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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
Damn. I still really love playing SC2, but I can't really argue any of your specific gripes. All legit.
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
Best comment i've ever read in a community feedback update.
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Fix the tvp design. When a protoss is one basing on a big map, there is no way for the terran to guess what kind of allin is coming (for example going blind turret vs a hidden 4gate blink stalker allin).
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On July 02 2016 10:40 xTJx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER. Best comment i've ever read in a community feedback update.
Yep all true. Design an enjoyable game. Design fun unit interactions. Overall this game is currently frustrating and not fun to watch. These updates consistently show blizzard has no clue and isn't fixing it anytime soon.
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
Yep 100% agree. Buffing queen range is not a good idea. Phoenixes, and banshees, and mutas even in ZvZ...these are some of the only healthy forms of harrassment available to all 3 races.
What do i mean by healthy? I mean that when you play versus muta/phoenix/banshees you feel like you have an opportunity to hold them off.
Mass adept shades, warp prism pick up range, tankivacs, liberators behind mineral lines...all of these things feel incredibly one-sided. The other player just does it, and you have to take it, even if you know they are doing it. Which is not healthy gameplay.
Queen range though...last time they buffed Queen range from 3 -> 5 Terran entirely disappeared from tournament play for over a year (including Korean Terrans where we had the famous "IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA" moment vs brood infestor in a casted match).
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On July 02 2016 10:56 adnap2 wrote:
Fix the tvp design. When a protoss is one basing on a big map, there is no way for the terran to guess what kind of allin is coming (for example going blind turret vs a hidden 4gate blink stalker allin).
Blizzard originally had fixed this at the start of LOTV beta. They made it so you could build a missile turret without an engineering bay.
It was great because it removed a lot of the guessing game/coin flip wins/losses. Wish they would consider stuff like that again.
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On July 02 2016 08:32 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
That's a nifty rhetorical move by Davyie. Instead of focusing on the issue of game design (which is the more important issue) he shifts focus on the game designers, By questioning the ability of a critic to know the abilities of the designers based off metric of designer's in game skill, he effectively puts the "attack" the person rather than the idea. Ethos vs. Logos if you will. In doing so he subtly reinforcing the notion that his game designers do know what they are doing, even if they are not experienced pros, while undercutting several critical position (such as the pro's position vs. the silver league position). Essentially what he is getting at is that our personal experiences with SC2 have no bearing on knowing what's right for the game. Doesn't matter how smart or experienced you are (even though that little random masters comment lends Dayvie credibility, while his argument snidely undermining his credibility), you don't have the right to comment on the designers, which means you don't have the right to comment on the design. Which means, discussing game design ideas would in a way be beneath him, as an actual game designer.
Basically I think an elaborate trolling going on here.
Ironically though if the ability to design the game is not based off of player ability than we all have the right to endless bitch about game design, which in the end still calls the game designer's abilities into question lol. Also if we take Dayvie's message for what it really says: I think it saying that no one really knows how to design a game.
Sorry this is not that well written.
He got his jimmies in a bunch because i posted a thread on the battle.net forums about a potential mod with changes the community has been asking for forever. Well to be fair, it's not just me that's taking it into my own hands at this point, i've seen and read many threads from other people in the community that are throwing out ideas and working on putting out balance mods since blizzard seems to not be risking any changes at all.
With things like:
-8 armor ultra
-adept shades
-warp prism range
-liberator range
-cyclones
-mech viability
-parasitic bomb
-ling/bane/muta viability vs T
-invulnerable nydus worm
He basically wrote that post so he can write off anything you or i or anyone else in the community says because he can indeed claim we don't know what we're doing but he knows what he's doing regardless of his skill or game knowledge lol.
The thing is, if they knew what they were doing...the above list of issues would all have had fixes/changes by now. It's really disheartening we just keep getting PR "updates" and not actual balance tweaks/changes over the course of weeks+months.
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He got his jimmies in a bunch because i posted a thread on the battle.net forums about a potential mod with changes the community has been asking for forever. And thank God you have nothing to do with design of this game. While you have identified problems spot on, your solutions are not even biased, but simply crazy.
