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On July 03 2016 01:47 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 22:10 coolmiyo wrote:
new stuff makes players to use their brain, new playstyles and diferent strategies.
Pretty bad approach for a game that is designed to be a competitive esport.
Quite the contrary, the only viable approach for an esport that relies on the viewers being players themselves to appreciate the stuff done by the pros. Perhaps pros like to play the same "build" on the same map a million times, but the casual players get bored rather quickly, and that's exactly what you see - ever declining viewership, unless a new expansion comes around.
If blizzard gave us weekly patches, perhaps just nerfing the most used units/"timings"/etc... and buffing the most unused ones, the game would be far more interesting to play (and watch).
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only viable approach for an esport that relies on the viewers being players themselves to appreciate the stuff done by the pros Agreed. This can be done with mechanics which are hard to perform or outright impossible for an average player. That's how you "wow" people.
Micro, macro, multitasking, spellcasting, splitting, kiting - there is a lot of stuff to do in the game. However, each and every one of those actions can be performed by an average gamer almost as good as a pro can. Anyone can replicate pros and throw around Biles and shit.
All of those small Starcraft 2 components are easy, and that's why viewership drops. You can't compare the erections that Jangbi caused with his Storms in BW to blanket Storms that anyone in Silver can do just as well as a GM player.
Like it or not, the hardcore difficulty of BW is what made it successful and kept it around for so long.
In SC2, viewer cannot appreciate what pro is doing, because a lot of it is done off-screen.
What is done on-screen, is not that amazing in and out of itself. That's the problem.
If blizzard gave us weekly patches, perhaps just nerfing the most used units/"timings"/etc... and buffing the most unused ones, the game would be far more interesting to play (and watch). True, but it wouldn't be a true sport. Rules for chess, football, cricket etc. didn't change in decades if not hundreds of years. There are no sports with an ever changing set of rules.
LoL stays affloat because it is patched constantly. What if developers suddenly stopped supporting it? I reckon there wouldn't be much longevity in the game. LoL is successful because of constant patching, but it also needs constant patching to be successful.
If you need to change rules constantly to keep people having fun, then you have a problem elsewhere.
What this game needs, is not constant patching, but one big overhaul that would make multiple playstyles viable, without any of them being OP, and then no patches at all - only maps to balance the races. One can dream.
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On July 03 2016 02:58 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +only viable approach for an esport that relies on the viewers being players themselves to appreciate the stuff done by the pros Agreed. This can be done with mechanics which are hard to perform or outright impossible for an average player. That's how you "wow" people. Micro, macro, multitasking, spellcasting, splitting, kiting - there is a lot of stuff to do in the game. However, each and every one of those actions can be performed by an average gamer almost as good as a pro can. Anyone can replicate pros and throw around Biles and shit. All of those small Starcraft 2 components are easy, and that's why viewership drops. You can't compare the erections that Jangbi caused with his Storms in BW to blanket Storms that anyone in Silver can do just as well as a GM player. Like it or not, the hardcore difficulty of BW is what made it successful and kept it around for so long. In SC2, viewer cannot appreciate what pro is doing, because a lot of it is done off-screen. What is done on-screen, is not that amazing in and out of itself. That's the problem. Show nested quote +If blizzard gave us weekly patches, perhaps just nerfing the most used units/"timings"/etc... and buffing the most unused ones, the game would be far more interesting to play (and watch). True, but it wouldn't be a true sport. Rules for chess, football, cricket etc. didn't change in decades if not hundreds of years. There are no sports with an ever changing set of rules. LoL stays affloat because it is patched constantly. What if developers suddenly stopped supporting it? I reckon there wouldn't be much longevity in the game. LoL is successful because of constant patching, but it also needs constant patching to be successful. If you need to change rules constantly to keep people having fun, then you have a problem elsewhere. What this game needs, is not constant patching, but one big overhaul that would make multiple playstyles viable, without any of them being OP, and then no patches at all - only maps to balance the races. One can dream.
As a master player I can say I succesfully haven't mastered one aspect of micro, macrro, spellcasting, splitting or kitting as well as most pro's I watch.
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
Hit the nail on the head. Add 2/3 base reaper all ins to the list. The game favors the aggressor/cheeser in almost every way. As a result, people who like to macro and play defensive such as myself are at such a disadvantage. THAT is not good game design
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Blizzard seems successful in being divisive on the sc2 scene. Are Riot the same with LoL? I know CS players sometimes criticise Valve, so I won't ask about Valve.
