
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
It depends on what he will spend his $100000. He can invest into something stupid, have huge debts and make suicide. While the second guy will live his life poor, but happy, cause he never had such money )) My example what about studying and becoming better, not about having money
On August 27 2016 05:47 Heyjoray wrote: Awesome Headline. Evil evil Koreans! They are responsible for all the bad things! Was about time for some bashing! Stardust being on foreigner level was funny. Especially when he won several tournaments. You know, like Foreigners usually do. And how exactly was TRUE accomplishment so much easier?
I think the best thing that could happen for foreigner scenes in any esport is for there to be some infrastructure that supports early scouting of talent (eg via ladder) and then matching up that talent with strong coaches and a basic wage to give them the time to improve.
Look at any competitive sport in the world, most amazing athletes go through massive swaths of time where they don't believe in themselves and have no idea how to improve further because that is super hard to assess objectively for oneself once you're at all good at anything. That's why coaches exist.
Having Korea as the only place where this infrastructure exists is a huge waste of talent. There's no reason that can't be built outside of Korea, it just hasn't happened yet. Getting the money in the right place was step one, I hope step 2 happens soon in SC2 and the other games I like to watch (e.g. most fighting games.)
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
Did i say you have to ban all koreans or something like that? I just pointed out, why european players can't be same good as korean ones.
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
It depends on what he will spend his $100000. He can invest into something stupid, have huge debts and make suicide. While the second guy will live his life poor, but happy, cause he never had such money )) My example what about studying and becoming better, not about having money
yes and the guy who got an experienced coach and teammates of his level could become a serial killer and murder his family. It's obvious that its better to have an advantage in some sort of way than NO advantage, but does that completely mean 'no chances'? - which you claimed
On August 27 2016 16:47 RKC wrote: Non-Korean pros might wish to ask themselves this honestly - if given the chance to train full-time in a Korean team-house, would they be able to cope with it?
- Bad in practice? Wash the dishes. - B-class player? Be a training dummy for S-class players. - Not good enough? No Proleague for you. - Need time to prepare for individual tourneys? Sorry, no can do, your focus is to be a training dummy, team above self - Want to party? Sorry, no can do, stay home and practice.
Is that the best training regime SC2? Maybe not. But it has been proven to work. Restricting top pros from international competitions and distributing more prize money to 'less privileged minorities' over the 'privileged pros'? I haven't seen that model worked, anywhere in sports.
How to improve the foreigner scene? Invest in infrastructure. Set up team houses. Fly over some Korean pros. That sort of thing. Not simply throw prize money and region lock.
How did Iceland beat England in the Euros to reach the quarter-finals? Here's how. It takes time. It takes patience. But how many pros have the time and patience?
It's easy to point fingers and cry about what others have and you don't if you never stop to consider the drawbacks associated with those things.
Old BW fans should remember that Kespa training regimen is so strict and brutal we literally used to compare it to child labour. Is it the best? No, but that's what you're pointing your finger at when you cry. Not everyone can handle it.
Great post RKC, hit the nail on the head.
Thanks. Players like Zest had to slog through years of mediocrity under the shadow of Flash. Even in team-house, everyone starts at the bottom. Did Zest go up to the coach and say "Hey, Flash has so much experience and advantage, let him play blind-folded with the rest of us to decide who becomes ace in Proleague!"? Of course not! Everyone, everywhere, has to fight against stacked odds. No competition ever starts with everyone on a level playing field. That's the nature of competitive sports. Work your way from the bottom, to reach the top.
Someone mentioned about Idra going to Korea to train. That's what foreigners can do to play catch up. But it's a big price to pay that many will not dare to.
By that same coin, I don't think they put Zest on a kiddy table with a stool and no keyboard and expected him to beat Flash either.
You are certainly correct that people with the correct mindset (and perhaps financial backing) can and do overcome odds that are against them. However, everyone who started from the bottom faced those who were on the bottom. No one faced the top people immediately and expected to win. You need to face people of your own skill level first and then work up to the top people.
And yes, you can go to Korea, but IdrA had a team backing him financially to go there in the first place. Most if not all of the Koreans who came to NA or EU had either success or financial backing. (Not to mention they were better than most of the people in their respective region). But when they came over, they took a large amount of the prize pool in the tournaments.
People wonder why the beginning of WoL was so large in the foreign scene, but it's because they were largely foreign tournaments with very few Koreans. The early MLGs had practically no Koreans in them. Thus, foreigners were able to win financial backing and could then afford to train in Korea and become some of the best (like, IdrA, HuK, Jinro) even among Koreans.
EDIT:
On August 27 2016 19:00 gab12 wrote: Well mostly agree on that ... Guys we need 3 seasons of gsl at least next year and ofc where are the promised kespa cups???those events are important in korea cuz now its kinda shit to be in korea progamer in sc2 as there are only 2 tournaments per season to do anything....
Yeah, they definitely need to bring back three seasons of SSL, GSL, and Kespa cup (and the cross finals aren't bad either).
I would say that having four tournaments basically dedicated to your country along with proleague is not terrible for an established Korean progamer. Yes, it's hard to break into these tournaments, but it is also difficult for less established foreign progamers to break into WCS let alone do well.
Okay, I hate to bring this up, but here goes...
Why did foreigners did better in WoL? Because the KeSPA elephants hadn't arrived.
Why did the foreigners, and also the early Korean ESL pros, stopped winning from HoTS onwards? Because the KeSPA elephants had finally arrived.
The invasion was not immediate. They took time to adapt to the new game. But eventually, their years of BW training and team-house infrastructure advantage kicked in, and they started kicking ass. Even the ESL Koreans had to leave Korea for WCS to be able to win tourneys and earn money.
What is the relevance of this? The relevance is that the current crop of Korean SC2 players were groomed under an infrastructure built over a decade - incrementally and organically. It wasn't built in a day, nor even a year. It wasn't built by helicopter money, nor subsidies.
Right now, Bliz is trying to speed-build an infrastructure with helicopter money. I don't think it will work - not so fast, not this way.
But you know what? I do think that foreigners will end up on par with the Koreans soon. No, not by them rising to the Korean's level. But by the Koreans dwindling as a force, and falling to their level.
really brilliant post, if i had money i'd buy TL+ for this. it's not often i see someone address the issue this way rather than just falling one one of the two extremes - "FOREIGNERS CAN'T EVER WIN BECAUSE OF KOREANS!" or "FOREIGNERS ARE TOO LAZY TO GET GOOD!"
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
Did i say you have to ban all koreans or something like that? I just pointed out, why european players can't be same good as korean ones.
On August 27 2016 20:14 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
It depends on what he will spend his $100000. He can invest into something stupid, have huge debts and make suicide. While the second guy will live his life poor, but happy, cause he never had such money )) My example what about studying and becoming better, not about having money
yes and the guy who got an experienced coach and teammates of his level could become a serial killer and murder his family. It's obvious that its better to have an advantage in some sort of way than NO advantage, but does that completely mean 'no chances'? - which you claimed
I get where Uthermal is coming from that single eliminations are just cruel.... but TRUE has gone through that and survived. the logic should work both ways. Plus it made polt look like a master league player so there's that.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
its where champions are made and pretenders are stomped. Non-Koreans just have to accept where the championship calibre starcraft culture is and assimilate.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
or you can just choose to be happy at the level of success you have and not run around pointing fingers in every direction. only 1 person can be #1.
i put every ounce of effort and all of my heart and soul into being #1 in my software engineering program. i finished 7th out of 120 students. i could've pointed fingers at my professors and TAs, pouted, moaned, bitched and whined about how the environment let me down.. blamed my mom for not giving me even $1 towards my tuition or rent or food.. blamed my coke dealer violent dad for being in jail and not providing a better example for me to follow..etc ..etc ...etc. instead, i decided to be happy with #7 and the effort i put into my pursuit of #1.
i suspect a lot of the discontent by foreigners comes from the deep down internal awareness that they are not giving it 100%. its easier to accept defeat when u put ur entire being into something and come up short.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Indeed what it is said in the interview is *not* that foreign progamers didn't belong in the RO32 or they were better than koreans (maybe you just didn't read it). It says that competing in the current WCS system helps the foreign pros improve more than being stuck in the RO32 of DH filled with top koreans. As a consequence *maybe* now foreign pros can put up a better competition with the koreans, since they improved.
But sure it's more "cool" to just say "get better or quit" and being harsh towards people that invested their life in this game. Your "status" has to do with it, because your opinion of how the system is working is less valuable and less important than the opinion of a progamer that is playing in this system. He knows it, he knows how it's working for himself and he is expert at the game.
On August 28 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: I get where Uthermal is coming from that single eliminations are just cruel.... but TRUE has gone through that and survived. the logic should work both ways. Plus it made polt look like a master league player so there's that.
This. Tons of Korean players have lost, and lost, and lost, and then become good players without having their ego stroked by winning minor league tournaments. Why does uThermal apparently think this is impossible for foreigners?
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Indeed what it is said in the interview is *not* that foreign progamers didn't belong in the RO32 or they were better than koreans (maybe you just didn't read it). It says that competing in the current WCS system helps the foreign pros improve more than being stuck in the RO32 of DH filled with top koreans. As a consequence *maybe* now foreign pros can put up a better competition with the koreans, since they improved.
But sure it's more "cool" to just say "get better or quit" and being harsh towards people that invested their life in this game. Your "status" has to do with it, because your opinion of how the system is working is less valuable and less important than the opinion of a progamer that is playing in this system. He knows it, he knows how it's working for himself and he is expert at the game.
Surrrrre they're getting better. It's nothing to do with the fact they're not playing the best players any more and they slowly strangling the one strong area they had. No it's clearly the fact they're getting better despite having to do even less than they did
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Indeed what it is said in the interview is *not* that foreign progamers didn't belong in the RO32 or they were better than koreans (maybe you just didn't read it). It says that competing in the current WCS system helps the foreign pros improve more than being stuck in the RO32 of DH filled with top koreans. As a consequence *maybe* now foreign pros can put up a better competition with the koreans, since they improved.
But sure it's more "cool" to just say "get better or quit" and being harsh towards people that invested their life in this game. Your "status" has to do with it, because your opinion of how the system is working is less valuable and less important than the opinion of a progamer that is playing in this system. He knows it, he knows how it's working for himself and he is expert at the game.
Surrrrre they're getting better. It's nothing to do with the fact they're not playing the best players any more and they slowly strangling the one strong area they had. No it's clearly the fact they're getting better despite having to do even less than they did
Well you are not giving much argumentation.. It's well explained in the interview why he thinks they are getting better, and note that he's not saying: "we won premier tournaments therefore this means we got better"
he's saying "the field is more balanced, thus having a shot at winning pushes you to compete better, therefore we got better"
Anyway who should I listen to about WCS ? Progamer playing in such WCS or random TL user?
On August 28 2016 03:56 VHbb wrote: Anyway who should I listen to about WCS ? Progamer playing in such WCS or random TL user?
Jose Bautista, a baseball player, claims the umpires are all against him. I say "bullshit" to Jose and i say the umpires are fair.
I'm a random TL user and Jose Bautista is a baseball player whose future income depends upon his performance in baseball. who do you believe ? me or Jose?
On August 28 2016 03:56 VHbb wrote: Anyway who should I listen to about WCS ? Progamer playing in such WCS or random TL user?
Jose Bautista, a baseball player, claims the umpires are all against him. I say "bullshit" to Jose and the umpires are fair.
I'm a random TL user and Jose Bautista is a baseball player whose future income rides upon his performance in baseball.
who do you believe ? me or Jose?
I can differentiate between situations
If a single player claims that ALL refs are against him, I agree I would probably also think that he is not right. If multiple foreign pro players have an opinion of the WCS system (and from the interview is not as strong or as "unbalanced" as your example) I'm more inclined to believe them, rather than a SC2 fan (I don't mean to be rude with "random TL user", I'm one as well )
I don't like the reasoning that since your income / career is involved, than your opinion has to be biased. There is a level of control and trust involved, especially when the claims (such as in this interview) are not extreme. No one is saying the foreign pros are better than kespa pro players or something like that..
dozens and maybe hundreds of Blue Jay players and Blue Jays management over the decades tacitly float the "anti Canadian" bias as an excuse as to why they don't win.
does this mean there is some mysterious "anti canadian" bias? nah. they were just never good enough.
they all yap at each in other in a giant canadian echo chamber and some how convince each other they are right and there is an anti-canadian bias.
the way to be a foreign champ is to go to korea and assimilate into the top level starcraft subculture whose language of choice is korean. it is a very, very difficult thing to do.
Yes ok but your example is quite different. Nobody is saying that the SC2 ref (or Blizzard or I don't know) are biased against foreigner and that's why they didn't win. Nobody is "trying to find an excuse"..
edit: anyway it's not an interesting argument If you are convinced uThermal is lying to take advantage of a situation, I won't be the one to convince you of the opposite
it will always be more difficult for a Nigerian to become the best baseball hitter in the world because he'll have to change countries and learn a new culture while training and playing. similarly, it'll always be more difficult for a non-korean to become the best at Starcraft because they'll have to change countries and learn a new culture.
non-Koreans face a tougher road. its just the way it is. accept it and move forward.
On August 27 2016 06:04 DomeGetta wrote: Wow - sorry but can't disagree with this more. To make the argument that lowering the bar for competition makes players better is altruistic delusion. I can understand the point of no Koreans makes for more motivation which can lead to more practice and getting better -but then let's put the blame on the individuals who are actually responsible for you not getting better (you!) not the better players who are knocking you out of tournaments via their hard work and dedication - I can't think of a single example where nerfing competition has actually produced a stronger evolution in any facet of reality. We should just be open and honest about the situation and call the current WCS what it is - the B league - and the salaries and prize pools should scale down with it. It's ridiculous how many pro Kr players who have put in insane hours and work over the last 5 years have been forced into retirement because we've decided to create the WCS welfare program. Sorry for you guys..but since you, just like the rest of the WCS field - can't compete with the best in Korea - you're sol..but for the rest of the world we're going to glorify you and have you make a living off it. Of course what Harstem said pissed all of them off - but at least he had the balls to be honest - and my respect for him has grown tremendously based on that - it's not easy to admit something to the public that has the potential to negatively influence you financially - huge props to him for understanding the difference between wealth and value - that type of mentality will help him for the rest of his life in whatever endeavors he decides to take on.
lol honestly the more I read this I can't help but feel the interviewer was setting him up - like even the headline!? "if you lose to koreans...you can't get bettter...!" I feel like if he re-read that statement even one time he'd have been like... wait a minute.. that sounds absolutely fucking insane.. please don't post that! LOL what planet is this??!
To the person earlier in the thread who said "environment doesn't matter" (re: motivation) - either he's never had a real job, or he's some kind of super genius LOL
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me...
I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015.
Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system.
Who's a faceless Korean? Jesus Christ. Koreans show just as much personality as any other foreigner player. It's just people like you who won't even give them a freaking chance to watch them. Parting, Rogue, herO, MC, Maru, Innovation etc. are ALL the same boring personality to you?
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: not give a fuck about playing a dead game
Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this.
So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/
Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude.
yeah I'm sorry I used the word dead, dying would be more appropriate here, not sure why you are taking this out of context to make me look bad, I say things how they are, if you want to put your head in the sand by all means do it
also I'm not racist, saying things like foreigners can't possibly compete with koreans however is pretty racist
edit: also can someone explain to me how exactly are they banned? WCS montreal had Violet, Polt, True and Hydra.... am I missing something?
On August 27 2016 10:36 ROOTFayth wrote: not give a fuck about playing a dead game
Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this.
So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/
Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude.
yeah I'm sorry I used the word dead, dying would be more appropriate here, not sure why you are taking this out of context to make me look bad, I say things how they are, if you want to put your head in the sand by all means do it
also I'm not racist, saying things like foreigners can't possibly compete with koreans however is pretty racist
edit: also can someone explain to me how exactly are they banned? WCS montreal had Violet, Polt, True and Hydra.... am I missing something?
Koreans cannot participate from their region in the qualifiers. If they obtain visas they can play from other countries, but I believe they also have to reside in the region in which they are qualifying and/or have a passport/visa. So, if they move to EU/NA/SEA etc., they can play in WCS, but it means that no Koreans from their region can compete in the WCS circuit tournaments.
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me...
I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015.
Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system.
Who's a faceless Korean? Jesus Christ. Koreans show just as much personality as any other foreigner player. It's just people like you who won't even give them a freaking chance to watch them. Parting, Rogue, herO, MC, Maru, Innovation etc. are ALL the same boring personality to you?
Although not conveyed the best, it is easier to get a sense of the foreigner stories because they compete in primarily english tournaments that interview players (for the most part) in english. Also, we've just seen a lot more of some of the foreigners through twitter, teamliquid, or the WCS throughout 2014/2015/2016 that we don't really know the Koreans as well.
It is obvious that the Koreans do in fact have personalities, but since they never competed in most of the WCS tournaments and they don't speak the same language, some people (myself included) don't know their stories as well as NA/EU foreigners.
ah so koreans per say are not banned, they just can't qualify from korea, looks like it would be a good option for them to move if it allows them to make more money
I haven't posted in forever and a day, but I had to say my piece. People have to pay their bills. You cannot call someone a professional gamer if they are living below the poverty line. I work my BUTT off to be a professional musician and its the same thing. People who had daddy (Kespa) taking care of their bills simply got better. They could afford their top of the industry coaches and teachers (teams) to feed them into the best networks (practice partners).
At a certain point, people at a certain age can't just play a game for funsies and compete at an international level. I do think the ultimate test of merit is to pull what Stephano did and win out over koreans, but we don't get there if we don't invest in the infrastructure of our e-sports. You want amazing and relevant foreigners? They need to make a freaking living. Competitive spirit does not get you the best coaches, practice partners, food, and housing; money and visibility do.
Talent is a matter of passion and persistence. One cannot persist if one cannot afford to exist. Not to mention, any financial or professional thought and energy spent on things outside the skill you are seeking to develop puts you at an inherent disadvantage. Energy and will power are finite. If a foreigner couldn't make money to sustain a decent existence, they would absolutely seek to divide their time, thought, and energy into future prospects because these are people trying to live their lives and it doesn't take long for them to figure out being super ultra mega broke is not a long term strategy.
Personally I haven't been interested in the Sc2 pro scene since like 2013/14, but I was always frustrated that some of the more ambitious and hardworking foreigners was not nurtured into the Korea scene by the prominent foreign owned teams and for it to be taken more seriously in general. My lasting memory of the Sc2 foreign pro scene lies with team EG running what looked like some type of frat house in the states where some of the higher earning Sc2 players resided smashing amateurs on NA ladder and meanwhile there wasn't any representation in Code S or A from outside Korea.
On August 28 2016 10:15 KrOmander wrote: Personally I haven't been interested in the Sc2 pro scene since like 2013/14, but I was always frustrated that some of the more ambitious and hardworking foreigners was not nurtured into the Korea scene by the prominent foreign owned teams and for it to be taken more seriously in general. My lasting memory of the Sc2 foreign pro scene lies with team EG running what looked like some type of frat house in the states where some of the higher earning Sc2 players resided smashing amateurs on NA ladder and meanwhile there wasn't any representation in Code S or A from outside Korea.
The style of management definitely in Korea was not established in NA/EU during SC2's early years.
But, I also wonder if the Koreans moving into the tournaments contributed to this foreigner deficit. Not that it caused it per se, but from the views of last year, people very much like having their home town heroes win. But around 2012ish, most of the tournaments were won by Koreans. This means that fewer foreigners could win sustainable money and thus there became fewer foreigners to compete.
Less foreigners and a stagnating meta contributed to a smaller viewerbase and player base. Then with diminishing returns, sponsors started pulling out.
This is mostly theoretical, but it is a fact that far more tournaments in 2010-2011 were won by foreigners than in later years, and people need money to continue a profession.
Also, LoL, Dota, and CS became huge and snagged audiences.
On August 28 2016 10:15 KrOmander wrote: Personally I haven't been interested in the Sc2 pro scene since like 2013/14, but I was always frustrated that some of the more ambitious and hardworking foreigners was not nurtured into the Korea scene by the prominent foreign owned teams and for it to be taken more seriously in general. My lasting memory of the Sc2 foreign pro scene lies with team EG running what looked like some type of frat house in the states where some of the higher earning Sc2 players resided smashing amateurs on NA ladder and meanwhile there wasn't any representation in Code S or A from outside Korea.
Again if you have paid attention in BW days, player ret have been deliberated been shut out by Koreans when he was training in Korea.
So to do what you want to happen, foreigners have to learn fluent Korean before training in Korea.
Korean team wouldn't spent their time and money being patient with a foreigner when their management can be focusing on smooth communicating with Korean players and prepare for ProLeague/GSL.
On August 28 2016 04:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: it will always be more difficult for a Nigerian to become the best baseball hitter in the world because he'll have to change countries and learn a new culture while training and playing. similarly, it'll always be more difficult for a non-korean to become the best at Starcraft because they'll have to change countries and learn a new culture.
non-Koreans face a tougher road. its just the way it is. accept it and move forward.
Yeah, life is unfair and unequal for everyone, deal with it.
What makes the whines about unfairness from NA/EU players even more annoying to hear is that they don't realise how privileged they already are. Stable country, social welfare, middle-class families, strong e-sports culture, sponsorship opportunities, etc. What about the Nigerian kid who wanted to be a SC2 pro? The odds are even more stacked against him.
Let's look at other sports - football. This is where Africans and Asians are doing better in recent years. They have a strong domestic league. Some clubs are loaded too. But how do they gain international recognition and get transfer deals to Europe? Either by moving to Europe early on, or hitting the headlines in some international tourney like the World Cup (there was a big influx of Japanese and Korean players to Europe after their countries' strong performances in the World Cup 2012, albeit on home soil). Yes, a player who does well in the national league do occasionally catches a talent scout's eye and gets a transfer - but these are the players who more likely fail to make the transition and return home. The ones who make it big to Europe are those who have shown to be able to cope with the European game(which also includes adopting a new language and culture) or performed in the international stage against strong European or South American opposition.
Is it easier for African and Asian footballers to move to Europe now than Western SC2 players move to Korea? Probably, yes. But it's only because it took decades for this infrastructure to be built. Esports, of course, moves at a faster pace. But that still means a proper infrastructure needs 4-5 years to build. And maybe it's not that the infrastructure couldn't be build since 2010. Maybe it's just that Bliz and sponsors have done all that's necessary to lay the foundation, but the pro players just lacked the right motivation and mindset to grab the chance and grind, grind, grind to success.
