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France12906 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote:
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_ChampionshipBecause that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament.
He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:16 Prophanity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote:
this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train Oh please. What a reach. There's far more to it than that, or do we forget that this isn't UNICEF and there's a company trying to make a profit here?
you can make all sorts of excuses but this is how i see it
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On August 27 2016 08:12 sc2randomize wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote:
this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train ^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of.
This from my point of view is not 100% true.
If you ALWAYS loose and it's not even close, and in almost every competition you are eliminated early, you are not very motivated. The strongest motivation is when you are *almost* winning but you loose to a slightly stronger opponent.
I played many years competitive sport: there were years when my team was placed in a tournament were the opponents were outclassing us. I mean we lost 10/10 games during the season. Do you think we improved much by losing ALL games by a very large margin? no we didn't. And yes it did kill the motivation at least in part.
On the contrary when the opponents were close to our level, the field was much more competitive and we improved much more, because every game was close and we had to give our best to come out on top.
The point is: is a match is close you have to do 110% to win. If a match is very unbalanced (one player is much stronger than the other), the weaker player will be less motivated to do his absolute best, because most likely he will still loose.
This is not something "wrong", and it doesn't happen over the span of 1 game. It happens when you constantly play vs much stronger opponents, and you feel you won't win anyway.
I don't see how you cannot relate to this if you played any kind of competitive sport.
p.s. I feel to say that ANY pro player, korean or not korean, is not trying hard and is somehow "lazy" or not worth of his spot in the system, you should have some record to show. If the comment comes from an other pro I may take it seriously. If it comes from a random ladder player, it's just plain disrespectful.
I see this in sport as well (it's enough to look at the olympics thread here on TL), if you are not the best people start complaining about your performance like they could have done better.
Most people *do not have any idea* of what is behind a strong competitive performance, as it can be *participating* (not winning, mind you, just *being there* with the top).
I read the GSL RO8 LR thread and people define TY's play as "dumb" "disgusting" "lol noob"
This toxicity is ridiculous, have some respect for people that put in the hard work and the dedication to be there: they may not be perfect in their play, but all competitors deserve it. If you have to feel validated or big by despising other people, do it somewhere else.
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France12906 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
What haha. The korean structures are well suited for esport (see LoL and sc2) plus Koreans had an advantage from Broodwar, but you can't really benefit from it because of language barrier and in-house practice. Are you trolling or is that hard to understand?
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On August 27 2016 08:17 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote:
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_ChampionshipBecause that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament. He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard.
ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
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aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
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Netherlands281 Posts
motivation is bullshit anyways, if you wanna reach your goals, you need discipline. nobody in the army goes like hey guys, if you manage to do as i say ill buy a burger!
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France12906 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:20 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:17 Poopi wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote:
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_ChampionshipBecause that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament. He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard. ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think.
Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea?
Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT.
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:20 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. What haha. The korean structures are well suited for esport (see LoL and sc2) plus Koreans had an advantage from Broodwar, but you can't really benefit from it because of language barrier and in-house practice. Are you trolling or is that hard to understand?
i thought the context was motivation related since you replied to that.
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On August 27 2016 08:21 ROOTFayth wrote:
aren't the olympics sort of region locked too? Why are people upset about this
Because the Olympics are an exceptional case. The Olympics and World Cup soccer are to my knowledge the only region locked major sports tournaments in the world, almost everything else is completely open.
Tennis, Basketball, Baseball, Club Soccer, Hockey etc.
They're all open to international players. In general region locking in a competitive environment is counter to the very nature of competition.
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On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own.
no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
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whoever disagrees with this interview was either never a progamer himself or cannot comprehend how the starcraft scene worked over the last few years
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:15 QzYSc2 wrote:
enviroment is just a dumb excuse. you dont need an enviroment of hard working people to adapt a hard working mindset of your own. no man is an island. most people are the approximation of the 5 people they hang out with the most.
sorry im not an english native speaker, do elaborate.
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On August 27 2016 08:23 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:20 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:17 Poopi wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote:
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_ChampionshipBecause that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament. He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard. ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think. Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT.
The very, very few times they'll actually have to play ZvT.
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It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better.
This doesn't make any sense at all. It's hard to explain because it's nonsense.
Stephano never had this problem, even with all the Koreans. There were a load of foreigners who did well even during Korea's free reign on international events.
Foreigners aren't better now, they just don't compete with the actually good players anymore, thanks to Big Brother Blizzard, Dreamhack and IEM: looking out for white people who are entitled to protection. Gone are the days where we had international events, open to anyone, where the only common denominator needed was that you wanted to play Starcraft 2.
Starcraft 2, Legacy of the Welfare.
At least Harstem was straight up and honest about it. I swear to god every time I see this topic I get really pissed off at the piss that tournament organizers are taking at Korean players, who are only shit on for the sole fucking reason that they're good at the game. I just can't wrap my head around how this is a good thing.
Sorry for being rude but I can't read a topic like this and just be chill about it. Tournament organizers need to hear that some people are displeased with the way things are run. I love starcraft as much as the next guy, I hate it that Koreans aren't allowed to play in international, open events.
I'd not be opposed to regional tournaments, where indeed, the goal is to foster local heroes and talent. I'm fine with that. But blocking EVERY SINGLE INTERNATIONAL EVENT FROM KOREANS? Seriously? Despicable.
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On August 27 2016 08:26 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:23 Poopi wrote:On August 27 2016 08:20 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:17 Poopi wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote:
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_ChampionshipBecause that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament. He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard. ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think. Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT. The very, very few times they'll actually have to play ZvT.
Seriously. If Byun makes it to Blizzcon there'll be a grand total of 3 Terrans.
