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United States12240 Posts
On June 23 2016 12:53 ZixseN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2016 10:09 Excalibur_Z wrote:On June 23 2016 08:59 Frawz wrote:
I saw a video for what blizzard has plans for the ladder revamp and i thought i might as well throw this is to see what everyone thinks about it.
Ladder Points?
so what do they actually count for ? well you get ladder points and based on other players in your division you are placed in 25th 10th 2nd etc etc , but after its all said and done you have milestones that you can look back and see how you done in the past. pretty simple
i think to get people to possible play more they should allow once a season is over say i finished with 1250 ladder points. they go to our "B.net Bank" where we can use those ladder points to buy things like "portraits , skins , animations , custom profiles t-shirts, blizzard key chains for example , chat room banners , etc etc . of course these points won't carry on to our next season as ladder points , we will as usual just revert back to zero as normal. but they will be added to our "b.net bank"account. Imagine grinding out the ladder not just for promotions but also get credits for some blizzard loot!
I just feel that this will give an incentive for people to ladder more!! what do you all think? So this is going to sound kind of lame, but points are there primarily to drive activity. I made some suggestions for improvement to the ladder system which were mostly centered around ranking directly by MMR. The problem with that is that once you reach your skill potential, your MMR kind of stagnates (it might hover +/-100 of your potential, or however wide your personal uncertainty is), and when things stagnate, they become boring. I didn't really have a good answer for how to drive activity and keep people interested in coming back. That's why the bonus pool still exists, and that's why points still exist. They're not really connected to anything useful like promotion (except for the bonus pool in determining GM eligibility) but they still give you a more immediate-term goal of "if I get 10 more points I can be rank 4 in my division instead of rank 5", and those little "mini-goals" can push some players into playing one more game, which is honestly fine. But as you said on the ladder threads "Once your MMR reaches a certain threshold you may be eligible for promotion." How about the ladder point matter on "if I get 10 more points I can be rank 4 in my division instead of rank 5" ?
It's a psychological thing. If the player above you has 1000 points and you have 990, you think "I'll just play one more game to get those points" even if they don't result in a promotion or anything beyond a temporary sense of accomplishment. "I'll get to rank 5 today then stop." "I'll play until my bonus pool is gone." "I'll play until I get to 90 wins then stop." "I'll stop when I hit 3 losses in a row." These are small incremental goals that everyone has to some degree as they play.
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They finally added things players have been asking since the launch of WoL.
Great, I guess...
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Hell, it's about time!
Enough said. 
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MMR per race will be awesome.
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Showing MMR is great, but I think it can be very frustrating as well. Thought I'd like it when they started showing losses again. Turns out I didnt. I would love it if they were to move those MMR numbers to a tab that doesnt show immediately or if they could give us an option to hide the numbers. It's really hard to play the game for fun if that MMR rating keeps showing you how bad you are.
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So great! Can't wait for it to be implemented!
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On June 23 2016 12:54 iamkaokao wrote:Having your MMR displayed isnt minimal , who cares about leagues and splits if you can see their MMR? , it goes up and down accordingly to your opponent MMR meaning bad diamonds will have terrible MMRs even if they are in the top 10 basically divisions are irrelevant if you can see their real level (MMR) , the higher the MMR your opponent has the more points you will get , and viceversa
Who cares about your MMR if you can't compare it with other people's MMR?
MMR is a meaningless number on its own. Your MMR is 2500. What does that mean? How skilled are you? Knowing your MMR says nothing about that.
In the score screen your MMR is 2500, your opponents is 2600, a difference of 100. What does this difference mean? Is that 100 a big difference in skill or a small difference in skill? Again, that difference of 100 is meaningless without looking at the MMR distribution.
You can only see your own MMR, so you can't compare MMR with other people that are ranked. Thus, it is not useful. What matters is percentile of MMR, how your MMR compares with other people's MMR.
At the very least, everyone's MMR should be displayed, like how everyone's points are displayed.