I respect players like Snute, Scarlett and HuK. They stuck around, put up good performances, and show good attitude. Even when their form dropped, they didn't whine and just kept practising. These are the players that the EU/NA scene needs. (And how is it that they can keep up the motivation to keep playing, while players like Lilbow who peaked even higher by winning WCS can't? This probably goes to show that people who are motivated by results and money aren't the ones who will stay in the game and support the scene.)
"Life so unfair, Koreans coming over to our tournaments and steal our welfare money!" Yeah, tell that to the Nigerian kid who doesn't have a shot in hell at local tourneys and sponsors.
On August 28 2016 04:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: it will always be more difficult for a Nigerian to become the best baseball hitter in the world because he'll have to change countries and learn a new culture while training and playing. similarly, it'll always be more difficult for a non-korean to become the best at Starcraft because they'll have to change countries and learn a new culture.
non-Koreans face a tougher road. its just the way it is. accept it and move forward.
Yeah, life is unfair and unequal for everyone, deal with it.
What makes the whines about unfairness from NA/EU players even more annoying to hear is that they don't realise how privileged they already are. Stable country, social welfare, middle-class families, strong e-sports culture, sponsorship opportunities, etc. What about the Nigerian kid who wanted to be a SC2 pro? The odds are even more stacked against him.
Let's look at other sports - football. This is where Africans and Asians are doing better in recent years. They have a strong domestic league. Some clubs are loaded too. But how do they gain international recognition and get transfer deals to Europe? Either by moving to Europe early on, or hitting the headlines in some international tourney like the World Cup (there was a big influx of Japanese and Korean players to Europe after their countries' strong performances in the World Cup 2012, albeit on home soil). Yes, a player who does well in the national league do occasionally catches a talent scout's eye and gets a transfer - but these are the players who more likely fail to make the transition and return home. The ones who make it big to Europe are those who have shown to be able to cope with the European game(which also includes adopting a new language and culture) or performed in the international stage against strong European or South American opposition.
Is it easier for African and Asian footballers to move to Europe now than Western SC2 players move to Korea? Probably, yes. But it's only because it took decades for this infrastructure to be built. Esports, of course, moves at a faster pace. But that still means a proper infrastructure needs 4-5 years to build. And maybe it's not that the infrastructure couldn't be build since 2010. Maybe it's just that Bliz and sponsors have done all that's necessary to lay the foundation, but the pro players just lacked the right motivation and mindset to grab the chance and grind, grind, grind to success.
I respect players like Snute, Scarlett and HuK. They stuck around, put up good performances, and show good attitude. Even when their form dropped, they didn't whine and just kept practising. These are the players that the EU/NA scene needs. (And how is it that they can keep up the motivation to keep playing, while players like Lilbow who peaked even higher by winning WCS can't? This probably goes to show that people who are motivated by results and money aren't the ones who will stay in the game and support the scene.)
"Life so unfair, Koreans coming over to our tournaments and steal our welfare money!" Yeah, tell that to the Nigerian kid who doesn't have a shot in hell at local tourneys and sponsors.
Thing is, those players all had stable teams for a long time that allowed them those opportunities, Team Liquid, Acer, and EG are some of the longer standing SC2 teams.
You are saying that foreign pros have been lazy and have not taken advantage of what blizzard and sponsors have done for them, but my question is, by what rubric do you measure that?
Is it success? The best foreigners will perform well even against Koreans? This cannot be true, because even snute and Scarlett, two people you mentioned as motivated players have very few results against Koreans. Of course; Stephano and Naniwa are some of the few players to have achieved this.
If even the best of foreigners, those with excellent attitudes and work ethics, fail to meet the standard of even mid-Koreans (consistently), then what is the problem? Surely their innate talent can't be worse and than all Korean pros.
So if (and it's a big if) the problem is not with the players (I mean like Scarlett and snute), then where is the problem? I think th obvious answer is that NA and away don't have the same infrastructure as Korea because they are spread out over a massively larger area. Korea has an excellent infrastructure because they have dedicated money towards growing players.
Of course, Blizzard is trying to grow the foreign scene very quickly, and one way to attend act new players and old ones is to increase the money in that scene.
On August 28 2016 04:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: it will always be more difficult for a Nigerian to become the best baseball hitter in the world because he'll have to change countries and learn a new culture while training and playing. similarly, it'll always be more difficult for a non-korean to become the best at Starcraft because they'll have to change countries and learn a new culture.
non-Koreans face a tougher road. its just the way it is. accept it and move forward.
Yeah, life is unfair and unequal for everyone, deal with it.
What makes the whines about unfairness from NA/EU players even more annoying to hear is that they don't realise how privileged they already are. Stable country, social welfare, middle-class families, strong e-sports culture, sponsorship opportunities, etc. What about the Nigerian kid who wanted to be a SC2 pro? The odds are even more stacked against him.
Let's look at other sports - football. This is where Africans and Asians are doing better in recent years. They have a strong domestic league. Some clubs are loaded too. But how do they gain international recognition and get transfer deals to Europe? Either by moving to Europe early on, or hitting the headlines in some international tourney like the World Cup (there was a big influx of Japanese and Korean players to Europe after their countries' strong performances in the World Cup 2012, albeit on home soil). Yes, a player who does well in the national league do occasionally catches a talent scout's eye and gets a transfer - but these are the players who more likely fail to make the transition and return home. The ones who make it big to Europe are those who have shown to be able to cope with the European game(which also includes adopting a new language and culture) or performed in the international stage against strong European or South American opposition.
Is it easier for African and Asian footballers to move to Europe now than Western SC2 players move to Korea? Probably, yes. But it's only because it took decades for this infrastructure to be built. Esports, of course, moves at a faster pace. But that still means a proper infrastructure needs 4-5 years to build. And maybe it's not that the infrastructure couldn't be build since 2010. Maybe it's just that Bliz and sponsors have done all that's necessary to lay the foundation, but the pro players just lacked the right motivation and mindset to grab the chance and grind, grind, grind to success.
I respect players like Snute, Scarlett and HuK. They stuck around, put up good performances, and show good attitude. Even when their form dropped, they didn't whine and just kept practising. These are the players that the EU/NA scene needs. (And how is it that they can keep up the motivation to keep playing, while players like Lilbow who peaked even higher by winning WCS can't? This probably goes to show that people who are motivated by results and money aren't the ones who will stay in the game and support the scene.)
"Life so unfair, Koreans coming over to our tournaments and steal our welfare money!" Yeah, tell that to the Nigerian kid who doesn't have a shot in hell at local tourneys and sponsors.
Thing is, those players all had stable teams for a long time that allowed them those opportunities, Team Liquid, Acer, and EG are some of the longer standing SC2 teams.
You are saying that foreign pros have been lazy and have not taken advantage of what blizzard and sponsors have done for them, but my question is, by what rubric do you measure that?
Is it success? The best foreigners will perform well even against Koreans? This cannot be true, because even snute and Scarlett, two people you mentioned as motivated players have very few results against Koreans. Of course; Stephano and Naniwa are some of the few players to have achieved this.
If even the best of foreigners, those with excellent attitudes and work ethics, fail to meet the standard of even mid-Koreans (consistently), then what is the problem? Surely their innate talent can't be worse and than all Korean pros.
So if (and it's a big if) the problem is not with the players (I mean like Scarlett and snute), then where is the problem? I think th obvious answer is that NA and away don't have the same infrastructure as Korea because they are spread out over a massively larger area. Korea has an excellent infrastructure because they have dedicated money towards growing players.
Of course, Blizzard is trying to grow the foreign scene very quickly, and one way to attend act new players and old ones is to increase the money in that scene.
Maybe there is no problem anymore. Maybe the balance has been reached. For whatever reason (motivation, passion, real talents playing other games, etc.), foreigners can't overtake Koreans anytime soon, just as no African and Asian country will win the World Cup anytime soon (their performances has somewhat plateaued in the past decade after a surge in the 90s and early 2000s).
Foreigners have enough opportunities to shine since 2010. So now just let things take its course. Stick to the old WCS Premier system. That's fair to all sides.
Maybe foreigners will never be as good as Koreans in SC2. And we should all accept that, and enjoy the game as it is. Just as I'm happy watching the likes of Spain, Brazil and Germany winning the World Cup, while the occasional African and Asian countries making deep runs in the quarters or semis. I don't need an underdog winning the World Cup to sustain my interest in football. In fact, I'm more annoyed than happy if an underdog upsets a favourite due to some fluke and the favourite derping, rather than the underdog punching above its weight (hence why I didn't particularly enjoy the recent Euros - the overall quality was sub-par).
So why should we have such expectations for SC2? All sports in the world are dominated by a few countries anyway (since SC2 is not widely played across the world, a sole country kicking ass fits the ratio).
On August 27 2016 08:01 Poopi wrote: Shit I dont want Korea sc2 to die, the WoL gaming house videos era was so awesome.
The WoL era was when we still had foreigners who still had the ambition to go train in the country that has the best training facilities: South Korea.
The LOTV era is where foreigners don't want Koreans in their competitions because then they'd have to either adapt their training methods to those used by Koreans, or admit that they cannot compete and retire.
LOTV-era WCS is what would happen if the IOC barred Phelps or Bolt from participating in the olympics because other athletes complained that they never have a chance at winning the gold.
On August 27 2016 08:01 Poopi wrote: Shit I dont want Korea sc2 to die, the WoL gaming house videos era was so awesome.
The WoL era was when we still had foreigners who still had the ambition to go train in the country that has the best training facilities: South Korea.
The LOTV era is where foreigners don't want Koreans in their competitions because then they'd have to either adapt their training methods to those used by Koreans, or admit that they cannot compete and retire.
LOTV-era WCS is what would happen if the IOC barred Phelps or Bolt from participating in the olympics because other athletes complained that they never have a chance at winning the gold.
Just fyi Neeb, Scarlett, NoRegret, Harstem and State have all trained in korea recently, so yo ucan't say none of them have ambition
These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
it's not about anti-foreigner, its about equality. why can literally EVERY region compete in these tournaments except from korea simply because they're better? once again, if you watch starcraft for personalities, go watch a movie or something.
On August 27 2016 08:01 Poopi wrote: Shit I dont want Korea sc2 to die, the WoL gaming house videos era was so awesome.
The WoL era was when we still had foreigners who still had the ambition to go train in the country that has the best training facilities: South Korea.
The LOTV era is where foreigners don't want Koreans in their competitions because then they'd have to either adapt their training methods to those used by Koreans, or admit that they cannot compete and retire.
LOTV-era WCS is what would happen if the IOC barred Phelps or Bolt from participating in the olympics because other athletes complained that they never have a chance at winning the gold.
Just fyi Neeb, Scarlett, NoRegret, Harstem and State have all trained in korea recently, so yo ucan't say none of them have ambition
Hm. I wonder how warm or cold of a reception they're getting from the Korean pros. Reception has not been great in the past, from what I've read. I wonder if it may have even worsened now, due to the new WCS system. I can imagine (worst-case scenario, not saying it's likely) some bitterness along the lines of "you've stolen our money, now you want to steal our skills too?" I hope I'm wrong.
Last DH, Major spoke about keeping in touch with TY or something. Regardless who the beneficiaries and losers are in the new WCS system, I like to think that both Korean and foreigner pros still maintain respect for each other.
I think that people becoming better due to the level of competition being lower (which is basically implied) is a fallacy. I'd be completely fine with WCS staying the way it is if Koreans had WAY more tournaments to play at. The way it is now the best players in the world sit around doing nothing for most of the year.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
also, dont say dumb argument when your entire argument is based of assumption and speculation. sc2 is a decline, yes. but good luck proving its because the koreans didnt say 'oh i am very happy to have won' or do a breakdance after they won the finals.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
also, dont say dumb argument when your entire argument is based of assumption and speculation. sc2 is a decline, yes. but good luck proving its because the koreans didnt say 'oh i am very happy to have won' or do a breakdance after they won the finals.
Faceless Koreans are a myth. Watch some of the Starleague and Proleague pre-shows. They look like they're having fun (even if I don't understand what they're saying). Rogue is funny, Dark has arrogance, the running joke about Byun not showering, etc. It's just that foreign tourneys don't dig deep enough to find these storylines, I feel. They focus on foreigners, because it's easier.
(this post is directed more to dizzy's post, just to be clear)
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
On August 28 2016 17:49 True_Spike wrote: I think that people becoming better due to the level of competition being lower (which is basically implied) is a fallacy. I'd be completely fine with WCS staying the way it is if Koreans had WAY more tournaments to play at. The way it is now the best players in the world sit around doing nothing for most of the year.
While it is true that you can't become better as easily if everyone is worse or if they don't have the potential, I think that if everyone was way better, then you wouldn't improve very much.
Since we've been talking about sports, say for example you are in soccer. Your team is comprised of some of the best people from your city. Your league is an open one, so international teams can enter. Those teams consistently beat you by more than five goals.
If you are on this team, are you motivated? Will you improve?
Koreans and foreigners in the same tournament looks a little similar to this. While the top foreigners can sometimes win, the vast majority of the time, the top Koreans win (and they make it look easy).
There's a reason why we began seeing fewer and fewer foreigners in the Ro8 and Ro16 of WCS America and Europe.
As for the lack of tournaments, yeah it would be nice to see them there, though I would say that the top Koreans really are busy throughout the year with GSL, SSL, and proleague.
Of note,
Koreans can and do participate in: Olimoleague Douyu Cup Corsair Cup Leifeng Cup
So, the big competitions are not out there, but the weekly, bi-weekly, and monthly are out there.
I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
And what someone here mentioned - the fact that WCS is no longer a standalone tournament (and is just added on top of DH, IEMs etc.) is not something I like very much, although I understand why that is the case.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying, that DH and IEM should be open, and that Korea needs more tournaments, made you so angry.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
i dont feel like responding seriously to someone who hasnt even given me his own stance yet on the topic with arguments and then requesting an significant amount of time and thought of my own, you know, just incase of trolls.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL.
Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL.
Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
thats the difference, people can live in america, fly just to korea to compete in GSL without applying for korean citizenship and go home. Thus your argument is invalid.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL.
Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
thats the difference, people can live in america, fly just to korea to compete in GSL without applying for korean citizenship and go home. Thus your argument is invalid.
But back then it was an open online qualifier for WCS, so that was also way easier to take part in than to fly to NA or EU and play offline. Not sure if that many Korean teams could've afforded that trip and would've been willing to send their players. While possible, no foreigner ever just flew to Korea, played the qualfier and flew back, in practice they all committed to living there. Although there was a time when there were seeds for foreigners, which was stupid, but it was what the Koreans wanted and Koreans also got seeds to MLG and stuff in return.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL.
Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
thats the difference, people can live in america, fly just to korea to compete in GSL without applying for korean citizenship and go home. Thus your argument is invalid.
But back then it was an open online qualifier for WCS, so that was also way easier to take part in than to fly to NA or EU and play offline. Not sure if that many Korean teams could've afforded that trip and would've been willing to send their players. While possible, no foreigner ever just flew to Korea, played the qualfier and flew back, in practice they all committed to living there. Although there was a time when there were seeds for foreigners, which was stupid, but it was what the Koreans wanted and Koreans also got seeds to MLG and stuff in return.
whatever happened in the past is the past, now is the present. whether someone can afford it is irrelevant,how difficult it was is also irrelevant, making rules about it is relevant. because rules are facts, difficulty and hardships are subjective.
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
i dont feel like responding seriously to someone who hasnt even given me his own stance yet on the topic with arguments and then requesting an significant amount of time and thought of my own, you know, just incase of trolls.
That's unfortunate. I thought you had read through at least the past few pages of this thread. If you had, you might have seen my opinion posted in my rather lengthy responses. I do believe I was fairly clear in my stance in those posts.
That being said, my view is that I support WCS in its current iteration--though with a few caveats. I think that there should be a few more global tournaments, and I think a third season of GSL/SSL is preferable. Also, I do feel like tournaments should not be obliged to lock against Koreans in order to stay within the WCS system. They should be able to have whoever they want in their tournaments and still be supported by Blizzard.
I feel that in the past foreigners were unable to gain a sufficient amount of money through tournaments despite having a good work ethic (like Scarlett or Snute or Bunny) and being very good players.
Thus, in order to remedy the lack of money going towards foreigners, I think it is necessary that Blizzard region lock (against the Koreans) WCS so that at least temporarily, the money can give more opportunities to foreign players.
Ideally the foreign scene could set up a system like in Korea, where they play in team houses and have coaches, but in lieu of that option, I think injecting money is a somewhat favourable alternative.
On August 28 2016 19:46 Thouhastmail wrote: How about making a solid league (like WCS premier) for non-Koreans that supported by Blizzard and let first-tier tournaments open?
I think this is definitely one way to go about doing things. Though, I still think a number of tournaments should limit Koreans based purely off of giving a bit more opportunity to Koreans. Last year was a good example of foreigners doing well in WCS, but in almost all other tournaments, Koreans still dominated, and I think there should be some tournaments that are foreigner primary.
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote: [quote]
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
i dont feel like responding seriously to someone who hasnt even given me his own stance yet on the topic with arguments and then requesting an significant amount of time and thought of my own, you know, just incase of trolls.
That's unfortunate. I thought you had read through at least the past few pages of this thread. If you had, you might have seen my opinion posted in my rather lengthy responses. I do believe I was fairly clear in my stance in those posts.
That being said, my view is that I support WCS in its current iteration--though with a few caveats. I think that there should be a few more global tournaments, and I think a third season of GSL/SSL is preferable. Also, I do feel like tournaments should not be obliged to lock against Koreans in order to stay within the WCS system. They should be able to have whoever they want in their tournaments and still be supported by Blizzard.
I feel that in the past foreigners were unable to gain a sufficient amount of money through tournaments despite having a good work ethic (like Scarlett or Snute or Bunny) and being very good players.
Thus, in order to remedy the lack of money going towards foreigners, I think it is necessary that Blizzard region lock (against the Koreans) WCS so that at least temporarily, the money can give more opportunities to foreign players.
Ideally the foreign scene could set up a system like in Korea, where they play in team houses and have coaches, but in lieu of that option, I think injecting money is a somewhat favourable alternative.
On August 28 2016 19:46 Thouhastmail wrote: How about making a solid league (like WCS premier) for non-Koreans that supported by Blizzard and let first-tier tournaments open?
I think this is definitely one way to go about doing things. Though, I still think a number of tournaments should limit Koreans based purely off of giving a bit more opportunity to Koreans. Last year was a good example of foreigners doing well in WCS, but in almost all other tournaments, Koreans still dominated, and I think there should be some tournaments that are foreigner primary.
i don't care if there were 10 global events with koreans, and 1 wcs summer circuit championship that specifically bans koreans. The point is that it's wrong. You just dont lock out a specific race just because they're too good. You dont call sc2 a competitive game when you ban a certain region because they're too competitive. Matter of principle.
I'm not gonna argue whether snute scarlett etc. works hard or not, you shouldnt either. How do you judge whether gumiho works harder or scarlett? you been to their houses? seen their lifestyles? Even then, working hard is only merely a factor. People in africa work hard yet earn %1 of your income?
let me ask you, whose fault is it, the koreans or the non-koreans, that the non-koreans cannot win against the koreans?
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote: [quote]
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
i dont feel like responding seriously to someone who hasnt even given me his own stance yet on the topic with arguments and then requesting an significant amount of time and thought of my own, you know, just incase of trolls.
That's unfortunate. I thought you had read through at least the past few pages of this thread. If you had, you might have seen my opinion posted in my rather lengthy responses. I do believe I was fairly clear in my stance in those posts.
That being said, my view is that I support WCS in its current iteration--though with a few caveats. I think that there should be a few more global tournaments, and I think a third season of GSL/SSL is preferable. Also, I do feel like tournaments should not be obliged to lock against Koreans in order to stay within the WCS system. They should be able to have whoever they want in their tournaments and still be supported by Blizzard.
I feel that in the past foreigners were unable to gain a sufficient amount of money through tournaments despite having a good work ethic (like Scarlett or Snute or Bunny) and being very good players.
Thus, in order to remedy the lack of money going towards foreigners, I think it is necessary that Blizzard region lock (against the Koreans) WCS so that at least temporarily, the money can give more opportunities to foreign players.
Ideally the foreign scene could set up a system like in Korea, where they play in team houses and have coaches, but in lieu of that option, I think injecting money is a somewhat favourable alternative.
On August 28 2016 19:46 Thouhastmail wrote: How about making a solid league (like WCS premier) for non-Koreans that supported by Blizzard and let first-tier tournaments open?
I think this is definitely one way to go about doing things. Though, I still think a number of tournaments should limit Koreans based purely off of giving a bit more opportunity to Koreans. Last year was a good example of foreigners doing well in WCS, but in almost all other tournaments, Koreans still dominated, and I think there should be some tournaments that are foreigner primary.
i don't care if there were 10 global events with koreans, and 1 wcs summer circuit championship that specifically bans koreans. The point is that it's wrong. You just dont lock out a specific race just because they're too good. You dont call sc2 a competitive game when you ban a certain region because they're too competitive. Matter of principle.
I'm not gonna argue whether snute scarlett etc. works hard or not, you shouldnt either. How do you judge whether gumiho works harder or scarlett? you been to their houses? seen their lifestyles? Even then, working hard is only merely a factor. People in africa work hard yet earn %1 of your income?
let me ask you, whose fault is it, the koreans or the non-koreans, that the non-koreans cannot win against the koreans?
First of all, calm down. This isn't an attack on your person. I'm not saying they Koreans don't work hard; what I'm saying is that foreigners also work hard, but without the resources specific to Korea; they cannot compete at the same level.
What Blizzard is trying to do is raise the overall competitiveness of the entire SC2 scene. If both foreigners and Koreans can push each other to greater levels, then everyone wins.
Now, as for the morality of region locking, Blizzard is not saying that Koreans cannot compete in WCS tournaments. Instead, they want those Koreans to reside within WCS specific regions in order to compete there.
The obvious counter is that Blizzard is being racist by banning the Korean region regardless of whether or not Koreans can actually compete in WCS.
However, consider this: the GSL and SSL are region-locked tournaments. They don't come out and directly say it, but the qualifiers are all off-line. I do not believe there is any part of the GSL or the SSL that is online. In other words, you have to be in Korea to compete in Korea. With the format of GSL and SSL, it becomes expensive to compete there if you do not also reside there.
Blizzard can region-lock WCS because Korea has its own WCS. It doesn't need another league.
That's how the morality of the region locking is still fine within WCS itself. Of cours, Blizzard does have tougher restrictions, but those are more of a side issue.
