EPTThe liberator harass is a problem, when terran starts multiple attacks and queue up liberators. The zerg cant react fast enough and loses mining time or drones. Spore change was enough for that. If we make liberators useless, nobody will make them anymore. They are made, because they are so versatile!
Community Feedback Update - July 1 - Page 6
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todespolka
221 Posts
The liberator harass is a problem, when terran starts multiple attacks and queue up liberators. The zerg cant react fast enough and loses mining time or drones. Spore change was enough for that. If we make liberators useless, nobody will make them anymore. They are made, because they are so versatile! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
Only ladder? - Jinro won MLG Dallas 2010 and was top4 GSL twice (beat MC on his peak, Ensnare and IdrA on GSL). - ThorZaIN won TSL3 over FruitDealer, MC!!! and NaNiwa. Two GSL champions in a row! And won Dreamhack 2012 Stockholm over Polt! Reread the comment I responded too. Thorzain and Jinro weren't included. MorroW (as a terran) won IEM 2010 Season V Cologne - Loner was 2nd at Blizzcon 2010 over HuK and Sen - Naama won Dreamhack 2010 over MaNa - SjoW won IEM Season V European Championships over WhiteRa - Kas was 3rd at TSL3 and WCG2011 - over MarinKing!!! in 1/4 WCG. Also 3rd at IEM Season VI Kiev. Won many minor tournaments (like Ritmix RSL I, Copenhagen Games 2012, HomerJ Cup) and earned 65k$ in tournaments - BratOK won game vs NesTea in one of the most beautifull late TvZ of all time vs NesTea at Blizzcon2011, was 4rd at ASUS ROG Summer 2011 and earned 35k$ on major and minor tournaments until retire in 2012. - Strelok won some minor tournaments like HD World Tournament, Sennheiser Regular Cup and earned ~25k$. Not only ladder, right? Half of the accomplishments you list are 2010/very very early 2011, so once again I suggest you make sure to actually look at the context before responding. And the other half consists of tournaments with no real competition. I hope you never considered Kas, Bratok, Strelok, Loner or Sjow as top 5 foreigners in mid 2011/afterwards. The only terran that was relevant after early 2011 was Thorzain (Note: I define relevant as someone who for a period was a top 5 foreign player) After meta changed to a more macrooriented game, foreign terrans slowly died until HOTS where they recovered somewhat. Further, notice some of the results you feel forced to in clude in order to support your premise that foreign terrans performed well in WO: You need to say that Bratok won a single game over Nestea! I could also have included Dimaga actually beating Nestea in a series when Nestea was at his peak! | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote: The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc... It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game. That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over. To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue. Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER. This so much. Blizzard please try to solve the real issues instead of something that only affect 5-10 Zergs in Korea. You need to make the game more fun and less frustrating not just try to maintain a 50/50 balance for the top 0.1% of the playerbase. | ||
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stilt
France2733 Posts
On July 03 2016 22:13 Charoisaur wrote: If korean zergs continue to underperform for a few years we can say the same about them and accept it as the way it is. If a race is underperforming it's either because they are underpowered at a certain level or because their players happen to be worse. If people say foreign terrans happen to be worse they must also accept the possibility that korean zergs happen to be worse. Don't know what foreign terrans underperforming for a long period has to do with that. That's not "if people say foreign terrans happen to be worse", that's they happen to be worse for reasons which had been discussed for age, I guess most ppl agree on the fact that the race is really hard to master at high level so there are very few guys who have the investissment and the skills to reach a top eu level if you compare to Z and P and so, when they are less people, the individuals can matter. That's commonly stated that Kas and even more Happy were a waste of talent, they were extremely goods but could do very stupids stuff when it mattered, Lucifron was a student, Jinro and Thorzain performed wells, same goes for Bunny but that's all whereas the two other races had a bigger talent pool because they were easier to play. Anyway, during the 1/1/1 area, there were a lot of guys like you who were saying that the