Dayvie: Hello everyone! Let’s talk about what’s on the radar for this week!
TL Map contest
First, we would like to congratulate everyone that participated! When going through the list, excluding only a couple maps, every map seemed very unique and cool. This really gives the high confidence that many of the map makers are improving as we work together towards creating a diverse, yet still balanced set of maps.
Like we pointed out last week, the only map that is already decided to make the ladder is New Gettysburg. However, the version of the map is not the one currently listed in the map contest. We have been working with Kespa players as well as Jacky (the map creator), and the latest changes Jacky made to the map feel very solid. The two main notable changes are turning the two center island bases to non-islands, and adding a rocked off path towards the opponent. We especially believe that the first change will really contribute towards better games because there will be less chances to drag on matches and the center area shouldn’t have air units being stuck on the no flying areas.
We will definitely check which maps score high on the list before making the final call on the remaining 3 ladder maps. We’ll decide the remaining 3 maps by comparing your top voted maps along with our internal discussions, and we’ll try to also avoid having two maps that will play out in similar ways as well.
Balance
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran. To explore this notion in greater details, we’ve pinged Kespa to get the stance of all the top players in KR to gauge the pro-stance as a whole. We have no actions planned yet, but we wanted to let you know so that we can all watch together to see if the situation actually is bad, and to discuss further moves together if they prove necessary.
The leading suggestion to test on this front so far is bringing the spawn larva count up from 3 to 4. We believe that this could be a good change if Zerg is really weak against Terran, and because we know that Protoss could very easily still be slightly ahead of Zerg in ZvP, it could be a good change there as well. However, the main potential negative to this change is that it would certainly affect early game play, and could to so to a degree that is more impactful than we intend.
Warcraft Movie!
Omg it was so awesome! We just watched it yesterday and while I may be slightly more biased than most viewers due to World of Warcraft and Warcraft 3 both being two of my complete favorite games of all time, it was such an amazing experience! Will definitely watch it again.
As always, thanks for discussing these things with us. We’re making our best efforts to be as transparent as possible here, and while balance decisions are always a delicate issue in StarCraft II, we’re confident that continuing to work with you guys is helping us reach the best decisions possible.
Honestly, the Larvae increase is ABSURD, build a damn Macro Hatch, it is easy enough right now to inject and mass Larvae.
I can't believe they are thinking about it... I remember watching more Macro Hatches in WoL than LotV at pro level, so now they don't want to waste infrastructure while the other races still need to do it with their MM nerfed.
I want old Chrono, and some sort of TechReactor for T and P if they buff the Inject
On June 11 2016 04:02 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, the Larvae increase is ABSURD, build a damn Macro Hatch, it is easy enough right now to inject and mass Larvae.
you have to keep in mind that macro hatcheries aren't free, in fact, you can't afford to make a macro hatch before taking your 4th in ZvT
The larva change is a really stupid idea. If you aren't sure a change is needed (and imo in this case it isn't), don't make a massive and potentially game breaking one...
On June 11 2016 04:02 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, the Larvae increase is ABSURD, build a damn Macro Hatch, it is easy enough right now to inject and mass Larvae.
you have to keep in mind that macro hatcheries aren't free, in fact, you can't afford to make a macro hatch before taking your 4th in ZvT
They aren't free, but Zergs aren't losing because they lack unit production in the early game, so i don't see what 4 larvae per hatch does that a macro hatch doesn't, except making Zerg revolve entirely too much around hitting perfect injects which a lot of people dislike.
I think straight up upping the spawn larva might be a bit too much. One idea I had was to allow lairs to handle two queens injecting at the same time, giving zerg a boost in production in the mid game without it affecting the early game.
Even as a Zerg, I would not like to see a larva buff, it's way to extreme. I would like to see more macro hatches instead, so maybe make them cheaper or something first.
Anyway if they ever buff the zerg macro, I think it will be make the early and mid game so much better for zerg that they really have to nerf the ultra armor. Right now Ultras are a comeback unit for zerg since Terrans are usually ahead in the mid game, this will no longer be needed if zerg macro gets buffed.
From there they can nerf the late game units from the other races, if zerg is too weak in the late game as a result.
Anyway, the best solution would be sending Nerchio to Korea for a few months, to show them how it's done .
Btw I love the change to New Gettysburg. It's exactly what I wanted.
Frome the TLMC7 Voting thread:
On June 07 2016 19:50 Musicus wrote: I would've voted for New Gettysburg, if bridges to the two islands in the middle had been added, but like this I don't want to play on this map vs Terran.
Zerg is weak in Korea, but strong everywhere else. It could be Korean Zergs are a little behind on the meta, they usually adapt a lot slower than Protoss and Terran in Korea. However, it could also be the case that Zerg is the easiest to play, but that it's weaker than the other races. A pure Larvae buff would be so crazy and specifically in Europe, Zergs would be the only viable race, apart from a fringe set of players. I would rather like to see a power increase in Zerg spell casters or some other area that makes the race require more skill, while solving the power level issue.
Haha! Have you heared that, all you ultralisk whiners? Koreans say zerg has no chance vs terran. As a zerg though i would really like a protoss nerf. Immortal shield reduction had literraly 0 effect. Protoss is ridiculously op atm. Zerg is stuck with hots units (lurker is debatable, but overall not usable) while protoss has an addition of an adept which has insane harass and allin potential (especially with a new prism) and disruptor that is the ONLY reason all zergs are forced to play ling bane, which again are countered by adepts alone. And then they got air deathball. Good to be protoss nowadays. And btw 4 larvae wont solve all our problems but at least we wouldn't need to make early macro hatch and an additional queen which is 450 minerals early game. Its 14 additional lings.
On June 11 2016 04:20 ejozl wrote: Zerg is weak in Korea, but strong everywhere else. It could be Korean Zergs are a little behind on the meta, they usually adapt a lot slower than Protoss and Terran in Korea. However, it could also be the case that Zerg is the easiest to play, but that it's weaker than the other races. A pure Larvae buff would be so crazy and specifically in Europe, Zergs would be the only viable race, apart from a fringe set of players. Would rather see a power increase in Zerg spell casters or some other area that makes the race require more skill, while solving the power level issue.