On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote: I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time. The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on. I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments. I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:
On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote: [quote] WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
i dont feel like responding seriously to someone who hasnt even given me his own stance yet on the topic with arguments and then requesting an significant amount of time and thought of my own, you know, just incase of trolls.
That's unfortunate. I thought you had read through at least the past few pages of this thread. If you had, you might have seen my opinion posted in my rather lengthy responses. I do believe I was fairly clear in my stance in those posts.
That being said, my view is that I support WCS in its current iteration--though with a few caveats. I think that there should be a few more global tournaments, and I think a third season of GSL/SSL is preferable. Also, I do feel like tournaments should not be obliged to lock against Koreans in order to stay within the WCS system. They should be able to have whoever they want in their tournaments and still be supported by Blizzard.
I feel that in the past foreigners were unable to gain a sufficient amount of money through tournaments despite having a good work ethic (like Scarlett or Snute or Bunny) and being very good players.
Thus, in order to remedy the lack of money going towards foreigners, I think it is necessary that Blizzard region lock (against the Koreans) WCS so that at least temporarily, the money can give more opportunities to foreign players.
Ideally the foreign scene could set up a system like in Korea, where they play in team houses and have coaches, but in lieu of that option, I think injecting money is a somewhat favourable alternative.
On August 28 2016 19:46 Thouhastmail wrote: How about making a solid league (like WCS premier) for non-Koreans that supported by Blizzard and let first-tier tournaments open?
I think this is definitely one way to go about doing things. Though, I still think a number of tournaments should limit Koreans based purely off of giving a bit more opportunity to Koreans. Last year was a good example of foreigners doing well in WCS, but in almost all other tournaments, Koreans still dominated, and I think there should be some tournaments that are foreigner primary.
i don't care if there were 10 global events with koreans, and 1 wcs summer circuit championship that specifically bans koreans. The point is that it's wrong. You just dont lock out a specific race just because they're too good. You dont call sc2 a competitive game when you ban a certain region because they're too competitive. Matter of principle.
I'm not gonna argue whether snute scarlett etc. works hard or not, you shouldnt either. How do you judge whether gumiho works harder or scarlett? you been to their houses? seen their lifestyles? Even then, working hard is only merely a factor. People in africa work hard yet earn %1 of your income?
let me ask you, whose fault is it, the koreans or the non-koreans, that the non-koreans cannot win against the koreans?
First of all, calm down. This isn't an attack on your person. I'm not saying they Koreans don't work hard; what I'm saying is that foreigners also work hard, but without the resources specific to Korea; they cannot compete at the same level.
What Blizzard is trying to do is raise the overall competitiveness of the entire SC2 scene. If both foreigners and Koreans can push each other to greater levels, then everyone wins.
Now, as for the morality of region locking, Blizzard is not saying that Koreans cannot compete in WCS tournaments. Instead, they want those Koreans to reside within WCS specific regions in order to compete there.
The obvious counter is that Blizzard is being racist by banning the Korean region regardless of whether or not Koreans can actually compete in WCS.
However, consider this: the GSL and SSL are region-locked tournaments. They don't come out and directly say it, but the qualifiers are all off-line. I do not believe there is any part of the GSL or the SSL that is online. In other words, you have to be in Korea to compete in Korea. With the format of GSL and SSL, it becomes expensive to compete there if you do not also reside there.
Blizzard can region-lock WCS because Korea has its own WCS. It doesn't need another league.
That's how the morality of the region locking is still fine within WCS itself. Of cours, Blizzard does have tougher restrictions, but those are more of a side issue.
First of all, i am calm. I'm not korean myself so i don't know why you would think i assume its a personal attack. i just wish you would stop subjective topics to pretend its an argument. Because it's a waste of time to argue all day about whether red or blue is the better color, same about how hard each player works every day.
stop trying to present your thoughts, assumptions and speculations as facts. just statements like:
'What Blizzard is trying to do is raise the overall competitiveness of the entire SC2 scene. If both foreigners and Koreans can push each other to greater levels, then everyone wins. '
you cannot prove this. EVEN IF the foreigners are getting better, you cannot possibly pretend its the only factor is the region locking and money. lotv a completely different game compared to, -HotS to WoL-.
and as far the GSL SSL point, same reply to musicus.
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote: WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL.
Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
thats the difference, people can live in america, fly just to korea to compete in GSL without applying for korean citizenship and go home. Thus your argument is invalid.
GSL has effectively been region locked to residents of Seoul since the beginning of Sc2. You have to qualify in offline events and then have regular offline matches for about 3-4 months. And since blizzard massively supports those Korean events with money, I am okay with providing tournaments and money for people without this opportunity, too. You might not agree with me here, but it is a reasonable argument why people who live in Korea are specifically locked from those events.
And so I am happy to see the best players from different nations, who cannot easily compete in GSL, SSL and Proleague clash it out between themselves in WCS once in a while and make a living out of it. Also more money means more motivation, and more importantly the chance to go fulltime. So it is a reasonable statement to say foreign scene has gotten better, if thats true we'll see at blizzcon.
What I am certainly not okay with, is that blizzard only helps funding offline tournaments with region lock. Dreamhacks, IEMs, and other external tournaments should be open for everyone and show the viewers the best Starcraft there is.. IIRC homestory cup as an example decided not to be part of the WCS system, didn't get Blizzard money anymore and now struggles to get enough prize money for Koreans to come over.
Hopefully the success of a rather small event like the Shoutcraft Kings (with thankfully Blizzard still funds) will promt them to change things next year.
Just make the system back to what it was last year. I have zero interest in watching foreigner only tournaments and having only two seasons of starleagues doesnt really give me too many alternatives to watch the BEST players there are. Proleague is basically over and so far we have only had two starleague champions?...
Probably the most boring year of starcraft for me so far which is a shame considering how good LotV is.
On August 28 2016 20:47 Insidioussc2 wrote: Completly agree with Musicus here.
GSL has effectively been region locked to residents of Seoul since the beginning of Sc2. You have to qualify in offline events and then have regular offline matches for about 3-4 months. And since blizzard massively supports those Korean events with money, I am okay with providing tournaments and money for people without this opportunity, too. You might not agree with me here, but it is a reasonable argument why people who live in Korea are specifically locked from those events.
And so I am happy to see the best players from different nations, who cannot easily compete in GSL, SSL and Proleague clash it out between themselves in WCS once in a while and make a living out of it. Also more money means more motivation, and more importantly the chance to go fulltime. So it is a reasonable statement to say foreign scene has gotten better, if thats true we'll see at blizzcon.
What I am certainly not okay with, is that blizzard only helps funding offline tournaments with region lock. Dreamhacks, IEMs, and other external tournaments should be open for everyone and show the viewers the best Starcraft there is.. IIRC homestory cup as an example decided not to be part of the WCS system, didn't get Blizzard money anymore and now struggles to get enough prize money for Koreans to come over.
Hopefully the success of a rather small event like the Shoutcraft Kings (with thankfully Blizzard still funds) will promt them to change things next year.
Agree mostly with this. WCS seems reasonable, but banning the most competitive region from the premier weekend tourneys such as Dreamhacks, IEMs....... yeah I just can't wrap my head around that one.
On August 28 2016 19:46 Thouhastmail wrote: How about making a solid league (like WCS premier) for non-Koreans that supported by Blizzard and let first-tier tournaments open?
Many would be way happier with this I think, although if koreans are willing to move there they should still be allowed in wcs, just as foreigners can play gsl.
On August 28 2016 20:47 Insidioussc2 wrote: Completly agree with Musicus here.
GSL has effectively been region locked to residents of Seoul since the beginning of Sc2. You have to qualify in offline events and then have regular offline matches for about 3-4 months. And since blizzard massively supports those Korean events with money, I am okay with providing tournaments and money for people without this opportunity, too. You might not agree with me here, but it is a reasonable argument why people who live in Korea are specifically locked from those events.
And so I am happy to see the best players from different nations, who cannot easily compete in GSL, SSL and Proleague clash it out between themselves in WCS once in a while and make a living out of it. Also more money means more motivation, and more importantly the chance to go fulltime. So it is a reasonable statement to say foreign scene has gotten better, if thats true we'll see at blizzcon.
What I am certainly not okay with, is that blizzard only helps funding offline tournaments with region lock. Dreamhacks, IEMs, and other external tournaments should be open for everyone and show the viewers the best Starcraft there is.. IIRC homestory cup as an example decided not to be part of the WCS system, didn't get Blizzard money anymore and now struggles to get enough prize money for Koreans to come over.
Hopefully the success of a rather small event like the Shoutcraft Kings (with thankfully Blizzard still funds) will promt them to change things next year.
Agree mostly with this. WCS seems reasonable, but banning the most competitive region from the premier weekend tourneys such as Dreamhacks, IEMs....... yeah I just can't wrap my head around that one.
That'd be like blizzard telling the foreigners "look, we know you guys will never be on equal footing with Koreans in weekend tournaments and other events, so we made this little charity league for you guys so you can at least feel a little better about yourselves".
Y'know, the more I think about this change, the more it makes sense. Koreans dominating every tournament wasn't healthy any more than it would be healthy to let MLB teams into Little League. You don't learn much of anything, in terms of game mechanics and strategy, from playing in tournaments. Tournaments teach you how to bear up under stress and make good adjustments in the moment. They don't make you an abstractly better player. Practice time makes you a better player. They do, however, give a benchmark of where you are as a player, and give you insight on how to best leverage your practice time. The problem is, losing in the Ro32 to PartinG doesn't tell you much of anything. "I couldn't beat someone who has a much better practice environment." Yeah, pretty useless. Losing in the Ro4 to Nerchio, in contrast, could teach you a lot. Maybe your gamesense was off. Maybe your build order left you at a disadvantage. All that will help you practice and help you improve. Basically, what this change means is that there actually is a foreign scene now.
The few comments I see which say that foreigners should just up and move to Korea are a little comical. So if anyone who isn't Korean wants to play good Starcraft, they need to develop their skills enough that they're confident making the move, gather enough money and support to do it, and learn enough of the language to be able to effectively communicate, only to risk being rejected by an established system? Yeah, sure sounds like we're promoting equal barriers to entry, here.
On August 28 2016 22:52 Acritter wrote: Losing in the Ro4 to Nerchio, in contrast, could teach you a lot. Maybe your gamesense was off. Maybe your build order left you at a disadvantage.
But those are the same things that cause you to lose no matter who you play against. So in the end what you're implying is that if a foreign pro loses to a Korean pro they either think they did nothing wrong, they can't see what they did wrong or they don't think it matters what they did wrong. All of those things would be very bad.
This is not desirable for me, yet necessary to keep the foreign scene living.
I don't watch any of foreign tourneys non-Koreans participate due to the level of play being lower than GSL and SSL. I miss 2014/2015 when Korean played outside of Korea and the standard level of games were very high.
However, what's important for SC2 is not about giving a fair chance to every progamer; its all about expanding and sustaining the fan base when it comes to games or anything marketable. There are quite a number of people who cheer for foreign pros and who would no longer be interested in SC2 if non-Koreans die out. That will globally shrink SC2's pie. Not a good situation for all of us.
This is capitalism, guys. Even if a female athlete is lazy and not achieving anything much but is hot, she has a better chance at TV commercial ads and appearance at TV shows than her counterpart hard-working female athletes who do better in tourneys. Mind you, I'm not calling foreign gamers lazy, I admire their dedications despite not having the same environment as Koreans, but it is undeniable that the team practice system creating the massive skill difference is always accompanied by more practice and dedication. In other words Koreans do work harder even if foreigners are not lazy.
It saddens me to see that those Koreans who definitely worked harder were forced to retire. However, letting the last foreign pro retire would damage the SC2 scene to a much greater extent. I support the current system more than the previous ones even though I do not watch any games outside of Korea these days for the sake of SC2.
On August 28 2016 22:52 Acritter wrote: Losing in the Ro4 to Nerchio, in contrast, could teach you a lot. Maybe your gamesense was off. Maybe your build order left you at a disadvantage.
But those are the same things that cause you to lose no matter who you play against. So in the end what you're implying is that if a foreign pro loses to a Korean pro they either think they did nothing wrong, they can't see what they did wrong or they don't think it matters what they did wrong. All of those things would be very bad.
It isn't so much losing to a Korean, but the mental state when losing. Being horribly crushed by a Korean in a R32 is demoralizing. You don't feel good about the game, and it makes the game feel pointless to play.
Psychology is a big factor going into these tournaments. I honestly believe foreigners are similar to the Koreans skillwise, but they don't have the same mental control. They aren't quite par on skill, but they aren't leagues below.
The region lock is giving the foreigners the experience and exposure to playing on the big stage. That intimidation factor can only go away if you make it to the big stage, but foreigners were constantly being denied that experience. Its also giving them encouragement to keep playing.
Here is an article on psychology in the MLB. It doesn't apply to our SC2 players directly, but it does emphasize the importance of mental state. If the weekend tournaments are constantly being filled by Koreans in the round of 8, then foreigners are never given a chance to play under these environments. Without that experience, they will always feel inferior to the Koreans.
I don't love the region/citizen locking in the IEM and DH. I love watching Zest, herO, Maru, etc. playing. Now I'm stuck with catching re-runs on the french stream, or occasionally waking up early enough for a few matches. It sucks, but I know this is for the greater good.
What is the reason that the foreign players NEED to be around at all for sc2 scene? There are enough NOT racist folks watching for the quality of the plays and players. All this posturing is just a thin excuse for RACISM.
On August 28 2016 20:47 Insidioussc2 wrote: Completly agree with Musicus here.
GSL has effectively been region locked to residents of Seoul since the beginning of Sc2. You have to qualify in offline events and then have regular offline matches for about 3-4 months. And since blizzard massively supports those Korean events with money, I am okay with providing tournaments and money for people without this opportunity, too. You might not agree with me here, but it is a reasonable argument why people who live in Korea are specifically locked from those events.
And so I am happy to see the best players from different nations, who cannot easily compete in GSL, SSL and Proleague clash it out between themselves in WCS once in a while and make a living out of it. Also more money means more motivation, and more importantly the chance to go fulltime. So it is a reasonable statement to say foreign scene has gotten better, if thats true we'll see at blizzcon.
What I am certainly not okay with, is that blizzard only helps funding offline tournaments with region lock. Dreamhacks, IEMs, and other external tournaments should be open for everyone and show the viewers the best Starcraft there is.. IIRC homestory cup as an example decided not to be part of the WCS system, didn't get Blizzard money anymore and now struggles to get enough prize money for Koreans to come over.
Hopefully the success of a rather small event like the Shoutcraft Kings (with thankfully Blizzard still funds) will promt them to change things next year.
Agree mostly with this. WCS seems reasonable, but banning the most competitive region from the premier weekend tourneys such as Dreamhacks, IEMs....... yeah I just can't wrap my head around that one.
That'd be like blizzard telling the foreigners "look, we know you guys will never be on equal footing with Koreans in weekend tournaments and other events, so we made this little charity league for you guys so you can at least feel a little better about yourselves".
How is that different from what they did this year?
On August 28 2016 22:52 Acritter wrote: Y'know, the more I think about this change, the more it makes sense. Koreans dominating every tournament wasn't healthy any more than it would be healthy to let MLB teams into Little League. You don't learn much of anything, in terms of game mechanics and strategy, from playing in tournaments. Tournaments teach you how to bear up under stress and make good adjustments in the moment. They don't make you an abstractly better player. Practice time makes you a better player. They do, however, give a benchmark of where you are as a player, and give you insight on how to best leverage your practice time. The problem is, losing in the Ro32 to PartinG doesn't tell you much of anything. "I couldn't beat someone who has a much better practice environment." Yeah, pretty useless. Losing in the Ro4 to Nerchio, in contrast, could teach you a lot. Maybe your gamesense was off. Maybe your build order left you at a disadvantage. All that will help you practice and help you improve. Basically, what this change means is that there actually is a foreign scene now.
The few comments I see which say that foreigners should just up and move to Korea are a little comical. So if anyone who isn't Korean wants to play good Starcraft, they need to develop their skills enough that they're confident making the move, gather enough money and support to do it, and learn enough of the language to be able to effectively communicate, only to risk being rejected by an established system? Yeah, sure sounds like we're promoting equal barriers to entry, here.
Usually that's what people who want to be at the top of their fields do. If you want to study traditional martial arts at the highest level, Japan's the place to be. If you want a succesful movie career, you go to hollywood and try your luck. You want to work with the most brilliant phycisists in the world? Why not go for a job at CERN. Those barriers of entry aren't equal either, but clearly it does not stop people determined enough to try, even though they know that the chances of success are small.
Competitive sports is about wanting to be the best, and wanting to be able to best people who are better than you is probably the main motivator for most professional athletes. This is not what non-korean progamers in favour of the current WCS system want, however. They want a safe environment where people who would provide too much competition are simply denied entry because it endangers their cash flow. Their logic is that they cannot possibly become as good as Koreans because the Korean training environment is unparallelled, and as such they deserve charity in the form of the current WCS system because Blizzard cannot possibly expect them to do what is expected of top-level athletes: go to every length to become the absolute best you can be.
Before Blizzard mangled WCS I was not a fan of foreign players because most of them seemed more occupied with becoming interesting personalities rather than becoming good at the game. This view was further strengthened by fans who prefered seeing stories unfold during tournaments rather than seeing the highest possible level of play. As a consequence they stood little to no chance against "faceless Koreans" who spent full working days training their asses off in their team houses rather than fooling around on Twitch. Sure, the foreign SC2 players had the fanbase-thing down, but the "faceless Koreans" happily ran away with all the cash and awards. With the current WCS system I stopped taking foreigners serious at all. The level of play at WCS has plummeted compared to two years ago, as have the viewer numbers.
I guess this is also largely due to cultural differences between Western countries and East Asian countries. The latter tend to place incredible value on individual performance. There's a reason why many American universities get "flooded" with East Asian students, and why East Asians are overrepresented in high-level music competitions. It probably also explains why the suicide rates among students in South Korea are among the highest if not the highest in the developed world.
Either way, the current WCS system is a farce. I don't care if it forces 90% of the current non-Korean professional SC2 gamers in retirement, but I want the ban on Korean players participating in non-Korean WCS lifted. I want to see the very best duking it out against the very best, not tournaments where the two Koreans who did somehow manage to get into the tournament steamrolling the second rate competition on their way to the finals. It just isn't fun or exciting.
Winning a WCS tournament is not a badge of honour anymore. It just means that you won a tournament in which the best were banned from competing.
You never, ever ban competition from a competitive sport just because they're too good. it would make ALOT more sense if blizzard invested the money into western infrastructure.
Ban the top 5 competitors from a top 10 competition just so 11-15 can also have a chance. Does that make sense to you? It doesnt to me. Completely nullifies the purpose of the tournament. It's fine to have ALL regions seperately locked, like earlier mentioned WCS EU, WCS NA, WCS Oceania etc. but the whole world is invited except korea? come on.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
I honestly don't understand this sentiment that Koreans "take [foreigner] money". On Reddit people even went so far as to suggest that Koreans steal money from the foreigner scene. How is it stealing to win fairly? Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
You don't ask for handouts when you want to be the best player in the world. You have to practice your ass off in spite of seeing no results, then you have to work even harder and maybe then you could still fail because you don't have the mentality, the skills, the talent, whatever. Starcraft isn't a fucking charity, neither is the 100m dash or men's professional tennis. Fuck these kids that feel like shit because you can't make it past the ro32 and somehow blame anyone but themselves. There's people out there juggling two jobs, paying alimony, trying to study some courses during the little free time they have with the hope of it eventually landing them a better paying job. TO BE THE BEST IN THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO GIVE IT ALL, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SACRIFICE IT ALL WHILE RISKING EVERYTHING.
So next year we lock out of WCS Nerchio uthermal Neeb and others top foreigners so the ro32 losers of this year can have a chance then and become better? Clean
On August 29 2016 00:39 MaCRo.gg wrote: What is the reason that the foreign players NEED to be around at all for sc2 scene? There are enough NOT racist folks watching for the quality of the plays and players. All this posturing is just a thin excuse for RACISM.
Its obviously not racism, otherwise koreans would be banned from international events based on their ethnicity, Masa is competing in international events and he is korean as far as Im aware
So winning in the minors is better than losing in the Majors? Winning in D-League bball is better than losing in the NBA? Not motivated to practice because you're going to lose? Koreans don't have extra hands or fingers or a bigger brain. Maybe if a foreigner practiced that much and that hard consistently, they would be able to beat a Korean. If this nobody - and anyone who isn't in at least code A of SSL or GSL is a nobody - is right about foreigner's attitudes towards practice, it would go a long way in explaining why Koreans dominate.
no they just have better training environments.... and yes a foreigner could match a top korean if they practiced in korea with the same amount of information they are fed, doesnt seem very possible by laddering on EU server
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
I honestly don't understand this sentiment that Koreans "take [foreigner] money". On Reddit people even went so far as to suggest that Koreans steal money from the foreigner scene. How is it stealing to win fairly? Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
Well said, my man, well said.
Anyway, this thread is pointless dithering at this point, can't say more than that.
I just want to recap a few points, just want to clarify a few of my opinions:
- There is nothing wrong regional tournaments, - There is something wrong with blocking out EVERY SINGLE international, open events from Korean players, - Koreans are neither obscure, nor faceless, nor robots. They're human beings like the rest of us and the sentiment that we should be tired of watching them because they're Korean instead of white people is borderline racist, - Koreans are "better" than foreigners, I think there's a consensus on that one. Some people are saying because they have better infrastructure and practice, others say work ethic, etc. - I say, who gives a shit about that, what we want is open, international events where the only requirement necessary to play is not the color of your skin, the country on your passport or whatever strange criteria you want, but the fact that you play Starcraft.
Also:
fuck the ded gaem circlejerk, keep that out of this thread
foreigners with bad results who say that their bad results are due to reasons beyond their control are bluntly silly and not competitive. that those same foreigners say that THEY are entitled to making a living playing starcraft and that Koreans are nott, is absolute horse-shit
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
This is all out of personal interest. I follow the EU scene so I know all EU progamers. Seeing Elazer getting better and getting results is awesome since I know him from before he was even GM. Everyone has passion for sc2 but for different parts. My favourites are EU players, your favourites are KR players, nothing wrong with either of those.
On August 29 2016 02:25 ROOTFayth wrote: do any of you who follow the koreans and dont know much about the foreigner scene even play starcraft at all? beside the occasional Arcade game
Yes i play pretty much eveyrday or however much my work schedule permits. I will admit though that i gave up on 1v1 since HOTS and vast majority of my games are team games nowadays. Im not a 1v1 balance whiner mind you. I just simply enjoy team games with my friends much more.