Even fellow Terrans called it out. On Bnet forums. That speaks for itself.
It's funny how Blizzard went from "we're going to be testing major design changes after the beta end" to "we are only going to implement small changes to the game instead of major overhauls".
Tankivacs, Warp Prism pick up, invincible Nydus - none of that is going to be removed guys. Spore Crawler root time changes is what we will be getting people. Better get used to it.
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
You might be the right, but the question is - was Starcraft ever a game where mechanics like the ones you've listed weren't a part of it? Was Brood War or early Starcraft 2 expansions such games where attacking and defending was equally hard, and didn't require a massive amount of mechanical effort(especially on the defender's side)? (I have played little of BW so somebody tell me.)
I cannot tell if fixing the problems you've listed would fix Starcraft 2, or simply make it a completely different game. What if those are the things that make Starcraft what it is? One could say that the need for super fast and efficient mechanics is what makes Starcraft unappealing to very many(Brood War was even worse, requiring a minimum of 300-350 apm at the highest level), but the pure difficulty of playing the game is the defining factor of Starcraft. Were units in Brood War so well designed that scenarios similar to what JackONeill listed never occurred?
Brood War was never truly popular anywhere outside of Korea, and Starcraft 2 was only popular in the west for a year and a half after WoL's release. I feel as if Starcraft 2 is losing popularity simply for what it is as a game, not as a result of some specific decisions on the side of Blizzard. It's possible that trying to 'fix' the things you've listed would simply make Starcraft not Starcraft.
(Disclaimer: I am simply trying to contribute to the conversation, not saying that what I wrote is 100% correct. Please feel free to provide counterpoints.)
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On July 02 2016 12:12 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +He got his jimmies in a bunch because i posted a thread on the battle.net forums about a potential mod with changes the community has been asking for forever. And thank God you have nothing to do with design of this game. While you have identified problems spot on, your solutions are not even biased, but simply crazy. Even fellow Terrans called it out. On Bnet forums. That speaks for itself. It's funny how Blizzard went from "we're going to be testing major design changes after the beta end" to "we are only going to implement small changes to the game instead of major overhauls". Tankivacs, Warp Prism pick up, invincible Nydus - none of that is going to be removed guys. Spore Crawler root time changes is what we will be getting people. Better get used to it.
Actually, most of the replies from sensible people on bnet are agreeing with me (there's very few, we all know the bnet forum is basically just full of trolls). It's just the bronze bnet troll posters (as usual) that don't understand the game.
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On July 02 2016 12:54 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 12:12 Nazara wrote:He got his jimmies in a bunch because i posted a thread on the battle.net forums about a potential mod with changes the community has been asking for forever. And thank God you have nothing to do with design of this game. While you have identified problems spot on, your solutions are not even biased, but simply crazy. Even fellow Terrans called it out. On Bnet forums. That speaks for itself. It's funny how Blizzard went from "we're going to be testing major design changes after the beta end" to "we are only going to implement small changes to the game instead of major overhauls". Tankivacs, Warp Prism pick up, invincible Nydus - none of that is going to be removed guys. Spore Crawler root time changes is what we will be getting people. Better get used to it. Actually, most of the replies from sensible people on bnet are agreeing with me (there's very few, we all know the bnet forum is basically just full of trolls). It's just the bronze bnet troll posters (as usual) that don't understand the game.
I'm pretty sure anyone who agrees with you is joking but I guess it's hard to see the truth when your head is so far up your own ass
User was warned for this post
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Of all these issues, I think Terran having nothing but Liberators and maybe Ravens to fall back on is the most glaring. I know team games don't matter much, but it so evident there (and I play random so I roll Terran sometimes). If a team game goes late and Protoss get Tempest and High Templar with Archons and Immortals, there is nothing Terran can do, and the same can be said about Corrupter/Viper/Broodlord/Infestor. It is such a helpless feeling knowing that Thors and Battlecruisers will do nothing for you.
