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On August 28 2016 17:53 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote:
These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't.
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested.
also, dont say dumb argument when your entire argument is based of assumption and speculation. sc2 is a decline, yes. but good luck proving its because the koreans didnt say 'oh i am very happy to have won' or do a breakdance after they won the finals.
Faceless Koreans are a myth. Watch some of the Starleague and Proleague pre-shows. They look like they're having fun (even if I don't understand what they're saying). Rogue is funny, Dark has arrogance, the running joke about Byun not showering, etc. It's just that foreign tourneys don't dig deep enough to find these storylines, I feel. They focus on foreigners, because it's easier.
(this post is directed more to dizzy's post, just to be clear)
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WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
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I can't believe "Faceless Koreans" is still a thing here, figured it would have become a banworthy meme by now.
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new.
im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
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On August 28 2016 17:49 True_Spike wrote:
I think that people becoming better due to the level of competition being lower (which is basically implied) is a fallacy. I'd be completely fine with WCS staying the way it is if Koreans had WAY more tournaments to play at. The way it is now the best players in the world sit around doing nothing for most of the year.
While it is true that you can't become better as easily if everyone is worse or if they don't have the potential, I think that if everyone was way better, then you wouldn't improve very much.
Since we've been talking about sports, say for example you are in soccer. Your team is comprised of some of the best people from your city. Your league is an open one, so international teams can enter. Those teams consistently beat you by more than five goals.
If you are on this team, are you motivated? Will you improve?
Koreans and foreigners in the same tournament looks a little similar to this. While the top foreigners can sometimes win, the vast majority of the time, the top Koreans win (and they make it look easy).
There's a reason why we began seeing fewer and fewer foreigners in the Ro8 and Ro16 of WCS America and Europe.
As for the lack of tournaments, yeah it would be nice to see them there, though I would say that the top Koreans really are busy throughout the year with GSL, SSL, and proleague.
Of note,
Koreans can and do participate in:
Olimoleague
Douyu Cup
Corsair Cup
Leifeng Cup
So, the big competitions are not out there, but the weekly, bi-weekly, and monthly are out there.
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I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time.
The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on.
I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments.
I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
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And what someone here mentioned - the fact that WCS is no longer a standalone tournament (and is just added on top of DH, IEMs etc.) is not something I like very much, although I understand why that is the case.
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On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason.
Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot.
Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International.
Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying, that DH and IEM should be open, and that Korea needs more tournaments, made you so angry.
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry.
WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
User was warned for this post
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On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid.
I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS.
Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion.
i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings.
i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen:
1) they are too good
2) they have no personality (faceless)
3) koreans have infrastructure
i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
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On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote:
I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time.
The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on.
I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments.
I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment.
That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are.
On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid.
I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself.
Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 18:54 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote:
I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time.
The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on.
I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments.
I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment. That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are. Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid. I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself. Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure).
yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer.
an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument?
and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
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On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason )
Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not.
Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason".
Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there.
Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas).
Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
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On August 28 2016 19:04 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:54 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote:
I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time.
The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on.
I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments.
I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment. That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are. On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid. I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself. Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure). yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument? and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'.
So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS?
What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 19:13 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not. Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason". Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there. Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas). Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore.
you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championship
please explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR.
please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not.
so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 19:23 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 19:04 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:54 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 28 2016 18:21 VormannLeiss wrote:
I wanna share a little story, which happend exactly 10 years ago in Broodwar. My brother - Dashwriter - qualified for the WCG 2006 as one of the three spots for Germany. The scene in Germany was pretty stacked back than with players like Mondragon, Fisheye, iNfernal and others. My brother trained like a mad man to be able to qualify for WCG main event just once in his career. After qualifying he trained even harder, because he wanted to show good results in Monza. He finished the group stage as second and moved on to the single elimination tournament, where he played JulyZerg in the first round. He lost 0-2, but my brother asked for a third game just for fun. He also lost this game, but he told me in the third game he had a small glimpse of hope, that he could win. For him this event was a once in a lifetime experience. He was doing his national service back then, so he had the time to play a lot the game he already played for 8 years at this point. It wasn't his career or anything - he did all of it in his free time.
The difference in skill between my brother and JulyZerg was so tremendously high, because of all the infrastructure the Koreans had - the money, the tournaments, the training and so on.
I know 10 years has passed since this events and its a different game that is played today. But I think that the foreign scene is still behind in infrastructure to compete with the experience of Korean eSports environments.
I'm really looking forward to Blizzcon, but I won't be to sad if the difference is still big - it was only one year and I definitely think that the Foreigners can reach the level of the best Koreans, if they can build up a good training environment. That's really neat. Thanks for sharing that story. I too am also looking forward to Blizzcon. Yes, the Koreans are probably going to win, but it'll be nice to see the top 8 of each region go against each other and see how far apart they are. On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) What you said was "WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason," and then you proceeded to call the poster in question stupid. I would actually like to hear your arguments for each one of them as I have yet to hear an effective argument as to why Koreans should be allowed in the WCS tournament system itself. Dreamhacks/IEMs, yes, but WCS itself. Also, I would like to hear your opinion on the topic of money and foreigners (though this does have to do with infrastructure). yes, twice. apparently the 2nd time was the nail in the coffin and he couldnt discuss any longer. an effective argument for why they should be allowed? because it's 2016 and we shouldnt be racist anymore. Whats YOUR argument? and i dont know what you're asking specifically about 'topic of money and foreigners'. So that is your answer to the three arguments that people have put up supporting WCS? What I mean is, what is your response to the idea that the foreign scene needs more money in order to grow competitively?
i dont feel like responding seriously to someone who hasnt even given me his own stance yet on the topic with arguments and then requesting an significant amount of time and thought of my own, you know, just incase of trolls.
