EPTuThermal sounds off on WCS "If you’re stuck in the Ro32 be…
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RedAlice
51 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:50 VHbb wrote: Hi first thanks for the interview  I write here just to express my point of view, not to reply or start a discussion (and apologies if my point doesn't come across very well, english is not my first language). The main thing I want to say is to the "foreigner pros" (it's kind of a general category  but I have the chance, since I see Nerchio uThermal, Drogo are posting here and maybe others are reading): keep it up, from a viewer perspective, this year of events has been and still is awesome!I used to watch the main events (DH, IEM, etc.) and usually I had my favorite korean to cheer for (MC since I play toss) but I almost never got to know any foreigner pros, since all of them got eliminated very early (as you say in the interview). The best moments in these tournaments for me were when one of the european / american players could get some good results and you started to see him/her as the foreign-hope (I'm thinking Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett at some point): most of the time the hope was crushed veeeery soon, as even for these stars reaching the RO4 / semifinals was most they could do. This means that I never got to be interested in minor tournaments (here I don't know most of the naming think about all the BaseTradeTV coverage of online cups, minor tournaments, etc.).Now *for me* this year this has changed quite a lot: - in major tournament I LOVE to see european players (and NA of course) being able to compete for the top spot. I don't care if the level of play is some % lower (if it really is) than 1-2 years ago, for me a tournament where someone like uThermal / Nerchio WINS it's much much more exciting and something I will remember. Why? Because I can relate much more with the players, I can listen to the interview and I see guys (and girls) which come from an environment (Europe for instance) that I know very well. When uThermal says they all sacrificed a lot (studies, time etc.) and they all try super hard and train a lot to become pros, I feel much more close to understand this and to cheer for them, than when I listen to TY/Zest/Dark or any of the Kespa Pros. Really guys keep going and congrats for the results you got so far! You showed AMAZING games and a LOT of people enjoyed watching you play! On this forum there is a very small group of people veeeery vocal about everything in an extremely negative way: I don't know if the rest of the community is close to their position (I can't know), but I do know that a lot of viewers DO enjoy the show you are putting up and the games you are playing. - during a casual week, I'm much much much more inclined to watch online tournaments or qualification brackets, or whatever ZG and Rifkin are casting, because almost every time I open TL there is some stream going on with the TOP players of this year circuit playing. Today it was Polt vs Raynor or Harstem, an other day it may be Nerchio vs Snute, or Byun (GSL play btw) vs someone else... maybe it's just my perception which is somehow skewed or wrong, but I LOVE that I can get to know these players through these weekly casts, and then I also see them compete for the top spots ad DH or in WCS. - On the same line, I think it's amazing that in this forum there is some participation of top pro players (foreigner). How awesome is it when Harstem helps you in the Protoss Strategy thread? Or when you read uThermal interview and then he answers you in the same thread :D Do you think it will EVER happen with TY/Zest/KTplayers? No it won't (I think). This (for me) makes the players much more relatable, and again when I then see them in the DH/WCS finals I know I will cheer for them. I am sorry if these thoughts are a bit disorganized and the main message doesn't come across very well, it was kind of a stream of thoughts from reading the thread The TL;DR for the foreign pros that may be reading is: awesome job, you made my personal SC2 experience much more enjoyable this year and I'm super happy all the hard work one has to put in to become professional in this game is paying off in terms of money/visibility/results/glory ( )I can't way for Blizzcon I and do really hope that some of you will make it to the last rounds, why not to the final, to challenge the Koreans!  | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me... I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015. Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system. Says you. I was perfectly happy with Starcraft up until the "faceless Koreans" crowd got their way and we got stuck with this ridiculous WCS system. If you guys can bitch until you get your way then why can't I? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16695 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:34 Nerchio wrote: - people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic Starcraft is in the same state women's hockey is in. Just different continents and different languages. The current best female goalie had to move to NA from Finland and learn how to speak english and play in the #1 women's league in the world to become hte best goalie in the world. Because she is from Finland and had to learn English and learn to exist in the special snake pit that is the NCAA though.. no one pays much notice. Could the #1 women's forward and best scorer in the world succeed at the same level if she only spoke French? i doubt it. I'm referring to Marie Poulin. She had to learn english and exist in the NCAA. it was not easy for her. her english still isn't that great. For a non-korean SC2 player to become the best they'll have to do what grrr did. Its a tough thing to do. BUt that is what world champions do in whatever sport they are in. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33360 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Starcraft is in the same state women's hockey is in. Just different continents and different languages. The best female goalie had to move to NA and learn how to speak english and play in the #1 women's league in the world. Because she is from Finland and had to learn English and learn to exist in the special snake pit that is the NCAA though.. no one pays much notice. Could the #1 women's forward and best scorer in the world succeed at the same level if she only spoke French? i doubt it. I'm referring to Marie Poulin. She had to learn english and exist in the NCAA. it was not easy for her. her english still isn't that great. For a non-korean SC2 player to become the best they'll have to do what grrr did. Its a tough thing to do. BUt that is what world champions do in whatever sport they are in. Again, no | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16695 Posts