The problem is that Terran is overwhelmingly strong against Zerg in the mid game. So basically when Zerg has no spellcaster units on the field.
And I don't think that Korean Zergs are behind in the meta either, although it might be that Korean Terrans & Protosses are ahead of their non-Korean equivalents (in both meta and skill).
On June 11 2016 04:25 insitelol wrote: Haha! Have you heared that, all you ultralisk whiners? Koreans say zerg has no chance vs terran. As a zerg though i would really like a protoss nerf. Immortal shield reduction had literraly 0 effect. Protoss is ridiculously op atm. Zerg is stuck with hots units (lurker is debatable, but overall not usable) while protoss have an addition of an adept which has an insane harass and allin potential (especially with a prism) and disruptor that is the ONLY reason all zergs are forced to play ling bane, which again are countered by adepts alone. And then they got air deathball. Good to be protoss nowadays. And btw 4 larvae wont solve all our problems but at least we wouldn't need to make early macro hatch and an additional queen which is 450 minerals early game. Its 14 additional lings.
Nobody makes disruptors in Korean PvZ but the Zergs still switched to ling/bane. Go figure.
Is soO in charge of all Korean feedback? Terran might be stronger in TvZ, but I don't understand how you can look at recent results and say that " Zerg has no chance vs. Terran".
On June 11 2016 04:02 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, the Larvae increase is ABSURD, build a damn Macro Hatch, it is easy enough right now to inject and mass Larvae.
I can't believe they are thinking about it... I remember watching more Macro Hatches in WoL than LotV at pro level, so now they don't want to waste infrastructure while the other races still need to do it with their MM nerfed.
I want old Chrono, and some sort of TechReactor for T and P if they buff the Inject
Larvae buff makes a lot of sense, considering that it's Zerg 3rd resource and the gathering resource speed is way too high in LOTV, compared to WOL and HOTS.
On June 11 2016 04:20 ejozl wrote: Zerg is weak in Korea, but strong everywhere else. It could be Korean Zergs are a little behind on the meta, they usually adapt a lot slower than Protoss and Terran in Korea. However, it could also be the case that Zerg is the easiest to play, but that it's weaker than the other races. A pure Larvae buff would be so crazy and specifically in Europe, Zergs would be the only viable race, apart from a fringe set of players. I would rather like to see a power increase in Zerg spell casters or some other area that makes the race require more skill, while solving the power level issue.
Woah! Mr. skillful protoss here. My every unit has a micro ability. That means skill. That also means korean zergs have no clue about the meta.
On June 11 2016 04:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Is soO in charge of all Korean feedback? Terran might be stronger in TvZ, but I don't understand how you can look at recent results and say that " Zerg has no chance vs. Terran".
I mean, except by Dark, Zerg wins against Terran are pretty scarce in Korea atm. At least against the top tier Terrans.
On June 11 2016 04:20 ejozl wrote: Zerg is weak in Korea, but strong everywhere else. It could be Korean Zergs are a little behind on the meta, they usually adapt a lot slower than Protoss and Terran in Korea. However, it could also be the case that Zerg is the easiest to play, but that it's weaker than the other races. A pure Larvae buff would be so crazy and specifically in Europe, Zergs would be the only viable race, apart from a fringe set of players. Would rather see a power increase in Zerg spell casters or some other area that makes the race require more skill, while solving the power level issue.
The problem is that Terran is overwhelmingly strong against Zerg in the mid game. So basically when Zerg has no spellcaster units on the field.
And I don't think that Korean Zergs are behind in the meta either, although it might be that Korean Terrans & Protosses are ahead of their non-Korean equivalents (in both meta and skill). [
Larvae is definitely the reason Ling/Bane/Muta isn't more popular and that style has the most umph mid game. Fair enough, but doesn't change the fact that this would make WCS even more of a ZvZ fest.
I find the larva suggestion actually smart, because you cannot buff the actual UNITS, like a zergling buff would be way too huge. If it happens to be too extreme after internal testing, then I would recommend making larvae spawn a bit faster. A liberator range nerf and an adept nerf also might help (like really) if the larvae change seems op.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
On June 11 2016 04:37 NicolasJohnson wrote: I find the larva suggestion actually smart, because you cannot buff the actual UNITS, like a zergling buff would be way too huge. If it happens to be too extreme after internal testing, then I would recommend making larvae spawn a bit faster. A liberator range nerf and an adept nerf also might help (like really) if the larvae change seems op.
That's actually a good idea.
I would love if they tested an increased larva spawn rate on the hatchery before going back to 4 per inject.
This would also make macro hatches more attractive.
On June 11 2016 04:25 insitelol wrote: Protoss is ridiculously op atm. Zerg is stuck with hots units (lurker is debatable, but overall not usable) while protoss has an addition of an adept which has insane harass and allin potential (especially with a new prism) and disruptor that is the ONLY reason all zergs are forced to play ling bane, which again are countered by adepts alone. And then they got air deathball. Good to be protoss nowadays.
Odd... I can't remember the last time my PvZ winrate wasn't below 30%. Oh wait, yes I do. Back in HotS. Protoss does not need nerfing at all, PvT is in a nice spot but PvZ has been horrific since beta and the collossus buff hasn't helped a bit. All Zerg have to do is continue to tech switch and harrass expansions that Protoss can't defend and win easily.
Upping the larva spawn rate isn't going to fix TvZ issues at all while making PvZ even more problematic. Blizz need to identify what exactly is causing the issue (I bet it's liberators or something) and nerf accordingly.
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran.
"no chance" is a pretty strong choice of wording, considering Dark went 3-2 against Innovation last night.
On June 11 2016 04:25 insitelol wrote: Protoss is ridiculously op atm. Zerg is stuck with hots units (lurker is debatable, but overall not usable) while protoss has an addition of an adept which has insane harass and allin potential (especially with a new prism) and disruptor that is the ONLY reason all zergs are forced to play ling bane, which again are countered by adepts alone. And then they got air deathball. Good to be protoss nowadays.
Odd... I can't remember the last time my PvZ winrate wasn't below 30%. Oh wait, yes I do. Back in HotS. Protoss does not need nerfing at all, PvT is in a nice spot but PvZ has been horrific since beta and the collossus buff hasn't helped a bit. All Zerg have to do is continue to tech switch and harrass expansions that Protoss can't defend and win easily.
