Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
Did i say you have to ban all koreans or something like that? I just pointed out, why european players can't be same good as korean ones.
On August 27 2016 20:14 QzYSc2 wrote:
On August 27 2016 20:07 Vindicare605 wrote:
On August 27 2016 16:10 Strelok wrote: Take 2 people of same talents, motivation and skill. Let one of them team himself. Give other experienced teachers and several teammates of approximately his level. No matter - what we are talking about - starcraft, table tenis or material arts. The first person has no chances. So why many people think - that korean players deserve to be better, then non-koreans just because "they practise harder"?
And instead we have a solution where we just BAN all members of the latter? There's a middle ground here, one that expands teamhouses in Europe and NA, but we aren't even attempting that, we're just throwing money at people without improving their practice regime while at the same time DESTROYING the careers of many Korean SC2 players.
This isn't a good solution to the problem, it just happens to be one that benefits white guys.
that whole statement from strelok was just nonsense. yeah lets have 2 people with same height, race, facial features, same education! give one guy a $100000 cheque to turbo up his life and while the other has to pay off his student loans! guess who will be more succesful.
It depends on what he will spend his $100000. He can invest into something stupid, have huge debts and make suicide. While the second guy will live his life poor, but happy, cause he never had such money )) My example what about studying and becoming better, not about having money
yes and the guy who got an experienced coach and teammates of his level could become a serial killer and murder his family. It's obvious that its better to have an advantage in some sort of way than NO advantage, but does that completely mean 'no chances'? - which you claimed
I get where Uthermal is coming from that single eliminations are just cruel.... but TRUE has gone through that and survived. the logic should work both ways. Plus it made polt look like a master league player so there's that.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
its where champions are made and pretenders are stomped. Non-Koreans just have to accept where the championship calibre starcraft culture is and assimilate.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
or you can just choose to be happy at the level of success you have and not run around pointing fingers in every direction. only 1 person can be #1.
i put every ounce of effort and all of my heart and soul into being #1 in my software engineering program. i finished 7th out of 120 students. i could've pointed fingers at my professors and TAs, pouted, moaned, bitched and whined about how the environment let me down.. blamed my mom for not giving me even $1 towards my tuition or rent or food.. blamed my coke dealer violent dad for being in jail and not providing a better example for me to follow..etc ..etc ...etc. instead, i decided to be happy with #7 and the effort i put into my pursuit of #1.
i suspect a lot of the discontent by foreigners comes from the deep down internal awareness that they are not giving it 100%. its easier to accept defeat when u put ur entire being into something and come up short.
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Indeed what it is said in the interview is *not* that foreign progamers didn't belong in the RO32 or they were better than koreans (maybe you just didn't read it). It says that competing in the current WCS system helps the foreign pros improve more than being stuck in the RO32 of DH filled with top koreans. As a consequence *maybe* now foreign pros can put up a better competition with the koreans, since they improved.
But sure it's more "cool" to just say "get better or quit" and being harsh towards people that invested their life in this game. Your "status" has to do with it, because your opinion of how the system is working is less valuable and less important than the opinion of a progamer that is playing in this system. He knows it, he knows how it's working for himself and he is expert at the game.
On August 28 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: I get where Uthermal is coming from that single eliminations are just cruel.... but TRUE has gone through that and survived. the logic should work both ways. Plus it made polt look like a master league player so there's that.
This. Tons of Korean players have lost, and lost, and lost, and then become good players without having their ego stroked by winning minor league tournaments. Why does uThermal apparently think this is impossible for foreigners?
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Indeed what it is said in the interview is *not* that foreign progamers didn't belong in the RO32 or they were better than koreans (maybe you just didn't read it). It says that competing in the current WCS system helps the foreign pros improve more than being stuck in the RO32 of DH filled with top koreans. As a consequence *maybe* now foreign pros can put up a better competition with the koreans, since they improved.
But sure it's more "cool" to just say "get better or quit" and being harsh towards people that invested their life in this game. Your "status" has to do with it, because your opinion of how the system is working is less valuable and less important than the opinion of a progamer that is playing in this system. He knows it, he knows how it's working for himself and he is expert at the game.
Surrrrre they're getting better. It's nothing to do with the fact they're not playing the best players any more and they slowly strangling the one strong area they had. No it's clearly the fact they're getting better despite having to do even less than they did
Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem.
It may sound harsh, but I think this is just totally wrong. The people he named are good players, don't get me wrong, but I'm 100 % sure that if you get back the koreans in the next tournement, all of those players will have no chance to become a champion. To become good you have to compete with the best (and beat the best) and don't boost your ego with results of tournements where just half of the professionals compete (and in my opion the worse half of the professionals).
Pretty much what I thought, if you're losing in the Ro32 against Koreans, it's probably where you belong
This comes from having played SC2 at pro level for how many years? Right..
My status has nothing to do with it, if you can't beat the person in front of you in the Ro32 regardless of whether he's Korean or not that's your level. Fact of life. Either get better at the game or quit.