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On June 23 2016 11:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2016 10:46 paralleluniverse wrote:
D
2. Points, which is mostly progression based, not skill based stays.
3. Bonus pool, which is what makes points progression based, also stays.
if the bonus pool is spend the ladder points are a quite accurate reflection of skill. Show nested quote +On June 23 2016 10:46 paralleluniverse wrote:
These changes are needed:
1. Remove divisions and rank everyone from the same league tier together.
2. Display the MMR of all players in the ranking.
3. Allow the ranking to be sortable by MMR and filterable by active players.
4. Remove bonus pool or at least reduce it my an extremely significant amount.
5. Increase the number of league tiers, to 5 or 10.
6. Display percentile of MMR. those changes would be terrible and would make laddering extremely unmotivating. what encourages you more to ladder actively? Seeing you're 2nd in your division or seeing you're 2000th from all players in the league.
Bonus pool is never spent for everyone, so it's inaccurate. There is nothing unmotivating about displaying MMR for everyone. Points are already displayed for everyone. "2nd in your division" is a lie. There's also no reason why ranks such as 1 to 5437 can't simply be rescaled to 1 to 100 by simply dividing by 5437.
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On June 23 2016 15:51 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2016 12:54 iamkaokao wrote:1. Leagues are split into 3.
2. Your MMR is displayed.
3. GM updates daily. Having your MMR displayed isnt minimal , who cares about leagues and splits if you can see their MMR? , it goes up and down accordingly to your opponent MMR meaning bad diamonds will have terrible MMRs even if they are in the top 10 basically divisions are irrelevant if you can see their real level (MMR) , the higher the MMR your opponent has the more points you will get , and viceversa Who cares about your MMR if you can't compare it with other people's MMR? MMR is a meaningless number on its own. Your MMR is 2500. What does that mean? How skilled are you? Knowing your MMR says nothing about that. In the score screen your MMR is 2500, your opponents is 2600, a difference of 100. What does this difference mean? Is that 100 a big difference in skill or a small difference in skill? Again, that difference of 100 is meaningless without looking at the MMR distribution. You can only see your own MMR, so you can't compare MMR with other people that are ranked. Thus, it is not useful. What matters is percentile of MMR, how your MMR compares with other people's MMR. At the very least, everyone's MMR should be displayed, like how everyone's points are displayed.
it is shown the mmr of both players... watch the video
you have never experienced MMR have you? why do you talk about something you dont understand.. i played rts with MMR for over 10 years... people get stuck between 2500 - 2600 for years sometimes.. to give a random number example.. 100 points difference means alot , because you have to consistently beat people around 2500-2600 you will realise that more often than not you will actually go down in the number.. unless you get better.. because loses count much more in this system , its not like divisions that you GRIND points.. you lose more points than you gain with this.. unless you beat someone with much higher MMR and gain little to nothing against lower MMR
so this way noobs wont be able to beat 10 bad diamonds to get into top 10 , they have to beat a 2700or a 2600 to get enough points.... and you have to actively beat higher MMR players to progress as well.. which will be much harder this way people are punished for losing .
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This is awesome. I really like what the blizzard team is doing here.
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On March 28 2016 04:04 Excalibur_Z wrote:I decided to create a mockup of what I imagine the new ladder will look like. I'll explain the differences: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VTKxnxs.png) 1. No bonus pool. 2. "Points" replaced by MMR. 3. Tier specified directly in the header. 4. Icon representing highest tier achieved for the season next to each player's name
It is interesting to note every guess from this post a few months ago about what Blizzard would change about how ranks will be displayed proved to be wrong. As I predicted, they changed nothing about how ranks are displayed, they just added MMR on top.
But it's even worse than that, because I was at least expecting that everyone's MMR will be displayed, but in fact, only your MMR is displayed, making MMR meaningless because it cannot be compared with other people's.
To see whether a ladder system is fit for purpose, ask if it can answer 2 very simple questions:
1. How skilled am I?
2. How skilled am I compared to you?
This ladder "revamp" cannot even answer these 2 most elementary, utterly basic, questions.