Upping the larva spawn rate isn't going to fix TvZ issues at all while making PvZ even more problematic. Blizz need to identify what exactly is causing the issue (I bet it's liberators or something) and nerf accordingly.
Protoss has the upperhand vs Zerg as well (albeit way less drastically than in TvZ)
all of the changes proposed by Blizz in the feedback are aimed at Korean pro level, since that's the only scene relevant to balance
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran.
"no chance" is a pretty strong choice of wording, considering Dark went 3-2 against Innovation last night.
the best Zerg and top 4 player in the world barely winning a bo5 vs someone who didn't qualify for Code S last season and this one didn't even qualify for SSL. Go figure.
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran.
"no chance" is a pretty strong choice of wording, considering Dark went 3-2 against Innovation last night.
Well, he's the best Zerg in the world. If even he had no chance they'd have no reason to wait with buffing Zerg.
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran.
"no chance" is a pretty strong choice of wording, considering Dark went 3-2 against Innovation last night.
Dark being probably the best zerg in the world, and winning by the skin of his teeth 3-2 after what looked like a won game for Innovation who took really bad fights, incomprehensibly, I wouldn't let this series be an indicator of zerg being able to rival terran.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
i wish we had global events so people would see this just isnt true
On June 11 2016 04:25 insitelol wrote: Protoss is ridiculously op atm. Zerg is stuck with hots units (lurker is debatable, but overall not usable) while protoss has an addition of an adept which has insane harass and allin potential (especially with a new prism) and disruptor that is the ONLY reason all zergs are forced to play ling bane, which again are countered by adepts alone. And then they got air deathball. Good to be protoss nowadays.
Odd... I can't remember the last time my PvZ winrate wasn't below 30%. Oh wait, yes I do. Back in HotS. Protoss does not need nerfing at all, PvT is in a nice spot but PvZ has been horrific since beta and the collossus buff hasn't helped a bit. All Zerg have to do is continue to tech switch and harrass expansions that Protoss can't defend and win easily.
Upping the larva spawn rate isn't going to fix TvZ issues at all while making PvZ even more problematic. Blizz need to identify what exactly is causing the issue (I bet it's liberators or something) and nerf accordingly.
Your PvZ winrate is about as relevant to the balance of the game as the weather forecast.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
i wish we had global events so people would see this just isnt true
If you keep wishing, maybe eventually we'll get 1. Maybe. Possibly.
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran.
i can totally believe this. RTS games are completely different experiences at different APM levels.
if you end up nerfing Terran please nerf an air unit. please do not worry too much about the whiners that are lower than top level. THe most important balance is at the top level. If that means my Terran diamond account ends up in Platinum due to a nerf you guys make... i don't care and no mature adult should care.
On June 11 2016 04:44 KatatoniK wrote: Odd... I can't remember the last time my PvZ winrate wasn't below 30%. Oh wait, yes I do. Back in HotS. Protoss does not need nerfing at all, PvT is in a nice spot but PvZ has been horrific since beta and the collossus buff hasn't helped a bit. All Zerg have to do is continue to tech switch and harrass expansions that Protoss can't defend and win easily.
Upping the larva spawn rate isn't going to fix TvZ issues at all while making PvZ even more problematic. Blizz need to identify what exactly is causing the issue (I bet it's liberators or something) and nerf accordingly.
We are playing different games then. I was mid masters protoss in hots and pvz was my best matchup with 60% winrate. Take third. defend. move out. collect points. And it became worse since then. What tech switches are you talking about? i got no idea. Muta play is dead. period. All zerg is doing these days is desperately trying to defend from adepts drops/allins in eary/mid while praying to somehow tech to broodlords before protoss makes his ground/air deathball.
Nydus network and worm should be re-priced. Network 150/150. Worm 100/100 when placed off creep. Worm 50/50 and silent (no global scream) when placed on creep. Remove invincibility while building worms. Numbers are just for reference; the idea is just cheaper mainly for worm on creep.
On June 11 2016 04:25 Elentos wrote: Nobody makes disruptors in Korean PvZ but the Zergs still switched to ling/bane. Go figure.
Ok disruptors AND immortals.
Why would you build banelings against immortals. The banelings are there to beat adepts, and they do a pretty good job at it.
We were talking about the reasons zergs switched to ling/bate vs p. You are trying to say that's because of the adpets? Don't you think roaches would be a much more solid choice vs units that do a bonus damage to light units such as lings/banes? But when was the last time you saw a roach in that mu? Oh wait.
On June 11 2016 04:25 Elentos wrote: Nobody makes disruptors in Korean PvZ but the Zergs still switched to ling/bane. Go figure.
Ok disruptors AND immortals.
Why would you build banelings against immortals. The banelings are there to beat adepts, and they do a pretty good job at it.
We were talking about the reasons zergs switched to ling/bate vs p. You are trying to say that's because of the adpets? Don't you think roaches would be a much more solid choice vs units that do a bonus damage to light units such as lings/banes? But when was the last time you saw a roach in that mu? Oh wait.
Protoss players a-moved hydra/lurker with chargelot/archon/immo. They also open with adepts.
So zergs added banenlings, because they can help you defend the adept openings without roaches (which as you said get countered by immos) and they counter the chargelots (In response we saw builds where Protoss players don't get charge at all and the sentry made it's comeback).
Get rid of healing ability of the medivac (maybe make it an upgrade) and reintroduce the medic-footman to reduce harrass-efficiency of terrans, while they are at the same time insensitive to being harassed due to the mule.
Also rather add micro options for zerg so the skillceiling is raised, instead of giving all zergs an overall buff.
However, I'd like to see a testmap with increased larvae to actually see the impact of the change.
On June 11 2016 04:25 Elentos wrote: Nobody makes disruptors in Korean PvZ but the Zergs still switched to ling/bane. Go figure.
Ok disruptors AND immortals.
Why would you build banelings against immortals. The banelings are there to beat adepts, and they do a pretty good job at it.
We were talking about the reasons zergs switched to ling/bate vs p. You are trying to say that's because of the adpets? Don't you think roaches would be a much more solid choice vs units that do a bonus damage to light units such as lings/banes? But when was the last time you saw a roach in that mu? Oh wait.