protoss foreigners were doing fines against their Terrans counterparts so it was not a problem to see 1 protoss in ro16 of GSL, nowadays, this build is considered as the biggest bullshit of this year but they were rights, foreigner toss were doing really goods against T. Moreover Z kor situation can not be seriously compared to T for for the same, numerous and already stated reasons but as I am a good guy and a repetition is always pedagogic, I repeat: _ Korea is the place where the level is the hightest, a flawless play tells always more about balance that an imperfect one. _ Even if to be honest (and not as baised as some others), korean Zergs had sometime be a bit off toward the meta eu, they played infestor after the foreigners, they rarely bother to play the mass static D/swarmhost compo in the very late game against toss and today, when I see soO playing hydras against a T who make obviously liberators who osed them I'm like "WTF mate?!"and I am pretty angry when I see all the fails of Loisira. However, a top korean T will most likely wreck even more a top Foreigner Z than Kor. _ Even if zerg kor are now less good than their P or T counterparts, I am still skeptic when I see every T kor having for favorite MU the tvz but hey, maybe soO, Byul, Curious, Rogue are suddenly becoming bads while T are now super handsome.(Alive 2-0 rogue and beats Dark in SL and that's not even surprising) | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
It's supposed to be the design of the race, where Z overwelm T/P with more units. But when you nerf zerg eco, while Zerg need to takes more bases. Now zerg feel really awkward : Your macro lead is little while your units are not way more cost effective, so you see zerg trying to get some infest/bile compo really gaz heavy to be cost effective vs some low gaz Terra bio, then ultra to be cost effective. The race isn't anymore the swarm, but closer to protoss while no photon canon or heavy cost effective units. So zerg say buff back our eco, while blizzard show they prefer zerg stay like protoss but less stronger. | ||
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ShamanElemental1
56 Posts
If anything it helps vs Medivacs and Oracles a bit , otherwise the main problem is still there. Liberator needs to be a late game unit , not a harass unit. Tankivacs should be an upgrade or at least drop the tank in unsieged mode , flying tanks are pretty dumb in both TvT and ZvT I mean who had the idea of a thor + banshee + tank combined, geting a free pass as a harass unit while also being reactored to mass it ? ( David please follow Lilbow and let sc2 follow another path ) Also... LBM still has to little larva ( you can buff the style by making banelings cheaper and mutalisk cheaper ) | ||
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SpecKROELLchen
Germany150 Posts
But i think people just have become lazy and want fast success. This is the era of mobas where you can learn a hero fast and u are able to master the game over a long time. When you play starcraft 1 or 2 you get crushed and it feels so much worse than in other games. I think the trend has a much higher impact than some faults of blizzard. The game is still great imo, but not for this generation (sorry i repeat myself). | ||
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ShamanElemental1
56 Posts
On July 04 2016 00:23 Tyrhanius wrote: Zergs don't perform well on korea cause their units have really poor micro abilities. You can't kill twice, three times the value of your units with zerg units unlike P/T. It's supposed to be the design of the race, where Z overwelm T/P with more units. But when you nerf zerg eco, while Zerg need to takes more bases. Now zerg feel really awkward : Your macro lead is little while your units are not way more cost effective, so you see zerg trying to get some infest/bile compo really gaz heavy to be cost effective vs some low gaz Terra bio, then ultra to be cost effective. The race isn't anymore the swarm, but closer to protoss while no photon canon or heavy cost effective units. So zerg say buff back our eco, while blizzard show they prefer zerg stay like protoss but less stronger. Pretty much this. But hey David logic is always better. I mean he ignored the Kespa feedback that asked for 4 larva, they also insisted that there is a big problem...and David basically nitpick into the Liberator being the only problem because "foreign community" rejected the kespa idea. And what does he do ? He tries to use bandaids like +1 range to queen AA and spore buff. And people keep prasing the guy.... I have alot of respect for Jay Wilson but he clearly failed at Diablo 3 Why cant David Kim accept that he failed and needs to go just like Jay did ? | ||