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On August 28 2016 19:25 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 19:13 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not. Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason". Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there. Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas). Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore. you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championshipplease explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS
As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL.
Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
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Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 19:32 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 19:25 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 19:13 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not. Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason". Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there. Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas). Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore. you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championshipplease explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL. Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too.
thats the difference, people can live in america, fly just to korea to compete in GSL without applying for korean citizenship and go home. Thus your argument is invalid.
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On August 28 2016 19:34 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2016 19:32 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 19:25 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 19:13 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:43 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:37 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:30 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:23 Musicus wrote:On August 28 2016 18:06 QzYSc2 wrote:On August 28 2016 18:00 Musicus wrote:
WCS being (kinda) region locked is fine and good imo, it just sucks that WCS swallowed up IEM and DH. They should've stayed open tournaments and we also need more tournaments in Korea.
But that's kinda off-topic and I'm pretty sure uThermal agrees with this, he will be more sad than most that Maru won't be at BlizzCon, so I don't see why people are shitting on him. Foreigners did indeed improve this year. I'm just not sure if this trend will keep going or if it's just a short term occurrence due to LotV still being new. im sure he will weep for maru with his $$$ bills. whats next, ban chinese teams from DOTA and korean teams (MVP) because they have no personality! (they just won the international). I always thought sc2 players were more intelligent people than MOBA players but this thread clearly proves the opposite. WCS supporters, you are stupid beyond reason. Of course I support WCS, it's how Blizzatd supports the scene and sc2 would not be doing as well as it is without WCS. I still think it has to be improved and dislike this year's system a lot. Still it's not as bad as you make it out to be, I don't think they reserve half of the spots for a single country at the International. Anyway, I'm not sure what about me saying that DH and IEM should be open and that Korea needs more tournaments made you so angry. WCS =/= supporting sc2. its a tournament format. MONEY supports the scene. you can spend money differently, in different formats tournaments. The fact that you're okayish with region locking WCS tournaments specifically against 1 country simply because they are better at the game is why you're stupid. I already told you that I dislike the current system = yes I want them to spend the money differently. But any WCS is better than no WCS. Well I'm done talking to you, work on your manners before you try to have a dicussion. i'll refrain from calling your statements stupid if that hurt your feelings. i dont know your motive for supporting region locking korea specifically, but so far ive seen: 1) they are too good 2) they have no personality (faceless) 3) koreans have infrastructure i can give an argument for any of them, please pick one. ( or make up your own argument, you havent given me one yet, just simply said ban koreans without a reason ) Okay, if we can talk like normal people why not. Firstly you should point out where I "simply said ban koreans without a reason". Secondly the only legion rock I am fine with, is a soft region lock, where a person lives and practices in the region he competes in, just as any foreigner that played in GSL lived and practiced there. Imo WCS should be long ongoing leagues again just as GSL and IEMs, DHs and any other international tournament should be open for anybody. We need enough money and tournaments in Korea that most Koreans won't even think about going abroad to play in WCS, unless they are past their prime maybe (just as when Allen Iverson left the NBA to go play overseas). Sadly it's hard to have that much money and tournaments in Korea, since sc2 just isn't that popular there anymore. you said region locking is okay'ish. without a reason. so that means you said banning koreans is okay ish, without providing further reasoning. i hope that clarifies it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Summer_Circuit_Championshipplease explain to me where the KR qualifiers are. Every significant existing sc2 scene has a qualifier except KR. please explain why Polish players, French players, Dutch players, Chinese players, can play in an AMERICAN tournament, if you have to 'live and practise in the region he competes in', and why SPECIFICALLY KOREANS not. so by your logic, WCS summer circuit championships would have only AMERICANS As I already said, I don't like this year's WCS, I would definitely like to WCS EU and AM back. Also add a WCS Asia region (China, Taiwan etc.), while WCS Korea is GSL/SSL. Where is the German qualifier in GSL? It's an offline qualifer, so basically a Korean qualifer where you have to live there to compete in it, which is absolutely fine imo. Should just be the same for WCS then too. thats the difference, people can live in america, fly just to korea to compete in GSL without applying for korean citizenship and go home. Thus your argument is invalid.
But back then it was an open online qualifier for WCS, so that was also way easier to take part in than to fly to NA or EU and play offline. Not sure if that many Korean teams could've afforded that trip and would've been willing to send their players. While possible, no foreigner ever just flew to Korea, played the qualfier and flew back, in practice they all committed to living there. Although there was a time when there were seeds for foreigners, which was stupid, but it was what the Koreans wanted and Koreans also got seeds to MLG and stuff in return.
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EPT