Roaches don't DPS down the adepts fast enough so you lose your entire worker line before they die, while banes are more vulnerable to adepts but also do a much better job killing them.
On June 11 2016 04:26 Lexender wrote: No info about the cyclone, how is it taking them more than a week to fix a bug?
Last community update they already said that they would fix it the next time the game was updated. They don't need to repeat themselves.
Yeah, thats kind of what I'm getting at, why does it take so long to fix this bug? isn't it simply changing the cooldown from 9 to 4?
I'm sure they've already fixed it. They won't schedule a patch for a single change though, so they're probably working on other fixes before we get a patch.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Oh I guess you don't know. Most foreign terrans suck ass as Terran. It's been true since 2010. If you remove Korea, Terran doesn't look very strong. You add the Koreans and Terran is amazingly powerful. Games being balanced around the highest level, not lower level players.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Oh I guess you don't know. Most foreign terrans suck ass as Terran. It's been true since 2010. If you remove Korea, Terran doesn't look very strong. You add the Koreans and Terran is amazingly powerful. Games being balanced around the highest level, not lower level players.
Across GSL, SSL, and Cross Finals terran was the least represented and least successful race. Not by some massive margin, but it's still a true statement. If what you and these "specific kespa pros" are saying is true, shouldn't terran be dominating in Korea? There certainly would not be nearly as much pushback on this if terran was actually blowing everyone away in Korea.
These statements aren't really new though. I remember Korean Terrans saying that TvZ is around 90-10 Terran favored even back in January. And since then the map pool got worse for Zerg.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?
Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.
Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".
If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.
reddit had a pretty interesting suggestion (credit Scusl)
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this; Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject Lair: 4 Larva per inject Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this; Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject Lair: 4 Larva per inject Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
I like this, sounds really cool.
Edit: Actually I don't think this change makes a difference. It's not like people will build 3 hives because of this, a macro hatch would still be better than a second hive and gas is too valuable.
its so funny, then the people here say, that blizz have no clue, what they do and that the larva change would break the game. ofcourse, the blizz employees arent pros and arent the best in sc2, but damn, they're talking to kespa pros, who rly understand the game.. and when they say, that this is a possibility, then its the truth. they arent only talking with zerg players btw. the feedback, that terran > zerg comes not only from zerg players, even terran players have to feel that way and why should they lie?
i personally have no clue about balance issues, because im only low masters. maybe some people here should also trust in the kespa pros. and to be honest, the latest changes were rly great.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this; Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject Lair: 4 Larva per inject Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
Pretty much this, but I don't know if 5 for Hive is necessary.
Blizzard can fine tune this to be one of these scenarios:
1. Hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 4 2. Hatchery 3, Lair 3, Hive 4 3. Hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 4 plus slightly faster larva spawn rate 4. Hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 5 (a bit ridiculous) 5. Hatchery 3, Lair/Hive some upgrade to make it 4 (various combinations of above)
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?
Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.
Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".
If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.
I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?
Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.
Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".
If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.
I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.
Well blame Korean zergs then, although Korean Protoss players admitted that P is/was (not sure yet how the barrier nerf affects the game) OP, so Terrans might do the same. Korean Terrans obviously know if their zerg teammates are complaining about ZvT and it doesn't seem like they object or Blizzard would have received their feedback as well.
Blame anyone but Blizzard, they are just showing us what they get sent from Korea.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?
Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.
Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".
If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.
I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.
Blame anyone but Blizzard, they are just showing us what they get sent from Korea.
No, the buck stops at Blizzard. They're the ones with the responsibility and the power here. If Kespa feedback is nonsensical, they should take a hardline stance against it.
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote: rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait
Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.
Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.
Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?
Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.
Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".
If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.
I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.
Blame anyone but Blizzard, they are just showing us what they get sent from Korea.
No, the buck stops at Blizzard. They're the ones with the responsibility and the power here. If Kespa feedback is nonsensical, they should take a hardline stance against it.
It's not like they are patching the game just based on this feedback, they are very sceptical and want to get more feedback from all the korean pros, not just zergs. They are doing nothing with this feedback apart from informing us about it.
To explore this notion in greater details, we’ve pinged Kespa to get the stance of all the top players in KR to gauge the pro-stance as a whole. We have no actions planned yet, but we wanted to let you know so that we can all watch together to see if the situation actually is bad, and to discuss further moves together if they prove necessary.
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.
but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.
ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:
Look into: - tankivac properties - medivac movement speed (boost) - medivac unload speed - medivac healing speed - medivac hitpoints. unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well. Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz) edit: this would be too strong with queendrops vs protoss, so Anti-air only. If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.
one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.
Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.
Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.
Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.
Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is
when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.
On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote: Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.
fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)
i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?
later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.
another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.
okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents
Well, if the macro mechanic of zerg will then compeltely reverted to HotS times, with no inject que and the old mule and chrono i'm fine with 4 larvae...
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.
but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.
ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:
Look into: - tankivac properties - medivac movement speed (boost) - medivac unload speed - medivac healing speed - medivac hitpoints. unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well. Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.
one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.
Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.
Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.
Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.
Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is
when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.
On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote: Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.
fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)
i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?
later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.
another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.
okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents
Out of interest, how do you play ZvT macro games at the moment?
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.
but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.
ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:
Look into: - tankivac properties - medivac movement speed (boost) - medivac unload speed - medivac healing speed - medivac hitpoints. unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well. Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.
one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.
Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.
Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.
Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.
Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is
when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.
On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote: Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.
fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)
i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?
later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.
another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.
okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents
Out of interest, how do you play ZvT macro games at the moment?
roach ravager infestor for the most part, occasionally brood lords or ultralisk. muta ling bane can also work on very large maps
Snute, don't think low of yourself. We all know you are a great player and world class lvl, not because once a while you won something against KeSPA pros, but because your consistent results and understanding of the game.
I agree with your post, and I hope Blizz listen people like you more than koreans asking for free larva buff instead using a macro hatch.
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.
but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.
ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:
Look into: - tankivac properties - medivac movement speed (boost) - medivac unload speed - medivac healing speed - medivac hitpoints. unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well. Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.
one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.
Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.
Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.
Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.
Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is
when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.
