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On July 02 2016 17:57 KatatoniK wrote:
This buff is kind of absurd. I maintain my stance that if the Liberator is the issue then adjust that, not buff a unit that will then impact match-ups outside the troublesome one.
This is really going to hurt PvZ too. Increased queen range is going to affect Phoenix harass which is pretty much still the only viable opening for Toss.
Queens were fine in their pre-buff state. Liberators are problematic across the board. Adept shades are problematic (I'm Protoss and agree the mobility on shades is ridiculous)
In my eyes:
Liberator ground damage needs lowering and the removal of the range upgrade.
Adept shades, there's a few things I think could be better. Longer cooldown on ability. Decrease the movement speed on the shade itself because right now the speed of a moving shade is insanely fast. Stop the shade being able to move through units, this coupled with a longer cooldown on the ability itself should stop games ending when a group of adepts get into a mineral line and help promote better positioning to maximise damage rather than just being able to ignore an army and workers and then just disintegrating the enemy economy.
phoenix is much less common than twilight opening right now in pvz
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On July 02 2016 18:44 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 17:57 KatatoniK wrote:
This buff is kind of absurd. I maintain my stance that if the Liberator is the issue then adjust that, not buff a unit that will then impact match-ups outside the troublesome one.
This is really going to hurt PvZ too. Increased queen range is going to affect Phoenix harass which is pretty much still the only viable opening for Toss.
Queens were fine in their pre-buff state. Liberators are problematic across the board. Adept shades are problematic (I'm Protoss and agree the mobility on shades is ridiculous)
In my eyes:
Liberator ground damage needs lowering and the removal of the range upgrade.
Adept shades, there's a few things I think could be better. Longer cooldown on ability. Decrease the movement speed on the shade itself because right now the speed of a moving shade is insanely fast. Stop the shade being able to move through units, this coupled with a longer cooldown on the ability itself should stop games ending when a group of adepts get into a mineral line and help promote better positioning to maximise damage rather than just being able to ignore an army and workers and then just disintegrating the enemy economy. phoenix is much less common than twilight opening right now in pvz
indeed
which is why I think an adept shade nerf would be a good idea
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Liberator harass puts Terran back on everything. Now it is even less likely to do any damage. Same to banshee.
Spores are already the perfect answer. They are a moving unit, which costs no supply at all and they can not be attacked by the Liberator, but in fact can kill the liberator pretty fast. Now it will burrow at the same speed as a liberator changes to ground attack mode.
--> Ultra got buffed -> Terran needs Liberator -> Liberator got nerfed -> Zergs still complain -> Zerg gets 2 Buffs wich aid the "get ultras" gameplay even more, because Queens now become even more decent on killing medevacs and "everything air".
So instead of "Multitask" you better practise your "end the game inb4 Hive game as Terran now.
RIP interesting gameplay. Welcome 2 base All-In..and get the Bois ready, its CHOO CHOOO time yet again.
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
Just quoting this so it has already at least one occurrence on each page of this thread. Sc2's designers are so caught up with numbers and small changes despite promising the opposite during beta ("we will continue to implement big changes to change the state of the game even long after beta has ended!").
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Wait, i am out of loop?
Blizzard buffs queens AGAIN? Damn, they never learn.
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Russian Federation37 Posts
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please!
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On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please!
Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between
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Russian Federation37 Posts
On July 02 2016 21:29 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between
Yeah, like korean toss and zergs in GomTvT era...
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On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please!
Without looking at it, I already remember Bunny winning vs Byunn two years ago. Heromarine, Major and Kelazhur also won major events this year.
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Russian Federation37 Posts
On July 02 2016 21:47 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Without looking at it, I already remember Bunny winning vs Byunn two years ago. Heromarine, Major and Kelazhur also won major events this year.
No. No one premier tournament.
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On July 02 2016 21:47 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Without looking at it, I already remember Bunny winning vs Byunn two years ago. Heromarine, Major and Kelazhur also won major events this year.
Probably meant premier events
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On July 02 2016 21:29 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please! Well, the thing is foreign Terrans are few and far between
Foreign zergs and protoss just happen to be better.
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well, atleast he is taking action.
i think it is better to change the game constantly than stay 6 months with the game untouched, even if the changes are not that good.
new stuff makes players to use their brain, new playstyles and diferent strategies.