On July 02 2016 12:44 NMxSardines wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER. You might be the right, but the question is - was Starcraft ever a game where mechanics like the ones you've listed weren't a part of it? Was Brood War or early Starcraft 2 expansions such games where attacking and defending was equally hard, and didn't require a massive amount of mechanical effort(especially on the defender's side)? (I have played little of BW so somebody tell me.) I cannot tell if fixing the problems you've listed would fix Starcraft 2, or simply make it a completely different game. What if those are the things that make Starcraft what it is? One could say that the need for super fast and efficient mechanics is what makes Starcraft unappealing to very many(Brood War was even worse, requiring a minimum of 300-350 apm at the highest level), but the pure difficulty of playing the game is the defining factor of Starcraft. Were units in Brood War so well designed that scenarios similar to what JackONeill listed never occurred?Brood War was never truly popular anywhere outside of Korea, and Starcraft 2 was only popular in the west for a year and a half after WoL's release. I feel as if Starcraft 2 is losing popularity simply for what it is as a game, not as a result of some specific decisions on the side of Blizzard. It's possible that trying to 'fix' the things you've listed would simply make Starcraft not Starcraft. (Disclaimer: I am simply trying to contribute to the conversation, not saying that what I wrote is 100% correct. Please feel free to provide counterpoints.)
What does Broodwar have to do with what he said? Broodwar had problematic interactions too, just not nearly to the level SC2 has.
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On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER.
Well said.
I do wonder whether things like shade and bile could be brought back into a hard to use, but high reward category if the cooldown was much longer, or even if the ability had charges instead of a cooldown. We don't argue about stim or forcefield being too easy to use because they clear drawbacks and if you can bait it, you've gain an advantage. Using a shade however doesn't really cost anything and it's basically better to do it as much as you can.
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This doesn't make Zerg midgame more viable, it will just make rushing hive a bit easier.
Really don't understand these changes.
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On July 02 2016 15:18 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2016 06:47 JackONeill wrote:
The massive drop in playerbase means blizz isn't designing the game well, it's not about wether the balance team knows how to play the game. Ravager spamming ability, adept shade meaning they can threaten two mineral lines at once, disruptor being hit or miss BS, liberator doing the tank's job and therefore provoking design issues because it flies, viper's PB, etc...
It's about how easy it is to perform something against how hard it is to react to it. It's easy to siege liberators. It's easy to spamm bile. It's easy to warp adepts, and shade in another mineral line. But it's so much harder to react to it. And because it has a lot to do with worker harass, it's even more frustrating because you can loose so many workers and have no option to come back into the game.
That's the real issues the game faces. That's why TvZ is "either terran wins before late game or he dies". That's why TvP is about bio killing stalkers to prevent them from killing liberators that kill every single protoss unit but the stalker. That's why once protoss cuts the map in PvZ with tempest, canons and HTs, the game is over.
To fix this (even though i know it's pointless to point out the obvious) : rework units that induces very onesided scenarii. Tempest being able to hit from 15 range with revelation, while being extremely massable? It's an issue. Ultras being so cost efficient in TvZ terran has to stay in the air? It's an issue. Tankivac harass being overwhelming and breaking defender's advantage? It's an issue. Liberators sieging mineral lines so easily but the opponent has to spend a lot of APM to defend? It's an issue. Terran being pigeonholed into one comp per matchup? It's an issue.
Work on that. Work on the frustrating BS that make players leave the game. THAT'S THE ISSUES THE GAME FACE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT DK'S LEVEL ON THE LADDER. Well said. I do wonder whether things like shade and bile could be brought back into a hard to use, but high reward category if the cooldown was much longer, or even if the ability had charges instead of a cooldown. We don't argue about stim or forcefield being too easy to use because they clear drawbacks and if you can bait it, you've gain an advantage. Using a shade however doesn't really cost anything and it's basically better to do it as much as you can.
I think stim is too strong, it always has been imo. Forcefields have always been a problem but because of Adepts (and Pylons) Protoss doesn't need them as much anymore. The stupid offensive one forcefield on the ramp to block them all is still possible though
Edit: FF's might make a comeback with the comeback of the deathball/ Colossus btw
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For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.
That example would be a bad design decision imo, since game design is not solely about keeping the balance of winrates, but as you mentioned about understanding the game mechanics and making the gameplay feel good.