On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote: Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.
fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)
i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?
later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.
another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.
okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents
Out of interest, how do you play ZvT macro games at the moment?
roach ravager infestor for the most part, occasionally brood lords or ultralisk. muta ling bane can also work on very large maps
I wish we could see you play against some good Korean Terrans more often this year. I mean you played like two best of 1s in Shanghai against ByuN and TY but those were on weird maps.
I think I agree with you though. Whenever I see Zerg players lose, be it in Korea or EU or wherever, I never feel like it's because they were running out of larva.
I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today. Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance. Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too. imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.
If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag.
That's pretty horrifying for PvZ. Early queen drop is one of the more powerful all-ins and buffing queen damage against stalkers and all buildings (overcharged pylons etc) while also making overlords take very little damage from the only available anti-air unit at the same time would be bad, i think
That would also affect the midgame with overlords dropping units as there is a large reliance on stalkers (which do low damage vs light, moderate damage vs armored) for anti-air
Do we also really want to turn queens into the zerg-MSC? The fallout from the WOL queen range buff was one of the worst times in the expansion IMO and queens already have quite a bit of power.
On June 11 2016 06:39 Zulu23 wrote: I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today. Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance. Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too. imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.
Zerg agression is quite weak in lotv compared to hots/wol early game as terrans now open mostly 2 base builds (roach bane etc in hots was targeted to beat 3cc openings for the most part) and tank+medivac can hold almost anything by itself. Most attacks you can do are just counterattacks timed to hit when the terran leaves their base with a drop or ling floods hoping they dont have a wall
I can't believe they are seriously considering the larva buff it seems they don't understand how big of a differnce this will make. In Lotv the macro mechanics of all 3 races got nerfed. Revert one macro mechanic without touching the others will break the game.
On another hand it's so surprising and weird that tvz is terran favored in korea but even/zerg favored everywhere else. Such a situation has never happened before and I really wonder what's the reason for that. Imo DK should wait a little bit to see if korean zergs are just playing bad atm considering Dark is still doing perfectly fine in zvt and korea is the only place where zergs are doing bad.
On June 11 2016 06:39 Zulu23 wrote: I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today. Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance. Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too. imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.
Zerg agression is quite weak in lotv compared to hots/wol early game as terrans now open mostly 2 base builds (roach bane etc in hots was targeted to beat 3cc openings for the most part)
Of course those terrans feel like they have to do this because the longer the game the smaller the chance of winning. If the late game was more even, terrans wouldn't 2 base as much, and zerg aggression would be more viable in the meta. It isn't just because of tankivacs or whatever, it's because of the entire metagame.
On June 11 2016 06:39 Zulu23 wrote: I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today. Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance. Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too. imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.
No chance is an exaggeration I agree but Terran certainly is favored in the match up. I actually think, going from todays match, Inno is in pretty good shape. Certainly the best shape he's been in in LotV. God damned GSL (lack of) seeding :/
On June 11 2016 06:39 Zulu23 wrote: I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today. Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance. Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too. imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.
Zerg agression is quite weak in lotv compared to hots/wol early game as terrans now open mostly 2 base builds (roach bane etc in hots was targeted to beat 3cc openings for the most part)
Of course those terrans feel like they have to do this because the longer the game the smaller the chance of winning.
A moderate imbalance that happens early in the game is more important than a massive imbalance later on because the earlier ones affect way more games in a bigger way
Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Because they're too in love with the so called "cool factor" to notice that they're really, really stupid.
If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag.
That's pretty horrifying for PvZ. Early queen drop is one of the more powerful all-ins and buffing queen damage against stalkers and all buildings (overcharged pylons etc) while also making overlords take very little damage from the only available anti-air unit would be very bad.
That would also affect the midgame with overlords dropping units as there is a large reliance on stalkers (which do low damage vs light, moderate damage vs armored) for anti-air
Do we also really want to turn queens into the zerg-MSC? The fallout from the WOL queen range buff was one of the worst times in the expansion IMO and queens already have quite a bit of power.
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Pretty sure the last time Blizzard thought about changing tankivacs, the Koreans told them not to change such a key unit while the season is ongoing, while they got a lot of people telling them tankivacs are cool. And thus the issue was dropped forever.
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Because they're too in love with the so called "cool factor" to notice that they're really, really stupid.
The cool factor of the carrier is that it's almost never used. Never forget.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
At the moment I seriously think nerchio and snute are not far behind if not better than non-Dark korean zergs.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
At the moment I seriously think nerchio and snute are not far behind if not better than non-Dark korean zergs.
Artosis said in a q&a in one of his last streams that he thinks Nerchio is legit code S level.
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
At the moment I seriously think nerchio and snute are not far behind if not better than non-Dark korean zergs.
Artosis said in a q&a in one of his last streams that he thinks Nerchio is legit code S level.
I'm sure Nerchio is legit Code S level. He plays a lot smarter than many Korean Zergs.
But of course, since he's a foreigner, if he actually tried to qualify for Korean leagues, he'd get some ridiculous draw in Code A. Because Korea is nice like that.
I really dont get how kespa pros think zerg was that weak against terran. At the moment there just are no really outstanding zergs. And no zerg seems to play a reactive style anymore. Its all about teching up to ultras in the most passive way possible. As terran you can start to blindcounter that of course. And roach ravager seems to be figured out as well.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
At the moment I seriously think nerchio and snute are not far behind if not better than non-Dark korean zergs.
That would be quite easy to see ... let Nerchio and Snute play vs. Gumiho, Ryung, Cure, eventually Inno.
On June 11 2016 07:11 Charoisaur wrote: With Life gone it's clear zerg doesn't look as bright atm. Take away maru and zest from t/p and they wouldn't look as strong either.
Terran would still have TY (and ByuN for online games!) and Protoss would still have Stats, Classic, Dear and herO (plus sOs the moment he comes into form). If Dark wasn't there Zerg would be in a way worse spot in Korea than that.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
At the moment I seriously think nerchio and snute are not far behind if not better than non-Dark korean zergs.
I like the way they play ZvT much better (ZvP is harder to compare due to how different Korean and foreign PvZ is at the moment).