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On July 03 2016 04:33 Shield wrote:
Blizzard seems successful in being divisive on the sc2 scene. Are Riot the same with LoL? I know CS players sometimes criticise Valve, so I won't ask about Valve.
Riot is 1000x worse
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On July 02 2016 17:39 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 11:31 avilo wrote:
With things like:
-8 armor ultra
-adept shades
-warp prism range
-liberator range
-cyclones
-mech viability
-parasitic bomb
-ling/bane/muta viability vs T
-invulnerable nydus worm
good list in fact. Add tempest supply increase to it. I still have hope they'll dig into those issues after november, especially since most of those things (in fact all of them except mech and LBM) can be dealt with with very simple and sensible measures.
I actually forgot to put that on the list, and it's definitely on the list  lol
The sad fact is in this last "update" dkim literally put all that mumbo jumbo about game design in the update so he can exonerate himself from being wrong and having to do anything about that list of things that are currently wrong with the game because he can justify it to himself that "he knows better" than we do.
Even though 99% of people with common sense know the above list of things is what he should have been working on this whole time and putting those changes into the game.
Blizzard ego is just too high atm, including Mr. Kims. They're taking the path of "we're right, you're wrong. So we will change the game how we want, and not ever listen to you."
Which is exactly what they did with world of warcraft "we know what you want."
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
-Which is exactly what they did with world of warcraft "we know what you want."
"Have you ever thought of X?"
"NO. And by the way, you don't want to do that either. You think you do, but you don't"
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On July 02 2016 21:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 21:29 EatingBomber wrote:On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between Foreign zergs and protoss just happen to be better.
Anyone that makes this argument must accept the possibility that Korean zergs just happen to be worse. I think they're both dumb.
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On July 03 2016 06:14 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 21:57 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2016 21:29 EatingBomber wrote:On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between Foreign zergs and protoss just happen to be better. Anyone that makes this argument must accept the possibility that Korean zergs just happen to be worse. I think they're both dumb.
but foreign Terrans have always done worse than Z and P while Korean Zergs started underperforming only after LotV release, that's the reason this argument rose up
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On July 03 2016 07:29 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 06:14 TheWinks wrote:On July 02 2016 21:57 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2016 21:29 EatingBomber wrote:On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between Foreign zergs and protoss just happen to be better. Anyone that makes this argument must accept the possibility that Korean zergs just happen to be worse. I think they're both dumb. but foreign Terrans have always done worse than Z and P while Korean Zergs started underperforming only after LotV release, that's the reason this argument rose up
so if a race is underperforming for a long period it's not a problem anymore because people are used to it?
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On July 03 2016 07:29 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 06:14 TheWinks wrote:On July 02 2016 21:57 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2016 21:29 EatingBomber wrote:On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between Foreign zergs and protoss just happen to be better. Anyone that makes this argument must accept the possibility that Korean zergs just happen to be worse. I think they're both dumb. but foreign Terrans have always done worse than Z and P while Korean Zergs started underperforming only after LotV release, that's the reason this argument rose up
Foreign terrans haven't always done worse than Z and P, it's just been such a long time with a couple long periods of horrible imbalance that some people accept it as the way it is. It also feeds into itself, the longer the painful periods last, the fewer opportunities and success players of a certain race get. The opposite is true too for the beneficiaries of that imbalance. They get more opportunities and support.
On July 03 2016 07:50 Charoisaur wrote:
so if a race is underperforming for a long period it's not a problem anymore because people are used to it?
Exactly. Obviously the solution is to let Korean zergs struggle for a year or so and then just accept it as just the way it is. They're not even struggling to the extent of the worst periods of sc2 balance anyway and the international zerg scene is doing just fine if not thriving. We have all our little justification ducks in a row now.
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Russian Federation37 Posts
but foreign Terrans have always done worse than Z and P
Really? Jinro was the only foreigner, who twice went into the semi-finals of GSL. Moreover, he beat on his path the best foreign Zerg those times - IdrA. From launch of SC2 WoL in august 2010 till mid of 2012 foreign terrans were not worse than the zergs and protosses.
Thorzain, Lucifron, BratOK, Strelok, Kas, Happy, SjoW and others - their career was broken by Blizzard policy for WCS (2013-2015) and the permanent problems with balance (first Broodlord/Infestors, then Blink toss, then Adept toss). The reality is that on the top level only korean terrans with korean hands in the current metagame can beat top zergs and protosses. Play protoss and zerg on non-korean level much easier. For more than 4 years. It's a fact. Blizzard ignores it all the time, which leads to retirement of the top foreigner terrans from pro scene.