On August 29 2016 02:25 ROOTFayth wrote: do any of you who follow the koreans and dont know much about the foreigner scene even play starcraft at all? beside the occasional Arcade game
I would actually ask the exact opposite. Do those who follow the foreigners but not the Koreans, actually follow Starcraft at all? Foreigners were pretty much obsolete 2013-2015 so what exactly were you following/watching during those years?
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
Just because you don't know the foreign players doesn't mean no one does. Personally, I don't know much about herO or Hero or Parting and Classic or Dark and Rogue. I know the names, but not much else. I know more about Byun because he is the online hero who actually speaks some english and respects the top of the foreign scene. We also hear about him more outside of games like when he posted on a Koeran forum how he barely beat Snute and Nerchio makes him shake. I know about the foreign scene because they're on TL (getting a response from Nerchio or uThermal or Drogo in a live report thread is awesome), Twitter, Reddit, etc. and a bunch of them post plenty and smack talk, complain, compliment each other, help other players out (Harstem was on the Protoss help me thread), feel down and crushed, happy and excited, and any other emotion. It's not that Koreans don't feel any of that, of course they do, but we almost never hear about it. They're not posting in forums in any language, they're not on Twitter, they don't stream, and they largely just practice in the team house and disappear except for events.
On August 29 2016 02:25 ROOTFayth wrote: do any of you who follow the koreans and dont know much about the foreigner scene even play starcraft at all? beside the occasional Arcade game
I would actually ask the exact opposite. Do those who follow the foreigners but not the Koreans, actually follow Starcraft at all? Foreigners were pretty much obsolete 2013-2015 so what exactly were you following/watching during those years?
I dunno man I dont build my schedule around korean timezone.... and whenever I was up and looking to see if there was something interesting going on on SC2 it was always mainly foreigners competing
I still know more about the korean scene than this guy seems to know about the foreigner scene but it is mostly from what I read
Also guy above me pretty much nailed it, no idea how you can relate to most koreans we dont hear much about except their GSL results
On August 29 2016 02:25 ROOTFayth wrote: do any of you who follow the koreans and dont know much about the foreigner scene even play starcraft at all? beside the occasional Arcade game
I would actually ask the exact opposite. Do those who follow the foreigners but not the Koreans, actually follow Starcraft at all? Foreigners were pretty much obsolete 2013-2015 so what exactly were you following/watching during those years?
I watched and cheered for my favorite foreigners back then, mainly Snute and Scarlett, and I watched the Koreans because nothing else was on. With the exception of Jaedong, MC, Taeja, and sometimes Life and $o$, I recognized names and some recent results, but knew next to nothing about the players themselves. Sure they played great and I recognized the difference between players and sometimes their playstyles, but her0 beating Snute or Parting vs Classic or something like that didn't give me nearly the nerd chills and excitement or just plain laughter as watching someone like Neeb play and hold an attack by the skin of his teeth or completely wreck Hydra for the 3rd time or destroy Nerchio with Carriers or Snute finally make a finals against Polt and overcome his mental block and tilt for that one day and play one of his best series under the most pressure he could be under, despite losing, or uThermal actually get past his tilt in the last half of the year and play some damn good Starcraft, or Drogo's fall and slow climb and watching his disappointment and fears manifest in game with his obvious frustration and sadness and even on Twitter as well and then, at the end of the year showing some of his best and most impressive play and just barely failing to qualify for Copa Intercontinental, then beat Nerchio 4-3 in WCA with some incredible prism micro (Go check out game 7 of that series on BTTV Youtube. Fantastic micro when it mattered most), or Scarlett's return and rise and seeing her, Neeb, and noRegret (Noregret isn't that good or a player, but he's a cool guy in the vlogs) live in Korea together and create content, and I could keep on going on, but I'll leave it here.
So yeah, I watched Koreans, but I wasn't nearly as invested or cared as much about the majority of the scene. I didn't care about so0's Kong line or Life winning the first GSL of 2015, or Innovation, or Zest, or most of the Koreans back in 2013, but Jaedong.
On August 28 2016 22:52 Acritter wrote: Losing in the Ro4 to Nerchio, in contrast, could teach you a lot. Maybe your gamesense was off. Maybe your build order left you at a disadvantage.
But those are the same things that cause you to lose no matter who you play against. So in the end what you're implying is that if a foreign pro loses to a Korean pro they either think they did nothing wrong, they can't see what they did wrong or they don't think it matters what they did wrong. All of those things would be very bad.
Losing to Parting in the Ro32 doesn't teach you as much about how you play under pressure. Being at an event is very different from being at an event on a main stage with serious money on the line. Also, the Korean reputation is very prevalent and did have an effect on foreigners. We had the famous full foreigner moments because players would gain a significant lead, and then they would throw it because the pressure was on. They were well aware of their advantage, but they weren't used to playing under that pressure against one of the best in the world who they barely believed they could beat themselves because of 4+ years of history of losing. However, losing to Nerchio in the Ro4 could teach you how you think under pressure, and, because you believe you can beat him, you're much more confident in your play and are much closer to full power and we've seen foreign throws drop significantly even against Koreans online because they're not making the same dumb mistakes as before and are learning.
On August 27 2016 06:04 DomeGetta wrote: Wow - sorry but can't disagree with this more. To make the argument that lowering the bar for competition makes players better is altruistic delusion. I can understand the point of no Koreans makes for more motivation which can lead to more practice and getting better -but then let's put the blame on the individuals who are actually responsible for you not getting better (you!) not the better players who are knocking you out of tournaments via their hard work and dedication - I can't think of a single example where nerfing competition has actually produced a stronger evolution in any facet of reality. We should just be open and honest about the situation and call the current WCS what it is - the B league - and the salaries and prize pools should scale down with it. It's ridiculous how many pro Kr players who have put in insane hours and work over the last 5 years have been forced into retirement because we've decided to create the WCS welfare program. Sorry for you guys..but since you, just like the rest of the WCS field - can't compete with the best in Korea - you're sol..but for the rest of the world we're going to glorify you and have you make a living off it. Of course what Harstem said pissed all of them off - but at least he had the balls to be honest - and my respect for him has grown tremendously based on that - it's not easy to admit something to the public that has the potential to negatively influence you financially - huge props to him for understanding the difference between wealth and value - that type of mentality will help him for the rest of his life in whatever endeavors he decides to take on.
lol honestly the more I read this I can't help but feel the interviewer was setting him up - like even the headline!? "if you lose to koreans...you can't get bettter...!" I feel like if he re-read that statement even one time he'd have been like... wait a minute.. that sounds absolutely fucking insane.. please don't post that! LOL what planet is this??!
This. I have almost completly stopped watcing SC2. The region locks makes it super boring. The term "the b-league" fits extraordinarily well
To people who say they can't relate to Koreans for not speaking English. Have you guys literally never watched a foreign language movie in your life? I understand that not everyone likes anime, but no one ever complains about subtitles. Do you guys follow soccer/football either? Do you not realize that Messi literally doesn't speak English? If you can't empathize with another person simply because you don't speak their language, then I'm sorry, I think you have some social problems.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
Just because you don't know the foreign players doesn't mean no one does. Personally, I don't know much about herO or Hero or Parting and Classic or Dark and Rogue. I know the names, but not much else. I know more about Byun because he is the online hero who actually speaks some english and respects the top of the foreign scene. We also hear about him more outside of games like when he posted on a Koeran forum how he barely beat Snute and Nerchio makes him shake. I know about the foreign scene because they're on TL (getting a response from Nerchio or uThermal or Drogo in a live report thread is awesome), Twitter, Reddit, etc. and a bunch of them post plenty and smack talk, complain, compliment each other, help other players out (Harstem was on the Protoss help me thread), feel down and crushed, happy and excited, and any other emotion. It's not that Koreans don't feel any of that, of course they do, but we almost never hear about it. They're not posting in forums in any language, they're not on Twitter, they don't stream, and they largely just practice in the team house and disappear except for events.
Funny you say that because there's some nuance in there which I agree with. The only streamer I would regularly follow is forgg's stream before he had to go back to the military.
Today the only alternative is nathanias (for me personally), which to be fair is a pretty damn good replacement.
Otherwise though I do admit that following the foreigner scene is something I used to do. In fact this was during the time where SSL didn't exist for SC2, neither did Proleague and GSL was behind a paywall. I didn't care much for the Korean scene back then. The foreign scene back then was a lot of fun though, especially with Idra around, I had a blast cheering for him. MLGs were super fun to watch, especially the ones with Boxer. MLGs were a blast to watch. One of the reasons I liked Idra was because he also streamed and that was a very fun stream to watch.
Today though it's funnily enough the other way around. There aren't a lot of player streaming at a very high level (ForGG being the highest level possible for Terran, Nathanias is just fun to listen to), but the Korean scene is very vibrant these days (unfortunately the number of seasons is lower), especially PL. It's all free too. I've completely stopped watching Dreamhack, apparently there was also an event at Montreal recently which was annoying because it meant Tasteless wasn't there to cast the ASL, which is also by the way a huge amount of fun.
People watch tournaments for different reasons, as a casual player and viewer, I'm not going to bother watching lower league tournaments, I'm going to watch the best players play in the most stacked possible tournaments and see games go down to the edge of a knife. I might watch a weekend event but I don't care if Neeb, Bly or Thermal wins anything because they aren't doing it where all the big fish are.
You can't say I'm wrong or right, the reason why people watch SC at all is pretty personal.
Edit: For the record, I'm also a part of the Aoe3 community and I've got buckets of friends there who also watch starcraft. There isn't a single one who likes the anti-Korea region lock either. Maybe it's because we're all die hard RTS fans or something
On August 29 2016 05:23 207aicila wrote: Fayth's posts in this thread are both hilarious and pathetic. I hope whoever lifted his ban is happy with himself.
Fayth's post contain some truth/some patheticness.
Like he is truth in saying that SC2 is dying (and it is downsized with a division by 8 from its peak and at its peak isn't even THAT strong, like BW still had millions of viewership while SC2 was playing around the 100,000 to 500,000 viewer range).
But he is pathetic in saying that foreigners on average can actually catch up to Korean player, the chance of that happening is like less than 2%.
So MANY chances have to happen: 1. like Korean players aren't losing skills, its just matter of skills. Korean players just know far more moves ahead of you and move their hand faster than you.
2. You need to learn Korean and move their, there are only maybe less than 100 people in the world that want to do that, they are the people that are currently the top 100 foreigners.
Well how many of them are learning Korean from scratch?
0.
3. Who will sponsor you? Look we had the most money in SC2 when viewership was at the highest viewership. Sponsors just see SC2 as a sinking ship at the moment. Unless there are some nice fan willing to sponsor their player to live in Korea with actually cash.
Are fans doing that? No they are not.
In conclusion: By math, thinking that foreigners have great hope in catching up is very pathetic.
I feel like it's disappointing that the WCS global events never really materialized even though Blizzard left them open as a possibility. On top of this, the weekend tournaments (IEMs and Dreamhacks) replaced the regular WCS leagues in America and Europe and became region locked.
Ideally, the regular global WCS leagues should've been heavily region-locked from the start. As a compromise, only half the weekend events should be region-locked while the other half should be open to Koreans. The current iteration of WCS went way too far into the region-locked direction without giving much compensation to the Korean scene, and this could damage an already precarious scene.
On August 29 2016 05:59 ROOTFayth wrote: also the chances of a foreigner catching up to a korean is 50%, either they catch up or they dont
Welp, you sound like the guy who tells some afraid patience of a more easy to heal variant of cancer (95% healing chance) "Dont worry, the chance of dying is 50%, either you do or you dont"...
I think it's unlikely foreigners will ever overcome Korea's reign completely. At the very best, I think we could see a few foreigners start taking games off of a big name occasionally, and placing top 8 against Koreans. But Scarlett and Neeb are both really solid foreigners right now, even against Koreans. Are they top-tier? Naw... But they are getting up there.
It's not impossible for a foreigner to be considered "one of the best in the world", but foreigners have a much harder time without the Korean infrastructure. And that is the primary reason there is a region lock.
@Above It is impossible to attribute a percent chance to a situation happening like that. There is no way to actually determine the probability... It's just your estimation, and since the scenario will only ever happen once, you will have no way of ever knowing whether your estimation was accurate to begin with.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
Just because you don't know the foreign players doesn't mean no one does. Personally, I don't know much about herO or Hero or Parting and Classic or Dark and Rogue. I know the names, but not much else. I know more about Byun because he is the online hero who actually speaks some english and respects the top of the foreign scene. We also hear about him more outside of games like when he posted on a Koeran forum how he barely beat Snute and Nerchio makes him shake. I know about the foreign scene because they're on TL (getting a response from Nerchio or uThermal or Drogo in a live report thread is awesome), Twitter, Reddit, etc. and a bunch of them post plenty and smack talk, complain, compliment each other, help other players out (Harstem was on the Protoss help me thread), feel down and crushed, happy and excited, and any other emotion. It's not that Koreans don't feel any of that, of course they do, but we almost never hear about it. They're not posting in forums in any language, they're not on Twitter, they don't stream, and they largely just practice in the team house and disappear except for events.
Almost no pro is actively on TL and since there is almost no stream anymore you can't really follow pros. Where do you see foreign pros happy or excited on TL? Maybe their twitter but most foreign winners don't show more emotions on the stream when winning than Koreans. Plus the only foreigner close to the likes of MC on stream was maybe Stephano ? Yet he didn't steal the show as much at all.
The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
uThermal: TRUE won a single elimination tournament, beating two players who were top eight in WCS points. And I won a single elimination tournament beating four players who were in the top eight. His format wasn’t harder, it wasn’t a harder tournament. But his just happened to have more points points and money. I think I actually won a harder tournament than TRUE did, but he just got lucky and won the right tournament.
uThermal: TRUE won a single elimination tournament, beating two players who were top eight in WCS points. And I won a single elimination tournament beating four players who were in the top eight. His format wasn’t harder, it wasn’t a harder tournament. But his just happened to have more points points and money. I think I actually won a harder tournament than TRUE did, but he just got lucky and won the right tournament.
Polt/Snute are top 5, Harstem is top 10, Welmu/HeRoMaRinE are like top 20 Snute/Neeb are top 5, viOLet/Elazer are top 10
I'd say they're about as impressive tbf. Neeb's PvT is probably better than Polt's TvZ, so you could argue for uThermal's being better, but they're at least even.
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
I feel the best way to close the gap would be to make ladder just one big server and throw the whole world in with some sort of middle ground latency, koreans would probably stay better overall because of team houses,coaches and more higher % of players coming from korea.
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
I wouldn't. Like I said earlier, if you were losing to Koreans in the Ro32 before the Region Lock, that's probably the level you belong at anyway
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
I wouldn't. Like I said earlier, if you were losing to Koreans in the Ro32 before the Region Lock, that's probably the level you belong at anyway
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
Nobody has ever said that foreign teams are not allowed to get coaches/teamhouses. If you think about it, the conditions really are the same. There's absolutely nothing that Koreans do that foreigners can't do if they want to.
Oh and about Koreans not being banned - if you live close to Korea you're still allowed to play. The region lock is only for koreans, which is plain stupid and quite racist. And when Koreans found a way to get around the system (by moving to EU/US) they made the restrictions even harder, forcing koreans out of the regions. Only a very select few are allowed to play outside of Korea which is just dumb.
Think of it like this; a practice partner in Korea, or someone just outside the A-team so to speak, may be much better than most foreigners but has no opportunity to play in proleague and a part from that there's only GSL and SSL. Blizzard's restrictions effectively kills such players careers as there is no way for them to profit, even though they are extremely skilled at the game.
Besides, I'm pretty sure most of us enjoyed the old IEMs / MLGs / Dreamhacks where loads of Koreans showed up and made for epic tournaments. Foreign tournaments right now are just meh, not really fun to watch, and is only basically charity to foreign players so they can make good money playing the game. I much prefered watching the Koreans and the occasional very skilled foreigner (NaNiwa, Stephano, Scarlett for example) actually beating the Koreans. That was some hyped shit. Foreign tournaments nowadays is just meh and hardly anyone watches them. The little king of the hill tournament that Totalbiscuit organized got way higher viewership than foreign WCS tournaments. Go figure.
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
I wouldn't. Like I said earlier, if you were losing to Koreans in the Ro32 before the Region Lock, that's probably the level you belong at anyway
Even if you faced PartinG in a Dreamhack?
So the fact that PartinG was a better player than uThermal at the time made PartinG less worthy of winning the game? PartinG was the better player and hence he advanced. If uThermal wanted to have a shot at beating PartinG, he'd have to practice more or more effectively. There are foreigners that have beaten PartinG on several occasions. uThermal was not one of them because he was not good enough at the game.
Needless to say this whole foreign charity thing triggers me, and I feel sorry for the Koreans that are forced to accept the racism coming out of Blizzard, or quit the game.
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
It doesnt raise foreign scene level, it gives foreigners a lot more money for their level.
Wait. You were getting bodied by Korean players and couldn't even make it out of pools. They removed ALL Korean players from your tournament. Now you're winning.
How can you not see the correlation?
Wait so the foreign scene in it's entirety wasn't "trying hard" before the hard region lock? Man, that's such a disrespect to players who were competing at the highest level.
It's great that the foreign scene is seeing a resurgence but it is definitely at the expense of quality of play.
Blizzcon is going to be an absolute bloodbath unless Bliz decides to stack the bracket.
I still don't understand why we couldn't simply region lock the old WCS system. That way we would still have foreigners and Koreans competing in Dreamhacks and IEMs
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
Nobody has ever said that foreign teams are not allowed to get coaches/teamhouses. If you think about it, the conditions really are the same. There's absolutely nothing that Koreans do that foreigners can't do if they want to.
Oh and about Koreans not being banned - if you live close to Korea you're still allowed to play. The region lock is only for koreans, which is plain stupid and quite racist. And when Koreans found a way to get around the system (by moving to EU/US) they made the restrictions even harder, forcing koreans out of the regions. Only a very select few are allowed to play outside of Korea which is just dumb.
Think of it like this; a practice partner in Korea, or someone just outside the A-team so to speak, may be much better than most foreigners but has no opportunity to play in proleague and a part from that there's only GSL and SSL. Blizzard's restrictions effectively kills such players careers as there is no way for them to profit, even though they are extremely skilled at the game.
Besides, I'm pretty sure most of us enjoyed the old IEMs / MLGs / Dreamhacks where loads of Koreans showed up and made for epic tournaments. Foreign tournaments right now are just meh, not really fun to watch, and is only basically charity to foreign players so they can make good money playing the game. I much prefered watching the Koreans and the occasional very skilled foreigner (NaNiwa, Stephano, Scarlett for example) actually beating the Koreans. That was some hyped shit. Foreign tournaments nowadays is just meh and hardly anyone watches them. The little king of the hill tournament that Totalbiscuit organized got way higher viewership than foreign WCS tournaments. Go figure.
The thing is those just outisde of A team Koreans have a house to live in and expenses taken care of by their teams. Foreign teams don't have that. Also, no, foreign teams can't really do that. The money isn't there and nor is the experience. Also, moving from one region of Korea to Seoul to live in a teamhouse is very different from moving from America to Germany or something like that. Also, those players are valued as practice partners and maybe even as snipe players in Proleague so they aren't gonna get dropped. Also, those players didn't go to foreign events to compete anyway because teams wouldn't send them so regionlocking had no effect on them.
I actually didn't like almost any IEMs/DHs last year. They were boring to me with players I didn't have any reason to care about. It's partially the fault of ESL for that, but, they also just aren't very well known in general in the West and we usually don't hear about them outside of tournaments. You also forget that for every super hyped match with Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett, and Snute, there were a dozen where they were stomped 0-3 or 1-3 and had extremely boring matches. Sure they were more hyped, but they were also literally every month or so and everyone already knew the results and were just vainly hoping it would be different. When it was it was exciting for a little while then no one cared anymore.
Also, if you go look at Fuzic.nl, last year, DH and IEM were almost always the least viewed events. The only events that consistently had high viewership was WCS Premier league which was a foreign event.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
Just because you don't know the foreign players doesn't mean no one does. Personally, I don't know much about herO or Hero or Parting and Classic or Dark and Rogue. I know the names, but not much else. I know more about Byun because he is the online hero who actually speaks some english and respects the top of the foreign scene. We also hear about him more outside of games like when he posted on a Koeran forum how he barely beat Snute and Nerchio makes him shake. I know about the foreign scene because they're on TL (getting a response from Nerchio or uThermal or Drogo in a live report thread is awesome), Twitter, Reddit, etc. and a bunch of them post plenty and smack talk, complain, compliment each other, help other players out (Harstem was on the Protoss help me thread), feel down and crushed, happy and excited, and any other emotion. It's not that Koreans don't feel any of that, of course they do, but we almost never hear about it. They're not posting in forums in any language, they're not on Twitter, they don't stream, and they largely just practice in the team house and disappear except for events.
Almost no pro is actively on TL and since there is almost no stream anymore you can't really follow pros. Where do you see foreign pros happy or excited on TL? Maybe their twitter but most foreign winners don't show more emotions on the stream when winning than Koreans. Plus the only foreigner close to the likes of MC on stream was maybe Stephano ? Yet he didn't steal the show as much at all.
I never said they were all super active, but many of the top pros are fairly active on Twitter, and I see pros in threads on TL pretty often, especially Nerchio. We have puCK streaming and he's pretty cool, TLO streams a bunch and so does Demuslim. I don't know what tournaments you are watching, but I see a lot more celebration from foreigners than most Koreans did at events. Either way, it's still significantly more active than Korean pros who I hear nothing at all about. It makes me care a lot more about them because I hear them much more often and get different glimpses whereas with Koreans I hear nothing.
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
Also I will ask again. Who exactly are these obscure Koreans you speak of? At this point Korean players are much more well known than foreigner players. I can barely remember who Uthermal is, nor do I know anything about his personality or nationality. If anything, its faceless foreigners like Shadown and Cham who are taking money from Korean players with WCS.
This so much. Uthermal who? Showtime? Besides a couple of big names like Scarlett and Stephano, etc, the majority of famous sc2 progamers that i know and follow are korean.