However it's harder to evaluate how everything else (multi-tasking, handling harass etc) compare.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
At the moment I seriously think nerchio and snute are not far behind if not better than non-Dark korean zergs.
I like the way they play ZvT much better (ZvP is harder to compare due to how different Korean and foreign PvZ is at the moment).
However it's harder to evaluate how everything else (multi-tasking, handling harass etc) compare.
The thing is, I'm sure there'd be a reason why Koreans don't use that style to play ZvT (at least not much) other than "They're not comfortable with it", that reason likely being "It doesn't work too well in practice".
And another reason i think bad about buffing zerg at the moment is todays code a match (dark vs inno). Unlike in HotS zerg is nowadays allowed to stay on even bases with the terran (not for too long though) and can still win. Zerg is way more stable now, than it was back in HotS. Still, a minor zerg buff wont hurt that much.
I think, today's Dark vs. Inno demonstrated, how the best Zerg in the world hardly manages to get a 3:2 against a (currently) average Terran. I cannot imagine any situation, where Nerchio or Snute would not lose 3:0 the same match.
EDIT: Please, HomeStory Cup, our only real global event, get to Germany a few normal, average, Korean Terrans!
The one problem I have with this "korean feedback" is the lack of transparency from whom this feedback comes from. For all we know it could be almost entirely zergs which provide the feedback. If even korean terrans say zerg can't win in tvz that's of course the sign of serious balance problems but I'm VERY skeptical that korean terrans think the larva buff would be fine.
I agree with a specific version of the larva change! As someone on reddit put it, where you get one extra larva for lair and hive, respectively...
However, I don't think that's the root of the problem with ZvT. Terran players just have way too many harass options that require specific responses from Zerg and, on the flip side, require not too much effort for Terran to re-converge into 3 base timing pushes...
And Zerg don't have any way to pressure Terrans, as it's pretty damn simple for Terran to shut down all forms of Zerg aggression that isn't a timed counterattack (what Scarlett said)!
Snute's amazing post sums it up! I would like a little queen tweaking (a solid response and would allow players to go ravager free in the early game if they should so choose). But feel free to choose any of his suggestions .
Also, please buff hydra HP so that they don't die in one shot to +1 liberators! Don't let my dreams of hydras in ZvT be dreams!
>> My dream change would be something that allows Zerg to start consistently pressuring Terrans without that pressure being too "all-in" for the Zerg (something equivalent in effect to the myriad of different things Terrans can open with).
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
Amazing how a generally good post can have such a ridiculous beginning. Trolling fading into reason
Making tanks unsiege automatically after they're dropped by medivacs that loaded them sieged would be a way to kill two birds in one stone. It would make the tankivac less BS in TvZ, but would also unlock the full marine tankivacs TvT that has 0 diversity atm. That would be a sensible way to deal with the situation. But reverting to 4 larvae is of course complete nonsense, and would break the balance hard.
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
Amazing how a generally good post can have such a ridiculous beginning. Trolling fading into reason
So you think I'm trolling?
For starters, don't begin a sentence with "lol" Second, don't come up with the WoL "Terrans are just better" like nonsense
On June 11 2016 07:59 JackONeill wrote: Making tanks unsiege automatically after they're dropped by medivacs that loaded them sieged would be a way to kill two birds in one stone.
This would make unsieging via medivac pickup practically mandatory and that is weird.
On June 11 2016 07:59 JackONeill wrote: Making tanks unsiege automatically after they're dropped by medivacs that loaded them sieged would be a way to kill two birds in one stone. It would make the tankivac less BS in TvZ, but would also unlock the full marine tankivacs TvT that has 0 diversity atm. That would be a sensible way to deal with the situation. But reverting to 4 larvae is of course complete nonsense, and would break the balance hard.
tankivacs are 100% necessary against allins from both zerg and protoss and vs roach ravager immobile tanks would be worthless. I don't like them in tvt but removing them would break the other matchups.
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
Amazing how a generally good post can have such a ridiculous beginning. Trolling fading into reason
So you think I'm trolling?
For starters, don't begin a sentence with "lol" Second, don't come up with the WoL "Terrans are just better" like nonsense
It's been a general consensus that the Korean Terrans are better in TvZ right now...
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
Amazing how a generally good post can have such a ridiculous beginning. Trolling fading into reason
So you think I'm trolling?
For starters, don't begin a sentence with "lol" Second, don't come up with the WoL "Terrans are just better" like nonsense
It's been a general consensus that the Korean Terrans are better in TvZ right now...
Nothing interesting beside map. And can people stop saying " A race has no chance against B race" ???.Its too extreme. Oh wait...those words only come from korean....
On June 11 2016 06:55 geokilla wrote: Lol it's not that Zerg is weak in Korea in my opinion. It's just that no Zerg player stands out in Korea because Korean Protoss and Terran players are too good. I can't think of any good Korean Zerg players outside of SoO, ByuL, Solar, and Dark.
If Blizzard goes through with that larvae change, we're going to have a hell of a bad time like the end of Wings of Liberty.
By the way, why isn't Blizzard addressing Tankivacs?
Edit: Just saw this on Reddit. This is actually a really smart change.
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject
Amazing how a generally good post can have such a ridiculous beginning. Trolling fading into reason
So you think I'm trolling?
For starters, don't begin a sentence with "lol" Second, don't come up with the WoL "Terrans are just better" like nonsense
It's been a general consensus that the Korean Terrans are better in TvZ right now...
Would slowing the game down make it easier to balance and play in general? We have a dedicated thread for it here on TL and for a lot of people, including professionals, games are decided in one or two engagement.
On June 11 2016 04:25 Elentos wrote: Nobody makes disruptors in Korean PvZ but the Zergs still switched to ling/bane. Go figure.
Ok disruptors AND immortals.
Why would you build banelings against immortals. The banelings are there to beat adepts, and they do a pretty good job at it.
We were talking about the reasons zergs switched to ling/bate vs p. You are trying to say that's because of the adpets? Don't you think roaches would be a much more solid choice vs units that do a bonus damage to light units such as lings/banes? But when was the last time you saw a roach in that mu? Oh wait.
Roaches don't DPS down the adepts fast enough so you lose your entire worker line before they die, while banes are more vulnerable to adepts but also do a much better job killing them.
