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On August 27 2016 08:47 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event. and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match?
A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership.
Everything else is not a "global event" per definition of blizzard and most of the people here.
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On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:38 bduddy wrote:On August 27 2016 08:34 Waxangel wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition. Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level? I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that. Most (all?) European football (soccer) leagues have restrictions on non-EU players. England and Germany don't. Spain and Italy do, but both rules have enough loopholes to drive trucks through.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga#Eligibility_of_non-EU_players
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A#Non-EU_players
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strange double post, please delete
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On August 27 2016 08:51 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:47 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event. and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership. Everything else is not a "global events"
ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
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On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses.
Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them.
What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you.
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On August 27 2016 08:53 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:51 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:47 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event. and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership. Everything else is not a "global events" ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only?
http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-wcs-details-and-requirements
Here.
WCS Points for 1st place
1500
Prize pool minimum
$50,000+ or Blizzard approval
No. of players on-site 8+
Global Stream/Broadcasting
Free 720p in English
On-Site Casters Required
Sound Dampening Required
Live Audience Required
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On August 27 2016 08:53 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses. Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them. What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you.
Because foreigners are spread out over the entire planet and every Korean pro player lives and trains in Seoul. If every foreign player moved into one city they'd get better training.
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On August 27 2016 08:55 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:53 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:51 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:47 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event. and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership. Everything else is not a "global events" ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only? http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-wcs-details-and-requirementsHere.
thats a long read, please quote the relevant information that supports your statement, i do not have time to read it all.
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On August 27 2016 08:53 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses. Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them. What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you. I mean... even I'll admit that it would be difficult to create a decent teamhouse now. But it wouldn't have been hard to do it back in 2010, when there was lots of money in foreign SC2. All of the eSF teams started from nothing and built their own teamhouses back then. There's no good reason foreign teams couldn't have done the same thing.
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On August 27 2016 08:56 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:53 DomeGetta wrote:On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea. Sorry I really hate this.. I'm so tired of hearing people say it's because of the Korean Team-houses. Those things don't just create themselves - you have to create them. What stops foreign team-houses from forming? Sure - you could go with "well..the Korean Team-houses have Koreans in them though... so they have better practice..." But oh wait - then you'd have to go back on your original point that region locking is a good thing... because if you let some fucking Koreans into your country to play - they might rub off on you. Because foreigners are spread out over the entire planet and every Korean pro player lives and trains in Seoul. If every foreign player moved into one city they'd get better training.
So again - how is keeping them all there helping the situation?
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I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
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On August 27 2016 08:57 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:55 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:53 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:51 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:47 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:
[quote]
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event. and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership. Everything else is not a "global events" ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only? http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-wcs-details-and-requirementsHere. thats a long read, please quote the relevant information that supports your statement, i do not have time to read it all.
Hello Swag_bro, I did.
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On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote:
It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks.
BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass.
It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro.
Agreed. We, as in everyone, don't really know (if foreigners got significantly better) because there hasn'nt been any direct comparison. I'm sure they're training more and are more motivated but after watching the esport for the full six years I find it hard to believe that now, all of a sudden, foreigners are (significantly) closer to Koreans in skill than before.
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On August 27 2016 08:58 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:57 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:55 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:53 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:51 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:47 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:
[quote]
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event. and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part The rules of Blizzard? The rules where it stands what actually a global event is, what it gives to the players and what technical aspects it has to match? A global event per definition used by 99% of the people here (and blizzard) is an event that is open to both WCS Circuit and WCS Korea, gives WCS points to both sides, is offline, brings over 50k prize money, is streamed in 1080p, has an on side viewership. Everything else is not a "global events" ok so where did 99% of the people find those rules about global events = offline only? http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-wcs-details-and-requirementsHere. thats a long read, please quote the relevant information that supports your statement, i do not have time to read it all. Hello Swag_bro, I did.
nope. when i tell you that you dont need milk to make mac n cheese you dont disagree with me and say the library was your source.
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On August 27 2016 08:26 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most. sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
birds of a feather flock together.
you always hang out with people who are similar to you.
if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers.
whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure you can progress and improve alone in your room and never socialize with people of similar goals. its always better to work hard than to do nothing. However, you will always progress much better if you learn the habits of other top notch people in your field.
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On August 27 2016 08:50 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense. It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
Didn't EG make a teamhouse or w/e and then (im assuming here, slap me if im wrong) - the players were lazy as shit compared to koreans and half-assed their practice compared to korean pro teams and thus ended up only subpar compared to korean pros?
What you are talking about is something that *could* exist outside korea. I expect that for the most part, players probably haven't been too keen on the idea. I expect that the players that do the best right now in the foreign scene have some of the strongest work ethic. Maybe they should talk to their sponsors if they want to try to take it to another level. But why would they want to if all they have to do is take out the B level foreigners to make a good living? 
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On August 27 2016 09:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:26 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most. sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate. birds of a feather flock together. you always hang out with people who are similar to you. if you aspire to be a great software engineer the best thing to do is to hang out with and collaborate actively and constantly with the best software engineers. whatever your goal is.. hang out with people who have similar goals. you both compete and collaborate with them to make urself better.
sure it helps. do i think its a requirement? absolutely not.
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On August 27 2016 08:57 ROOTFayth wrote:
I have no idea why people don't want diversity in tournaments, as a Canadian I'm usually rooting for whoever is from canada in a given tournament, or somebody who is in the same team etc. Maybe some people who don't play starcraft and only watch can't relate to that but I can't be the only one who finds it extremely boring when the finals of a tournament is generic korean #1 vs generic korean #2.
Also pros need money, so the fact that it's possible to make decent money for a foreigner now playing from his home is a lot more motivating than it used to be, and fuck passion seriously, passion doesn't put food on the table. Prior to this change the only way to be able to compete was to move to south korea to basically benefit of the same training regime.
People want the best 2 players to be in the finals -
Let's not pretend that anyone who decided to move to South Korea would just automatically become a top level pro - that's a huge stretch - most foreigners who have tried it did not succeed.
On your perspective though:
Why would you rather see generic canadian 1 vs generic canadian 2 if they are both worse than generic korean 1 and generic korean 2? Would you not rather watch the game played on a higher level?
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EPT
