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On June 11 2016 16:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote:
I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch! Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
How did the Marauder get nerfed?
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On June 11 2016 21:27 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 16:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote:
I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch! Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly. How did the Marauder get nerfed?
reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1.
so carapace is twice as effective against marauders.
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On June 11 2016 21:30 DalaiiLameR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 21:27 geokilla wrote:On June 11 2016 16:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote:
I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch! Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly. How did the Marauder get nerfed? reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1. so carapace is twice as effective against marauders.
Guardian shield too, which is why gateway units now beat pure bio.
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On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote:
just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc.
It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well...
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ZvT is quite unforgiving, but for both sides.
As I have mentioned already several times I see the power of bio as the source of all issues. E.g. when you look back at WOL, bio is the reason TvP evolved solely around bio vs. colossi vs. vikings and who knocks out which hard counter first. Now its gotten a bit more diverse but the fundamental issue with that hasn't been fixed at all. The result is a fest of hardcounters and alot of overpowered units that stand against each other of all races.
Therefore every little tweak in balance has huge leverage and the potential to turn things upside down.
Buffing larva inject back to 4 is bad for the following reason: higher volatility in all matchups.
Examples (taking zvz as it is the easiest but applies to all matchups):
1)
player a builds 4 roaches, player b builds 4 drones, player a attacks, player a wins
is more volatile than:
player a builds 3 roaches, player b builds 3 drones, player a attacks, player a wins
2)
player a builds 4 roaches, player b builds 4 drones, player a doesn't attack, player b wins
is more volatile than:
player a builds 3 roaches, player b builds 3 drones, player a doesn't attack, player b wins
Buffing larva will lead to more random play and outcome of games and skill of players making less difference. It will allow players ahead to pull further ahead quicker than now. It will also allow zergs to recover a bit faster, but it is the wrong way to go: In order to allow better recovery for a race it is the wrong way to buff the mechanic that also allows them to pull ahead more.
The right thing to do: Nerfing the mechanic that allows the other races to pull ahead so much instead.
Nerfing the mule by another 20-30% is the right choice here.
Other issues in current meta:
- adepts still too strong
- immortals still need to be observed
- lurkers seem overall too strong but currently I see few options for change
- mothership should be removed or nerfed, it makes skytoss way too invulnerable
- tankivacs still a stupid mechanic, in situations zergs can't kill or force away a single tank or two for minutes, escpecially in stituations when behind. Also been observing this issue in teamgames (3on3+), where a terran can drop tanks left and right even between several players and keep the opponent team busy for a long time in some situations. I don't see a valid fix for this in current meta as well as terran needs that right now in order to not be punished too hard for other existing stupid mechanics.
- ravagers feel a bit strong but only in some situations, I think a unit of that potential and volatile outcomes should not get in the game before the hydralisk
The example of tankivacs shows perfectly why SC2 balance design is not good. Bad mechanics are in the game and need to be kept in the game to make up for other bad game mechanics.
I suggest the following changes for the current meta following from that:
- nerf of mule effect by another 20-30% instead of buffing larva
- nerf of adept vanilla, or:
- nerf of adept upgrade, or both: probably attack speed nerf is the thing to look at
- nerf of lurker projectile speed (spikes moving way slower (50%) across the distance)
- removal of tankivacs (still would go for it in order to force blizzard to come up with other soultions for tanks and mech)
- warp prism load in range must be reduced by a bit
In general I would prefer an overall overhaul of some basic mechanics of the game in a way that I have mentioned several times before and don't wanna repeat here fully: Starting off with making marauder a t3 unit, nerfing early bio hardcounters then, changing lurkers and ravagers position (and adapt them to their new position in strength and price), potentially changing hydra and roach position too, etc.
Still wanna add some thoughts to that:
I am 100% convinced that SC2 needs such a reduction of punishing mechanics in order to create a feeling of fun and satisfaction for players, which is the basis for success on all levels of play.
The root of the problem is terran bio. I like to take examples of WOL in this issue as there it is the most visible. The issue exists still but blizzard has disguised it over the years so that it is less visible now but still fundamental.
A composition of bio is so strong, that the other races needed to get hardcounters to it. That creates punishing gameplay and results in the loss of players along all levels and stages of play.
Bio:
- with marine: best anti ground and anti air dps per ressource in the game, costs no gas
- with stimpack: almost highest mobility of all units
- with medivac: infinite use of stimpacks, drops without risks, harrass without commitment and delay of other tech, further increases mobility to absurdity with the given dps of the units
- with marauder: provides enough tankability to the army
Altogether:
Highest combination of dps, mobility and tankability of any basic unit army in the game. It is fucking ridiculous.
Result:
1. From the beginning of SC2 the whole game evolves around bio vs. its hardcounters, which needed to be given to the other races to compete with bio at all.