Just because you don't know the foreign players doesn't mean no one does. Personally, I don't know much about herO or Hero or Parting and Classic or Dark and Rogue. I know the names, but not much else. I know more about Byun because he is the online hero who actually speaks some english and respects the top of the foreign scene. We also hear about him more outside of games like when he posted on a Koeran forum how he barely beat Snute and Nerchio makes him shake. I know about the foreign scene because they're on TL (getting a response from Nerchio or uThermal or Drogo in a live report thread is awesome), Twitter, Reddit, etc. and a bunch of them post plenty and smack talk, complain, compliment each other, help other players out (Harstem was on the Protoss help me thread), feel down and crushed, happy and excited, and any other emotion. It's not that Koreans don't feel any of that, of course they do, but we almost never hear about it. They're not posting in forums in any language, they're not on Twitter, they don't stream, and they largely just practice in the team house and disappear except for events.
Almost no pro is actively on TL and since there is almost no stream anymore you can't really follow pros. Where do you see foreign pros happy or excited on TL? Maybe their twitter but most foreign winners don't show more emotions on the stream when winning than Koreans. Plus the only foreigner close to the likes of MC on stream was maybe Stephano ? Yet he didn't steal the show as much at all.
I never said they were all super active, but many of the top pros are fairly active on Twitter, and I see pros in threads on TL pretty often, especially Nerchio. We have puCK streaming and he's pretty cool, TLO streams a bunch and so does Demuslim. I don't know what tournaments you are watching, but I see a lot more celebration from foreigners than most Koreans did at events. Either way, it's still significantly more active than Korean pros who I hear nothing at all about. It makes me care a lot more about them because I hear them much more often and get different glimpses whereas with Koreans I hear nothing.
The culture is of course different, but Koreans are quite active on Korean forums. Their limited english makes it hard for them to be really active on TL or places like that.
On August 29 2016 08:42 sd_andeh wrote: The racism towards Koreans only because they're better. Man up and practice more so you become a better player, don't look for charity from Blizzard.
I like uThermal and I think he's a very cool terran to watch, but what this entire thing is essentially a punishment towards Koreans for being too good at the game.
Imagine if foreigners were banned from competing in Korea because they were "too good". The whole "korean racism" would blow up completely.
Koreans are not banned. They just have to reside in the appropriate region to compete in WCS.
The problem with saying "just get better" it's like saying to an athlete "just get better." But the Koreans have a system in place where Koreans have the opportunity to join teams and benefit from infrastructure. Foreigners do not have this opportunity.
Since 2012-2015, Koreans have dominated almost all tournaments because of their skill, hard work, and benefiting from the Korean infrastructure like coaches and teamhouses. Koreans have not won just because they work harder and have more skill, but because they have this third element.
So because they have dominated, foreigners have not been able acquire as much prize as they might have if tournaments were region locked. And I think (though this could be wrong) that this has contributed to a decline in relative skill of foreigners to Koreans. Because they are beaten in the Ro16 and the Ro32, they can't really make much of a living without teams or sponsors. (And even then motivation can be a problem).
So yes, you could say that Koreans are punished by somewhat limiting their ability to compete in other tournaments, but I would say that this is a sort of necessary evil to raise the level of the foreign scene. Besides, it's not like GSL and SSL made their qualifiers online.
So I would ask you, how would you, as Blizzard, raise the foreign scene talent?
Nobody has ever said that foreign teams are not allowed to get coaches/teamhouses. If you think about it, the conditions really are the same. There's absolutely nothing that Koreans do that foreigners can't do if they want to.
Oh and about Koreans not being banned - if you live close to Korea you're still allowed to play. The region lock is only for koreans, which is plain stupid and quite racist. And when Koreans found a way to get around the system (by moving to EU/US) they made the restrictions even harder, forcing koreans out of the regions. Only a very select few are allowed to play outside of Korea which is just dumb.
Think of it like this; a practice partner in Korea, or someone just outside the A-team so to speak, may be much better than most foreigners but has no opportunity to play in proleague and a part from that there's only GSL and SSL. Blizzard's restrictions effectively kills such players careers as there is no way for them to profit, even though they are extremely skilled at the game.
I'll admit that it's not the greatest decision to region lock only Koreans.
However, what Korean ever did well last year that did not already do well in individual leagues or at least in proleague?
For the most part, the only Koreans in 2014-2015 who did "better than most foreigners" (so like top 8/16ish) were Koreans who already did well in proleague and GSL/SSL.
So the romanticizing of the Korean practice partner who can't quite make it in Proleague or the other leagues would do well outside of Korea is not really true because when they had the opportunity to do so, they did very poorly. Yes there are some who have had resurgence in 2016, like speed, but he is among the few.
They had to go through the Korean qualifiers or be invited. And really, only the more established Koreans made it through the qualifiers or were invited.
I point toward the douyu, corsair, Olimoleague, and leifeng mini-tournaments to show how well the unknown Koreans fare. I've looked through s number of brackets on liquipedia, and they do very poorly even against foreigners.
Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
I don't get this need for fans to 'hang out with the stars' to be able to connect to and enjoy watching SC2 - or any sport for that matter.
True, I am entertained by off-field antics (press conferences, trash talk, interviews, etc.). But even if you take them away, I would still continue watching the sport. I watch football for what happens on the pitch, not what happens in the private lives and homes of Messi and Ronaldo.
So weird. Some fanboys seem drawn to SC2 the same way as girls are drawn to 'Keeping Up With The Kardashians' - for the drama. In fact, the way they are drawn towards personalities instead of the actual game also reminds me of my girl friends who got into football because of the David Beckhams (and whose interest gradually dropped off once their favourite player retired and their favourite player's former club/country underperformed)...
On August 29 2016 11:41 kaykoose wrote: I still don't understand why we couldn't simply region lock the old WCS system. That way we would still have foreigners and Koreans competing in Dreamhacks and IEMs
I'm guessing it might be a mix of money problems with ESL no longer wanting to run the regular league and/or the IEMs and Dreamhacks wanting a reason to region-lock themselves to draw in more viewers with more non-Korean players. It was probably cheapest to integrate the WCS system into existing tournaments instead of having it as a separate league. There's also a clip of Carmac expressing a lot of regret about Koreans getting unleashed onto the global scene so much and so early.
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
Speaking oral English is a completely different beast than typing for non native speaker. Unless you live in Asian countries that use English heavily like Singapore, most others even Hong Kong will be pretty reluctant to speak English.
And I don't see why it matters. Just learn to get over language barrier if you are a fan/ you like his style. I don't see Korean or Japanese pop star needing to speak English or Chinese when they come to concerts here (other than one or two sentences I guess)
Most of the time I don't even know what the song lyrics is about, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their songs.
On August 29 2016 11:41 kaykoose wrote: I still don't understand why we couldn't simply region lock the old WCS system. That way we would still have foreigners and Koreans competing in Dreamhacks and IEMs
Pretty sure it's because IEM and DH didn't want to keep doing it as it was before.
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
Speaking oral English is a completely different beast than typing for non native speaker. Unless you live in Asian countries that use English heavily like Singapore, most others even Hong Kong will be pretty reluctant to speak English.
And I don't see why it matters. Just learn to get over language barrier if you are a fan/ you like his style. I don't see Korean or Japanese pop star needing to speak English or Chinese when they come to concerts here (other than one or two sentences I guess)
Most of the time I don't even know what the song lyrics is about, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their songs.
Yes, music is such a good analogy! In such concerts, sometimes the pop stars will just say one or two words in the language of the country they're visiting (like "Hello, Manila!"), and that's enough to send their fans wild. Yes, as fans, it's always a dream to connect to our idols on a personal level (I would be so happy if I could chat with Messi or SNSD), but we are realistic and don't expect them to hang out with us. In fact, we understand their need to spend more time practising in the studio and the football pitch. And if an idol don't feel comfortable engaging with fans too much, that's fine. As long as they keep producing good music and performance on the pitch, we're happy.
I totally understand liking a celebrity over another because the former is more engaging. That's why Taylor Swift has so many fans. But to tune off and shun a particular musician just because he or she doesn't reply your tweets and fan mails? That's just silly. It's like travelling to watch the World Cup at the host city, and then choosing not to watch the finals just because your favourite team got knocked out early. That's just silly. It's fine if you prefer to root for foreigners because they're more personable and engaging. But to not watch a SC2 tourney altogether just because Koreans are playing? That's just silly.
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
Speaking oral English is a completely different beast than typing for non native speaker. Unless you live in Asian countries that use English heavily like Singapore, most others even Hong Kong will be pretty reluctant to speak English.
And I don't see why it matters. Just learn to get over language barrier if you are a fan/ you like his style. I don't see Korean or Japanese pop star needing to speak English or Chinese when they come to concerts here (other than one or two sentences I guess)
Most of the time I don't even know what the song lyrics is about, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their songs.
Yes, as fans, it's always a dream to connect to our idols on a personal level (I would be so happy if I could chat with Messi or SNSD),
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
Speaking oral English is a completely different beast than typing for non native speaker. Unless you live in Asian countries that use English heavily like Singapore, most others even Hong Kong will be pretty reluctant to speak English.
And I don't see why it matters. Just learn to get over language barrier if you are a fan/ you like his style. I don't see Korean or Japanese pop star needing to speak English or Chinese when they come to concerts here (other than one or two sentences I guess)
Most of the time I don't even know what the song lyrics is about, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their songs.
Yes, as fans, it's always a dream to connect to our idols on a personal level (I would be so happy if I could chat with Messi or SNSD),
Sounds a bit weird to me
Why so weird? You don't want to have a lunch chat with your idol, if given a chance? Obama? Flash? Anyone?
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
Speaking oral English is a completely different beast than typing for non native speaker. Unless you live in Asian countries that use English heavily like Singapore, most others even Hong Kong will be pretty reluctant to speak English.
And I don't see why it matters. Just learn to get over language barrier if you are a fan/ you like his style. I don't see Korean or Japanese pop star needing to speak English or Chinese when they come to concerts here (other than one or two sentences I guess)
Most of the time I don't even know what the song lyrics is about, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their songs.
Yes, as fans, it's always a dream to connect to our idols on a personal level (I would be so happy if I could chat with Messi or SNSD),
Sounds a bit weird to me
Why so weird? You don't want to have a lunch chat with your idol, if given a chance? Obama? Flash? Anyone?
If many/everyone has this opportunity, the idols are not special anymore.
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
Speaking oral English is a completely different beast than typing for non native speaker. Unless you live in Asian countries that use English heavily like Singapore, most others even Hong Kong will be pretty reluctant to speak English.
And I don't see why it matters. Just learn to get over language barrier if you are a fan/ you like his style. I don't see Korean or Japanese pop star needing to speak English or Chinese when they come to concerts here (other than one or two sentences I guess)
Most of the time I don't even know what the song lyrics is about, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their songs.
Yes, as fans, it's always a dream to connect to our idols on a personal level (I would be so happy if I could chat with Messi or SNSD),
Sounds a bit weird to me
Why so weird? You don't want to have a lunch chat with your idol, if given a chance? Obama? Flash? Anyone?
If many/everyone has this opportunity, the idols are not special anymore.
Yeah, hence why most fans (secretly) dream to be the lucky one-in-a-million fan to get this opportunity
Anyway, the point is, it's normal for fans to want to get to know their idols better, directly or indirectly. Of course, there are some fans who don't.
On August 29 2016 13:54 ROOTFayth wrote: Why is it that most koreans don't learn english though, this always confused me, do they exclusively hang out on korean websites? We've got people on here that speak spanish, french, german, swedish etc. etc. and everybody speaks a pretty decent english, it would be so much easier for us foreigners to root for them if they could communicate with us without a translator... proof of this is that we actually root for players like Hydra, Polt, Violet etc. and It's only because they went out of their way to be part of the entire community, the worldwide one.
I could care less if Koreans spoke English or not. I don't need to understand their language, I just want a good caster on their games.
I don't care about interviews, period. I skip them over in the VODs, do something else during live streams.
You seem to think that going from a Latin or Germanic language to English is comparable to going from an Asian language to English. It's not.
And correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't there more Koreans moving to NA/EU and learning English (Polt, Hydra, MC, Violet, MVP, etc) than vice versa? And not all them were in their prime, came from a BW infrastructure, and were assured of winning and making the switch worth the while. Doesn't this clearly reflect the difference in mentalities and motivational levels?
On August 29 2016 16:30 RKC wrote: And correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't there more Koreans moving to NA/EU and learning English (Polt, Hydra, MC, Violet, MVP, etc) than vice versa? And not all them were in their prime, came from a BW infrastructure, and were assured of winning and making the switch worth the while. Doesn't this clearly reflect the difference in mentalities and motivational levels?
going to korea is usually that expensive that you need to get smth like top4 GSL or SSL to not lose money since you have to stay like 4 month for 1 season+pay for travel. Also you can't really compare learning english to learning korean for obvious reasons, Afaik it was always Showtimes dream to go to korea, but he never had a big team back in the days and now it's really not worth it anymore, so it's not like foreigners never wanted to go to korea. Also players who start playing games competitively earlier will usually have an advantage and most korean pros started quite early while players like Lambo started playing a game competitively at like almost 18(?).
This interview and most of the foreign players crying in comments is total BS!
I do understand winning do motivate you to become better in some ways, but only competing with the best will push you to improve yourself! Having only one chance to do that in Blizzcon is absolutely ridiculous! And you guys already decided that this one tournament means nothing on it's own!
Now I don't mind locking up some tournaments for foreigners only, so you guys could make a decent living and be motivated, but locking up all the foreign tournaments is simply insane! To be totally honest from spectator and viewer point of view the current WCS system is a complete garbage! I am no entertained as much with it compared to previous years, and apparently I am not the only one.
You guys have to be honest to yourselves and admit the current system is harmful for the over stacked Korean scene, the game, and the overall quality of entertainment it provides. And only benefit you guys! And I am not saying you are a bunch of no goods lazy players, but if you keep the current system I guarantee you will become that way!
Again, I don't mind locking some tournaments but not all of them. The current system sucks big time!
On August 29 2016 16:30 RKC wrote: And correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't there more Koreans moving to NA/EU and learning English (Polt, Hydra, MC, Violet, MVP, etc) than vice versa? And not all them were in their prime, came from a BW infrastructure, and were assured of winning and making the switch worth the while. Doesn't this clearly reflect the difference in mentalities and motivational levels?
going to korea is usually that expensive that you need to get smth like top4 GSL or SSL to not lose money since you have to stay like 4 month for 1 season+pay for travel. Also you can't really compare learning english to learning korean for obvious reasons, Afaik it was always Showtimes dream to go to korea, but he never had a big team back in the days and now it's really not worth it anymore, so it's not like foreigners never wanted to go to korea. Also players who start playing games competitively earlier will usually have an advantage and most korean pros started quite early while players like Lambo started playing a game competitively at like almost 18(?).
we'll probably never see a non-korean world champion. as you said, the money is just not there. i don't think its that big of a deal though.
TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
It does feel strange that the people who financially benefit from the region lock (at the expense of the people who suffer from it) will support this system and expect everyone else to take their opinion as anywhere near objective or un-biased.
I am unsure how it will impact the popularity of SC2 in the long run, but it is still something that feels "wrong".
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
"2016 Wcs system supporters are literally Trump supporters"
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
Wow... Way to politicize it... Your world view is dangerous and should be ridiculed till the end of time. See how dumb that sounds when you attack? Focus on the argument/opinion... stupid Liberal... Ha, see, doesn't help the debate. Now, back to the topic at hand.
Yes, motivation is a key point in uThermal's argument. If someone goes into something defeated, they are not going to get better. While there are a few exceptions, a majority of the international scenes feel the same way. Blizzcon should be the "World Series" of Tournaments. This I support with the region lock. Growing up in the 2000s, I loved watching WCG in Brood War. The event felt more special (even if the Koreans were 2-0, 3-0 all competition). Something tells me, Blizzard wants that again. If I have seen Parting vs (insert Foreigner) 5 times in 2016 already and Parting is 5-0, watching the Blizzcon match has no appeal. However, if they haven't played all year, it makes the match more exciting/interesting.
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
On August 29 2016 16:30 RKC wrote: And correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't there more Koreans moving to NA/EU and learning English (Polt, Hydra, MC, Violet, MVP, etc) than vice versa? And not all them were in their prime, came from a BW infrastructure, and were assured of winning and making the switch worth the while. Doesn't this clearly reflect the difference in mentalities and motivational levels?
going to korea is usually that expensive that you need to get smth like top4 GSL or SSL to not lose money since you have to stay like 4 month for 1 season+pay for travel. Also you can't really compare learning english to learning korean for obvious reasons, Afaik it was always Showtimes dream to go to korea, but he never had a big team back in the days and now it's really not worth it anymore, so it's not like foreigners never wanted to go to korea. Also players who start playing games competitively earlier will usually have an advantage and most korean pros started quite early while players like Lambo started playing a game competitively at like almost 18(?).
You don't know what you're talking about.
Ask a player like State how hard it is to move to Korea.
On August 29 2016 22:44 iloveav wrote: It does feel strange that the people who financially benefit from the region lock (at the expense of the people who suffer from it) will support this system and expect everyone else to take their opinion as anywhere near objective or un-biased.
I am unsure how it will impact the popularity of SC2 in the long run, but it is still something that feels "wrong".
I'm not sure I agree with this argument. Pro players may be the ones that benefit from region lock, but they are also the people that would MOST benefit from a popular and successful game. I'm quite sure they are all pretty smart people, and know that the more SC2 is doing better, the more their careers can move forward and keep going.
Also, something we may be missing/forgetting: I'm very sure that all progamers (and casters / community people for what it matters) are very passionate about SC2. I/we are all random fans of the game, I may care about it but not at the level of someone who made it his/her career and professional occupation. I don't think anybody went into starcraft, to become a progamer, because they wanted the money (there are more stable / higher rewarding careers for sure, following more standard paths).
I'm much more inclined to listen to the opinion of someone who care about this game enough to make it its main occupation, rather than the opinion of a fan (of course I'm just a fan as well): that's why I like these interviews very much, and I think we should give progamers their credit and listen to what they say with less suspicion (I'm not saying to take everything without critical sense, but also not suspecting them to talk just to their own benefit).
p.s. about moving to korea vs moving from korea to europe/NA I see a huge difference between an accomplished progamer (like MC to name one) who moves to Europe knowing that he already earned a lot of money and that he is moving there to bring his *huge* skill and experience in a different tournament system, versus someone that moves from Europe to Korea without having prior results, and who is moving to be in a system where i can improve. Koreans don't move to Europe/NA to improve, but to compete in a different system. Foreigners would have to move to Korea to improve and, only then, reap the benefit of their improvements. It's a much higher bet, it takes much more time and it's more difficult. I see a parallel (with all the caveats) in what happens in other sports, where athletes at the end of their careers move to regions where their sport is less developed / competitive to play for a few more years: this is not *that* difficult, see rugby players from NZ/SA/AUS playing their last years in Japan. The opposite is much much much more unlikely, you almost never see a European rugby player moving to NZ to compete in their championship
I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
Wow... Way to politicize it... Your world view is dangerous and should be ridiculed till the end of time. See how dumb that sounds when you attack? Focus on the argument/opinion... stupid Liberal... Ha, see, doesn't help the debate. Now, back to the topic at hand.
Keep building that wall. It isn't killing interest and the scene at all.
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
What about Life, hardworking professional who gambled away all his money and match fixed among other things...
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either.
We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones!
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either.
We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones!
Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity.
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: -RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER.
the pie is shrinking and its interesting watching Blizzard trying to slice it up differently.
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either.
We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones!
Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity.
Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague)
So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments.
Oh, and as for opportunities for new Korean players, they didn't have much opportunity when the regions weren't locked because the other, stronger Koreans beat them in the qualifiers.
I'm not saying I that I don't want more global events but that what the Koreans got this year was not that bad in comparison to what the foreigners got.
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either.
We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones!
Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity.
Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague)
So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments.
Oh, and as for opportunities for new Korean players, they didn't have much opportunity when the regions weren't locked because the other, stronger Koreans beat them in the qualifiers.
I'm not saying I that I don't want more global events but that what the Koreans got this year was not that bad in comparison to what the foreigners got.
Just curious, what are you counting as for the Korean tournaments besides 2 SSL, 2 GSL, and Proleague?
I personally don't consider the SSL+GSL cross-finals as a full tournament.
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either.
We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones!
Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity.
Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague)
So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments.
Technically you're correct. But don't forget that Koreans are only allowed to go to 7 of these tournaments, while foreigners are allowed to go to all of them, which is simply just discrimination.
yes they forced koreans out.. killed the scene in korea.. but now its honestly not so interesting to wach.. when you know thre are 100 better players locked in korea than uthermal or other top foreigns winning like snute.. its nice to see foreigns but at the cost of retiring the best players in the world is sad.. , its sure a reason why a lot of people stop watching.. since the finals are played by tier 2 or tier 3 players
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
Impossible to argue with someone who thinks that a handful of Koreans making tons of money in sc2 somehow means that they all are or that punishing every single player from a certain country because of their fellow countryman's success is a good idea.
On August 30 2016 03:40 iamkaokao wrote: yes they forced koreans out.. killed the scene in korea.. but now its honestly not so interesting to wach.. when you know thre are 100 better players locked in korea than uthermal or other top foreigns winning like snute.. its nice to see foreigns but at the cost of retiring the best players in the world is sad.. , its sure a reason why a lot of people stop watching.. since the finals are played by tier 2 or tier 3 players
There are not that many better players tho. Even at WoL launch there wasn't that many... There is so little left in Korea that their skill has lowered. If they injected money into korean sc2 + some KR vs for events it would have been much better.
On August 30 2016 00:21 Blargh wrote: I think it's silly for people to suddenly stop being a fan from what uThermals saying in the interview. Even though his attitude and views are totally biased, what he is saying isn't necessarily wrong. There are many distinct advantages that being born and living in Korea have as compared to other places. While it's true, Koreans who are objectively better at the game are restricted from playing, there is nothing wrong with there being a foreigner only league. People might have more drive knowing they have a chance. But it's hard to say the competition will reach Korean levels with this system.
Almost every sport, and even many of the big esports are region locked to some degree. LoL, the biggest esport has a region locked system right? I think that's fine, it's fun to see how each foreigner compares to each other. And it's fine for them to all receive money for it.
The biggest problem is just that, foreigners are actually making close to what top Koreans are. Obviously they have real salaries and stuff, but certainly when comparing prize money, the Koreans have a fraction of the options. Plus, they can't get as many of those glass trophy things (tragic!)
I think almost everyone will agree that there need to be more completely global tournaments. I think it's sort of absurd for stuff like Dreamhack to be locked... I do suspect there will be some changes for 2017. At least, I hope for some.
