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On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore
Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
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On August 27 2016 09:20 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:17 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:14 Incognoto wrote:On August 27 2016 09:10 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 27 2016 09:07 Incognoto wrote:On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote:
I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime. If you're concerned about putting food on the table you'd be looking at other options than playing video games for a living. There are many more lucrative opportunities out there for talented, sharp minds. You don't get good at Starcraft without having a good head. If you really cared that much about "food on the table" you'd be doing other things. In the end, passion matters very much. Am I the only one who finds it legitimately racist when people say "generic Korean"? Why are you so limited that you need to look at players' ethnicity in order to enjoy what you're watching? I dare you to say that to Korean players, face to face: "You're just another generic Korean, so tired of seeing your face on camera, I'd rather see a white Canadian" My god some of the shit people say is so cringe worthy. nah I'm okay with Masa and he's not white, some koreans who went out of their way like other foreigners to learn the universal language that is english are also fine Oh, is that the criteria then? So you need to speak English in order to not be a generic person? That's nice, very nice. "Hey if you don't speak English you're a generic fuck who doesn't deserve to make a living playing starcraft, I am more deserving than you are for that role" Barring of course the fact that you just happened to be accidentally born in a first world country which also just happens to have English as its language. tell me more about the effort you made to learn Asian languages my god are you even thinking when you're posting this shit? It's a lot easier to convey emotion when you're not speaking through a translator. How does that in any way shape or form make a person generic? YOU can't understand them, so THEY are the ones who are generic, faceless, boring people? I'm just done with this thread
don't go, its a fascinating topic and uThermal brings up some tough issues.
On August 27 2016 09:22 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
baseball hitters are the same way. even though hitting a baseball is a 100% individual activity. the best MLB hitters all work together in teams. its the best environment to become the best hitter you can be.
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On August 27 2016 09:02 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote:
I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime. People want the best 2 players to be in the finals - Let's not pretend that anyone who decided to move to South Korea would just automatically become a top level pro - that's a huge stretch - most foreigners who have tried it did not succeed. On your perspective though: Why would you rather see generic canadian 1 vs generic canadian 2 if they are both worse than generic korean 1 and generic korean 2? Would you not rather watch the game played on a higher level?
The generalization that "everyone wants to see the highest level of competition" is false. If that were the case, nobody would cheer for their hometown players/teams if they were considered "worse", and there would be no such thing as "cheering for the underdog".
A Canadian crowd isn't going to look at Scarlett making a finals as "well the best players didn't make the finals so this is pointless to care about". Nationalism and "the unlikely hero" prove that to be false.
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On August 27 2016 09:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:02 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:26 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most. sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate. birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better. sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not. ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead. in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players.
sure, thats a individual. but you would be rather naive if you thought there wasnt anyone in the world good in their particular field of work without being surrounded by superstars.
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Probably the most forceful argument for region locking by any progamer since implementation.
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France12909 Posts
On August 27 2016 09:10 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote:
please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events? Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft
Because of BW in Korea
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On August 27 2016 09:24 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 09:02 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:26 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most. sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate. birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better. sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not. ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead. in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players. sure, thats a individual. but you would be rather naive if you thought there wasnt anyone in the world good in their particular field of work without being surrounded by superstars.
i'm talking about becoming the world #1. the first thing any coach is going to recommend is constant competition against the best. The only way to get that with proper latency and with some socializing is to head to Seoul. The only way to assimilate is to learn Korean.
If there ever is again a non-Korean world #1 Starcraft player it'll be the next guy who learns Korean, assimilates into the Korean pro gaming subculture and hangs out constantly with other guys ranked between #2 and #100 in the world.
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On August 27 2016 09:22 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in.
They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
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On August 27 2016 09:20 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:13 ROOTFayth wrote:On August 27 2016 09:10 Incognoto wrote:On August 27 2016 09:07 ROOTFayth wrote:
please let's not pretend that koreans are for some mysterious reason more talented at starcraft than foreigners, it's just not a thing, put 1000 random koreans and 1000 random foreigners in the same training environment and koreans won't have better or worse results than foreigners So then why are Koreans so much better than foreigners to the point that Blizzard decided to kick them out of international events? Please enlighten me, as someone who actually plays starcraft there's the very structured team house training regime I would assume and also they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer, probably more of those in Seoul alone than the entire rest of the world like if you throw in 10 000 koreans and 5 foreigners, odds are the #1 is going to be korean So Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world? Thats fucking hilarious. And how do you know that every dominant korean had the insane korean teamhouse practice? That wasnt the case, especially in the beginning of SC2, when alot of koreans didnt wanted that kind of treatment anymore. And most of the dominant 2015 koreans didnt live in korea for a long time. What happend there?