It is, therefore, worthless.
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Just get the ladder system of PGTour/ICCUP...
So many people left the game because of the brokenly morronish ladder system, and now they are coming back to the roots...
BRAVO BLIZZARD
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On June 23 2016 16:07 iamkaokao wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2016 15:51 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 23 2016 12:54 iamkaokao wrote:1. Leagues are split into 3.
2. Your MMR is displayed.
3. GM updates daily. Having your MMR displayed isnt minimal , who cares about leagues and splits if you can see their MMR? , it goes up and down accordingly to your opponent MMR meaning bad diamonds will have terrible MMRs even if they are in the top 10 basically divisions are irrelevant if you can see their real level (MMR) , the higher the MMR your opponent has the more points you will get , and viceversa Who cares about your MMR if you can't compare it with other people's MMR? MMR is a meaningless number on its own. Your MMR is 2500. What does that mean? How skilled are you? Knowing your MMR says nothing about that. In the score screen your MMR is 2500, your opponents is 2600, a difference of 100. What does this difference mean? Is that 100 a big difference in skill or a small difference in skill? Again, that difference of 100 is meaningless without looking at the MMR distribution. You can only see your own MMR, so you can't compare MMR with other people that are ranked. Thus, it is not useful. What matters is percentile of MMR, how your MMR compares with other people's MMR. At the very least, everyone's MMR should be displayed, like how everyone's points are displayed. it is shown the mmr of both players... watch the video you have never experienced MMR have you? why do you talk about something you dont understand.. i played rts with MMR for over 10 years... people get stuck between 2500 - 2600 for years sometimes.. to give a random number example.. 100 points difference means alot , because you have to consistently beat people around 2500-2600 you will realise that more often than not you will actually go down in the number.. unless you get better.. because loses count much more in this system , its not like divisions that you GRIND points.. you lose more points than you gain with this.. unless you beat someone with much higher MMR and gain little to nothing against lower MMR so this way noobs wont be able to beat 10 bad diamonds to get into top 10 , they have to beat a master or a top diamond to get enough points.... and you have to actively beat higher MMR players to progress as well.. which will be much harder this way people are punished for losing .
Read the post, I know the MMR of the opposing player is shown, that's exactly where the 2500 v 2600 MMR example comes from. But you can't compare the MMR of any two players. For example, I can't compare my MMR to yours, if I see two people in a chat room, I can't compare who has higher MMR, if I have MMR of 2500, I can't tell how many players I'm better or worse than.
There is nothing canonical about the assertion that a 100 difference in MMR is "a lot". The difference in skill for a 100 difference in MMR depends on the scale they use. If a win against an equally skilled opponent gives 1, then a 100 difference is huge, if it gives 100, then a 100 difference is very small.
In some games, MMR ranges from 0 to ~3500, in other games MMR ranges from 0 to ~8500. In the former, 100 is big, in the latter, 100 is small.
So the point remains, without knowing the distribution of MMR it is not clear what a 100 MMR difference means, and MMR is meaningless without being able to compare it to others.
It's also not true a loss counts more than a win. The amount that MMR changes after a loss or a win depends on the MMR of the opponent. If you win against a high MMR opponent and lose to a similar MMR opponent, then the win counts more than the loss.
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really great change for casuals, the more promotions there are, the better. people like me, who play max 2 games a day severly suffered from the smaller player base - SC2 became more skill demanding. This season i really struggeled and finally didn`t managed to get gold, and 2 years ago gold was so easy to win... so now I will have at least 5,6 promotions a season because of the tiers - definitely more fun
thx Blizzard
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On June 23 2016 16:16 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2016 04:04 Excalibur_Z wrote:I decided to create a mockup of what I imagine the new ladder will look like. I'll explain the differences: 1. No bonus pool. 2. "Points" replaced by MMR. 3. Tier specified directly in the header. 4. Icon representing highest tier achieved for the season next to each player's name It is interesting to note every guess from this post a few months ago about what Blizzard would change about how ranks will be displayed proved to be wrong. As I predicted, they changed nothing about how ranks are displayed, they just added MMR on top. But it's even worse than that, because I was at least expecting that everyone's MMR will be displayed, but in fact, only your MMR is displayed, making MMR meaningless because it cannot be compared with other people's. To see whether a ladder system is fit for purpose, ask if it can answer 2 very simple questions: 1. How skilled am I? 2. How skilled am I compared to you? This ladder "revamp" cannot even answer these 2 most elementary, utterly basic, questions. It is, therefore, worthless.