Well nuanced post, one I agree with. Nothing wrong with foreigner only leagues, but we can't have ONLY that either.
We need more global events, not just anti-Korean ones!
Pretty much, there's no problem with foreigner only events, but there is in the disparity of events between Korea and foreigners. There's only been 4 leagues in Korea alongside a down-sized Proleague. So there's such a small incentive for people to play starcraft in Korea especially if you're a new player why try to make something of it when you have next to no opportunity.
Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague)
So really, Koreans and foreigners actually end up getting around the same or similar number of tournaments.
Oh, and as for opportunities for new Korean players, they didn't have much opportunity when the regions weren't locked because the other, stronger Koreans beat them in the qualifiers.
I'm not saying I that I don't want more global events but that what the Koreans got this year was not that bad in comparison to what the foreigners got.
Just curious, what are you counting as for the Korean tournaments besides 2 SSL, 2 GSL, and Proleague?
I personally don't consider the SSL+GSL cross-finals as a full tournament.
The WCA tournament allows Koreans as does WESG and obviously Blizzcon.
I realize that foreigners are allowed to go to all tournaments, but in practice they do not go to all GSLs, SSLs, proleague, and they're not likely to do as well as the Koreans in WCA or the WESG.
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
On August 29 2016 11:41 kaykoose wrote: I still don't understand why we couldn't simply region lock the old WCS system. That way we would still have foreigners and Koreans competing in Dreamhacks and IEMs
I'm guessing it might be a mix of money problems with ESL no longer wanting to run the regular league and/or the IEMs and Dreamhacks wanting a reason to region-lock themselves to draw in more viewers with more non-Korean players..
Which has been a dismal failure, the viewers they brought in have for 85-95% of them been offset by the people who refuse to watch the watered down system. So they're pulling the same numbers for their dreamhacks or slightly improved or in some cases (early rounds and such) worse.
Look at Dreamhack Montreal, when was the peak of the viewership? When two "faceless koreans", TRUE and Polt faced.
And that's not even mentioning the things the circuit championships are replacing, the WCS Premier League season finals, if you take that into account then viewership this year for WCS is WAAAAAAAAAAAY the fuck down.
On August 30 2016 03:40 iamkaokao wrote: yes they forced koreans out.. killed the scene in korea.. but now its honestly not so interesting to wach.. when you know thre are 100 better players locked in korea than uthermal or other top foreigns winning like snute.. its nice to see foreigns but at the cost of retiring the best players in the world is sad.. , its sure a reason why a lot of people stop watching.. since the finals are played by tier 2 or tier 3 players
WCS didn't kill the scene in Korea. Koreans not caring about SC2 killed the scene in Korea. I don't believe Koreans only had 2 seasons of GSL and SSL and a downsized proleague because Blizzard wanted it, it was because no one watches those events and they don't care about foreign viewership because they aren't advertising to them at all. I can't go out and buy a hot6 or anything like that in America.
Having Koreans flying around the world won't fix their internal problems. It just means all that money is getting thrown into a black hole and doing nothing.
This thread became a big bashing page to insult foreign pros, honestly I would just lock it.. It's really sad to read this kind of shitposting here on TL..
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
like the part where you say it sucks for the viewers is just flat out untrue, it sucks for YOU as a viewer among many others, but plenty of people I know enjoy rooting for their fellow countrymen, It's just a tradeoff really for the viewers and yes it sucks for koreans in Korea but for what it's worth in the poker world plenty of pros get locked out of good games because worse players want to make money off of even worse players than them, it just kind of allows everybody to get a piece of the pie as you guys have been saying
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
It had its peak during the finals, come on, you can stretch an argument only so far..
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
It had its peak during the finals, come on, you can stretch an argument only so far..
So? If the point was that noone wants to see Koreans, the finals would have tanked, instead it had the tournaments highest peak. Don't blame me because the numbers don't shift the argument in your favor
all I know is I was there and the crowd was cheering a LOT MORE when Scarlett was winning games than anybody else, it was not even close, also they weren't faceless koreans, even True who had pretty limited english tried his very best to talk in english during interviews, Polt has been a fan favorite among foreigners for quite a while now... he's part of the foreigners now much more than he is a faceless korean as you would say
On August 29 2016 21:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: TL has become such a den of nationalist Trump supporters since WCS change. Reading these comments are literally like watching FOX news. Make SC Great Again!
-RTS is a dying genre and it isn't because Koreans are good at the game and "steal" money from foreigners by being BETTER. -"Money is not there foreigners to catch up" You see shit like Lilbow, party life-style like Stephano, attitude like Naniwa and you blame MONEY? Scarlett trained hard and got close to Korean level, Snute has a great attitude won against Koreans, Sen with his passion tried so hard and won a tournament. People that go at this business like professionals get their due, foreign pro just don't work as hard as the Koreans. -"I can't cheer for people I can't relate to personally" This BS is are just excuses to be racist. With this argument Michael Jordan isn't one of the most recognized athlete in China, Japanese would be watching top level soccer only for Honda/Kagawa, African children wouldn't dream of being like Messi/Ronaldo.
When you see Korean players choosing not to engage TL, you can see why they get turn off by the massive amount of Trump "build the wall and make Mexico pay for it" BS that flood a once great community.
Wow... Way to politicize it... Your world view is dangerous and should be ridiculed till the end of time. See how dumb that sounds when you attack? Focus on the argument/opinion... stupid Liberal... Ha, see, doesn't help the debate. Now, back to the topic at hand.
The event felt more special (even if the Koreans were 2-0, 3-0 all competition). Something tells me, Blizzard wants that again. If I have seen Parting vs (insert Foreigner) 5 times in 2016 already and Parting is 5-0, watching the Blizzcon match has no appeal. However, if they haven't played all year, it makes the match more exciting/interesting.
TBH to me the match would still be more interesting if it was 2 top Koreans who did well all year long duking it out at Blizzcon instead of seeing for the first (and last) time in that year how top level Korean X destroys top level foreigner Y. I was never such a big fan of the foreign hope stories, tho i really appreciated people like Scarlett, Snute or Naniwa going toe to toe against the top players of SC2. But what i care most about is watching the highest possible level of skill and especially a match that isn't extremely onesided (close matches are BY FAR the most exciting thing any sport can offer).
Actually if you count the number of Korean friendly tournaments to foreigner only tournaments, the numbers go to about 7 Korean friendly and 9 foreigner only tournaments. (This includes proleague)
Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
On August 30 2016 06:39 ROOTFayth wrote: all I know is I was there and the crowd was cheering a LOT MORE when Scarlett was winning games than anybody else, it was not even close, also they weren't faceless koreans, even True who had pretty limited english tried his very best to talk in english during interviews, Polt has been a fan favorite among foreigners for quite a while now... he's part of the foreigners now much more than he is a faceless korean as you would say
I agree. People want to cheer on their home town heroes. Also, it gives people who have never watched before someone to really connect to a cheer for. I could tell someone all about Zest and his dominance, but unless they saw it and were already invested, it's gonna mean a lot less than "Root for the hometown player who's doing really well! They're cool people!"
I agree about your Korean views. I liked TRUE a lot more when he drank the champagne and then said in choppy english "I'm still thirsty... to win" It went largely unnoticed, but that sort of spontanity was really cool and made me immediately like him. The Koreans people cheered for the most were players like MC who were far more likely to do something like that.
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
Polt is one of the absolute least "faceless Koreans" you could imagine. The dude's nickname is Captain America for the love of god. >_>
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
Polt is one of the absolute least "faceless Koreans" you could imagine. The dude's nickname is Captain America for the love of god. >_>
Eh, I'd put MC just ahead of Polt and would tie Polt with Jaedong for 2nd
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
Well first, I opened teamliquid Wikipedia and counted the premier tournaments.
Ok, so I decided to look at Snute's earnings, and what I found was very interesting. All told everything that was not region locked or was an invitational accumulated about $6745. Add $2000 if you think that Homestory was a non-region locked tournament. This amount is only $8400, which isn't that much. However, another non-region locked tournament (though heavily invitationals) was the Chinese Neo star league, which netted him $22,500.
Now what I'm trying to count is the money he made in non WCS tournaments. So, what might he made if WCS wasn't region locked. If you NSL as a non-WCS tournament (which I don't believe it was), then that take off 31,245 dollars (us) which leaves him around 41,000 dollars from WCS tournaments.
Now, that may or may not be compelling with regards to Snute and his global skill level and how much he really would have made otherwise, but it does lower the amount significantly that he made over Koreans.
For other players, the disparity might be greater (Like Neeb), what I am trying to say is that Koreans often do not take part in all the online tournaments that foreigners do, and their participation in Proleague has always limited what they can participate in.
Doing a quick once over, Nerchio made about $53,000 (or so) from WCS tournaments.
Ok, now for the WCS premier prize pool so far, it's been $750,000 dollars. For the premier Korean events, it comes to 621,000 dollars.
But here's where things get strange. The WCA is not region locked, and a number of Koreans have already qualified. The same will occur for WESG as well. Blizzcon is also another event where Koreans are not locked out.
The collective prize pool for these events is $1,100,000. The collective premier events (Korean and WCS) total to around $1,371,000.
So, the prize pool of tournaments to come is almost that of all premier tournaments to date. I imagine that the Koreans should dominate and come back with the majority of that 1.1 million dollars.
Furthermore, aligulac only tracks money that has been awarded regardless of the player's participation in active tournaments. Dark, who earned $42,000, actually has $59,000, and if he wins, that number jumps to $77,000. Also keep in mind that he doesn't play in any of the other tournaments that Snute did.
Almost half of the potential prize pool is yet to be given out (for premier tournaments). So are the numbers really that bad?
Obviously, the Korean earnings did take a hit from the lock out, but at the higher levels, the numbers are not so bad. It really isn't wise to call something awful based off of earnings that do not take into account 44.5% of the total premier earnings.
If you want to say the earnings demonstrate something, do it at the end of the year.
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
Well first, I opened teamliquid Wikipedia and counted the premier tournaments.
Ok, so I decided to look at Snute's earnings, and what I found was very interesting. All told everything that was not region locked or was an invitational accumulated about $6745. Add $2000 if you think that Homestory was a non-region locked tournament. This amount is only $8400, which isn't that much. However, another non-region locked tournament (though heavily invitationals) was the Chinese Neo star league, which netted him $22,500.
Now what I'm trying to count is the money he made in non WCS tournaments. So, what might he made if WCS wasn't region locked. If you NSL as a non-WCS tournament (which I don't believe it was), then that take off 31,245 dollars (us) which leaves him around 41,000 dollars from WCS tournaments.
Now, that may or may not be compelling with regards to Snute and his global skill level and how much he really would have made otherwise, but it does lower the amount significantly that he made over Koreans.
For other players, the disparity might be greater (Like Neeb), what I am trying to say is that Koreans often do not take part in all the online tournaments that foreigners do, and their participation in Proleague has always limited what they can participate in.
Doing a quick once over, Nerchio made about $53,000 (or so) from WCS tournaments.
Ok, now for the WCS premier prize pool so far, it's been $750,000 dollars. For the premier Korean events, it comes to 621,000 dollars.
But here's where things get strange. The WCA is not region locked, and a number of Koreans have already qualified. The same will occur for WESG as well. Blizzcon is also another event where Koreans are not locked out.
The collective prize pool for these events is $1,100,000. The collective premier events (Korean and WCS) total to around $1,371,000.
So, the prize pool of tournaments to come is almost that of all premier tournaments to date. I imagine that the Koreans should dominate and come back with the majority of that 1.1 million dollars.
Furthermore, aligulac only tracks money that has been awarded regardless of the player's participation in active tournaments. Dark, who earned $42,000, actually has $59,000, and if he wins, that number jumps to $77,000. Also keep in mind that he doesn't play in any of the other tournaments that Snute did.
Almost half of the potential prize pool is yet to be given out (for premier tournaments). So are the numbers really that bad?
Obviously, the Korean earnings did take a hit from the lock out, but at the higher levels, the numbers are not so bad. It really isn't wise to call something awful based off of earnings that do not take into account 44.5% of the total premier earnings.
If you want to say the earnings demonstrate something, do it at the end of the year.
You seem to have done good research. I'm still convinced that the current WCS system isn't healthy for the Korean players, but I appreciate the well written comment.
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
On August 30 2016 11:54 Brutaxilos wrote:
On August 30 2016 08:05 Eiltonn wrote: Idk how u counted, but the allocation of money is fairly onsided
This right here is the most compelling piece of evidence. Justify WCS all you want, but it just ISN'T RIGHT that foreigners are making more than Koreans. This is such bullshit.
Well first, I opened teamliquid Wikipedia and counted the premier tournaments.
Ok, so I decided to look at Snute's earnings, and what I found was very interesting. All told everything that was not region locked or was an invitational accumulated about $6745. Add $2000 if you think that Homestory was a non-region locked tournament. This amount is only $8400, which isn't that much. However, another non-region locked tournament (though heavily invitationals) was the Chinese Neo star league, which netted him $22,500.
Now what I'm trying to count is the money he made in non WCS tournaments. So, what might he made if WCS wasn't region locked. If you NSL as a non-WCS tournament (which I don't believe it was), then that take off 31,245 dollars (us) which leaves him around 41,000 dollars from WCS tournaments.
Now, that may or may not be compelling with regards to Snute and his global skill level and how much he really would have made otherwise, but it does lower the amount significantly that he made over Koreans.
For other players, the disparity might be greater (Like Neeb), what I am trying to say is that Koreans often do not take part in all the online tournaments that foreigners do, and their participation in Proleague has always limited what they can participate in.
Doing a quick once over, Nerchio made about $53,000 (or so) from WCS tournaments.
Ok, now for the WCS premier prize pool so far, it's been $750,000 dollars. For the premier Korean events, it comes to 621,000 dollars.
But here's where things get strange. The WCA is not region locked, and a number of Koreans have already qualified. The same will occur for WESG as well. Blizzcon is also another event where Koreans are not locked out.
The collective prize pool for these events is $1,100,000. The collective premier events (Korean and WCS) total to around $1,371,000.
So, the prize pool of tournaments to come is almost that of all premier tournaments to date. I imagine that the Koreans should dominate and come back with the majority of that 1.1 million dollars.
Furthermore, aligulac only tracks money that has been awarded regardless of the player's participation in active tournaments. Dark, who earned $42,000, actually has $59,000, and if he wins, that number jumps to $77,000. Also keep in mind that he doesn't play in any of the other tournaments that Snute did.
Almost half of the potential prize pool is yet to be given out (for premier tournaments). So are the numbers really that bad?
Obviously, the Korean earnings did take a hit from the lock out, but at the higher levels, the numbers are not so bad. It really isn't wise to call something awful based off of earnings that do not take into account 44.5% of the total premier earnings.
If you want to say the earnings demonstrate something, do it at the end of the year.
You seem to have done good research. I'm still convinced that the current WCS system isn't healthy for the Korean players, but I appreciate the well written comment.
Honestly, it might not be a great or even a good thing for Starcraft 2 as a whole, but more than anything, I want to obtain as unbiased a view as possible. If Koreans are really bleeding that much money, then that isn't good for them. They definitely did not gain as much money this year. But if it turns out that Koreans gained a decent amount of money, then that needs to be said too.
On August 30 2016 06:39 ROOTFayth wrote: all I know is I was there and the crowd was cheering a LOT MORE when Scarlett was winning games than anybody else, it was not even close, also they weren't faceless koreans, even True who had pretty limited english tried his very best to talk in english during interviews, Polt has been a fan favorite among foreigners for quite a while now... he's part of the foreigners now much more than he is a faceless korean as you would say
So is this a " who can speak what language" thing when defining the tag " faceless" ?
When Usain Bolt won his 100 & 200 in a Spanish speaking country, a few weeks ago is he defined as "faceless". Does he speak Spanish or Portuguese.
It be fascinated to know who many foreigner sc2 pros speak Korean , especially from the NA continent. Are you bi lingual ?
On August 29 2016 11:41 kaykoose wrote: I still don't understand why we couldn't simply region lock the old WCS system. That way we would still have foreigners and Koreans competing in Dreamhacks and IEMs
as I understand it, DH/IEM didn't want koreans because viewership numbers were so low. I don't think it was a blizzard thing
On August 29 2016 22:44 iloveav wrote: It does feel strange that the people who financially benefit from the region lock (at the expense of the people who suffer from it) will support this system and expect everyone else to take their opinion as anywhere near objective or un-biased.
I am unsure how it will impact the popularity of SC2 in the long run, but it is still something that feels "wrong".
I'm not sure I agree with this argument. Pro players may be the ones that benefit from region lock, but they are also the people that would MOST benefit from a popular and successful game. I'm quite sure they are all pretty smart people, and know that the more SC2 is doing better, the more their careers can move forward and keep going.
Also, something we may be missing/forgetting: I'm very sure that all progamers (and casters / community people for what it matters) are very passionate about SC2. I/we are all random fans of the game, I may care about it but not at the level of someone who made it his/her career and professional occupation. I don't think anybody went into starcraft, to become a progamer, because they wanted the money (there are more stable / higher rewarding careers for sure, following more standard paths).
I'm much more inclined to listen to the opinion of someone who care about this game enough to make it its main occupation, rather than the opinion of a fan (of course I'm just a fan as well): that's why I like these interviews very much, and I think we should give progamers their credit and listen to what they say with less suspicion (I'm not saying to take everything without critical sense, but also not suspecting them to talk just to their own benefit).
p.s. about moving to korea vs moving from korea to europe/NA I see a huge difference between an accomplished progamer (like MC to name one) who moves to Europe knowing that he already earned a lot of money and that he is moving there to bring his *huge* skill and experience in a different tournament system, versus someone that moves from Europe to Korea without having prior results, and who is moving to be in a system where i can improve. Koreans don't move to Europe/NA to improve, but to compete in a different system. Foreigners would have to move to Korea to improve and, only then, reap the benefit of their improvements. It's a much higher bet, it takes much more time and it's more difficult. I see a parallel (with all the caveats) in what happens in other sports, where athletes at the end of their careers move to regions where their sport is less developed / competitive to play for a few more years: this is not *that* difficult, see rugby players from NZ/SA/AUS playing their last years in Japan. The opposite is much much much more unlikely, you almost never see a European rugby player moving to NZ to compete in their championship
Hmm, Here is my thing, Region lock "may" eventually be bad for pro players. At this point we dont really know. On the other hand, region lock "is" beneficial for them in the short run due to increased income (this is a fact that even uThermal mentions).
Also note that pro-gaming is not a 40 year career. Most Pro gamers know this thing ends in a few years anyway.
That being said, there is another thing about this that mostly "worries" me. This whole region lock wouldn't be that bad if Blizzard was not forcing everyone to play by their rules. What I mean is, since Blizzard chooses what events qualify to get points for their tournament, they can put a ton of pressure on other tournaments.
Kinda trying to be the Kespa on SC2.
EDIT: Finally, I dont have anything against uThermal. Its a system that benefits him and he mentions it openly, so I dont think I will blame him for taking advantage of that. I Do find it interesting that uTHermal mentions Nerchio wo in many forums called WCS "wealth fare" :D.
I also found uThermal's complaints about single elimination tournaments somewhat amusing, ironic, and maybe even hypocritical:
- "TRUE got lucky, he had an easier run." - The only tourney he has ever won is a single elim tourney - In the past, he has never made a deep run into WCS, IEM or DH which employs double elim format (he has problems even passing the group stages full of foreigners, while other foreigners like Snute and Lilbow can make it far)
The irony is that he likely won also because of the luck of the single elim format.
Also, such facts just don't gel with the 'tournament so stacked with Koreans, foreigners no motivation' theory either. He cites examples where he gets knocked out by top and mid-tier Koreans in the past, but that's conveniently ignoring the many opportunities he was well-positioned to go far in the past (due to the luck of the draw) but never took it. And there are plenty of foreigners going far in such stacked tourneys.
I don't doubt that players, including him, may have motivational issues when they feel like 'they don't stand a chance'. But I question as to whether the old WCS/IEM/DH tourneys really carried such a gloom and doom amongst foreigners. Maybe we need to hear more from other foreigners.
But in any case, I feel it's not the right competitive mindset for any sportsmen to have. Just do your best. Ignore the odds, as Han Solo would say. Look at Leicester City last season. If their players carried such a negative mentality, they would never have won the Premier League. But they just kept believing, fighting, and winning. Were they promised wages and sponsorship deals that would make them on par with Messi and Ronaldo if they had won? No. They just wanted to win, and win they did.
(Ultimately, the feeling I get is that uThermal got lucky with his win, and is trying to justify his win by reasons of 'not motivated before but now training harder'. Well, maybe with more wins under his belt through his 'new found motivational drive and training regime', then he has a case. Until then, we can never be sure.)
On August 30 2016 11:44 Waxangel wrote: damn TL, news some other posts already so this gets pushed off the community news list >:D
you're not the boss of us
"i'm not the boss of the customers... i'm the boss of you" + Show Spoiler +
On August 30 2016 15:09 Topdoller wrote: It be fascinated to know who many foreigner sc2 pros speak Korean , especially from the NA continent. Are you bi lingual ?
1 that i know of .. and that was a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. and he was bilingual french canadian.
learning another culture and language is brutally tough on many levels. those whose talents and drive are strong enough to handle the transition often transcend their sport.
i get a kick out of so many americans who talk about living in toronto like its an alien planet. and if they complain this much about toronto i can't imagine what they'd say about Seoul or any place where english is not the #1 language.
On August 30 2016 16:03 RKC wrote: I also found uThermal's complaints about single elimination tournaments somewhat amusing, ironic, and maybe even hypocritical:
- "TRUE got lucky, he had an easier run." - The only tourney he has ever won is a single elim tourney - In the past, he has never made a deep run into WCS, IEM or DH which employs double elim format (he has problems even passing the group stages full of foreigners, while other foreigners like Snute and Lilbow can make it far)
The irony is that he likely won also because of the luck of the single elim format.
Also, such facts just don't gel with the 'tournament so stacked with Koreans, foreigners no motivation' theory either. He cites examples where he gets knocked out by top and mid-tier Koreans in the past, but that's conveniently ignoring the many opportunities he was well-positioned to go far in the past (due to the luck of the draw) but never took it. And there are plenty of foreigners going far in such stacked tourneys.
I don't doubt that players, including him, may have motivational issues when they feel like 'they don't stand a chance'. But I question as to whether the old WCS/IEM/DH tourneys really carried such a gloom and doom amongst foreigners. Maybe we need to hear more from other foreigners.