2. Within the terran race nothing can compete with bio. Mech isn't that bad, bio is just too strong and the counters to bio also counter mech way too well. Therefore mech is not viable (due to bio). Mech on its own can't be pushed to the same level as bio as it then would create stupid imbalance in combination with bio.
Further Results:
3. These hardcounters create punishing gameplay everywhere. Battles are about if vikings take out 1-2 colossi fast enough so that bio can roll over the rest of a protoss army or not and then the hard counter of colossi rolls over the bio army. A game that evolves around such mechanics certainly is dependent alot on luck and lucky positionings and timings. A game of 15-20 minutes can be decided solely within the 2 seconds of an engagement if colossi are 1-2 tiles too far out on screen and being taken out or not. This is what nobody wants and what drives players away from this strategy game. This is not about strategy but solely about macroing up the quickest and then have everything positioned perfectly in the first few seconds of a fight.
Again I use WOL examples for better visibility. The same fundament is subject to LOTV however. Now we have funny shit going on like 30 adepts shading on a bio army an force gg. Stuff that everybody hopes for when playing or watching pro-sc2 I guess! Good work! I guess it was much wiser to introduce this stupid stuff in countless nubers in the mindset of buffs over nerfs instead of simply fixing the basic issues that already came up in the very beginning of WOL when terran was ridiculously overpowered and won games with "bit by bit-prime" moves or 2-4 helions moving in. Instead of toning down stuff they created more and more overpowered options for the other races and here we are moving in circles not getting the fundamental issue of SC2 under control. And you don't need to be a visionary to say what hasn't been fixed within the past 5 years wont be fixed in the next 5 years if means, tools and mindsets don't change.
And let me tell you one secret. When I talk to other people who made Starcraft what it is today, broodwar players from the first hours, they all exactly come to this result: SC2 is not BW, issues wont ever get fixed, I rather spend my time with other games, here we go, gg no re. And the thing is, the more you moved on this path the more stuff you created that cannot or can hardly be reversed. Everybody with an idea sees, recognizes and finally has to accept this. It leaves not much hope and not much else than turning back to the game. Just think of my idea of putting a fundamental hole into bio by removing the marauder and moving it to tier 3: Why would we need the adept then? What to do with ravagers? They counter tanks way too well and too early so that they need tankivac option. And so on.
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Let me add one example to back up the argument of loss of players of all levels. An example for noob WOL play:
1.
- Terran builds mass bio and forgets to build vikings
- he attacks protoss and recognizes that protoss has already 5 colossi + some basic units.
- he loses the fight without even killing one colossi as everything is being burned through within seconds.
2.
- Protoss builds alot of gateway units
- he attack terran and has to find out that nothing can even remotely face the dps and survivability of bio.
- he loses the fight with only killing about 15-25% of the bio army while losing everything himself even tho they both had same army value and a-moved into each other.
Do you seriously think this is good game design and ppl enjoy the abuse of hardcounters for years which leave almost no room for even little variations?
The right conclusions for gameplay changes would have been:
- bio in the first place should not be able to wreck everything that has no colossi mixed in that much, therefore we need to nerf bio
- after that we now don't need the colossi to be that strong anymore
Resulting in:
- smoother transitions
- less punishing gameplay
- more potential of players to make the fight happen in their way than only depending on the right choice of units and perfect positioning at the first 2 seconds of fights.
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Is David Kim sure that the Zergs struggle with zvt early & mid game not because of liberators?
It basically forces Zerg to turtle and go roach ravager every game
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Is David Kim sure that the Zergs struggle with zvt early & mid game not because of liberators?
It basically forces Zerg to turtle and go roach ravager every game
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The liberator should be removed from the game twice indeed
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On June 11 2016 21:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote:
just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc. It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well...
in case of terran - okay.
in case of toss - not really. yes, cb was nerfed (or not? someone mentioned in here, that it was a buff for cb). anyway, because of pylon overcharge, toss can take their 3rd much faster than in hots and that means, more probe production than in hots/wol, so worker production should at minimum be on pair with the production in hots/wol.
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Dark has thrown two matches today to verify, how Zergs need a nerf quickly.
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On June 11 2016 23:01 DalaiiLameR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 21:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote:
just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc. It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well... in case of terran - okay. in case of toss - not really. yes, cb was nerfed (or not? someone mentioned in here, that it was a buff for cb). anyway, because of pylon overcharge, toss can take their 3rd much faster than in hots and that means, more probe production than in hots/wol, so worker production should at minimum be on pair with the production in hots/wol.
"or not?" ???
dude, speed boost went from 50% to 15%, how can this not be a nerf?