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stilt
France2733 Posts
On July 04 2016 00:23 Tyrhanius wrote: Zergs don't perform well on korea cause their units have really poor micro abilities. You can't kill twice, three times the value of your units with zerg units unlike P/T. It's supposed to be the design of the race, where Z overwelm T/P with more units. But when you nerf zerg eco, while Zerg need to takes more bases. Now zerg feel really awkward : Your macro lead is little while your units are not way more cost effective, so you see zerg trying to get some infest/bile compo really gaz heavy to be cost effective vs some low gaz Terra bio, then ultra to be cost effective. The race isn't anymore the swarm, but closer to protoss while no photon canon or heavy cost effective units. So zerg say buff back our eco, while blizzard show they prefer zerg stay like protoss but less stronger. I agree on the zerg gameplay, it's really protoss-like with a micro based on spell casting and a lot of camping with the hope of reaching a particulary tech... However, it can be very cost efficient (ultra +8armours/queen/vipères/ravagers/infest can be deadly) but it is still very boring and the patch would maybe reequilibrate the MU but would not give me the desire to play it again. (I would still try some games to see a bit the effects but only for 2-3 hours) | ||
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Haukinger
Germany131 Posts
On July 03 2016 21:03 Nazara wrote: The fans don't cheer because a better strategy won, but mechanical skill, something hard as f*ck to perform. Apart from the fact that, say, chess tournaments, wouldn't have any viewers/fans at all, and that's clearly not true, from my personal experience as viewer, I never was able to appreciate mechanical skill. I always think something like "man, that was inefficient - Automaton 2000 would have done that 10x better... doh..." | ||
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stilt
France2733 Posts
On July 04 2016 02:38 Haukinger wrote: Apart from the fact that, say, chess tournaments, wouldn't have any viewers/fans at all, and that's clearly not true, from my personal experience as viewer, I never was able to appreciate mechanical skill. I always think something like "man, that was inefficient - Automaton 2000 would have done that 10x better... doh..." Come on, you're not even enjoying micro like this? Mechanics are an important part of the game, speed, fluidity, taking instant decisions, that can be beautiful and that's why most people loved ling's control of Life.... And this control brings tactical brightness on his play. A rts would and should never be like chess which is mostly about calcul and I would not call this a "strategy game" either even if I love chess. (Caruana <3) | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
Apart from the fact that, say, chess tournaments, wouldn't have any viewers/fans at all Chess, being only a strategy game, is also nowhere near as popular as physical sports.On average, physical feats and competition is more entertaining (to greater array of people) then mental gymnastics. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
For instance having the Roach as an a-move unit is dumb. Also overlord drop play should be a much bigger part of the race because it adds more multitasking and micro. I would also love to see Lurker viability vs terran. And Ultralisk shouldn't be an OP amove unit, but should require skill to use effectively. Add some type of Dark-Swam type of ability that synergizes well with Ultra's and Lurkers, and then balance them around that ability. Honestly, there are tons of ways you can fix zerg without getting rid of its "swarm"-feeling but rather making the units worse when a-moved and more efficient when well microed. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
On July 04 2016 09:14 Hider wrote: The majority of viewers definitely appreciate sports for the execution. No question about it. And I also feel they should have streamlined the skillcap of Zerg with that of the other races by increasing the microability of zerg units. For instance having the Roach as an a-move unit is dumb. Also overlord drop play should be a much bigger part of the race because it adds more multitasking and micro. I would also love to see Lurker viability vs terran. And Ultralisk shouldn't be an OP amove unit, but should require skill to use effectively. Add some type of Dark-Swam type of ability that synergizes well with Ultra's and Lurkers, and then balance them around that ability. Honestly, there are tons of ways you can fix zerg without getting rid of its "swarm"-feeling but rather making the units worse when a-moved and more efficient when well microed. completely agree. when blizz promotes sc2, they always appeal to the "swarm" factor of zerg... sprawling nydus networks, overlord drops, flocks of mutas engulfing the skies and tumors creeping all over the place. in reality the game is nothing like that. I play terran, but my favorite zerg units are banelings, baneling mines and lurkers. they are fun to play against. when you lose, you can appreciate the patience and reaction time of the zerg player. spectators go nuts at tournaments watching a terran walk his army near a bunch of baneling mines. on the other hand, roach/ravager/ultra play is like watching paint dry and watching a zerg "micro" those units is thoroughly unspectacular. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
On July 04 2016 00:23 Tyrhanius wrote: Zergs don't perform well on korea cause their units have really poor micro abilities. You can't kill twice, three times the value of your units with zerg units unlike P/T. It's supposed to be the design of the race, where Z overwelm T/P with more units. But when you nerf zerg eco, while Zerg need to takes more bases. Now zerg feel really awkward : Your macro lead is little while your units are not way more cost effective, so you see zerg trying to get some infest/bile compo really gaz heavy to be cost effective vs some low gaz Terra bio, then ultra to be cost effective. The race isn't anymore the swarm, but closer to protoss while no photon canon or heavy cost effective units. So zerg say buff back our eco, while blizzard show they prefer zerg stay like protoss but less stronger. Exactly the truth. I don't like current design of Zerg being hardcore defensive till Hive. Buffing queens and spores means that Blizzard wants Zerg to stay that way. But that doesn't solve midgame issues of Zerg. We cannot be agressive, because that leaves a big window to receive "the fist of fury" of T or P harras or death by counter attack. I would like to see 4 larva injects back with 1 armour nerf on Ultras. In the same time Liberator nerf. It would solve the lategame issues for Terran in ZvT and midgame issues for Zerg as with 4 larva we could build our midgame economy that lets us to engage and exchange our armies with T or P without fear that we die. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On July 04 2016 15:02 hiroshOne wrote: Exactly the truth. I don't like current design of Zerg being hardcore defensive till Hive. Buffing queens and spores means that Blizzard wants Zerg to stay that way. But that doesn't solve midgame issues of Zerg. We cannot be agressive, because that leaves a big window to receive "the fist of fury" of T or P harras or death by counter attack. I would like to see 4 larva injects back with 1 armour nerf on Ultras. In the same time Liberator nerf. It would solve the lategame issues for Terran in ZvT and midgame issues for Zerg as with 4 larva we could build our midgame economy that lets us to engage and exchange our armies with T or P without fear that we die. I don't like it either and I agree with you, as I don't believe this buff goes to the right direction. But in general, the idea I believe they have is that, if early game Zerg have better defensive play, Zerg could cut more corners and get a bit more economy arriving into midgame and thus sustain a larger army which could be used for more offensive play. Unfortunately, since it also help to go turtle play I believe most will use it that way. As for the larva buff I am for, but not a direct buff from 3 to 4.First of all it seems to be too big of a buff in my opinion, but it's also one which will be beneficial for every Zerg no matter their level which might make the race too easy to play for non-Korean. I believe a buff to inject is a better idea, like decreasing the energy cost from 25 to 20 for example (and the time to see the larva hatch accordingly): the better player you are the more you will benefit from it and I think it's the way to balance Korea (which remains the most important thing to do IMO, no matter what we read in this thread) without breaking the scene by making Zerg too easy in the other region. Any buff to Zerg must be, a "difficult to master " one, which is why I disagree with this queen buff and also a flat 3 to 4 larvas. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
The idea of making Lair/Hive give +1/+2 larva sounds so much better. Keeps the early economy in check but gives a little more larva to mass lings for LBM play  Another option could be to add a 50/50 research at Hatch or Lair that improves Queen larva spawn (?) | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