On June 11 2016 04:26 Lexender wrote: No info about the cyclone, how is it taking them more than a week to fix a bug?
Last community update they already said that they would fix it the next time the game was updated. They don't need to repeat themselves.
Yeah, thats kind of what I'm getting at, why does it take so long to fix this bug? isn't it simply changing the cooldown from 9 to 4?
I'm sure they've already fixed it. They won't schedule a patch for a single change though, so they're probably working on other fixes before we get a patch.
Oh ok, I remember Blizzard patching things like this without people realizing like back when they changed WM to do +damage to shields, BAM people didn't even knew the game was patched.
On June 11 2016 06:03 Liquid`Snute wrote: i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.
but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.
ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:
Look into: - tankivac properties - medivac movement speed (boost) - medivac unload speed - medivac healing speed - medivac hitpoints. unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well. Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz) edit: this would be too strong with queendrops vs protoss, so Anti-air only. If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.
one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.
Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.
Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.
Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.
Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is
when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.
In a standart no harrass zvp macro game in hots, zerg would always be ahead some workers and the difference would increase linearly. That was the nature of the zvp balance, have more eco, trade your thrash units... Now open up a same style macro zvp game in lotv; you will see that worker count are always equal till 50 workers. Then the drone count accelerates, however that extra workers always die to phoneix no matter what (since there is no counter-play to phoneix), worker count still goes equal till 66. Now protoss players tell that new chrono sucks, but how? Can someone explain me how protoss can always have equal workers as you no matter how greedy zerg you are? I think thats why a slight increase on larvae spawn time might be good. Eco system has grown but production got worse, there is something wrong here. I also have another little complain which is also relative: Whenever an inject cyle finishes, your queen will have 23 energy and if you want to time a perfect inject, you will have to waste that 2 seconds by spamming and it really annoys me. It would be really nice if they increase queen energy recovery by a tiny number (like %5?) so she would have exactly 25 energy when a cycle finishes, that would be a tiny buff on zerg production as well.
the post earlier saying people actually believe eu zergs could win code s made me laugh for 2 minutes straight. even with 20 gsl seasons a year and every eu zerg participating in all of them, none of them would ever make it even to the RO8. get real.
oh and on topic, just make it so that hatcheries spawn 3 larva and lair / hive spawn 4. thank me later.
Here we go whine whine whine about balance. That's all Terran does, they whine and get a triple buff as in mines, thors and hellbats, they constantly whine, they get liberators they whine etc etc etc they're the toughest race right now still whining, maybe zerg should whine for once.
A patch like that will stomp every foreign terran. TvZ is a problem only in Korea because only in Korea you have to face Maru,Cure and TY. Ofc zerg foreigners progamers are ok with that because it means easier money,but don't forget that viewers will be tired of PvZ one day.
On June 11 2016 10:02 NomaKasd wrote: Here we go whine whine whine about balance. That's all Terran does, they whine and get a triple buff as in mines, thors and hellbats, they constantly whine, they get liberators they whine etc etc etc they're the toughest race right now still whining, maybe zerg should whine for once.
Complains about Terrans whining, when in fact every race is whining since 6 years. You seem to imply only terrans whine and thats all they do. Meanwhile every other race works very hard and are better players. Get real srsly. Disrespecting a third of the playerbase seems acceptable nowadays on this forum, but honestly you sound like a jerk. Your comment gets funnier when one realises your signature contains IdrA, somebody known as a notorious whiner. (buhu imba imba world)
On June 11 2016 10:02 NomaKasd wrote: Here we go whine whine whine about balance. That's all Terran does, they whine and get a triple buff as in mines, thors and hellbats, they constantly whine, they get liberators they whine etc etc etc they're the toughest race right now still whining, maybe zerg should whine for once.
I forgot to laugh.
On June 11 2016 10:29 Tresher wrote: Hey there are tons of balance and design flaws and even technical problems with the game. So let´s tell people how awesome the new Warcraft Movie is.
I'm honestly just speechless. You have thousands of people who voted that Terran is the weakest race on the front of Team Liquid: 45% saying Protoss is most favored with 4.5k votes and Terran coming in (more than dead) last with 20%. Yet I see a post like this with, "it may surprise you...[with Zerg being underpowered vs the weakest race in the community]."
There are only two things happening here: 1) David Kim is the most inept person to ever lead game development. 2) There is some sort of collusion going on here. I'm leaning towards the latter.
We've seen corruption breach very high levels of play and I sometimes question "who is he talking to". This seems like a very select few players. Was Life one of these players? Or countless others accused of match fixing?
Blizzard needs to balance the game on their own. Feedback from several key resources is fine but to balance the game on a select few people saved on your smartphone is not true balance.
This is a case where making some (massive) changes is better than making no decision at all. ProLeague is based on sponsorship. This game is clearly having issues with its current state - streamers (mainly Terran) are leaving in droves. Wake up.
Larva is a global buff, but it seems like only ZvT is the problem. DK has always been favorable to more surgical changes that don't upset the meta. Even with strictly GSL/SSL as KeSPA claims to base their opinions on, PvZ is dead even. Sounds like a job for finding what's wrong with the specific unit interactions in ZvT, the midgame being the likely culprit, and I would suspect how well-rounded Liberators are at being the answer to all of Zerg options (esp Ling/Bane/Muta) until Hive. Whatever PvT collateral they can always +shields.
I'm almost convinced the feedback is coming from players like SoO. With their all-in defeatist play styles. DK needs to re-evaluated the players he looks for "feedback" when even Wolf calls the play "pathetic" (@ 6:20). I would encourage people to look at SoO replays because, as many TL members have mentioned, much of the feedback is thought to come from him.
Thank god that they noticed the bad win percentage that our fellow Zergs are having against Terrans these days. Zerg get punished very heavily early on due to the short production rate as Zerg cannot afford to make drones and units at the same time. Because Kespa players (Terran especially) are relentless with their Macro and Micro (Harasses) throughout the entirety of the game, Zerg got stomped badly with poor economy and low number of units to defend if the Zerg decides to go somewhere between MAcroing and defending harasses ! It's truly insightful that the developers notice this situation and taking into consideration to make few helpful changes to our fellow Zergs. I agree with the changes that the Pros and developers will make as they better understand the whole concept of the game and hopefully fix the win percentage rate to 50% again.
