EPTuThermal beat Solar and lost to TRUE
Scarlett beat Byun (GSL semifinalist) and lost to Gumiho
Bly lost to Patience but Neeb beat Patience
Sure sure it's a single map, but still to beat these players you have to be at their level..
uThermal sounds off on WCS "If you’re stuck in the Ro32 be…
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VHbb
692 Posts
uThermal beat Solar and lost to TRUE Scarlett beat Byun (GSL semifinalist) and lost to Gumiho Bly lost to Patience but Neeb beat Patience Sure sure it's a single map, but still to beat these players you have to be at their level.. | ||
munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On August 28 2016 05:07 VHbb wrote: Btw they are playing ShoutCraft, I don't see this korean dominance.. uThermal beat Solar and lost to TRUE Scarlett beat Byun (GSL semifinalist) and lost to Gumiho Bly lost to Patience but Neeb beat Patience Sure sure it's a single map, but still to beat these players you have to be at their level.. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gallrMM.png) | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2633 Posts
On August 27 2016 07:49 rast wrote: The amount of hate towards "foreigner" players in such thread is astonishing to me... I enjoy stories and personalities in current WCS system 100% more than faceless Koreans winning random tournament of 2014/2015. Everyone has their preferences and debates such as this is 100% pointless IMHO. It's a pitchfork fight. Lets just enjoy new Blizzcon, the game is as enjoyable as ever if not more, anyone who claims otherwise most probably either should look for another hobby or will find a reason to complain in any system. Who's a faceless Korean? Jesus Christ. Koreans show just as much personality as any other foreigner player. It's just people like you who won't even give them a freaking chance to watch them. Parting, Rogue, herO, MC, Maru, Innovation etc. are ALL the same boring personality to you? | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 27 2016 15:53 Incognoto wrote: Just checked the thread for kicks and saw this. So classy. Why don't you just leave the game, seriously? Or are you constrained to play Starcraft 2 and have no other way to "win the bread"? Why not just learn Korean?! It's just as easy as learning French and English at the same time? lol :/ Really fayth, you're the epitome of everything wrong with foreigners in Starcraft. No results, racist against Koreans, bad at the game but also terrible conceited attitude. yeah I'm sorry I used the word dead, dying would be more appropriate here, not sure why you are taking this out of context to make me look bad, I say things how they are, if you want to put your head in the sand by all means do it also I'm not racist, saying things like foreigners can't possibly compete with koreans however is pretty racist edit: also can someone explain to me how exactly are they banned? WCS montreal had Violet, Polt, True and Hydra.... am I missing something? | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 28 2016 09:06 ROOTFayth wrote: yeah I'm sorry I used the word dead, dying would be more appropriate here, not sure why you are taking this out of context to make me look bad, I say things how they are, if you want to put your head in the sand by all means do it also I'm not racist, saying things like foreigners can't possibly compete with koreans however is pretty racist edit: also can someone explain to me how exactly are they banned? WCS montreal had Violet, Polt, True and Hydra.... am I missing something? Koreans cannot participate from their region in the qualifiers. If they obtain visas they can play from other countries, but I believe they also have to reside in the region in which they are qualifying and/or have a passport/visa. So, if they move to EU/NA/SEA etc., they can play in WCS, but it means that no Koreans from their region can compete in the WCS circuit tournaments. On August 28 2016 08:32 Brutaxilos wrote: Who's a faceless Korean? Jesus Christ. Koreans show just as much personality as any other foreigner player. It's just people like you who won't even give them a freaking chance to watch them. Parting, Rogue, herO, MC, Maru, Innovation etc. are ALL the same boring personality to you? Although not conveyed the best, it is easier to get a sense of the foreigner stories because they compete in primarily english tournaments that interview players (for the most part) in english. Also, we've just seen a lot more of some of the foreigners through twitter, teamliquid, or the WCS throughout 2014/2015/2016 that we don't really know the Koreans as well. It is obvious that the Koreans do in fact have personalities, but since they never competed in most of the WCS tournaments and they don't speak the same language, some people (myself included) don't know their stories as well as NA/EU foreigners. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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H0bgawblin
United States109 Posts
At a certain point, people at a certain age can't just play a game for funsies and compete at an international level. I do think the ultimate test of merit is to pull what Stephano did and win out over koreans, but we don't get there if we don't invest in the infrastructure of our e-sports. You want amazing and relevant foreigners? They need to make a freaking living. Competitive spirit does not get you the best coaches, practice partners, food, and housing; money and visibility do. Talent is a matter of passion and persistence. One cannot persist if one cannot afford to exist. Not to mention, any financial or professional thought and energy spent on things outside the skill you are seeking to develop puts you at an inherent disadvantage. Energy and will power are finite. If a foreigner couldn't make money to sustain a decent existence, they would absolutely seek to divide their time, thought, and energy into future prospects because these are people trying to live their lives and it doesn't take long for them to figure out being super ultra mega broke is not a long term strategy. | ||