Indeed what it is said in the interview is *not* that foreign progamers didn't belong in the RO32 or they were better than koreans (maybe you just didn't read it). It says that competing in the current WCS system helps the foreign pros improve more than being stuck in the RO32 of DH filled with top koreans. As a consequence *maybe* now foreign pros can put up a better competition with the koreans, since they improved.
But sure it's more "cool" to just say "get better or quit" and being harsh towards people that invested their life in this game. Your "status" has to do with it, because your opinion of how the system is working is less valuable and less important than the opinion of a progamer that is playing in this system. He knows it, he knows how it's working for himself and he is expert at the game.
Surrrrre they're getting better. It's nothing to do with the fact they're not playing the best players any more and they slowly strangling the one strong area they had. No it's clearly the fact they're getting better despite having to do even less than they did
Well you are not giving much argumentation.. It's well explained in the interview why he thinks they are getting better, and note that he's not saying: "we won premier tournaments therefore this means we got better"
he's saying "the field is more balanced, thus having a shot at winning pushes you to compete better, therefore we got better"
Anyway who should I listen to about WCS ? Progamer playing in such WCS or random TL user?
On August 28 2016 03:56 VHbb wrote: Anyway who should I listen to about WCS ? Progamer playing in such WCS or random TL user?
Jose Bautista, a baseball player, claims the umpires are all against him. I say "bullshit" to Jose and i say the umpires are fair.
I'm a random TL user and Jose Bautista is a baseball player whose future income depends upon his performance in baseball. who do you believe ? me or Jose?
On August 28 2016 03:56 VHbb wrote: Anyway who should I listen to about WCS ? Progamer playing in such WCS or random TL user?
Jose Bautista, a baseball player, claims the umpires are all against him. I say "bullshit" to Jose and the umpires are fair.
I'm a random TL user and Jose Bautista is a baseball player whose future income rides upon his performance in baseball.
who do you believe ? me or Jose?
I can differentiate between situations
If a single player claims that ALL refs are against him, I agree I would probably also think that he is not right. If multiple foreign pro players have an opinion of the WCS system (and from the interview is not as strong or as "unbalanced" as your example) I'm more inclined to believe them, rather than a SC2 fan (I don't mean to be rude with "random TL user", I'm one as well )
I don't like the reasoning that since your income / career is involved, than your opinion has to be biased. There is a level of control and trust involved, especially when the claims (such as in this interview) are not extreme. No one is saying the foreign pros are better than kespa pro players or something like that..
dozens and maybe hundreds of Blue Jay players and Blue Jays management over the decades tacitly float the "anti Canadian" bias as an excuse as to why they don't win.
does this mean there is some mysterious "anti canadian" bias? nah. they were just never good enough.
they all yap at each in other in a giant canadian echo chamber and some how convince each other they are right and there is an anti-canadian bias.
the way to be a foreign champ is to go to korea and assimilate into the top level starcraft subculture whose language of choice is korean. it is a very, very difficult thing to do.
Yes ok but your example is quite different. Nobody is saying that the SC2 ref (or Blizzard or I don't know) are biased against foreigner and that's why they didn't win. Nobody is "trying to find an excuse"..
edit: anyway it's not an interesting argument If you are convinced uThermal is lying to take advantage of a situation, I won't be the one to convince you of the opposite
it will always be more difficult for a Nigerian to become the best baseball hitter in the world because he'll have to change countries and learn a new culture while training and playing. similarly, it'll always be more difficult for a non-korean to become the best at Starcraft because they'll have to change countries and learn a new culture.
non-Koreans face a tougher road. its just the way it is. accept it and move forward.
On August 27 2016 06:04 DomeGetta wrote: Wow - sorry but can't disagree with this more. To make the argument that lowering the bar for competition makes players better is altruistic delusion. I can understand the point of no Koreans makes for more motivation which can lead to more practice and getting better -but then let's put the blame on the individuals who are actually responsible for you not getting better (you!) not the better players who are knocking you out of tournaments via their hard work and dedication - I can't think of a single example where nerfing competition has actually produced a stronger evolution in any facet of reality. We should just be open and honest about the situation and call the current WCS what it is - the B league - and the salaries and prize pools should scale down with it. It's ridiculous how many pro Kr players who have put in insane hours and work over the last 5 years have been forced into retirement because we've decided to create the WCS welfare program. Sorry for you guys..but since you, just like the rest of the WCS field - can't compete with the best in Korea - you're sol..but for the rest of the world we're going to glorify you and have you make a living off it. Of course what Harstem said pissed all of them off - but at least he had the balls to be honest - and my respect for him has grown tremendously based on that - it's not easy to admit something to the public that has the potential to negatively influence you financially - huge props to him for understanding the difference between wealth and value - that type of mentality will help him for the rest of his life in whatever endeavors he decides to take on.
lol honestly the more I read this I can't help but feel the interviewer was setting him up - like even the headline!? "if you lose to koreans...you can't get bettter...!" I feel like if he re-read that statement even one time he'd have been like... wait a minute.. that sounds absolutely fucking insane.. please don't post that! LOL what planet is this??!
To the person earlier in the thread who said "environment doesn't matter" (re: motivation) - either he's never had a real job, or he's some kind of super genius LOL
EPT