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On August 27 2016 08:19 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:12 sc2randomize wrote:On August 27 2016 08:08 QzYSc2 wrote:
this whole wcs system is basicly racism. lets ban all black people from the olympics because they're too good so we can win gold and have some motivation to actually train ^ This too. Losing should push you to work harder. If losing is killing your motivation, then you really should do some introspection and ask yourself what your motivation is really based off of. This from my point of view is not 100% true. If you ALWAYS loose and it's not even close, and in almost every competition you are eliminated early, you are not very motivated. The strongest motivation is when you are *almost* winning but you loose to a slightly stronger opponent. I played many years competitive sport: there were years when my team was placed in a tournament were the opponents were outclassing us. I mean we lost 10/10 games during the season. Do you think we improved much by losing ALL games by a very large margin? no we didn't. And yes it did kill the motivation at least in part. On the contrary when the opponents were close to our level, the field was much more competitive and we improved much more, because every game was close and we had to give our best to come out on top. The point is: is a match is close you have to do 110% to win. If a match is very unbalanced (one player is much stronger than the other), the weaker player will be less motivated to do his absolute best, because most likely he will still loose. This is not something "wrong", and it doesn't happen over the span of 1 game. It happens when you constantly play vs much stronger opponents, and you feel you won't win anyway. I don't see how you cannot relate to this if you played any kind of competitive sport.
This is true, getting stomped on 24/7 isn't the way to get better. But that isn't applicable here because there isn't an unbridgeable gap between the best foreigner and mid-tier Koreans, and likewise, there isn't an unbridgeable gap between mid and high tier Koreans (take for example, Ryung, who probably would be called mid tier for every season save this last one almost took out Byun, who is now in the semis of the GSL). So, there shouldn't ever be a point where you've beaten everyone worse than you but are horrible unfavored agains the next level of opponents. There's always someone that you can play to improve that extra 10%.
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Nice interview, what he says actually reflects what we can see as viewers, on the level of play for instance, last events have been extremely exciting and foreigners really improved in offline events. But that was actually predictable despite of what some people were saying, the new system was designed to boost foreigners, and it did.
Now for the Korean part, we actually don't know what is discussed between afreeca/KeSPA and Blizzard. For instance, the choice to only have 2 season of major leagues is not Blizzard's choice but broadcaster choice, afaik.
The fact we only had one 4 men cross final, when the other years were filed with KeSPA cups or Hot6 cups, is also a choice from Korean organizer.
Not mentioning we only had 3 rounds of Proleague, with 7 teams.
So the truth is Koreans can not sustain a tournament system that would allow the scene to be as healthy as the foreign fans would like, probably for viewers and popularity issues in Korea.
The question is : will Blizzard take a grasp on the tournament organization in Korea next year, filling the system with "foreign" money, trying to catch the international fan base, get the GSL viewers numbers on twitch closer to DH/IEM and fill the downtime with advertising aimed at foreigner audience?
or will it be just Afreeca and KeSPA deciding of the future of the Korean sc2, based on the Korean viewers numbers?
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France12906 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:27 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better. This doesn't make any sense at all. It's hard to explain because it's nonsense. Stephano never had this problem, even with all the Koreans. There were a load of foreigners who did well even during Korea's free reign on international events. Foreigners aren't better now, they just don't compete with the actually good players anymore, thanks to Big Brother Blizzard, Dreamhack and IEM: looking out for white people who are entitled to protection. Gone are the days where we had international events, open to anyone, where the only common denominator needed was that you wanted to play Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2, Legacy of the Welfare. At least Harstem was straight up and honest about it. I swear to god every time I see this topic I get really pissed off at the piss that tournament organizers are taking at Korean players, who are only shit on for the sole fucking reason that they're good at the game. I just can't wrap my head around how this is a good thing. Sorry for being rude but I can't read a topic like this and just be chill about it. Tournament organizers need to hear that some people are displeased with the way things are run. I love starcraft as much as the next guy, I hate it that Koreans aren't allowed to play in international, open events. I'd not be opposed to regional tournaments, where indeed, the goal is to foster local heroes and talent. I'm fine with that. But blocking EVERY SINGLE INTERNATIONAL EVENT FROM KOREANS? Seriously? Despicable.
Stephano is an anomaly. It's weird that he wasn't even in the GOAT top 15 because delivering that much in spite of being a foreigner in StarCraft shows how great he was.
So you can't use him.
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On August 27 2016 08:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 08:26 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:23 Poopi wrote:On August 27 2016 08:20 Elentos wrote:On August 27 2016 08:17 Poopi wrote:On August 27 2016 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 27 2016 08:10 Poopi wrote:
Why do people even bring the "TRUE shat on foreigners easy peasy" while forgetting that he lost badly to heromarine few weeks before LOL. For all we know he might have been lucky bracket wise. If you lose a bo5 to a middle of the pack foreign terran you are not shitting on foreigners even if you win a tourney after that.
The gap is closing because koreans are getting worse with their scene, unfortunately. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_ChampionshipBecause that's an easy bracket right? 3-0 Snute 3-0 Harstem (it's still not his year) 3-1 Heromarine 4-1 Polt Face it. He stomped that tournament. You can argue how meaningful that stomp actually was if you want but you can't argue the fact that he stomped that tournament. He didn't even face the best Z/P players. Polt is good but TvZ can be hard. ZvT can also be hard. Just ask all those Zergs over in Korea what they think. Aren't zergs statistically more likely to match fix in Korea? Seriously tho they'll be doing fine at Blizzcon in ZvT. The very, very few times they'll actually have to play ZvT. Seriously. If Byun makes it to Blizzcon there'll be a grand total of 3 Terrans.
Also there's a very reasonable chance TY and Dark are in the same Ro16 group at the Global Playoffs, just saying.
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EPT