But in any case, I feel it's not the right competitive mindset for any sportsmen to have. Just do your best. Ignore the odds, as Han Solo would say. Look at Leicester City last season. If their players carried such a negative mentality, they would never have won the Premier League. But they just kept believing, fighting, and winning. Were they promised wages and sponsorship deals that would make them on par with Messi and Ronaldo if they had won? No. They just wanted to win, and win they did.
(Ultimately, the feeling I get is that uThermal got lucky with his win, and is trying to justify his win by reasons of 'not motivated before but now training harder'. Well, maybe with more wins under his belt through his 'new found motivational drive and training regime', then he has a case. Until then, we can never be sure.)
I do think he was a bit lucky in his win (Neeb crumbling), and he really hasn't been a standout foreigner in the past. Also, I can't speak for foreign pros, but just looking at WCS America and Europe for 2014, in America 2/24 ro8 spots were Korean (those two were Canadians by the way).
In Europe, as the stronger region, they had 7/24 foreigners in the ro8. And sometimes this was due to a whole group or three quarters of a group having foreigners.
Going deeper, very few Koreans in either America or Europe lost in the ro16, and there were a number of knockouts in the ro32, but those were the outliers.
Suffice to say, as a fan, I usually expected no foreigners in America ro8 and very few foreigners in Europe. Thing is, these weren't even the highest level Koreans, but they still managed to dominate.
This is only WCS, and I don't really remember many IEMs or Dreamhacks where foreigners made that deep of a run except for outstanding performances by a few select players like Stephano, Scarlett, Snute, and Scarlett.
Actually, I just briefly read through most of the non-league tournaments in 2014, and most of the time there might be one or two foreigners in the ro8 if that. Most of the time one of those foreigners was Snute.
On August 30 2016 16:03 RKC wrote: I also found uThermal's complaints about single elimination tournaments somewhat amusing, ironic, and maybe even hypocritical:
- "TRUE got lucky, he had an easier run." - The only tourney he has ever won is a single elim tourney - In the past, he has never made a deep run into WCS, IEM or DH which employs double elim format (he has problems even passing the group stages full of foreigners, while other foreigners like Snute and Lilbow can make it far)
The irony is that he likely won also because of the luck of the single elim format.
Also, such facts just don't gel with the 'tournament so stacked with Koreans, foreigners no motivation' theory either. He cites examples where he gets knocked out by top and mid-tier Koreans in the past, but that's conveniently ignoring the many opportunities he was well-positioned to go far in the past (due to the luck of the draw) but never took it. And there are plenty of foreigners going far in such stacked tourneys.
I don't doubt that players, including him, may have motivational issues when they feel like 'they don't stand a chance'. But I question as to whether the old WCS/IEM/DH tourneys really carried such a gloom and doom amongst foreigners. Maybe we need to hear more from other foreigners.
But in any case, I feel it's not the right competitive mindset for any sportsmen to have. Just do your best. Ignore the odds, as Han Solo would say. Look at Leicester City last season. If their players carried such a negative mentality, they would never have won the Premier League. But they just kept believing, fighting, and winning. Were they promised wages and sponsorship deals that would make them on par with Messi and Ronaldo if they had won? No. They just wanted to win, and win they did.
(Ultimately, the feeling I get is that uThermal got lucky with his win, and is trying to justify his win by reasons of 'not motivated before but now training harder'. Well, maybe with more wins under his belt through his 'new found motivational drive and training regime', then he has a case. Until then, we can never be sure.)
I do think he was a bit lucky in his win (Neeb crumbling), and he really hasn't been a standout foreigner in the past. Also, I can't speak for foreign pros, but just looking at WCS America and Europe for 2014, in America 2/24 ro8 spots were Korean (those two were Canadians by the way).
In Europe, as the stronger region, they had 7/24 foreigners in the ro8. And sometimes this was due to a whole group or three quarters of a group having foreigners.
Going deeper, very few Koreans in either America or Europe lost in the ro16, and there were a number of knockouts in the ro32, but those were the outliers.
Suffice to say, as a fan, I usually expected no foreigners in America ro8 and very few foreigners in Europe. Thing is, these weren't even the highest level Koreans, but they still managed to dominate.
This is only WCS, and I don't really remember many IEMs or Dreamhacks where foreigners made that deep of a run except for outstanding performances by a few select players like Stephano, Scarlett, Snute, and Scarlett.
Actually, I just briefly read through most of the non-league tournaments in 2014, and most of the time there might be one or two foreigners in the ro8 if that. Most of the time one of those foreigners was Snute.
Koreans hard core dominated 2014.
Looking back at his results, I'm pleasantly surprised to find that he had good results against Koreans (beating jjakji, and even the mighty Mvp).Unfortunately, he's also lost to mid-tier foreigners (ToD, Welmu, Lambo, etc.). This tells me that he has potential, but has consistency issues. I still don't get the motivational issue though - when you have beaten Koreans before, why feel that you stand no chance? A mental block should only affect a foreigner who keeps getting torn apart by Korean players.
Anyway, once I got onto liquipedia, my inchy fingers got me clicking and I stumbled upon ToD. Wow! What a model professional! For WC3, he went to China and Korea to train. For SC2, he also tried Korea, but it didn't quite work out for him. I've always regarded him as both an entertaining and insightful caster, too. Maybe it's good for TL to get interviews with such old school legends!
On August 30 2016 16:03 RKC wrote: I also found uThermal's complaints about single elimination tournaments somewhat amusing, ironic, and maybe even hypocritical:
- "TRUE got lucky, he had an easier run." - The only tourney he has ever won is a single elim tourney - In the past, he has never made a deep run into WCS, IEM or DH which employs double elim format (he has problems even passing the group stages full of foreigners, while other foreigners like Snute and Lilbow can make it far)
The irony is that he likely won also because of the luck of the single elim format.
Also, such facts just don't gel with the 'tournament so stacked with Koreans, foreigners no motivation' theory either. He cites examples where he gets knocked out by top and mid-tier Koreans in the past, but that's conveniently ignoring the many opportunities he was well-positioned to go far in the past (due to the luck of the draw) but never took it. And there are plenty of foreigners going far in such stacked tourneys.
I don't doubt that players, including him, may have motivational issues when they feel like 'they don't stand a chance'. But I question as to whether the old WCS/IEM/DH tourneys really carried such a gloom and doom amongst foreigners. Maybe we need to hear more from other foreigners.
But in any case, I feel it's not the right competitive mindset for any sportsmen to have. Just do your best. Ignore the odds, as Han Solo would say. Look at Leicester City last season. If their players carried such a negative mentality, they would never have won the Premier League. But they just kept believing, fighting, and winning. Were they promised wages and sponsorship deals that would make them on par with Messi and Ronaldo if they had won? No. They just wanted to win, and win they did.
(Ultimately, the feeling I get is that uThermal got lucky with his win, and is trying to justify his win by reasons of 'not motivated before but now training harder'. Well, maybe with more wins under his belt through his 'new found motivational drive and training regime', then he has a case. Until then, we can never be sure.)
I do think he was a bit lucky in his win (Neeb crumbling), and he really hasn't been a standout foreigner in the past. Also, I can't speak for foreign pros, but just looking at WCS America and Europe for 2014, in America 2/24 ro8 spots were Korean (those two were Canadians by the way).
In Europe, as the stronger region, they had 7/24 foreigners in the ro8. And sometimes this was due to a whole group or three quarters of a group having foreigners.
Going deeper, very few Koreans in either America or Europe lost in the ro16, and there were a number of knockouts in the ro32, but those were the outliers.
Suffice to say, as a fan, I usually expected no foreigners in America ro8 and very few foreigners in Europe. Thing is, these weren't even the highest level Koreans, but they still managed to dominate.
This is only WCS, and I don't really remember many IEMs or Dreamhacks where foreigners made that deep of a run except for outstanding performances by a few select players like Stephano, Scarlett, Snute, and Scarlett.
Actually, I just briefly read through most of the non-league tournaments in 2014, and most of the time there might be one or two foreigners in the ro8 if that. Most of the time one of those foreigners was Snute.
Koreans hard core dominated 2014.
Looking back at his results, I'm pleasantly surprised to find that he had good results against Koreans (beating jjakji, and even the mighty Mvp).Unfortunately, he's also lost to mid-tier foreigners (ToD, Welmu, Lambo, etc.). This tells me that he has potential, but has consistency issues. I still don't get the motivational issue though - when you have beaten Koreans before, why feel that you stand no chance? A mental block should only affect a foreigner who keeps getting torn apart by Korean players.
Anyway, once I got onto liquipedia, my inchy fingers got me clicking and I stumbled upon ToD. Wow! What a model professional! For WC3, he went to China and Korea to train. For SC2, he also tried Korea, but it didn't quite work out for him. I've always regarded him as both an entertaining and insightful caster, too. Maybe it's good for TL to get interviews with such old school legends!
I think comparing Welmu to Tod and Lambo is a bit bad choice, as he has shown that he can hang around top foreign tier too.
On August 29 2016 23:52 HugoBallzak wrote: Used to be a uthermal fan by default for being a decent foreigner terran. Not anymore.
yeah screw them for not wanting to starve while trying to compete at starcraft right? terrible terrible human beings
So the answer to that is take the food out of another player's mouth simply because that player is from a certain country and not just find a new career?
nah because that player is getting too fat and other people are starving
hence the wcs welfare comments that we're making
the problem is that you're blinded (with racist hate?) whereas most people in this thread are just asking for more global, open events. no one is saying there's a problem with regional events, but there's a problem with telling an entire player base to fuck off from EVERY SINGLE international event because "you're too good for us", especially when you then blame it on "practice environments" which funnily enough the likes of polt, hydra, forgg and true are subject to just the same as other foreigners
honestly if you're "starving" you should just quit being a "pro" gamer because this isn't cut out for you. or just play part time or something. the scene which is supporting you is the viewers. cutting off all the best players from every single international event is going to alienate a big chunk of those viewers, who are going to stick to either watching only Korea or just stop watching. not really "fine"
if anything we'd want a bigger and bigger pie to support bigger and bigger events, but unfortunately that only comes after we get more and more viewers. having some regional events and some international events is a good compromise for most viewers. having only regional events and then only blizzcon as an international event sucks, because there are no OPEN, GLOBAL events, which SUCKS for viewers
the scene is atm too small to allow the lesser players to play the game for a living. no sense in protecting them if it means that they drag down the entire scene with them. pretty sure that viewer numbers that starcraft welfare events got this year show that
what about the players who were not watching korean stacked tourneys but enjoy foreigners tourney more, according to numbers WCS montreal seemed just fine didn't it?
You mean the WCS Montreal that had its peak viewership when 2 "Faceless Koreans" were facing each other?
It had its peak during the finals, come on, you can stretch an argument only so far..
So? If the point was that noone wants to see Koreans, the finals would have tanked, instead it had the tournaments highest peak. Don't blame me because the numbers don't shift the argument in your favor
I dont think you can use the viewers argument here. To support one side or the other. Please understand that I know people assume that viewers are what feeds esports, but its a wrong assumption.
Allow me to explain. Before we had Esports, we had tournaments and sponsors, they were just smaller, much smaller. Why? Because the scene was smaller and the interest in games was smaller. Then comes in Korea. In one country, because it had free starcraft in internet cafes it picks up as a huge thing. Then, AFTER the popularity of Starcraft is already a huge topic, TV broadcasting stations and KESPA decide to create a show from it.
Then, we got Blizzard and Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 comes out, with huge investment in marketing as the "esports" game and a lot of money is pushed into it and tournaments. That draws peoples attention and we have 8+ million copies of Wings of Liberty sold (dont forget, we already had money tournaments in BETA). Then we got around 5 million copies of HOTS sold... how many did LOTV sell again? I dont actually know, thats why I am asking.
See, in korean broodwar, there was already an interest in it from the population, in SC2, Blizzard decided that they can create that interest. Now, for those who dont know why that is a flawed approach: From any intelligent business creation, you first search for an unsatisfied need/want of the population, then create a product to satisfy that need. You dont create FIRST the product, then tell people why they need it.
Its the same situation here, and because of that, viewer counts do not matter if player base is vanishing (both pro and casual players matter here, not just the people who play in the tournament).
So yes, from the sponsors perspective, they care that viewer counts are huge, but if they have to be "unnaturally boosted", like for example region locking because "people want to see more foreigners in finals of tournaments", then you will have the adverse effect coming and viewer counts will DROP.
What the guys making the decisions are forgetting is that "people want foreigners to do well in tournament finals AGAINST KOREANS", not winning a tournament that has diluted the difficulty.We want to see foreigners overcome their struggles, not removing them all together.
Because then we cheer for the underdog, because then we feel related to the guy who struggles and perhaps can make it happen this time! (etc, etc).
As a final note, please dont forget, the world is not made of rose petals. Its hard in any area. Gaming is not much different. Being a pro-gamer is not for everyone, and even more considering that sometimes people have taken advantage of players who wanted to go pro. The way I see it, if you would play this game even if you got paid nothing, then you can risk it. But if you only do it because you get paid, you better be damn good.
Its just one cats Opinion ofc, so dont take it as a grand statement.
See, in korean broodwar, there was already an interest in it from the population, in SC2, Blizzard decided that they can create that interest. Now, for those who dont know why that is a flawed approach: From any intelligent business creation, you first search for an unsatisfied need/want of the population, then create a product to satisfy that need. You dont create FIRST the product, then tell people why they need it.
Isnt this basically what LoL did? HoN was on the rise but Riot spent fortunes shoehorning in their competitive scene, paying teams to take up LoL squads etc.
Hell look at the corporate world, you dont see a need for a product, you create a need for it.
See, in korean broodwar, there was already an interest in it from the population, in SC2, Blizzard decided that they can create that interest. Now, for those who dont know why that is a flawed approach: From any intelligent business creation, you first search for an unsatisfied need/want of the population, then create a product to satisfy that need. You dont create FIRST the product, then tell people why they need it.
Isnt this basically what LoL did? HoN was on the rise but Riot spent fortunes shoehorning in their competitive scene, paying teams to take up LoL squads etc.
Hell look at the corporate world, you dont see a need for a product, you create a need for it.
Id say there is a difference between "creating" a need and "identifying" a need. Also dont forget need and want are far different.
LoL came from Dota, Dota came from a UMS that was widely popular before any corporations moved in. CS was a mod for HF.
On August 30 2016 06:39 ROOTFayth wrote: all I know is I was there and the crowd was cheering a LOT MORE when Scarlett was winning games than anybody else, it was not even close, also they weren't faceless koreans, even True who had pretty limited english tried his very best to talk in english during interviews, Polt has been a fan favorite among foreigners for quite a while now... he's part of the foreigners now much more than he is a faceless korean as you would say
So is this a " who can speak what language" thing when defining the tag " faceless" ?
When Usain Bolt won his 100 & 200 in a Spanish speaking country, a few weeks ago is he defined as "faceless". Does he speak Spanish or Portuguese.
It be fascinated to know who many foreigner sc2 pros speak Korean , especially from the NA continent. Are you bi lingual ?
yeah Im bi lingual, and if I had ever planned on competing in SC2 in korea I would definitely have put in hours into learning their language and culture... otherwise how would they accept me?
On August 30 2016 15:09 Topdoller wrote: When Usain Bolt won his 100 & 200 in a Spanish speaking country, a few weeks ago is he defined as "faceless".
Technically Brazil's official language is Portuguese. Nothing to do with the current discussion, I just wanted to clarify your example. Please continue debating.
yeah Im bi lingual, and if I had ever planned on competing in SC2 in korea I would definitely have put in hours into learning their language and culture... otherwise how would they accept me?
Like Idra, Jinro, Scarlett, Neeb, State, and all the other foreigners who've competed there and aren't fluent in Korean lmao what do you even mean
I've wanted the current WCS format to happen and said it more than once here.
Now that I've seen it in action for almost a year I have to say, it's not something I like.
Here's the deal breaker and why I think Blizzard made it this way and why I think it doesn't work: MONEY.
Simply put, SC2 is way past it's prime as an esport, even though it's probably the most entertaining esport to watch. We went from 100k+ viewers in HotS to... what we have now.
I don't think they made the current WCS system the way it is because they cared that much about the foreign scene. I think they made it because they already moved on from SC2 and were much less invested in the game overall. Much less money were going to go in, much less viewers were expected than ever before, so in a way they're saving face here.
The whole SC2 esports scene was going to shrink a lot in 2016, but if they haven't made WCS the way it is now, the foreign scene right now would be completely dead. Koreans were going to destroy the few remaining decent tourneys and that was going to be it. Starcraft 2 is made after all by Blizzard and not some korean company.
The korean scene isn't dying, it simply has accommodation for less pro players and it is still a lot stronger than the foreign scene.
Ultimately the dev team working on the multiplayer balancing of this game is just not good enough and Blizzard overall doesn't care about the game anymore.
The King of the Hill tournaments by TB have been miles more fun than any Blizz tournament this year. It's because TB has passion for the game and puts effort into creating interesting situations so that new storylines can develop and grow. If Blizzard had the same passion for the game it wouldn't be a dying esport now, it was on the path of major growth in HotS, but it was in the hands of people who didn't care enough.
Blizzard need to get rid of whoever is running business on the esport side of SC2 and invite in people from the community, like TB, who love the game and want it to grow. It wasn't the advent of mobas that ruined SC2 esports, that's just a nice excuse. The game was just terribly mishandled by Blizzard.
yeah Im bi lingual, and if I had ever planned on competing in SC2 in korea I would definitely have put in hours into learning their language and culture... otherwise how would they accept me?
Like Idra, Jinro, Scarlett, Neeb, State, and all the other foreigners who've competed there and aren't fluent in Korean lmao what do you even mean
what are you talking about, State has been learning a lot of korean, same for Jinro I think, unsure about the others but yeah... what are you even trying to imply?
yeah Im bi lingual, and if I had ever planned on competing in SC2 in korea I would definitely have put in hours into learning their language and culture... otherwise how would they accept me?
Like Idra, Jinro, Scarlett, Neeb, State, and all the other foreigners who've competed there and aren't fluent in Korean lmao what do you even mean
what are you talking about, State has been learning a lot of korean, same for Jinro I think, unsure about the others but yeah... what are you even trying to imply?
On September 01 2016 01:30 Kaewins wrote: I've wanted the current WCS format to happen and said it more than once here.
Now that I've seen it in action for almost a year I have to say, it's not something I like.
Here's the deal breaker and why I think Blizzard made it this way and why I think it doesn't work: MONEY.
Simply put, SC2 is way past it's prime as an esport, even though it's probably the most entertaining esport to watch. We went from 100k+ viewers in HotS to... what we have now.
I don't think they made the current WCS system the way it is because they cared that much about the foreign scene. I think they made it because they already moved on from SC2 and were much less invested in the game overall. Much less money were going to go in, much less viewers were expected than ever before, so in a way they're saving face here.
The whole SC2 esports scene was going to shrink a lot in 2016, but if they haven't made WCS the way it is now, the foreign scene right now would be completely dead. Koreans were going to destroy the few remaining decent tourneys and that was going to be it. Starcraft 2 is made after all by Blizzard and not some korean company.
The korean scene isn't dying, it simply has accommodation for less pro players and it is still a lot stronger than the foreign scene.
Ultimately the dev team working on the multiplayer balancing of this game is just not good enough and Blizzard overall doesn't care about the game anymore.
The King of the Hill tournaments by TB have been miles more fun than any Blizz tournament this year. It's because TB has passion for the game and puts effort into creating interesting situations so that new storylines can develop and grow. If Blizzard had the same passion for the game it wouldn't be a dying esport now, it was on the path of major growth in HotS, but it was in the hands of people who didn't care enough.
Blizzard need to get rid of whoever is running business on the esport side of SC2 and invite in people from the community, like TB, who love the game and want it to grow. It wasn't the advent of mobas that ruined SC2 esports, that's just a nice excuse. The game was just terribly mishandled by Blizzard.
Blizzard is saving face on SC2 by investing the same or more money this year than last and by continuing to add campaign dlc along with coop dlc. How does that make sense? If they were phasing SC2 out, wouldn't it make sense for them to decrease their prize money spent or to reduce the effort on the game?
It is possible that they will slowly phase it out or are already doing it, but I don't really see any evidence currently of that happening. Also, check with aligulac, but the prize money for this year is around $2.8 million, and last year, it was $2.6 million.
As for balance, it's really your opinion versus anyone else's about whether the game is balanced or not. Some people say yes, and some people say no.
It is true that TB's koth format was more popular, but that was in part due to the fact that it is a novelty format. If blizzard held weekly koths, then it wouldn't be so new. Also, people do want to see the Korean vs foreigner story line.
Also, I want to know if the foreign scene is truly that much weaker than the Korean scene. Neeb just went 2-0 against True yesterday, and while that may not mean much, if the foreign scene was "way below" the Korean, then True should have beaten him. Also, Neeb just won A recent Olimoleague in which he had to face ryung, reality, and gumiho.
If that's not enough, look at the corsair cup results. Guru and Elazer, two of the better European zergs (but certainly not the best) consistently win against Code S level players.
It's one thing when the top foreigners are winning versus some upper/high level Koreans, but it's even more significant when the foreigners who aren't at the top are still going toe to toe with Code S level Koreans.
And as for mobas, well I can't say for certain if they influenced Starcraft's decline; but it is a fact that it became more popular during the time that Starcraft lost popularity. Obviously correlation does not equal causation, but they are both in the RTS genre, and so it makes sense that as Starcraft lost popularity and also lost its foreign scene that LoL and Dota; which retained their scene, continued to grow.
[B]what are you talking about, State has been learning a lot of korean, same for Jinro I think, unsure about the others but yeah... what are you even trying to imply?
Never seen a foreigner player who has stayed in Korea ever interview in Korean even if they were on Korean teams and for you to suggest otherwise is weird. I mean Neeb gets respect from Koreans because he can play relatively well not because he can speak Korean. The MMA's, MC's, Masa's, Polt's, Byun's, Hydra's, ForGG's aren't respected because they have decent english it's because they're actually good at the game.
[B]what are you talking about, State has been learning a lot of korean, same for Jinro I think, unsure about the others but yeah... what are you even trying to imply?
Never seen a foreigner player who has stayed in Korea ever interview in Korean even if they were on Korean teams and for you to suggest otherwise is weird. I mean Neeb gets respect from Koreans because he can play relatively well not because he can speak Korean. The MMA's, MC's, Masa's, Polt's, Byun's, Hydra's, ForGG's aren't respected because they have decent english it's because they're actually good at the game.
