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United States33702 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
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On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
They arent even strictly region locked.
Olympic athlets still have to reach certain perks prior to olympia to go there. Only a very small amount of the athlets goes there without the perks over national wild cards. And these wild cards are then used for the best, who might have been injured or came back to form too late by their nations.
In Olympia you find the best in each of their discipline, everywhere (expect golf this year because the best didnt want to go). But you might also find weaker athlets alongeside them. And for these guys, there are inner olympic qualifications before the fight for gold starts in alot of disciplines.
The best are not missed at olympia, they are attending and winning.
World Cup also does not really region lock, but manage the slim spots to different places in the world. EU and SA still hold more slots then their national numbers make up.
On August 27 2016 08:34 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition. Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally
Neither do we have a league in foreignerland, nore do we have foreign restrictions. The is only a single nation that is restricted.
Also we dont have a team league, we have an individual sport without any national elements. There are almost no national leagues (like EPS which dies this weekend), there are no localised events. WCS is not a localised event for an individual sport, its a world wide event that barriers out a single ethnic.
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On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
so you just mentionned the 2 most popular events in the world when it comes to sport, how is that a bad thing for starcraft?
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Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
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On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2.
But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
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On August 27 2016 08:34 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition. Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level?
I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
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On August 27 2016 08:35 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition. so you just mentionned the 2 most popular events in the world when it comes to sport, how is that a bad thing for starcraft? Because those are special events that take place once every 4 years, not year-long leagues. I think most people here liked the original, regional WCS, which was basically the World Cup of SC2. It's when it became a year-long foreigner league that people had a problem with it.
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On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events!
yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs.
nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
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On August 27 2016 08:38 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:34 Waxangel wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition. Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level? I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
Most (all?) European football (soccer) leagues have restrictions on non-EU players.
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On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously
Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
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On August 27 2016 08:38 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:34 Waxangel wrote:On August 27 2016 08:25 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open. Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc. They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition. Foreign player restrictions exist in many, many leagues internationally Where do they exist at anything approaching the top level? I don't think anyone disagrees with the mere existence of reigon-locked tournaments. People disagree with the fact that the supposed "world championship series", and all of the formerly premier weekend events, lock out the best players. No real sport does that.
Many "continental" competition.
Everybody enjoys the Six Nations even knowing that the All Blacks would probably win it every year.
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On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that.
definition isnt written in stone okay.
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As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
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LoL honestly - I think the actual headline on the story is making this turn into a rage fest more than anything. It seems to be taken out of context (I know I did take it that way) as someone making a completely ludicrous statement (If we always lose to Koreans - it's not fair and we can't get good). Obviously the more you lose to a better player - the more chance you have to study and emulate what they've done - if you only ever play mediocre players you have nothing to aspire to .
Uthermal clarified his point (which was still a bad one in my opinion) but I don't think he meant the seemingly insane notion that losing games to better players makes you worse.. or that winning games vs worse players make you better.. That's what initially sent me into orbit because it's such a completely illogical thing to say.
I think what he really meant to say was - Thanks Blizzard for creating the minor league of Starcraft - it has given me and my foreigner friends the ability to get paid to do something we love - where as before we did not have that ability.
But honestly they need to re-allocate more of the funding to Korea - so that the scene that is the "major league" can thrive - that's where the game will evolve - it's not possible in the minor league. Too many amazing Korean players with ridiculous potential are fading out because of this - and while I am happy for the foreigners who have been able to stay in pro-gaming - its just overall not a good thing for the evolution of the game - the best players should stay - the one's who can't compete or "stay motivated" should find other passions - they are just selling themselves short otherwise.
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On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay.
It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline, let alone in any way related to WCS. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
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im more interested in what the korean pros opinion is about wcs, about the fact that youre allowed to play from absolutely EVERYWHERE in the world, that it absolutely doesnt matter where you are from, unless you are korean, then im sorry, but you are banned from competing in most tournaments because you're korean
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On August 27 2016 08:46 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:41 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:39 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote:On August 27 2016 08:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Nothing new will be said in this thread that hasn't been said thousands of times over the entire last year. Wax just loves his drama.