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On July 03 2016 02:58 Nazara wrote:
Agreed. This can be done with mechanics which are hard to perform or outright impossible for an average player. That's how you "wow" people.
Agreed, but you only "wow" people who play the game themselves. A new viewer who sees marines splitting against banelings or focus fire banelings just takes it for granted. He'd rather ask "why are those marines just standing around?" if a player does sub-optimal or no splitting.
True, but it wouldn't be a true sport. Rules for chess, football, cricket etc. didn't change in decades if not hundreds of years. There are no sports with an ever changing set of rules.
Take a look at road racing, formula one or skiing - they have new rules at least every season. They're no more true or untrue sport as chess or soccer just because of that.
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Ye, always wondered how naive some people are to believe being gm/pro makes their ideas for the game automatically superior to others.
Blizzard is right that it is somewhat independent, but:
Being a progamer requires you to get along with the current setup, accept it, adapt to it as good as possible, abuse it where you can, etc. Being a game designer requires you more to question current things and find and spend time with potential solution that do not exist yet and have no meaning in current play of the game. This however is detrimental for your performance cause when you shift your mindset towards thinking in alternatives that do not exist and as well never might exist, you by default lose at least a bit of grip to what matters for the current game and perform worse.
There are personalities that enjoy and get along best with repeating the same/similar things many times and get very good at it. There are other personalities that get bored with things more easily and from then on think more in ways of how to improve systems behind these things instead of continuing to master them. Imo these are even two to a certain extend contradictory skillsets which obviously must limit each other to a certain extend.
One thing can be said for sure: The best game designer cannot at the same time get to be the best player cause in order to become the best player he would have to give up these parts of his mindset that made him the best game-designer beforehand (and the other way round).
I assume SC2 needs a game/balance designer exactly as david kim is one: High game understanding through sufficient level of play but main focus is not on mastering SC2.
And following from this we can even assume that DK probably was and is a bit too much of a high level player and a bit too few of someone who focusses on good game design. You hardly can explain bad game-designs like invincible nydus (we want z to be able to harrass, we want nydus to be used), tankivacs (t need that right now so lets forget about game design and just do it) and the many other things with other reasons. Too many ideals where sacrificed for quickly balancing numbers and without respect to if this is what we actually want and need in terms of gameplay in SC2. Too much focus on changing as little as possible instead of making the game as good as possible no matter the costs.
Sure, you can hardly explain that to someone who is barely out of his teens, has managed to abuse/grind himself to gm twice in a row and therefore believes he knows best about everything concerning SC2.
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From launch of SC2 WoL in august 2010 till mid of 2012 foreign terrans were not worse than the zergs and protosses.
No they were. Zerg still had Idra, Ret, Sen, Stephano and probably others I forgot.
Who did terran have in 2011-2012? Thorzain won TSL, but after that he didn't do a lot either.
Lucifron, BratOK, Strelok, Kas, Happy, SjoW
These guys only performed on the ladder/online. They were never close to being relevant in actual tournaments unlike the foreign zerg and protoss counterparts.
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Agreed, but you only "wow" people who play the game themselves. A new viewer who sees marines splitting against banelings or focus fire banelings just takes it for granted. He'd rather ask "why are those marines just standing around?" if a player does sub-optimal or no splitting I disagree. You don't have to play Street Fighter to figure out that this play is not something to be taken for granted. You can simply tell by the reaction of the crowd.
The fans don't cheer because a better strategy won, but mechanical skill, something hard as f*ck to perform.
Take a look at road racing, formula one or skiing - they have new rules at least every season. They're no more true or untrue sport as chess or soccer just because of that They kind of have to - those sports combine human performance with machine performance and technological advancements. Seeing as there are improvements to car design every year, rules have to be changed to accommodate for it. A lot of the rules are about limiting what teams can use, to preserve as much human involvement (skill) in the race as possible (anyway, my knowledge on racing is limited as I find it dull and uninteresting, so I might be wrong in this case, if so, I apologise).
Meanwhile we had Blizzard who stated they wanted to test automatised production back in the beta and people saying they appreciate strategic/planning more (equivalent would be no restrictions on all of the computer assistance in F1) more then human/mechanical skill (which is the whole point of sport and what makes it fun).