Regarding the ultralisk, you always need to keep in mind, that it is a melee unit, that can be attacked way before it itself can deal damage. This leads to kiting being an effective way to deal with it. I have the impression, that even now marines and marauders deal cost efficiently with ultras (though it takes a lot of micro, but when you micro them properly, they are good). Add the medivac and the ability to leave a fight whenever the terran wants and it gets even more cost efficient. If ultras armor was reduced I don`t see them dealing enough damage and i would rather have them with high armor and lower damage than lower armor and higher damage as I prefer longer fights in which you can react. A different path to take would be to reduce the size of the ultras when nerfing their armor, which would also improve their pathing, but take away its scary overwhelming appearance. So before any nerf is done on the ultra, I would like to see a proper analysis of their cost efficiency against a (maybe even non-ghost) unit composition and not (only) a balance-related argument.
Regarding the liberator, I think independently of the balance you can say, that it is too strong of a unit, which counters light air and has a more powerful ground attack than even the tank (add the current enormous harass potential on top of that). So a nerf on that part should be in order regardless of the current win-rate. If the win-rate is out of balance because of that, other buffs should be considered. As a side note, I would like the liberator ground attack to have charges (around 5), that regenerate rather slowly, so the terran needs to think about when and how to use them and the opponent can use micro to waste the liberators shots.
So I would indeed like you to start a discussion about game design and to give your opinions on the matter. (Btw Dayvie saying, that game skill is not necessarily relevant to game-design skill, not only puts him and the people working on the game design in a better position, but also the community feedback that comes from non-pros. All he's saying is design decisions should optimally be judged by people with a good game-design skill, he's not saying, that only people at Blizzard have that skill.)
Also, did anyone suggest an increase of the spore crawler range instead of that of the queen? Imo it makes more sense to have high-ranged static defense than a high-ranged moving unit, the purpose of which should not even be to have a good attack. Defense is something that you have to commit to and that gives you an advantage if used with the right timing due to scouting. With slightly improved static defense you could think about slightly increasing the costs, so that it is inefficient to randomly build it, but gives an edge otherwise.
To improve air defense, rather than buffing the defending units, you could as Snute pointed out also reduce the speed/acceleration of the attacking flying units, so they are exposed to the opponent's attacks for a longer period of time due to their lower speed, rather than due to an increased range. Same as defense, harassment should be a commitment that the aggressor has to make.
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Good buffs that should help Z in both match-ups.
I still think some kind of adept nerf will need to happen at some point. The thing that makes the most sense is increasing the shade cooldown : it doesn't affect their power as fighting units but tones down their -currently far too strong- harass abilities.
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On July 02 2016 11:31 avilo wrote:
With things like:
-8 armor ultra
-adept shades
-warp prism range
-liberator range
-cyclones
-mech viability
-parasitic bomb
-ling/bane/muta viability vs T
-invulnerable nydus worm
good list in fact. Add tempest supply increase to it. I still have hope they'll dig into those issues after november, especially since most of those things (in fact all of them except mech and LBM) can be dealt with with very simple and sensible measures.
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This buff is kind of absurd. I maintain my stance that if the Liberator is the issue then adjust that, not buff a unit that will then impact match-ups outside the troublesome one.
This is really going to hurt PvZ too. Increased queen range is going to affect Phoenix harass which is pretty much still the only viable opening for Toss.
Queens were fine in their pre-buff state. Liberators are problematic across the board. Adept shades are problematic (I'm Protoss and agree the mobility on shades is ridiculous)
In my eyes:
Liberator ground damage needs lowering and the removal of the range upgrade.
Adept shades, there's a few things I think could be better. Longer cooldown on ability. Decrease the movement speed on the shade itself because right now the speed of a moving shade is insanely fast. Stop the shade being able to move through units, this coupled with a longer cooldown on the ability itself should stop games ending when a group of adepts get into a mineral line and help promote better positioning to maximise damage rather than just being able to ignore an army and workers and then just disintegrating the enemy economy.
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ok, and now make mech viable
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EPT