Seoul bigger than the rest of the world??? What are you on about?
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They really should have one or two mixed WCS events during the year before Blizzcon. I enjoy seeing foreigners only sometimes but throwing a mixed-region event in there would be cool.
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On August 27 2016 09:30 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:22 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in. They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again
Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people 
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On August 27 2016 09:30 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:24 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 09:02 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:26 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most. sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate. birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better. sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not. ya it is. and it is for so many other activities there is nothing special about Starcraft. Hitting a baseball is an individually based as Starcraft. Same applies with any one who wants to be baseball hitter in the world.. except its english and the USA instead. in fact, Ichiro Suzuki learned both English and Spanish so he could blend in and trash talk with all players. sure, thats a individual. but you would be rather naive if you thought there wasnt anyone in the world good in their particular field of work without being surrounded by superstars. i'm talking about becoming the world #1. the first thing any coach is going to recommend is constant competition against the best. The only way to get that with proper latency and with some socializing is to head to Seoul. The only way to assimilate is to learn Korean. If there ever is again a non-Korean world #1 Starcraft player it'll be the next guy who learns Korean, assimilates into the Korean pro gaming subculture and hangs out constantly with other guys ranked between #2 and #100 in the world.
well #1 is not what you initially said, you said 'a great software engineer', and thats what i replied to.
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I think one of the biggest problems in the past for foreigners were of course the skill but for must a mind problem. They gave kinda up befor the games started befor the game so they couldnt win . The one who could win had the right mindset and just played vs koreans like everyone else like snute who has a really good record vs top korean protoss
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On August 27 2016 09:36 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:30 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 09:22 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in. They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people
The best Foreigner for a year when foreigner in general arent considered good. Cool. By the way, what history? The theoretical best? Foreigner? She had her only big achievements during the red bull things. And that was Years after the GSTL thing
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On August 27 2016 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:36 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:30 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 09:22 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in. They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people The best Foreigner for a year when foreigner in general arent considered good. Cool
okay man now you're just being a dick, hit the showers plz
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I'm staying out of this. People should know what I think by now and I have no desire to be temp banned....again. I'll simply say I disagree with everything uThermal had to say and leave it at that
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On August 27 2016 09:55 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 09:49 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 09:36 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:30 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 09:22 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 09:08 Heyjoray wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Foreigner had that kind of environment many times. It just never worked out. Every team house shat its pants month after it was created. There were always disputes. And even the EG House couldnt get anything going. And after 6 years of practice, that whole practice excuse shouldnt going anymore Obviously if you're mentality isn't right you aren't going to improve. There have been plenty of foreigners that have improved from team houses (Jinro, HuK, Scarlett.) It's no coincidence that the best Koreans all train in team houses; they realize that that is the best environment for them to get practice in. They improved? When? Huk is right in the "Team House dont do alot" category. Scarlett? When? With Acer? I highy doubt that Scarlett, Bly and Nerchio buffed each other. And Jinro? Yeah sure. It takes more active time to measure how he improved. All of them got no consistency. Again Scarlett was in Korea with the Axiom-Acer house for 4-5 months in 2013, then went on to be the best foreign Zerg of the year. HuK and Jinro both were in the TL house in Korea during their time in the GSL in 2011. Read up on some history before you start correcting people The best Foreigner for a year when foreigner in general arent considered good. Cool okay man now you're just being a dick, hit the showers plz
Let me quote you again:
there's the very structured team house training regime I would assume and also they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer, probably more of those in Seoul alone than the entire rest of the world
Still funny that you think that Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world. Obviously there arent enough foreigner who tried to be progamer. Oh wait, they tried. They just couldnt make it
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wow you still think I said Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world, reading comprehension 101??
not to mention some foreigners made it and then moved on to other things, snute has made 250k I think from SC2, isn't that what you'd consider making it?
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How do you read:
"they have WAY more players aspiring to become pro gamer"
as
"Seoul is bigger than the rest of the world"
???
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United States97276 Posts
I hope they're right about getting better and do hold their own at blizzcon, at least better than a lot of people are predicting. Would be more interesting that way.
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EPT
