EPTOn August 27 2016 06:28 stuchiu wrote:
I disagree on everyone getting better. Some notable examples got worse.
I disagree on everyone getting better. Some notable examples got worse.
Can you name these notable examples?
uThermal sounds off on WCS "If you’re stuck in the Ro32 be…
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Can you name these notable examples? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6311 Posts
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ShamanElemental1
56 Posts
On August 27 2016 05:53 OtherWorld wrote: It seems like he falls in the trap of considering that because people have better results and are more motivated, they're automatically better. I don't think that's the case. If a kid gets consistent C+ in school and you start giving him A- only, while he hasn't improved his work, you'll get the same effect : he'll feel better, happier, but he won't be objectively better - and he surely won't see why he should try to improve now that he's getting decent marks. BlizzCon will tell us where we are as far as foreigners vs Koreans is concerned. But I've said it and I'll say it again, if foreigners as a whole take more than 3 maps from Koreans, I'll be surprised. And if they take more than 7, I'll be on my ass. It's nice to see a progamer finally talking about numbers though. 50K$/y seems like a rather comfortable sum for a SC2 pro. It's all bullshit, his not dumb, he knows that without Koreans , it's way easier to get money. Easier path > better results > more money. No foreign wants to really become better then a code s players, they know it's impossible. Also I really dislike bullshit, I know his a Terran player and his used to this kind of behaviour but damn so much bullshit in his words. | ||
Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:29 Nerchio wrote: They got worse because everyone around them got better, that's the point and just shows that the WCS system is working for foreigners I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is. | ||
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:35 stuchiu wrote: I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is. I agree with this, but I also think it's important to say - he definitely did not get worse because of the system. He got worse because the meta shifted away from what he was good at, and he was never all that good at other things, and other players (especially SortOf) getting better made it more obvious. | ||
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Miragee
8696 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
When KeSPA was sending over Flash, Rain, sOs, herO, Life, and soO the tournaments were WAY harder than they are now for a foreigner to win. Who does anyone think they're kidding? We have Koreans in WCS sure, we have Koreans in major foreign tournaments sure, but it IS NOT the same thing as it was before, the overall level of competition in these foreign events has gone WAY down. Taeja would be sweeping these tournaments just like he was before only he'd be doing it without having to go through people like Zest or Life to do it. It's a complete false equivalency to compare tournaments now from a few years ago just because X number of Koreans are playing. | ||
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive. You can't become a better player, because there are players who are better than you who don't play against you because they're from a different region (a more competitive/better region), and therefor you can never practice against them, unless you give up your life and move to Korea. The solution is to incentivize KR players to play in EU/NA ladders if they want to play in EU/NA, therefor making EU/NA as a whole more competitive, by making ladder better and making practice better. | ||
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:34 Soularion wrote: I'm pretty moderate on the whole 'foreigners have gotten better' thing. I think the system has certainly contributed to them getting better to some extent - uThermal, Neeb, Elazer, ShoWTimE were all probably going to become great foreigners regardless, but I do think that process was made more dramatic by the changes, either by making it faster or more effective. I do think they've gotten better, but nothing too ridiculous; the players who are super sick now (Nerchio, Neeb, Polt) would probably be super sick regardless, but there's a lot of moderate improvement across the board. If we didn't get more chances than in the past I would definitely be continuing my studies and right now I am full time instead. People don't realise that it was never the case that foreigners are lazy. In this infrastructure of Starcraft 2 with Kespa and everyone else there was no place for foreigners to catch up without changes to the core system. | ||
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Elentos
55593 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:37 Miragee wrote: What did I just read? So you can't become a better player because others are better than you because they put in more effort? Great attitude for someone competitive. When others are so much better than you that you feel hopeless while you lose against them, and this happens over and over again, and you make almost no money from tournaments as a progamer because the rest of the competition is so far ahead of you that catching up could take years, you start to lose motivation. Seems pretty normal to me. I wonder how much of this "improvement" is WCS and how much of it were the changes to Legacy of the Void. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:36 Soularion wrote: I agree with this, but I also think it's important to say - he definitely did not get worse because of the system. He got worse because the meta shifted away from what he was good at, and he was never all that good at other things, and other players (especially SortOf) getting better made it more obvious. Let's just not forget that there is actually no way to quantify whether they got worse or better because they aren't playing the same game anymore. Logic and rationality: Value creates wealth (being good at something creates results which creates wealth) not the other way around - results don't mean that your value has improved in this case - because the competition has been nerfed - Blizzcon will be a shining example of this. Honestly I'm surprised to hear Nerchio weigh in here - from an observers perspective he's always been the guy to push forward and persevere no matter what - no retirement talks during poor results in tournaments filled with Koreans - just always doing anything he can to get better..these guys must have started a foreigner union serving out that koolaid to say and do whatever they can to have this system last as long possible for them to rake in as much dough as possible - there's no way a guy like that is wired to believe that playing vs worse opponents is making him better rofl - I can't possibly believe it. | ||
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ShamanElemental1
56 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:35 stuchiu wrote: I'll go ahead and disagree. For all the mocking I do of Lilbow, he didn't get worse because of everyone got better (though thats part of it). His style never made it over and he lost motivation/ambition whatever it is. It's not his style , almost all dead brain Protoss players where doing 2 base immortals and 2 mass stalkers/sentry. Then the Ravager was added and he couldn't do that bullshit. I guess losing the ability to abuse something shows how skillful he was. Take the adept out and you will see a lot more players like him who are just in the game because David Kim allows it. | ||
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Jaedrik
113 Posts
What is seen and what is not seen. The effects of a policy on a special interest group vs the long term effects on everyone else. Of course uThermal has... incentive to support certain policies that improve his condition. As well do others. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
But skill is only half the equation. Playing in front of a large audience of thousands can be intimidating, and the nerves will affect their games. Giving our foreigners an opportunity to be in the forefront is huge for their success. | ||
Waxangel
United States33675 Posts
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2220 Posts
What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August. | ||
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On August 27 2016 06:48 Edpayasugo wrote: I have almost zero interest now in foreign events such as DH etc and this has been the worst year of SC2 IMO since I started watching, which I think is really sad, 2015 was probably the best year. What sucks harder is my favourite player (INno) is out of individual leagues and SPL now and basically I won't see him play until next year, it's only August. I think this is a fair argument, and we should counteract it by having three seasons of play instead of just two. It's kind of weird to see KR going back to 2-seasons when 3 worked so well, but I imagine part of it is just because of the start of LotV. If you go towards making it 3 seasons for 2017, then we'll see effectively the same korean scene, and I think you should enjoy things a lot more  | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2220 Posts
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