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On July 02 2016 22:10 coolmiyo wrote:
well, atleast he is taking action.
i think it is better to change the game constantly than stay 6 months with the game untouched, even if the changes are not that good.
new stuff makes players to use their brain, new playstyles and diferent strategies.
If the changes favor turtle play i'm not sure it's a good idea
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On July 02 2016 22:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 22:10 coolmiyo wrote:
well, atleast he is taking action.
i think it is better to change the game constantly than stay 6 months with the game untouched, even if the changes are not that good.
new stuff makes players to use their brain, new playstyles and diferent strategies.
If the changes favor turtle play i'm not sure it's a good idea
ikr, but this is the price we have to pay when korean zergs are worse than foreigner zergs.
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On July 02 2016 23:04 coolmiyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 22:19 Charoisaur wrote:On July 02 2016 22:10 coolmiyo wrote:
well, atleast he is taking action.
i think it is better to change the game constantly than stay 6 months with the game untouched, even if the changes are not that good.
new stuff makes players to use their brain, new playstyles and diferent strategies.
If the changes favor turtle play i'm not sure it's a good idea ikr, but this is the price we have to pay when korean zergs are worse than foreigner zergs.
Yeah Scarlett would easily be able to get into Code S and SSL and show the korean Zergs how to play right? Oh wait she couldn't even qualify for Code A and the SSL challenge.
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On July 02 2016 21:24 PolymakTri wrote:
Last foreigner terran in the finals of a major tournament participated in April 2012 - more than 4 years ago. 1532 days ago.
Since then, in the finals was 19 foreigner Zergs and 13 Protosses.
Buff Zergs, Blizzard, please!
Yeah, I am confused aswell.
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On July 02 2016 04:18 Vedeynevin wrote:http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20745685920 the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.
The problem is, it seems that those 'game designers' are terrible at analysing game mechanics; I do not think Tempests, SH or Cyclones are well-designed units.
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These changes are not going to affect ZvP at all aside from possibly bettering Zerg's ability to combat the mass endgame airball and do a queen nydus/drop all-in vs void rays. The time it takes for phoenixes and oracles to fly a distance equal to 1 range is not even enough time for queens to get in an extra shot. Maybe one additional shot if you include the time to leave as well. Phoenixes have never had to avoid queens; they completely ignore them as they go in, get drone kills and scouting info, and leave with only their shields damage. For oracles, there could be some change since they're a lot more fragile, but we're still talking maybe one drone kill less if it's making an effort to skirt around the queen's range. Likewise, moving spores around is not going to matter when fighting phoenixes, or even medivacs; that's strictly an anti-liberator and anti-banshee change (maybe a bit anti-muta too, though the spore will just die past a certain early point).
Queen range is going to affect ZvZ a bit, but probably not in an unhealthy way. It's just more of a defender's advantage if you have a lower muta count or are still building a hydra ball. It won't affect muta map control and it won't really affect the power of a queen all-in. The big place it does matter is vs early ovies, though there's not a big change here overall except in situations where the queen gets under the overlord before it starts shooting.
The big change is definitely just the ability to zone medivacs a little better with queens and kill cliff-libs without walking into their range. The current metagame effectively gives Terran afterburners on his medivacs plus tank drops while removing mutalisks from the game. That is the situation that has led to the necessity of this change, as those abilities for Terran were designed with super mutas in mind, not running around a base full of things that can't shoot up. The best alternative to this would probably be to alter how spire tech works in this matchup; the biggest problem is that its relative timing is just too late to matter with LotV's adjusted economy and timings. Then there's the extreme nature of lib vs muta; get 10 mutas and kill the starport reactor/pick off 1-2 libs before he has 4 liberators and you're in a great spot to win by just making more muta/ling/bane, but get 10 mutas when he started liberator production 30 seconds earlier and you likely lose the game.
I don't think the changes will be bad for game balance at all, but I do think that if the current game is destined to stagnate, these changes will only give it a little shove down that path.
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On July 02 2016 22:10 coolmiyo wrote:
well, atleast he is taking action.
i think it is better to change the game constantly than stay 6 months with the game untouched, even if the changes are not that good.
new stuff makes players to use their brain, new playstyles and diferent strategies.
Pretty bad approach for a game that is designed to be a competitive esport.
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EPT