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KrOmander
United Kingdom78 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 28 2016 10:15 KrOmander wrote: Personally I haven't been interested in the Sc2 pro scene since like 2013/14, but I was always frustrated that some of the more ambitious and hardworking foreigners was not nurtured into the Korea scene by the prominent foreign owned teams and for it to be taken more seriously in general. My lasting memory of the Sc2 foreign pro scene lies with team EG running what looked like some type of frat house in the states where some of the higher earning Sc2 players resided smashing amateurs on NA ladder and meanwhile there wasn't any representation in Code S or A from outside Korea. The style of management definitely in Korea was not established in NA/EU during SC2's early years. But, I also wonder if the Koreans moving into the tournaments contributed to this foreigner deficit. Not that it caused it per se, but from the views of last year, people very much like having their home town heroes win. But around 2012ish, most of the tournaments were won by Koreans. This means that fewer foreigners could win sustainable money and thus there became fewer foreigners to compete. Less foreigners and a stagnating meta contributed to a smaller viewerbase and player base. Then with diminishing returns, sponsors started pulling out. This is mostly theoretical, but it is a fact that far more tournaments in 2010-2011 were won by foreigners than in later years, and people need money to continue a profession. Also, LoL, Dota, and CS became huge and snagged audiences. | ||
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On August 28 2016 10:15 KrOmander wrote: Personally I haven't been interested in the Sc2 pro scene since like 2013/14, but I was always frustrated that some of the more ambitious and hardworking foreigners was not nurtured into the Korea scene by the prominent foreign owned teams and for it to be taken more seriously in general. My lasting memory of the Sc2 foreign pro scene lies with team EG running what looked like some type of frat house in the states where some of the higher earning Sc2 players resided smashing amateurs on NA ladder and meanwhile there wasn't any representation in Code S or A from outside Korea. Again if you have paid attention in BW days, player ret have been deliberated been shut out by Koreans when he was training in Korea. So to do what you want to happen, foreigners have to learn fluent Korean before training in Korea. Korean team wouldn't spent their time and money being patient with a foreigner when their management can be focusing on smooth communicating with Korean players and prepare for ProLeague/GSL. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 28 2016 04:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: it will always be more difficult for a Nigerian to become the best baseball hitter in the world because he'll have to change countries and learn a new culture while training and playing. similarly, it'll always be more difficult for a non-korean to become the best at Starcraft because they'll have to change countries and learn a new culture. non-Koreans face a tougher road. its just the way it is. accept it and move forward. Yeah, life is unfair and unequal for everyone, deal with it. What makes the whines about unfairness from NA/EU players even more annoying to hear is that they don't realise how privileged they already are. Stable country, social welfare, middle-class families, strong e-sports culture, sponsorship opportunities, etc. What about the Nigerian kid who wanted to be a SC2 pro? The odds are even more stacked against him. Let's look at other sports - football. This is where Africans and Asians are doing better in recent years. They have a strong domestic league. Some clubs are loaded too. But how do they gain international recognition and get transfer deals to Europe? Either by moving to Europe early on, or hitting the headlines in some international tourney like the World Cup (there was a big influx of Japanese and Korean players to Europe after their countries' strong performances in the World Cup 2012, albeit on home soil). Yes, a player who does well in the national league do occasionally catches a talent scout's eye and gets a transfer - but these are the players who more likely fail to make the transition and return home. The ones who make it big to Europe are those who have shown to be able to cope with the European game(which also includes adopting a new language and culture) or performed in the international stage against strong European or South American opposition. Is it easier for African and Asian footballers to move to Europe now than Western SC2 players move to Korea? Probably, yes. But it's only because it took decades for this infrastructure to be built. Esports, of course, moves at a faster pace. But that still means a proper infrastructure needs 4-5 years to build. And maybe it's not that the infrastructure couldn't be build since 2010. Maybe it's just that Bliz and sponsors have done all that's necessary to lay the foundation, but the pro players just lacked the right motivation and mindset to grab the chance and grind, grind, grind to success. I respect players like Snute, Scarlett and HuK. They stuck around, put up good performances, and show good attitude. Even when their form dropped, they didn't whine and just kept practising. These are the players that the EU/NA scene needs. (And how is it that they can keep up the motivation to keep playing, while players like Lilbow who peaked even higher by winning WCS can't? This probably goes to show that people who are motivated by results and money aren't the ones who will stay in the game and support the scene.) "Life so unfair, Koreans coming over to our tournaments and steal our welfare money!" Yeah, tell that to the Nigerian kid who doesn't have a shot in hell at local tourneys and sponsors. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On August 28 2016 14:01 RKC wrote: Yeah, life is unfair and unequal for everyone, deal with it. What makes the whines about unfairness from NA/EU players even more annoying to hear is that they don't realise how privileged they already are. Stable country, social welfare, middle-class families, strong e-sports culture, sponsorship opportunities, etc. What about the Nigerian kid who wanted to be a SC2 pro? The odds are even more stacked against him. Let's look at other sports - football. This is where Africans and Asians are doing better in recent years. They have a strong domestic league. Some clubs are loaded too. But how do they gain international recognition and get transfer deals to Europe? Either by moving to Europe early on, or hitting the headlines in some international tourney like the World Cup (there was a big influx of Japanese and Korean players to Europe after their countries' strong performances in the World Cup 2012, albeit on home soil). Yes, a player who does well in the national league do occasionally catches a talent scout's eye and gets a transfer - but these are the players who more likely fail to make the transition and return home. The ones who make it big to Europe are those who have shown to be able to cope with the European game(which also includes adopting a new language and culture) or performed in the international stage against strong European or South American opposition. Is it easier for African and Asian footballers to move to Europe now than Western SC2 players move to Korea? Probably, yes. But it's only because it took decades for this infrastructure to be built. Esports, of course, moves at a faster pace. But that still means a proper infrastructure needs 4-5 years to build. And maybe it's not that the infrastructure couldn't be build since 2010. Maybe it's just that Bliz and sponsors have done all that's necessary to lay the foundation, but the pro players just lacked the right motivation and mindset to grab the chance and grind, grind, grind to success. I respect players like Snute, Scarlett and HuK. They stuck around, put up good performances, and show good attitude. Even when their form dropped, they didn't whine and just kept practising. These are the players that the EU/NA scene needs. (And how is it that they can keep up the motivation to keep playing, while players like Lilbow who peaked even higher by winning WCS can't? This probably goes to show that people who are motivated by results and money aren't the ones who will stay in the game and support the scene.) "Life so unfair, Koreans coming over to our tournaments and steal our welfare money!" Yeah, tell that to the Nigerian kid who doesn't have a shot in hell at local tourneys and sponsors. Thing is, those players all had stable teams for a long time that allowed them those opportunities, Team Liquid, Acer, and EG are some of the longer standing SC2 teams. You are saying that foreign pros have been lazy and have not taken advantage of what blizzard and sponsors have done for them, but my question is, by what rubric do you measure that? Is it success? The best foreigners will perform well even against Koreans? This cannot be true, because even snute and Scarlett, two people you mentioned as motivated players have very few results against Koreans. Of course; Stephano and Naniwa are some of the few players to have achieved this. If even the best of foreigners, those with excellent attitudes and work ethics, fail to meet the standard of even mid-Koreans (consistently), then what is the problem? Surely their innate talent can't be worse and than all Korean pros. So if (and it's a big if) the problem is not with the players (I mean like Scarlett and snute), then where is the problem? I think th obvious answer is that NA and away don't have the same infrastructure as Korea because they are spread out over a massively larger area. Korea has an excellent infrastructure because they have dedicated money towards growing players. Of course, Blizzard is trying to grow the foreign scene very quickly, and one way to attend act new players and old ones is to increase the money in that scene. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 28 2016 15:22 FrkFrJss wrote: Thing is, those players all had stable teams for a long time that allowed them those opportunities, Team Liquid, Acer, and EG are some of the longer standing SC2 teams. You are saying that foreign pros have been lazy and have not taken advantage of what blizzard and sponsors have done for them, but my question is, by what rubric do you measure that? Is it success? The best foreigners will perform well even against Koreans? This cannot be true, because even snute and Scarlett, two people you mentioned as motivated players have very few results against Koreans. Of course; Stephano and Naniwa are some of the few players to have achieved this. If even the best of foreigners, those with excellent attitudes and work ethics, fail to meet the standard of even mid-Koreans (consistently), then what is the problem? Surely their innate talent can't be worse and than all Korean pros. So if (and it's a big if) the problem is not with the players (I mean like Scarlett and snute), then where is the problem? I think th obvious answer is that NA and away don't have the same infrastructure as Korea because they are spread out over a massively larger area. Korea has an excellent infrastructure because they have dedicated money towards growing players. Of course, Blizzard is trying to grow the foreign scene very quickly, and one way to attend act new players and old ones is to increase the money in that scene. Maybe there is no problem anymore. Maybe the balance has been reached. For whatever reason (motivation, passion, real talents playing other games, etc.), foreigners can't overtake Koreans anytime soon, just as no African and Asian country will win the World Cup anytime soon (their performances has somewhat plateaued in the past decade after a surge in the 90s and early 2000s). Foreigners have enough opportunities to shine since 2010. So now just let things take its course. Stick to the old WCS Premier system. That's fair to all sides. Maybe foreigners will never be as good as Koreans in SC2. And we should all accept that, and enjoy the game as it is. Just as I'm happy watching the likes of Spain, Brazil and Germany winning the World Cup, while the occasional African and Asian countries making deep runs in the quarters or semis. I don't need an underdog winning the World Cup to sustain my interest in football. In fact, I'm more annoyed than happy if an underdog upsets a favourite due to some fluke and the favourite derping, rather than the underdog punching above its weight (hence why I didn't particularly enjoy the recent Euros - the overall quality was sub-par). So why should we have such expectations for SC2? All sports in the world are dominated by a few countries anyway (since SC2 is not widely played across the world, a sole country kicking ass fits the ratio). | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:01 Poopi wrote: Shit I dont want Korea sc2 to die, the WoL gaming house videos era was so awesome. The WoL era was when we still had foreigners who still had the ambition to go train in the country that has the best training facilities: South Korea. The LOTV era is where foreigners don't want Koreans in their competitions because then they'd have to either adapt their training methods to those used by Koreans, or admit that they cannot compete and retire. LOTV-era WCS is what would happen if the IOC barred Phelps or Bolt from participating in the olympics because other athletes complained that they never have a chance at winning the gold. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 28 2016 16:38 maartendq wrote: The WoL era was when we still had foreigners who still had the ambition to go train in the country that has the best training facilities: South Korea. The LOTV era is where foreigners don't want Koreans in their competitions because then they'd have to either adapt their training methods to those used by Koreans, or admit that they cannot compete and retire. LOTV-era WCS is what would happen if the IOC barred Phelps or Bolt from participating in the olympics because other athletes complained that they never have a chance at winning the gold. Just fyi Neeb, Scarlett, NoRegret, Harstem and State have all trained in korea recently, so yo ucan't say none of them have ambition | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested. | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 28 2016 16:56 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Just fyi Neeb, Scarlett, NoRegret, Harstem and State have all trained in korea recently, so yo ucan't say none of them have ambition Hm. I wonder how warm or cold of a reception they're getting from the Korean pros. Reception has not been great in the past, from what I've read. I wonder if it may have even worsened now, due to the new WCS system. I can imagine (worst-case scenario, not saying it's likely) some bitterness along the lines of "you've stolen our money, now you want to steal our skills too?" I hope I'm wrong. Last DH, Major spoke about keeping in touch with TY or something. Regardless who the beneficiaries and losers are in the new WCS system, I like to think that both Korean and foreigner pros still maintain respect for each other.  | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3432 Posts
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
On August 28 2016 17:34 dizzy101 wrote: These absolutist, anti-foreigner arguments are so dumb. "I only want to see the best in the world, screw foreigners". As if these people watch every obscure Korean-vs-obscure Korean match. They don't. Part of the reason the SC2 viewership deflated like a balloon in 2013-14 was that no-name Koreans with zero backstory came to dominate the tournament scene. Fly in, win, take money, go back... and the tournament has no story to tell because nobody's invested. also, dont say dumb argument when your entire argument is based of assumption and speculation. sc2 is a decline, yes. but good luck proving its because the koreans didnt say 'oh i am very happy to have won' or do a breakdance after they won the finals. | ||
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