On July 04 2016 19:27 Salteador Neo wrote: It feels like going from 3 to 4 larvae would be huge because the early additional drones would change the numbers game quite a bit. Earlier drones means more resources to spend on more units later (possible again due to more larvae). Also the possibility of more early lings could mean the other races need to play a bit more defensive? The idea of making Lair/Hive give +1/+2 larva sounds so much better. Keeps the early economy in check but gives a little more larva to mass lings for LBM play Another option could be to add a 50/50 research at Hatch or Lair that improves Queen larva spawn (?) I would not agree as the early economy is the big issue here. We all agree that Zerg macro was nerfed the most from all three races. I would say that 4 larva inject would make this game equal compared to Terran or Toss. While we watch pro games we can observe that in LOTV Terran and Toss are equal or ahead in economy compared to Zerg. In HOTS and WOL it was Zerg that kept his lead in this department. Lacking of those addicional larvae in the early game starts a snowball effect that is setting Zerg to much behind in midgame, that slows taking the 4th base and that's why Muta/Bling is not viable anymore- because Zerg has no economy to trade with cost efficient BIO of Terran or Adepts for example. We must remember that Zerg supposed to be swarm- cheaper units, lots of them but with the masses we shopuld be able to overhelm Toss or Terra. Now it's not a case anymore and all Zergs in the world understand, that in order to be cost efficient, we must turtle, defend and go tech. It's not Zerg supposed to be. Wat Blizzard actually did in LOTv was nerfing Zerg macro to the bone and buffing Protoss and Terran harras a lot. And i mean- a lot with all those new reapers, tankivacks, liberators and in other hand buffed warprism, adepts and for example- disruptor drops. That's the core problem. I would be more than happy if Blizz would buff larva inject back to 4, even if this would cost us armour nerf on ultras. It would make Zerg more versatile in midgame and less dominant in lategame. I don't understand Blizzard dropping the idea of 4 larva. I really think they should at least put this change on the test map and then we would see how it works. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On July 03 2016 23:31 MockHamill wrote: This so much. Blizzard please try to solve the real issues instead of something that only affect 5-10 Zergs in Korea. You need to make the game more fun and less frustrating not just try to maintain a 50/50 balance for the top 0.1% of the playerbase. (]WARNING : BIG RANT) Sorry but the post you're quoting is wrong on so many levels. You can't take it seriously it's just random whine that are so not on point with the realiity of the game that you'd wonder if the guy is playing at all, or maybe he's one of this gold/plat that insult you when you beat them for playing the race you play and blaming some imaginary design balance issues for all their defeats. So let's take a close look if you may : - Massive drop in player base whine : based on what? twitch tv figures? (which don't even take proleague in their count btw) or on what source? nios.kr has shut down and rankedftw says there were more people on ladder at the end of last season (205 000) than at the end of the one before (197 000). Where is the massive drop? in OP's wet dreams? - Ravager whine : even in plat league people know how to not let their army under bile rain. Ravager kill static defense and sieged units. Again, it's a tool to kill turtling opponent and to force dynamic play instead of dull stalemate BS. - adept shades enabling multipronged harass whine. Ok, it took people a few monthes to get used to it, but right now, how can one say it'zs a design issue? unless you want to heavily promote turtling? -disruptor being hit or miss whine : so what? means you need micro? how is this a problem? Is this the fact that you can micro to avoid it? should it be as easy to land as storm maybe? I don't think so. Like fungals, or baneling, the opponent can micro to avoid the spell and that's cool. What would we want? just another unit pew-pewing? What would it bring to the game? - air sieged unit whine : sorry but it is a cool design, and no it's not the tanks job, any player playing terran knows there are situation when you need a tank and others when you need a liberator. Also they are not countered the same way at all. So maybe Libs have a balance issue (which these proposed changes are trying to adress) but it's not a design issue at all sorry. - viper's PB whine : are you kidding me? why is it so bad that a tier 3 spell forces the opponent to micro? If you don' tmicro against ravens you die the same way. -Performing difficulty vs reacting difficulty whine : now that's totally made up and makes no sense. The