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On June 11 2016 23:28 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 23:01 DalaiiLameR wrote:On June 11 2016 21:33 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote:
just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc. It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well... in case of terran - okay. in case of toss - not really. yes, cb was nerfed (or not? someone mentioned in here, that it was a buff for cb). anyway, because of pylon overcharge, toss can take their 3rd much faster than in hots and that means, more probe production than in hots/wol, so worker production should at minimum be on pair with the production in hots/wol. " or not?" ??? dude, speed boost went from 50% to 15%, how can this not be a nerf?
"Honestly, as a GM Terran player, all I need is to look at statistics, watch GSL, SSL and proleague to notice that in the highest level of play, Zerg is very unfavored in either matchup in a straight up macro game and I believe that's due to the early game weakness of Zerg. Analyse LotV games and the drone count at the start and compare it to how it was in HotS and Wings, I believe Zerg needs it - Another issue is the Protoss chrono boost, I've recently seen mathematics that proove that the chrono in LotV is actually a buff compared to the one in HotS - in addition Protoss can now always afford a super early third base - were these eco changes really appropriate?
It might be too big of a buff in the end, but it is certainly worth the try since the high level Zerg are struggling so much in either early game of both ZvP and ZvT."
im just quoting oGsChess. would be nice to see some sources of this, but if hes gm player, i believe him.
okay, did some searching on my own:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20744214831
seems legit.
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On June 11 2016 21:32 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 21:30 DalaiiLameR wrote:On June 11 2016 21:27 geokilla wrote:On June 11 2016 16:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote:
I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch! Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly. How did the Marauder get nerfed? reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1. so carapace is twice as effective against marauders. Guardian shield too, which is why gateway units now beat pure bio.
um no lol.
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What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
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If you feel Zerg is weak, buff the Lurker then. The unit is almost totally useless right now, nobody builds them against Terran and in ZvP, they get shat over by mass Immortal so one-sidedly that it's not even funny.
ZvT could be great, if reasonable numbers of lurkers were basically unbeatable in chokes by bio, as it was in BW. Then we'd see tanks again (possibly buffed in damage, as everyone begs for years) and all sorts of positional shenenigans, with both sides trying to strike where the other's position-holding units aren't.
I am personally not really convinced that a patch is needed, but at this point, I feel why not, shaking up the game is always fun to watch.
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Italy12248 Posts
On June 12 2016 00:13 Diabolique wrote:
What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
Something like that would be much more reasonable and easy to tune.
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Balance at the top is always hard to "justify" the right calls. But i think the game shouldnt only focus on the top players. F.e. i like how they buffed the colossus with the reason: it wont effect top players, but will help out the less insane APM players who can use disruptors. Thats something everyone can support. The casuals keep the game alive, keeping the viewership up etc.
And here comes my point: sub top terran players are struggling vs zerg and toss. The new units/abilities/buffs really messed up the game. I would vote for a liberator nerf air to ground. But besides the liberator there isnt much else viable with bio. A random thor? too expensive and slow. BC's? you need a huge amount of them to get that beefy punch. Parasitic bomb cant be dodged, unlike seeker missles. ravager are big in size and therefor splash damage doesnt have much effect. Sees a few mines? corrosive bile spell and gone are the mines. Flat damage vs everything. Nydus cant be killed.
The real counter to ultras is only ghosts because marauder nerf. Burrowed lurkers? suprise here are some spikes in your behind, cant see them and no way to kill the like zerg is able to do with Ravagers. Liberators show a huge line where the siege is, unlike the other units. Storm+tempest/carriers are out? GG "you shouldnt let the toss get that army" , even top gm's are struggling vs it or instant lose, but yeah, no problems here. The list is endless, so many things can be improved to add more fun/fairness in the game.
But just like fixing the Cyclone bug, lets ignore it....
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On June 12 2016 00:03 90ti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 21:32 Elentos wrote:On June 11 2016 21:30 DalaiiLameR wrote:On June 11 2016 21:27 geokilla wrote:On June 11 2016 16:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote:
I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch! Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly. How did the Marauder get nerfed? reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1. so carapace is twice as effective against marauders. Guardian shield too, which is why gateway units now beat pure bio. um no lol.
On even upgrades with equal micro skill adept (with glaives)/blink stalker/sentry under guardian shields beats MMM. If you add liberators/mines/ghosts it goes in Terran favor.
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Some suggestions:
TERRAN
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs
Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio
Liberators: Increase supply to 4, radius nerf
Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time)
Lurker: Reduce range to 8
Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8)
Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100, nerf range pickup
Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2
Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time)
Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
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On June 12 2016 00:54 MaxTa wrote:
Some suggestions:
TERRAN
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs
Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio
Liberators: Increase supply to 4, radius nerf
Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time)
Lurker: Reduce range to 8
Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8)
Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100, nerf range pickup
Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2
Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time)
Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
I can vote for this, not perfect, but its a good start.
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EPT