Anyway I think our little conversation might be a bit off-topic
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Russian Federation37 Posts
On July 03 2016 19:05 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +From launch of SC2 WoL in august 2010 till mid of 2012 foreign terrans were not worse than the zergs and protosses. No they were. Zerg still had Idra, Ret, Sen, Stephano and probably others I forgot. Who did terran have in 2011-2012? Thorzain won TSL, but after that he didn't do a lot either. These guys only performed on the ladder. They were never close to being relevant in actual tournaments unlike the foreign zerg and protoss counterparts.
Only ladder?
- Jinro won MLG Dallas 2010 and was top4 GSL twice (beat MC on his peak, Ensnare and IdrA on GSL).
- ThorZaIN won TSL3 over FruitDealer, MC!!! and NaNiwa. Two GSL champions in a row! And won Dreamhack 2012 Stockholm over Polt!
- MorroW (as a terran) won IEM 2010 Season V Cologne
- Loner was 2nd at Blizzcon 2010 over HuK and Sen
- Naama won Dreamhack 2010 over MaNa
- SjoW won IEM Season V European Championships over WhiteRa
- Kas was 3rd at TSL3 and WCG2011 - over MarinKing!!! in 1/4 WCG. Also 3rd at IEM Season VI Kiev. Won many minor tournaments (like Ritmix RSL I, Copenhagen Games 2012, HomerJ Cup) and earned 65k$ in tournaments
- BratOK won game vs NesTea in one of the most beautifull late TvZ of all time vs NesTea at Blizzcon2011, was 4rd at ASUS ROG Summer 2011 and earned 35k$ on major and minor tournaments until retire in 2012.
- Strelok won some minor tournaments like HD World Tournament, Sennheiser Regular Cup and earned ~25k$. Not only ladder, right?
- Happy and LucifroN also top5 foreign terrans of all time. They won over 65k$ each and many minor tournaments as well.
And after queen patch of 2012 and new WCS system, results of most foreign terrans went down. Crush down. Only Bunny on the top.
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On July 03 2016 21:07 PolymakTri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 19:05 Hider wrote:From launch of SC2 WoL in august 2010 till mid of 2012 foreign terrans were not worse than the zergs and protosses. No they were. Zerg still had Idra, Ret, Sen, Stephano and probably others I forgot. Who did terran have in 2011-2012? Thorzain won TSL, but after that he didn't do a lot either. Lucifron, BratOK, Strelok, Kas, Happy, SjoW These guys only performed on the ladder. They were never close to being relevant in actual tournaments unlike the foreign zerg and protoss counterparts. Only ladder? - Jinro won MLG Dallas 2010 and was top4 GSL twice (beat MC on his peak, Ensnare and IdrA on GSL). - ThorZaIN won TSL3 over FruitDealer, MC!!! and NaNiwa. Two GSL champions in a row! And won Dreamhack 2012 Stockholm over Polt! - MorroW (as a terran) won IEM 2010 Season V Cologne - Loner was 2nd at Blizzcon 2010 over HuK and Sen - Naama won Dreamhack 2010 over MaNa - SjoW won IEM Season V European Championships over WhiteRa - Kas was 3rd at TSL3 and WCG2011 - over MarinKing!!! in 1/4 WCG. Also 3rd at IEM Season VI Kiev. Won many minor tournaments (like Ritmix RSL I, Copenhagen Games 2012, HomerJ Cup) and earned 65k$ in tournaments - BratOK won game vs NesTea in one of the most beautifull late TvZ of all time vs NesTea at Blizzcon2011, was 4rd at ASUS ROG Summer 2011 and earned 35k$ on major and minor tournaments until retire in 2012. - Strelok won some minor tournaments like HD World Tournament, Sennheiser Regular Cup and earned ~25k$. Not only ladder, right? - Happy and LucifroN also top5 foreign terrans of all time. They won over 65k$ each and many minor tournaments as well. And after queen patch of 2012 and new WCS system, results of most foreign terrans went down. Crush down. Only Bunny on the top.
Do you read? Hider speaks about 2011-2012, anyone who followed the scene at this period knows how hard it was for the T for.
Naniwa, Huk, Mana did way more than every terrans at this time except Thorzain and there were a plethora of very good protoss, way more than T. (ElfiGod, Sase, Titan, Socke, Hasu)
The same goes for Z with Stephano (who did way more than Thorzain and in fact, way more than all the for T achievements of this period, Nerchio, Dimaga, Ret, Idra, Sen were extremely strongs too, once again, Thorzain is the only T who could compete with their achievements.