defender is always forced to react, by definition but it's not unreasonably harder. Like if you don't have any detection you die by DTs but it's not because it's harder, it's just because you played poorly or were caught off guard. But it's not difficult to counter, just like shades are not difficult to counter when you get used to it, raising a depot, splitting your roaches or havng your MSC and army not balled up in the same spot are just little adpatation that are not hard in any way and that shuts down adpat harass pretty well. - TvZ terran either wins before late game or dies whine Yeah we were missing that cliche. Oh breaking news : it's totally wrong. - all the rest of the post is the samekind of bullshit, and this post is already too long but really : Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue WTF! Just WTF!!! nobody that is playing the game as terran can seriously even remotly think this. You have many styles of bio comp, you have mech, you have sky, you have so many combination of opening, transitions, late game comp, so many options to harass, so many all in and timings. We see new builds poping up every damn week! How long this community will keep on circlejerking with made up whines that don't even relate to the game? are those post made with a random bullshit generator? Have the famous whining streamers given brain cancer to all the community? And you'd want Blizzard to give any credit to this kind of post? Is this what people refer to when they say they want DK to listen to the community? gimme a break. So let's get this straight : you don't like the game? fine, don't play it, nobody will think less of you. But Blizzard has to listen people that are actually playing it and enjoying it, their opinion matters much more cause their the one that will bring the good ideas. It's commone sense to focus on your core player base and not listen to all the quitters who : 1) probably won't come back 2) all have their own personal reason to quit. They're not compatible and probably not consistent either because at the end of the day they're just based on personnal taste and biased percepetion rather than actual facts. (RANT OFF) Ok off to play the game, I don't even know why I'm reading this site ... | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
Just quoting what an intelligent guy said: some interactions are still pretty broken and purely designed while it should be otherwise. And in some cases it should be relatively easy to adress them, but they have to commit to fuck the perfect 50 50 50 winrate bullshit for a while. Just to quote an example, Tempest deathball. It should be relatively easy to adress by changing the micro aspect from Tempests. Righ now, they behave like most aerial units, but they have siege range, so hit and run is relatively easy to pull off, and the constant poke at max supply count with Toss fully teched is annoying to deal with since it promotes heavy turtling and endless poke to death. If instead the Tempest moved slightly faster but with very a long attack animation before releasing the projectile (channeled attack), it would behave more like a siege unit and could be easilly killed, instead of having to deal with the poking deathball and praising that the storms aren't on point before the clash. In exchange, it should be buffed in some aspect, potentially vision range. Liberators should be easy to rebalance, with siege mode maybe needing Armory to be activated, or maybe even the unit itself. Oracles could also be reviewed, even if they don't feel as powerful in LotV. Same with Adept shade. I mean, the game and worker harass is ok, but having the game lost because they rushed a unit that is able to destroy half your economy in 10s at the start of the game is not ideal. Adressing terran lategame shouldn't be so difficult, ultras can be nerfed safely and there's a big part of the Mech army that is pretty unnefective in most cases, so there are a ton of possibilties worth studying. The tankivac thing can also be delayed even with a cheap 50/50 tech simply concieved to buy time , and its mechanical aspect could be reviewed too, since instapick instadrop is not exactly balanced. There are a ton of adjustements that can be done, and its what we should ask for. Revision of what it could be improved, retaining their strengths or raising the mechanical skill cap or adressing the one-sided scenarios caused by the strength of some aspects. And at the same time, there should be some room for improvement in different areas. For exampe, testing non-light Hellions (buff vs Protoss), Reexploring some aspects for the Adept, having a second look at the Void Ray, reworking SH, etc. | ||
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