well, when someone does it without learning Korean or assimilating themselves in the best korean leagues let me know. until then, grrr is our only example. the planet does not revolve around the english language. marie poulin, and guilliame patry all had big obstacles to overcome including culture and language on their way to becoming the best in the world. it may have meant a few brutal years for them.. .but they are champions forever. | ||
Poopi
France12795 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me... I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015. Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system. And I find it astonishing that you talk about stories and personalities and faceless Koreans. I watch basically every WCS event and Korean event. The foreigners don't just intrinsically have more interesting personalities. Actually some of them are just obnoxious and should show less attitude. But because of the gigantic language barrier you don't actually experience much personality from the Korean side at all, if any. And if those "faceless Koreans" didn't create the type of stories you were interested in or don't manage to convey all their personality through interviews that get translated back and forth 3 times, that's not really their fault. Not theirs entirely, at any rate. | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:32 ShamanElemental1 wrote: It's all bullshit, his not dumb, he knows that without Koreans , it's way easier to get money. Easier path > better results > more money. No foreign wants to really become better then a code s players, they know it's impossible. Also I really dislike bullshit, I know his a Terran player and his used to this kind of behaviour but damn so much bullshit in his words. why is it impossible, are you racist or something | ||
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sc2randomize
13 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:34 Nerchio wrote: Anyone noticed that when someone posts a reasonable post like this one - - people just decide to ignore it and keep on shitting on everything which is not korean-biased? To be honest I am probably moving away from reddit/TL after the last WCS tournament where True won because even for me things are becoming too toxic (and trust me, I don't give a single f* about stuff on the internet). As stuchiu said above, single tournaments don't mean anything. Only after a couple of tournaments we can start to discuss patterns and consistent results. True winning last tournament doesn't mean everyone else in foreignerland is shit. It also doesn't mean he is going to dominate everything from now on. If foreigners will do badly at Blizzcon it's not going to mean anything either, it's only 1 tournament. Okay, then let's respond. 1. Why wouldn't a foreign pro lie about skill levels to keep the system for longer? As we can see, it's just a case of he-said-she-said. And I've seen people do a lot worse than lie to make ~$40,000 more a year. I suppose you could argue that if it was all about the money, then you could move on to other jobs. But what other alternatives? You've spent the last 3-5 years playing video games as your main occupation. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the US, that's a big deterrent to any employer of a decent job. You could also try to go to school for another few years, but unless you have someone footing the bill, then student debts or costs of paying yourself would be prohibitively high for many. 2. No, we're not saying that you're lazing around doing *nothing* all day, but it should be noted that there is a huge gulf between doing nothing and doing the level of dedicated practice that Kespa pros do. I do acknowledge that Korea has a better infrastructure for training, with their team houses and such. However, I don't see why you cannot ask Korean pros to practice with you for just a few games a day, or figure out other ways to practice to their level. I'd like to point out the fact that Taeja almost made it to 1, almost 2 consecutive seasons of the Ro.8 in GSL while essentially teamless. 3. If you don't want to be disrespected, then call yourself out. Don't make us do it for you. If you admit that the WCS system is built to help the foreign pros get more tournament success, the community might still blast foreign tournaments as "WCS welfare" but we won't view you as a greedy and happy beneficiary of said welfare. | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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Poopi
France12795 Posts
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. | ||
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RedAlice
51 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:15 uThermal wrote: Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff : 1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest. 2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now. 3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think. Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships. It is not worth it to argue whether you've become better or not. When you include Chinese players to support your view did you realize that they are kind of victims to the current system? Not everyone has the same influence to Blizzard and with Koreans excluded the situation got worse. | ||
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sc2randomize
13 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train ^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of. | ||
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Poopi
France12795 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:12 sc2randomize wrote: ^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of. Working in an inherently worse environment won't help, you are screwed already. Sée uThermal's answer about why going to Korea for training is not such a good idea. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote: Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that. The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship Because that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament. | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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Prophanity
United States165 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote: this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train Oh please. What a reach. There's far more to it than that, or do we forget that this isn't UNICEF and there's a company trying to make a profit here? | ||
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