Foreigners T were really strongs in the beginning of Wol but rapidly fell down, except Thorzain in some short moments (DH valencia or his victories over Polt), any T has been counted in the top 5 for. Well, maybe we could have included Lucifron in july and august 2011 as he was a threat for a very good and focused Stephano but as a student, he never released his full potential in tournaments except at the WCS eu 2012 with a beautiful 3rd place in the core of the BL/infest area.
Kas and Happy always shocked hard in "Lan tournaments".
Brat_ok was fairly beaten by Mana at Asus rog and his defeat in the match for the 3rd place against Stephano was a total no match, otherwise yes, he took one map from Nestea in the Blizzcom.
Even during the HBM period, the zerg eu were doing goods, without MVP who crushed Dimaga, Steph and Tlo, the record would have been pretty bad for T in zvt and Snute was already considered as a nightmare in the MU.
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On July 03 2016 21:43 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 21:07 PolymakTri wrote:On July 03 2016 19:05 Hider wrote:From launch of SC2 WoL in august 2010 till mid of 2012 foreign terrans were not worse than the zergs and protosses. No they were. Zerg still had Idra, Ret, Sen, Stephano and probably others I forgot. Who did terran have in 2011-2012? Thorzain won TSL, but after that he didn't do a lot either. Lucifron, BratOK, Strelok, Kas, Happy, SjoW These guys only performed on the ladder. They were never close to being relevant in actual tournaments unlike the foreign zerg and protoss counterparts. Only ladder? - Jinro won MLG Dallas 2010 and was top4 GSL twice (beat MC on his peak, Ensnare and IdrA on GSL). - ThorZaIN won TSL3 over FruitDealer, MC!!! and NaNiwa. Two GSL champions in a row! And won Dreamhack 2012 Stockholm over Polt! - MorroW (as a terran) won IEM 2010 Season V Cologne - Loner was 2nd at Blizzcon 2010 over HuK and Sen - Naama won Dreamhack 2010 over MaNa - SjoW won IEM Season V European Championships over WhiteRa - Kas was 3rd at TSL3 and WCG2011 - over MarinKing!!! in 1/4 WCG. Also 3rd at IEM Season VI Kiev. Won many minor tournaments (like Ritmix RSL I, Copenhagen Games 2012, HomerJ Cup) and earned 65k$ in tournaments - BratOK won game vs NesTea in one of the most beautifull late TvZ of all time vs NesTea at Blizzcon2011, was 4rd at ASUS ROG Summer 2011 and earned 35k$ on major and minor tournaments until retire in 2012. - Strelok won some minor tournaments like HD World Tournament, Sennheiser Regular Cup and earned ~25k$. Not only ladder, right? - Happy and LucifroN also top5 foreign terrans of all time. They won over 65k$ each and many minor tournaments as well. And after queen patch of 2012 and new WCS system, results of most foreign terrans went down. Crush down. Only Bunny on the top. Do you read? Hider speaks about 2011-2012, anyone who followed the scene at this period knows how hard it was for the T for. Naniwa, Huk, Mana did way more than every terrans at this time except Thorzain and there were a plethora of very good protoss, way more than T. (ElfiGod, Sase, Titan, Socke, Hasu) The same goes for Z with Stephano (who did way more than Thorzain and in fact, way more than all the for T achievements of this period, Nerchio, Dimaga, Ret, Idra, Sen were extremely strongs too, once again, Thorzain is the only T who could compete with their achievements. Foreigners T were really strongs in the beginning of Wol but rapidly fell down, except Thorzain in some short moments (DH valencia or his victories over Polt), any T has been counted in the top 5 for. Well, maybe we could have included Lucifron in july and august 2011 as he was a threat for a very good and focused Stephano but as a student, he never released his full potential in tournaments except at the WCS eu 2012 with a beautiful 3rd place in the core of the BL/infest area. Kas and Happy always shocked hard in "Lan tournaments". Brat_ok was fairly beaten by Mana at Asus rog and his defeat in the match for the 3rd place against Stephano was a total no match, otherwise yes, he took one map from Nestea in the Blizzcom. Even during the HBM period, the zerg eu were doing goods, without MVP who crushed Dimaga, Steph and Tlo, the record would have been pretty bad for T in zvt and Snute was already considered as a nightmare in the MU.
If korean zergs continue to underperform for a few years we can say the same about them and accept it as the way it is.
If a race is underperforming it's either because they are underpowered at a certain level or because their players happen to be worse. If people say foreign terrans happen to be worse they must also accept the possibility that korean zergs happen to be worse.
Don't know what foreign terrans underperforming for a long period has to do with that.
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EPT