There is no ladder system in the world which can tell you how "skilled" you are, but I bet there are ladder systems who lure you into the thought that they show this to you (e.g. the WoW Arena Ladder System). It may tell you that from the relation of wins and losses you had you are in the top X% of the playerbase but the ladder does not care about how you play.
There are many ways to climb the ladder and increase your skill in several parts of the game (the usual stuff like micro, mechanics, decision making,... ). In StarCraft 2 you might be playing all-ins all day long and it is fair way to do so. I once read that koreans are actually starting to learn StarCraft2 with the concept of playing all-ins and learning a simple, straightforward gameplan first before moving on to more complex macro games.
However, there is no ladder in the world that would reflect on how you play games and therefore, it can only give you a small statement about your skill or none at all.
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On June 23 2016 16:33 Liox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2016 16:16 paralleluniverse wrote:On March 28 2016 04:04 Excalibur_Z wrote:I decided to create a mockup of what I imagine the new ladder will look like. I'll explain the differences: 1. No bonus pool. 2. "Points" replaced by MMR. 3. Tier specified directly in the header. 4. Icon representing highest tier achieved for the season next to each player's name It is interesting to note every guess from this post a few months ago about what Blizzard would change about how ranks will be displayed proved to be wrong. As I predicted, they changed nothing about how ranks are displayed, they just added MMR on top. But it's even worse than that, because I was at least expecting that everyone's MMR will be displayed, but in fact, only your MMR is displayed, making MMR meaningless because it cannot be compared with other people's. To see whether a ladder system is fit for purpose, ask if it can answer 2 very simple questions: 1. How skilled am I? 2. How skilled am I compared to you? This ladder "revamp" cannot even answer these 2 most elementary, utterly basic, questions. It is, therefore, worthless. There is no ladder system in the world which can tell you how "skilled" you are, but I bet there are ladder systems who lure you into the thought that they show this to you (e.g. the WoW Arena Ladder System). It may tell you that from the relation of wins and losses you had you are in the top X% of the playerbase but the ladder does not care about how you play. There are many ways to climb the ladder and increase your skill in several parts of the game (the usual stuff like micro, mechanics, decision making,... ). In StarCraft 2 you might be playing all-ins all day long and it is fair way to do so. I once read that koreans are actually starting to learn StarCraft2 with the concept of playing all-ins and learning a simple, straightforward gameplan first before moving on to more complex macro games. However, there is no ladder in the world that would reflect on how you play games and therefore, it can only give you a small statement about your skill or none at all.
How skilled you are is always relative to others. If you all-in every game and because of that, you can beat 95% of players, then your skill is top 95%.
The WoW Arena system is a good example. Unlike this "ladder revamp", it displays MMR for all players, and thus you can see how skill you are compared to everyone else and even work out your MMR percentile. Similarly with the Overwatch ladder revamp. Both those games can answer the question of:
1. How skilled am I?
2. How skilled am I compared to you?
This ladder "revamp" cannot.
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Austria24422 Posts
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So many people left the game because of the brokenly morronish ladder system, and now they are coming back to the roots...
I hope so, but I really doubt it. I think this exciting ladder change comes a bit too late..Ofc I don't know the exact numbers but I believe that too many people already left the game and found a new "main" game..
And tbh I dont really see this "ladder revamp" as such a big deal to justifiy taking them months/years to develop.. Like someone already mentioned, look at Overwatch: complete turnaround on the ranking Systems within couple of months..
I think the SC2 hypetrain already left the Station 
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EPT