It's because we actually hear about them and they try to be a part of the community. There are plenty of Korean players better than them in all sorts of different periods that got far less attention and were much less memorable than these guys (btw, I wouldn't include Masa. He's foreign and lived in Canada basically all his life.) Of course, just knowing english isn't the reason, but they are good while learning and they get a lot more hype and exposure from our scene.
The SCII scene is already very niche and, as such, it's really tough to argue that suppressing its largest source of talent is good for the game. Certain (vocal) foreigners can now play the game and rely on tournaments as significant sources of income, sure. But the quality of the games in the WCS Circuit pale in comparison to those in GSL, SSL, etc. At the very least, add 1-2 offline tournaments with both Korean and foreigners competing (perhaps for some kind of blizzcon wildcard spot?).
Given the current setup, someone like Byun or sOs might not qualify for Blizzcon.. it would be a shame to see either miss out while mid-tier players like Elazer and Hydra qualify...
It's because we actually hear about them and they try to be a part of the community. There are plenty of Korean players better than them in all sorts of different periods that got far less attention and were much less memorable than these guys (btw, I wouldn't include Masa. He's foreign and lived in Canada basically all his life.) Of course, just knowing english isn't the reason, but they are good while learning and they get a lot more hype and exposure from our scene.[/QUOTE]
Competitive SC2 is dead outside of Korea professionally. Calling yourself a professional doesn't make sense when non professional and retired players from anothee country far exceed your skill. And memorable is subjective, Flash isn't outgoing but I remember his skill, some people value skill but I understand it isn't about being the best it's really about business. It's the idea of sc2 being such a difficult game we assume it should be more about skill less about business but at the end of the day it doesn't necessarily matter how good you are at the game. My main issue is the term professional being bandied about it's laughable.
I feel like unless they are more tourneys in Korea (4 a year i just not enough for the biggest SC2 talent pool) then the scene will slowely die out. No new players in Korea can make it when there are so few oppertunities. The current Koreans are just gonna end up retiring because they aren't making enough money, which seems unfair because they ARE the better players.
As far as viewership goes, suspending the best players in the world from most tournaments is a backwards idea. Foreign players have never been THAT bad, Scarlett, Polt (I count him as foreign), Snute, Bunny etc did decent in HoTS. It's just the Koreans outnumbered and outskilled them when it came to winning. And Nerchio and Neeb are looking like they could compete against Koreans easily.
But people value skill, the good players should be the ones going to Blizzcon. Screwing over 90% of Korean players (aka 90% of pros out there) to make it easier for foreigners is horrible Have NA/EU-only cups sure, but at least have global series like IEM, DH, RB etc to keep the scene living.
EDIT: TL:DR I hope Blizzard review their decisions for WCS 2017 so that Korean playes can actually afford to keep playing
Ironically Byun just won code S, no team, no team house, no coach, just one guy with a dream, skill, foreign practice partners (neeb and chinese protosses), and a puppy. But we must have all just imagined that, because so many of our best players say it's impossible to compete with these things.
On September 12 2016 06:10 onlyskillmatters wrote: Ironically Byun just won code S, no team, no team house, no coach, just one guy with a dream, skill, foreign practice partners (neeb and chinese protosses), and a puppy.
On September 12 2016 06:10 onlyskillmatters wrote: Ironically Byun just won code S, no team, no team house, no coach, just one guy with a dream, skill, foreign practice partners (neeb and chinese protosses), and a puppy. But we must have all just imagined that, because so many of our best players say it's impossible to compete with these things.
"But he's Korean, so he doesn't count and we still need to ban him" - Every WCS supporter ever
On September 12 2016 06:10 onlyskillmatters wrote: Ironically Byun just won code S, no team, no team house, no coach, just one guy with a dream, skill, foreign practice partners (neeb and chinese protosses), and a puppy.
Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
Honestly competing against Koreans in just tournaments doesn't do much for skill, can you really say that you could play like 4 games of football(soccer) against David Beckham (or who the hell ever, I don't football/soccer) and suddenly become significantly better at soccer? He'd steamroll you four times and you'd have learned nothing because you're not getting consistent practice.
I don't particularly care about Koreans competing internationally, I follow the race (Protoss, you sillies) more than anything else, but I HIGHLY doubt that playing a few games against Koreans very once in a while is going to make any scene more skillful.
That being said, I'd like it if Koreans had more chances to play in international leagues, if only because I dont wake up in time for Korean leagues and I miss it.
EDIT: Would be cool to have some sort of WCS sponsored practice league to encourage more of that, some sort of weekly league or something like Olimoleague but mini-Blizzcon with certain players from certain regions rotating weekly. Kinda like the new ShoutCraft monthly.
I dunno, ass pull idea, I really would love to see more coordinated practice between regions though.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
In 2013/14 foreigners had the ability to practice with koreans, at least the europeans.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind. P.S. Neeb goes to fucking COLLEGE and still manages to be the top Toss in the foreign scene. If a guy who has to commit 12+ hours studying every day does better than a full time gamer, its time to start thinking what's wrong.
Well if you think that something is wrong with the attitude of TLs own programer team. i suggest you apply as a coach or as a player. Must be easy for you to trash these guys since they are not trying. Come on...get off your high horse and show some love. Neeb is in some sense like Stephano. We dont see these type of players quite often. Most pro gamers i follow are really hard working from my point of view and i dont follow any korean player.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind. P.S. Neeb goes to fucking COLLEGE and still manages to be the top Toss in the foreign scene. If a guy who has to commit 12+ hours studying every day does better than a full time gamer, its time to start thinking what's wrong.
Well if you think that something is wrong with the attitude of TLs own programer team. i suggest you apply as a coach or as a player. Must be easy for you to trash these guys since they are not trying. Come on...get off your high horse and show some love. Neeb is in some sense like Stephano. We dont see these type of players quite often. Most pro gamers i follow are really hard working from my point of view and i dont follow any korean player.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind. P.S. Neeb goes to fucking COLLEGE and still manages to be the top Toss in the foreign scene. If a guy who has to commit 12+ hours studying every day does better than a full time gamer, its time to start thinking what's wrong.
Well if you think that something is wrong with the attitude of TLs own programer team. i suggest you apply as a coach or as a player. Must be easy for you to trash these guys since they are not trying. Come on...get off your high horse and show some love. Neeb is in some sense like Stephano. We dont see these type of players quite often. Most pro gamers i follow are really hard working from my point of view and i dont follow any korean player.
Deleted quote bc I don't know what kind of college neeb goes to and thus it might not be super commitment. Nevertheless, Neeb's skill level is apparent. "We don't see these type of players quite often." Exactly my point. And those are the players who win tourneys. Not welfare bred players who whine about "we deserve a chance too" Idk if Major, Whinebow, uThermal are TL players btw? There was also this super fat protoss (I don't remember his name, just that he was obese. Sorry I had to make a degrading comment). He made it sound like he was gonna win everything as soon as the koreans were gone lmao. I haven't seen him even qualify for anything yet.
New edit) I think his ID started with a D, and he fought with avilo or something on youtube. That's the most i remember him. I'll try to look him up.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind. P.S. Neeb goes to fucking COLLEGE and still manages to be the top Toss in the foreign scene. If a guy who has to commit 12+ hours studying every day does better than a full time gamer, its time to start thinking what's wrong.
Well if you think that something is wrong with the attitude of TLs own programer team. i suggest you apply as a coach or as a player. Must be easy for you to trash these guys since they are not trying. Come on...get off your high horse and show some love. Neeb is in some sense like Stephano. We dont see these type of players quite often. Most pro gamers i follow are really hard working from my point of view and i dont follow any korean player.
Wait how is Neeb like Stephano?
both are insanely talented.
also I'm sure foreigners aren't lazy and practice hard but koreans just practice harder and that's why they are better.
No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
So foreigners should shut their mouths about how Korean zergs are inferior amright? Half of foreigners say one thing while the other half says another. Its almost funny
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
So foreigners should shut their mouths about how Korean zergs are inferior amright?
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
So foreigners should shut their mouths about how Korean zergs are inferior amright?
What does that have to do with anything
1. We are improving by playing amongst each other. Koreans are too strong. We don't learn anything from playing vs them. -> so are you inferior to Koreans? 1-2. but Korean Zergs are worse than foreign Zergs -> so can we get rid of region lock? 1-3. No, because then we gonna get knocked out in Ro 32! -> so are you implying that you guys are not yet up to Korean level? 1-4. But Korean Zergs are still weaker than foreign Zergs
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
I have no idea what you are talking about, I don't think I ever asserted that Foreign Zergs were better than Korean Zergs?
EDIT: Chariosaur, I'd be willing to accept that if I actually knew the top Korean pro practice schedule compared to the top Foreign pro practice schedules, but even if foreigners practiced 1-2 hours less I'd still wager the reason they're behind is that their practice is of a lower quality.
For instance, when learning to draw you can spend 10 hours a day at it and still fucking suck because your practice isn't good (ie drawing from life/reference rather than from imagination, or drawing small details before the overall composition of an image, etc.)
Part of the argument that Koreans are good for the international scene via these tournaments is that they bring that higher quality of practice. I'm not sure if you've ever made that argument, but it's a common one and I thought I'd bring it up because why not.
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
No, koreans practice way more.
Can you say that with absolute certainty? That all Koreans practice more than all foreigners?
On September 12 2016 11:10 Zambrah wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about, I don't think I ever asserted that Foreign Zergs were better than Korean Zergs?
EDIT: Chariosaur, I'd be willing to accept that if I actually knew the top Korean pro practice schedule compared to the top Foreign pro practice schedules, but even if foreigners practiced 1-2 hours less I'd still wager the reason they're behind is that their practice is of a lower quality.
For instance, when learning to draw you can spend 10 hours a day at it and still fucking suck because your practice isn't good (ie drawing from life/reference rather than from imagination, or drawing small details before the overall composition of an image, etc.)
Part of the argument that Koreans are good for the international scene via these tournaments is that they bring that higher quality of practice. I'm not sure if you've ever made that argument, but it's a common one and I thought I'd bring it up because why not.
Also they have a team salary supporting them so they don't have to worry about expenses, and some Koreans have coaches who are dedicated to making them better.
On September 12 2016 11:10 Zambrah wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about, I don't think I ever asserted that Foreign Zergs were better than Korean Zergs?
Talking to foreign fans in general more than anyone else. You're just a really good example of one side of the foreign fandom. If uThermal is right and the Koreans are dominant to the point of just discouraging foreigners instead of being motivation to improve, then no part of the foreign scene should be 'better' than the Korean scene. (I am, of course, assuming that uThermal has become discouraged after spending countless sleepless nights trying to analyze Korean builds and replays, and reaching the salty conclusion that he can never replicate this.) If even one part of the Korean scene is equal or inferior to the foreign scene, uThermal is lying and foreigners just need to work harder to catch up. After all, it just took half a year for the Zerg race to beat Koreans!
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
No, koreans practice way more.
Can you say that with absolute certainty? That all Koreans practice more than all foreigners?
Yeah its just genetics that all Koreans are better than foreigners. Its not like Solar played 70 games a day to prep for finals.
I dunno, most of the parts of the foreign scene that have historically competed with Koreans are either hyper-talented Zergs, or people who went to train in Korea, often Protosses.
Scarlet, Naniwa, Neeb, Huk, Stephano, Snute, IdrA for instance
On September 12 2016 11:19 Zambrah wrote: I dunno, most of the parts of the foreign scene that have historically competed with Koreans are either hyper-talented Zergs, or people who went to train in Korea, often Protosses.
Scarlet, Naniwa, Neeb, Huk, Stephano, Snute, IdrA for instance
And historically, skill was the deciding factor in who got to earn big money in sports. This is new shit and it aggravates me that only 6 months or so of the region lock got people, even progamers, forgetting how dominant Koreans were, and thinking they are actually Korean status or something now. I was initially just going to shut up and wait for Blizzcon, but its way too far away and I always need to prove a point on the interwebs.
On September 12 2016 11:19 Zambrah wrote: I dunno, most of the parts of the foreign scene that have historically competed with Koreans are either hyper-talented Zergs, or people who went to train in Korea, often Protosses.
Scarlet, Naniwa, Neeb, Huk, Stephano, Snute, IdrA for instance
And historically, skill was the deciding factor in who got to earn big money in sports. This is new shit and it aggravates me that only 6 months or so of the region lock got people, even progamers, forgetting how dominant Koreans were, and thinking they are actually Korean status or something now. I was initially just going to shut up and wait for Blizzcon, but its way too far away and I always need to prove a point on the interwebs.
On September 12 2016 11:24 Zambrah wrote: Wasn't the very foundation of the argument that we're having that Koreans ARE better than Foreigners?
I'm confused as to why this is suddenly apart of this discussion
As I said, I wasn't talking to you after the initial quote. I'm sorry if you're confused. I'm just quoting you because you represent one side(Foreigners will never overcome Koreans because infrastructure) of the foreign fans.
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
No, koreans practice way more.
Can you say that with absolute certainty? That all Koreans practice more than all foreigners?
I don't know the exact practice schedules but from what I hear from foreigners they seem to lack dedication. A ton of foreigners quit due to a "lack of motivation" then we have things like lilbow not practicing for blizzcon, marinelord admitting he played more overwatch then sc2, nerchio not playing as much during HotS because he "didn't enjoy the game as much", scarlett also took a long break from sc2. Of course there are also super-hardworking guys like snute but snute seems to be more the exception amongst foreigners.
I would be VERY surprised if players with such an attitude practiced on average as much as koreans. (This is not meant as an insult, they still have probably a better attitude than most people, just compared to the koreans their attitude is lacking)
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind. P.S. Neeb goes to fucking COLLEGE and still manages to be the top Toss in the foreign scene. If a guy who has to commit 12+ hours studying every day does better than a full time gamer, its time to start thinking what's wrong.
Well if you think that something is wrong with the attitude of TLs own programer team. i suggest you apply as a coach or as a player. Must be easy for you to trash these guys since they are not trying. Come on...get off your high horse and show some love. Neeb is in some sense like Stephano. We dont see these type of players quite often. Most pro gamers i follow are really hard working from my point of view and i dont follow any korean player.
Deleted quote bc I don't know what kind of college neeb goes to and thus it might not be super commitment. Nevertheless, Neeb's skill level is apparent. "We don't see these type of players quite often." Exactly my point. And those are the players who win tourneys. Not welfare bred players who whine about "we deserve a chance too" Idk if Major, Whinebow, uThermal are TL players btw? There was also this super fat protoss (I don't remember his name, just that he was obese. Sorry I had to make a degrading comment). He made it sound like he was gonna win everything as soon as the koreans were gone lmao. I haven't seen him even qualify for anything yet.
New edit) I think his ID started with a D, and he fought with avilo or something on youtube. That's the most i remember him. I'll try to look him up.
Super edit) found him. Name is desrow.
Poor guy in the chain thinking Neeb is going to College. He graduated HS then put his schooling on hold to play SC2 and is in Korea practicing his heart out.
On September 12 2016 09:39 RCCar wrote: Progamers used to say that they fell in a slump when they practiced with Flash, they just forgot how to win- flash was that good. So was Flash avoided by everybody? No, he was constantly challenged by eberybody, to get the experience of losing vs the best Terran. When FanTaSy first entered the SKT1 team house, he said he practiced against Canata. He couldn't touch a single supply depot. FanTaSy's initial progamer goals was to kill a supply depot vs Canata. Ironic, isn't it? One of the world's finest, steamrolled to a pulp. So did FanTaSy retire out of demotivation? No. He had the fucking grit to stay in the scene, to fight, to be a star. And he became the best star that ever existed in the universe imo. There were probably countless practice partners like FanTaSy, but stayed irrelevant forever, just faded away like fireflies. Were they lazy? Not really, they just didn't have a certain "thing" necessary to be relevant. Remember what Genius said way back when? "To be the top in anything, you have to possess a certain genius." uThermal needs to reevaluate himself on whether he has the genius to prevail in an actual competitive scene. He has a bigger mouth them he should right now imo.
If Koreans were practicing with the foreigners and contributing to the scene, it wouldn't be much of an issue. The problem is that even the foreigners who have the potential and genius to shine often get crushed long before they have a chance. Fantasy having a goal to kill a supply depot is great, but that also shows something the foreign scene had no opportunity to do which is practice vs the best and be able to be supported while they grow into that top player. If Fantasy was told, okay, you get no support and go compete in GSL for your living, he'd almost certainly been unable to make it. That's what foreigners were like in the past. A foreigner could never be in a position like Fantasy as a practice partner for the world's finest because Korea won't accept them. They are forced to go their own way and survive without half the support Koreans get.
Which is now perfectly countered by Byun. And Solar(s/o to IA and Toodming). I remember whinebow saying that he didn't practice HOTS because he didn't have "good" practice partners. Great attitude. I love how foreigners are disrespected even by their own kind. P.S. Neeb goes to fucking COLLEGE and still manages to be the top Toss in the foreign scene. If a guy who has to commit 12+ hours studying every day does better than a full time gamer, its time to start thinking what's wrong.
Well if you think that something is wrong with the attitude of TLs own programer team. i suggest you apply as a coach or as a player. Must be easy for you to trash these guys since they are not trying. Come on...get off your high horse and show some love. Neeb is in some sense like Stephano. We dont see these type of players quite often. Most pro gamers i follow are really hard working from my point of view and i dont follow any korean player.
Deleted quote bc I don't know what kind of college neeb goes to and thus it might not be super commitment. Nevertheless, Neeb's skill level is apparent. "We don't see these type of players quite often." Exactly my point. And those are the players who win tourneys. Not welfare bred players who whine about "we deserve a chance too" Idk if Major, Whinebow, uThermal are TL players btw? There was also this super fat protoss (I don't remember his name, just that he was obese. Sorry I had to make a degrading comment). He made it sound like he was gonna win everything as soon as the koreans were gone lmao. I haven't seen him even qualify for anything yet.
New edit) I think his ID started with a D, and he fought with avilo or something on youtube. That's the most i remember him. I'll try to look him up.
Super edit) found him. Name is desrow.
Poor guy in the chain thinking Neeb is going to College. He graduated HS then put his schooling on hold to play SC2 and is in Korea practicing his heart out.
On September 12 2016 10:57 Zambrah wrote: No, it only works if both parties practice a great deal, but one party is not only practicing a great deal, but getting a great deal of high quality practice.
That would be just quality difference.
Yes, and this difference in practice quality, not practice quantity, is why Koreans are better at StarCraft.
No, koreans practice way more.
Can you say that with absolute certainty? That all Koreans practice more than all foreigners?
I don't know the exact practice schedules but from what I hear from foreigners they seem to lack dedication. A ton of foreigners quit due to a "lack of motivation" then we have things like lilbow not practicing for blizzcon, marinelord admitting he played more overwatch then sc2, nerchio not playing as much during HotS because he "didn't enjoy the game as much", scarlett also took a long break from sc2. Of course there are also super-hardworking guys like snute but snute seems to be more the exception amongst foreigners.
I would be VERY surprised if players with such an attitude practiced on average as much as koreans. (This is not meant as an insult, they still have probably a better attitude than most people, just compared to the koreans their attitude is lacking)
For sure, I'll agree with you on that part. I would say on average foreigners work not as hard as Koreans.
But again, for those who worked and continue to work very hard, I think infrastructure (along with money) plays a big part. Snute's worked ridiculously hard, and he hasn't broken in the top levels of Korean tournaments.
And the thing is, we've seen that players who may not have worked as hard (I don't know how hard Naniwa worked) like Stephano who have been able to reach high levels. I think that hard work (not just grinding out games but also studying replays and the like) is a very important part, but I think outside influence is still very important.
It's like an athlete who wants to go pro. Attitude and commitment is huge, but you also need a lot of other things like physio, nutrition, and coaching to really be the best. (Not to mention money)
I do not know why Koreans are so overwhelming, but absolutely coaches do play a part.
They analyse every second of games by watching'em over and over and over again, finding opponent's habitual mistakes and tendencies. Then they make and offer counter builds to their players, while scouting North Korea`s actions.
And this makes Byun so special; I believe one day non-Koreans will achieve this as well.
they're coached by whom? i often see people underestimating what thouhastmail has mentioned even if it's only a cursory or outsider look on what's happening. that's looking at every second and comparing their frame of mind to others, including yourself. that's where copying something and making it better or viable comes from. if you have a coach and the mentality of a player like this, improvement only comes as part of time.
compared to players who don't have it, it is like being light years ahead.
uThermal: ''It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player''
wow cmon this is like the attitude of a spoiled toddler im sorry to say so but its true..
''the game is too hard my opponents are too good its not fair..''
ANY competitive Korean starcraft gamer knows to become the best you have to play the best how did they become so good? Koreans will play with opponents who beat them continuously until the winning ratio shifts into their favor and than move on to a tougher opponent.
Jaedong is a great example for this he started practicing on fish server a few months ago when a lose happened he INSTANDLY asked for ''re?'' everytime he lost.. until he manage to get winning streak like against ZerO after a 4games winning streak vs ZerO Jaedong stops asking for '''re?'' he moves on to find a tougher opponent to practice with.
uThermal: ''It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player''
wow cmon this is like the attitude of a spoiled toddler im sorry to say so but its true..
''the game is too hard my opponents are too good its not fair..''
ANY competitive Korean starcraft gamer knows to become the best you have to play the best how did they become so good? Koreans will play with opponents who beat them continuously until the winning ratio shifts into their favor and than move on to a tougher opponent.
Jaedong is a great example for this he started practicing on fish server a few months ago when a lose happened he INSTANDLY asked for ''re?'' everytime he lost.. until he manage to get winning streak like against ZerO after a 4games winning streak vs ZerO Jaedong stops asking for '''re?'' he moves on to find a tougher opponent to practice with.
I believe his point was that they don't "re". They show up, collect the purse, then leave.
I believe his point was that they don't "re". They show up, collect the purse, then leave
its a tournament what does he expect!!?? growup..
what he needs to do is practice with better opponents.. is my point.
He expects that he will be able to find employment as a starcraft player and if he doesn't then he will have to move on. Then, with no foreign scene, there are no foreign tournaments.
Your comparison to Jaedong playing ladder matches isn't the same thing.
if you wanted pro-license in korea in bw kespa days you would need to travel to korea to win the courage tournament guess what?? 99% of the contestants were you guessed it KOREAN
EPT
uThermal is one of 2016's biggest breakout stars, winning IEM Shanghai to become the first foreigner Terran to win a major title in years. He's also one of the biggest beneficiaries of the drastic changes in WCS 2016. I talked to him about the pros and cons of the new, region-locked WCS, and how it could be improved going forward.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gallrMM.png)