We really needed a Global Event or two. It's the biggest shame of the WCS system that those never happened. Region locking events isn't bad, but region locking all events has been kind of frustrating from the perspective of a fan who likes both foreign and korean sc2. But Kim Phan told us there will be Global Events! yeah we had one, shoutcraft kings. and guess what, viewernumbers way higher than dreamhack or gsl or wcs. nationwars was also fucking popular. korea vs world is what ppl wanna see obviously Shoutcraft is not a global event in the Blizzard/WCS sense, don't call it that. definition isnt written in stone okay. It's an entirely different thing. It's not even held offline. Next you're telling me Olimoleague is a global event.
and where does it say an global event needs to be offline? sorry i missed that part
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2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now.
disclaimer: "you" is not uthermal, but all foreigners in general
When I read this, I feel bad. I hate it break it to you, but if you can't become as good as top Koreans when playing full-time, then you don't really have a right to be a pro gamer in the first place. Let's be real here. You don't have the work ethic, the talent, infrastructure or whatever it is that makes Korean players good and foreigners bad. They have it, you don't.
Pray tell me, what mental gymnastics do you go through that says that YOU deserve to be a pro gamer making $50k and KOREANS don't deserve that opportunity? Why do YOU deserve to be a pro gamer when Koreans are objectively better than you? Why should YOU be allowed to play the game full time in a comfortable European apartment, whereas a Korean professional who is better at the game than you are should be forced to give up on his pro gamer career and go get a shitty 9 to 5 Korean job?
The thing is, the amount of pro gamer slots is limited in the first place. So who gets those coveted pro gamer slots? Should it go to the best players? Should it instead be distributed based on regions?
Are you going to whine for me if I quit my studies to become an Age of Empires 1 pro gamer? Of course you aren't. Are you going to whine for me if I quit my studies to become a Starcraft 2 pro gamer, even though I'm a shitty diamond tier player? Of course you aren't. So why should any of us whine for you because you quit your studies to become a Starcraft 2 pro gamer, when you're unable to compete with the best players in the first place?
The thing is, in this paragraph we're taking things to the extreme. We shouldn't be. I'm painting a picture which is much darker than reality is. Honestly the WCS system isn't even that bad, however there is a severe issue with how things are unfairly slanted against Korean players.
If we were just setting aside a few tournaments and region-locking those, things would be fine. Or, you could do it the other way around and have set aside a few tournaments which are realistically still open, international events. We haven't had any of those this year. Kim Pham (Phan?) talked about grass-root tournaments for Koreans. The year is 3/4 over and so far we've seen fuck all from Blizzard, we're down to 2 GSLs a year and 2 SSLs a year, we've seen one IEM Korea which is also by the way after Blizzcon in the first place (still, any event is good, so let's be happy there's an IEM Korea at all).
I think it's fine to be happy for foreigners, but with all due respect, Korea is being treated like shit this year and I'd think it'd be better if we could have a few more OPEN and INTERNATIONAL events, where the only player requirement is that you play Starcraft 2..
#rant off
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Playing inferior competition doesn't make anyone better though
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On August 27 2016 08:43 travis wrote:
As other people have pointed out, or implied;
"if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better." is bullshit.
To get better you practice, and practice smart. Practicing more and/or smarter because you started placing higher is purely psychological.
If he wanted to frame it as a subjective opinion of how it effects his work ethic or whatever that would be fine. But he didn't. He framed it as though it was some sort of fact, which is nonsense.
It doesn't matter how well you practice when the people you lose to in the Ro32 are playing in a much better practice environment than you can get. Koreans don't have an inherent advantage, it's just that they train in team houses with coaches telling them how to improve and a definite goal (Proleague) to practice for every week, which is something that doesn't exist outside of Korea.
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EPT
