Altough I can see the need for a buff for zerg early game defense, I really dislike the notion of buffing the queen, is just like what they did with the MsC, instead of addressing the issues they just put a band aid and we end with yet a nother totally dominant unit. If lib harass is a problem adress that, if tankivacs are a problem adress that.

Don't give us another MsC please, having 1 is already too many.

Ej_

47656 Posts

July 01 2016 21:43 GMT

#24

fuck yeah back to mass queens in ZvT

no drop is safe from my creep queens anymore

JackONeill

861 Posts

July 01 2016 21:47 GMT

#25

The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.

That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.

To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.

xTJx

Brazil419 Posts

July 01 2016 21:54 GMT

#26

Impact of queen and spore "buff": None.

SHODAN

United Kingdom1161 Posts

July 01 2016 22:16 GMT

#27

well they've already done a disastrous job designing sc2 up until this point. might as well go balls deep now. [image loading]

HaroldtheBarrel

1 Post

July 01 2016 22:49 GMT

#28

This.

On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.

User was warned for this post

Penev

28536 Posts

July 01 2016 22:58 GMT

#29

You don't do the liberator justice, it works 3 jobs dammit!

- Tank
- Banshee
- Thor

PinoKotsBeer

Netherlands1385 Posts

July 01 2016 23:10 GMT

#30

^^ 100% agree with it.

Hanfy

Germany15 Posts

July 01 2016 23:10 GMT

#31

Where is the Warpprism nerf?

Cyro

United Kingdom20342 Posts

July 01 2016 23:14 GMT

#32

On July 02 2016 08:10 Hanfy wrote:
Where is the Warpprism nerf?

Both of the zerg changes will make warp prisms less effective

Queen's AA weapon range increased from 7 to 8
Spore Crawler's Root time decreased from 6 to 4

scoo2r

Canada91 Posts

July 01 2016 23:29 GMT

#33

The game design ideas generally sound fine from the blizz staff, just that sometimes the ideas get lost due to reactive changes. A good example is the widowmine, originally conceptualized to be a cheap factory anti-air unit to help mech-heavy openers, it rapidly became the new best friend for bio players, in fact wm came to define much of HOTS, who can forget Polt parade pushing marine marauder medivac across creep with wm backup. So the unit had to be nerfed and buffed and adjusted to balance it with the bio style, loosing the usefulness of it as a core anti-air unit. Now, don't get me wrong, wm is indeed one of the most beautifully balanced units in the game, it can do game winning damage (on both sides!), however, when you compare the original design idea and what it became, that path was reactive rather than proactive. One could have said, lets make wm move slower and shoot faster, so good for mech bad for bio. Several other examples are out there, cyclone meant to be a mobile harassment tool, is a niche defensive unit now, or swarmhost meant to be a siege unit, then a harass unit, now kind of obsolete, most zerg would probably want to get back the idea of a seige unit as originally planned because that gave zerg some options other than bl festor or now ultras.

My_Fake_Plastic_Luv

United States257 Posts

July 01 2016 23:32 GMT

#34

That's a nifty rhetorical move by Davyie. Instead of focusing on the issue of game design (which is the more important issue) he shifts focus on the game designers, By questioning the ability of a critic to know the abilities of the designers based off metric of designer's in game skill, he effectively puts the "attack" the person rather than the idea. Ethos vs. Logos if you will. In doing so he subtly reinforcing the notion that his game designers do know what they are doing, even if they are not experienced pros, while undercutting several critical position (such as the pro's position vs. the silver league position). Essentially what he is getting at is that our personal experiences with SC2 have no bearing on knowing what's right for the game. Doesn't matter how smart or experienced you are (even though that little random masters comment lends Dayvie credibility, while his argument snidely undermining his credibility), you don't have the right to comment on the designers, which means you don't have the right to comment on the design. Which means, discussing game design ideas would in a way be beneath him, as an actual game designer.

Basically I think an elaborate trolling going on here.

Ironically though if the ability to design the game is not based off of player ability than we all have the right to endless bitch about game design, which in the end still calls the game designer's abilities into question lol. Also if we take Dayvie's message for what it really says: I think it saying that no one really knows how to design a game.

Sorry this is not that well written.

ejozl

Denmark3520 Posts

July 01 2016 23:42 GMT

#35

To the game design question, I think the answer is simply to have every level. How else will you cater to all levels, if you don't at least have input from all levels. So optimally these inputs would be good game designers all on the same team, though that's a bit of a dream scenario.

404AlphaSquad

839 Posts

July 02 2016 00:08 GMT

#36

On July 02 2016 07:58 Penev wrote:
You don't do the liberator justice, it works 3 jobs dammit!

- Tank
- Banshee
- Thor

For some reason I imagine the pilots shouting: "they took our jobs"

Aegwynn

Italy460 Posts

July 02 2016 00:19 GMT

#37

As a zerg i feel this change so bad, it will promote defensive play even more. Why would a zerg player ever try to be offensive when pylons can shoot and tanks can fly? Fixing those issues would make much more sense, mass queen till ultra ftw lol.

TelecoM

United States10798 Posts

July 02 2016 00:29 GMT

#38

Nerf Liberators and Ultralisks, and there is really no reason to buff Queens / spores I feel

geokilla

Canada8254 Posts

July 02 2016 01:00 GMT

#39

On July 02 2016 08:10 Hanfy wrote:
Where is the Warpprism nerf?

They just buffed it.

Sweetness.751

United States225 Posts

July 02 2016 01:14 GMT

#40

On July 02 2016 06:24 Elentos wrote:

Show nested quote +

If they buff something Zerg it can also act as a buff against Protoss at the same time, so that could be a reason.

But the problem is the Liberator. Not that the Queen is weak. For an all mineral unit. its actually extremely good. Not to mention they even named the Liberator as a potential problem that needs a nerf in the future,