P.S : Mutas are no longer viable as Liberators will just A move into the flock and win every engagement.
Thank you Blizzard and many thanks to TeamLiquid for having this awesome discussion !
I think even increase the starting larva and max larva without injection from 3 to 4, or new hatchery starts with 2 larva is better than larva injection increase. 1 hatchery = 350 mineral, can produce all units. 2 barracks = 300 mineral + mining time, can produce only marines. 2 gateway = 300 mineral, can produce only ground units.
On the one hand, it's true that zerg somewhat struggles a little in korea at the moment. There's no denying that. Mainly because protosses started to figure out PvZ and stoped dying to full lurkers. Terrans also came up with answers to zerg's late game (win before late game, then proceed to mass liberators). However, GSL results are pretty convincing for zerg, which raises a question about these unreferenced sources : why are they more relevent than results? But whatever.
On the other hand, taking a look at the bigger picture, terran is struggling everywhere outside korea. In the protoss case, Blizz buffed the colossus saying it'd be a more reliable AoE dealer than the disruptors for lower level people. It was actually a very sensible thought process, that, I think, has positive consequences on diversity and enjoyablity for all skill levels. And if there's a problem with a handfull of terran dominating korean pro level while terran barely even appears in EU and NA pro scenes, proposing carefully thought changes that would limit pro KR terrans in their abuse and encourage lower level players (and NA/EU pro scenes, by extension) to play terran would be the way to go. The very fact that there's only one way to play terran in all MUs with 0 diversity in compositions makes it so that koreans are doing pretty well for themselves, and NA/EU terrans are having a very hard time. Looking into terran diversity, therefore, would be an exemple on how to nerf some stuff that the KR terrans are overabusing, while applying slight buffs that would allow other alternatives that require less of a skill cap.
However, in the opposite, simply buffing zerg's macro mechanics is a bronze leaguer solution. It's borderline "30 dmg zealot charge". I can't stress enough how stupid the situation of TvZ is : - korean terrans manage to kill zergs before T3, and therefore handle the matchup well - NA/EU terrans can't manage to do it, and have huge difficulties in the MU
Blindly buffing zerg's macro mech across the board will just make EU/NA terrans have even more difficulties, and if it manages to tilt the balance to the point where it's decently easy for KR zergs to hold until T3, we'll have another period of zerg dominance, even in korea. Which wouldn't be a problem if terran's late game was smartly and swiftly looked into, but we all know that's never gonna happen. Also, I won't even get into how it'll completly break ZvP which may be, I guess, the most balanced while diverse non mirror MU there is. Oh yeah, and to add insult to injury, let's promote the warcraft movie while we're at it. Smart move DK.
Oh let's just increase spawn larva number to 4, it's only an increase of one.
No, it's an increase from 3 to 4, which is 33%. Over the course of a game, how many extra larva do you get with this little change?
Not weighing in on the balance, but the idea of making a change so dramatic is absurd. I thought they said something about baby step changes a while ago?
Do Zerg players still build macro hatcheries? Is it because of macro and unit changes, like Roach can be mutated into a Ravager for example, the reason why Zergs don't build them anymore?
On June 11 2016 13:37 dyDrawer wrote: Oh let's just increase spawn larva number to 4, it's only an increase of one.
No, it's an increase from 3 to 4, which is 33%. Over the course of a game, how many extra larva do you get with this little change?
Not weighing in on the balance, but the idea of making a change so dramatic is absurd. I thought they said something about baby step changes a while ago?
Queen injects spawn 3 larvae in 29 seconds. For simplicity's sake I'm going to use 30 seconds as a beast case scenario. If Zerg has 3 to 4 Hatcheries in the mid game, that's an extra 6 to 8 units per minute.
I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
On June 11 2016 15:39 Topdoller wrote: Just buff the lurker with +1 Armour, it useless against Terran at the moment
I don't think that would change anything in Korea. The lurker den takes long enough to finish that the Zerg can just die beforehand. And after that it's just another buff to late game which they honestly don't need in ZvT.
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
Honestly, as a GM Terran player, all I need is to look at statistics, watch GSL, SSL and proleague to notice that in the highest level of play, Zerg is very unfavored in either matchup in a straight up macro game and I believe that's due to the early game weakness of Zerg. Analyse LotV games and the drone count at the start and compare it to how it was in HotS and Wings, I believe Zerg needs it - Another issue is the Protoss chrono boost, I've recently seen mathematics that proove that the chrono in LotV is actually a buff compared to the one in HotS - in addition Protoss can now always afford a super early third base - were these eco changes really appropriate? It might be too big of a buff in the end, but it is certainly worth the try since the high level Zerg are struggling so much in either early game of both ZvP and ZvT.
On June 11 2016 17:54 oGsChess wrote: Honestly, as a GM Terran player, all I need is to look at statistics, watch GSL, SSL and proleague to notice that in the highest level of play, Zerg is very unfavored in either matchup in a straight up macro game and I believe that's due to the early game weakness of Zerg. Analyse LotV games and the drone count at the start and compare it to how it was in HotS and Wings, I believe Zerg needs it - Another issue is the Protoss chrono boost, I've recently seen mathematics that proove that the chrono in LotV is actually a buff compared to the one in HotS - in addition Protoss can now always afford a super early third base - were these eco changes really appropriate? It might be too big of a buff in the end, but it is certainly worth the try since the high level Zerg are struggling so much in either early game of both ZvP and ZvT.
I think you are right, early game economy of Zerg got a big hit when compared to Terran and Toss in LotV.
This got mostly masked due to the fact that Zerg also got a lot of new early game aggressive options and midgame timings with the new units, but now that it basicly got figured out Zerg has a hard time.
Drone losses due to harrasment feels worse then ever and taking one bad engagement in the midgame will just make u straight up lose the game.
Would be much more enjoyable for both sides if the early, mid and lategame were a lot more even.
On June 11 2016 15:39 Topdoller wrote: Just buff the lurker with +1 Armour, it useless against Terran at the moment
I don't think that would change anything in Korea. The lurker den takes long enough to finish that the Zerg can just die beforehand. And after that it's just another buff to late game which they honestly don't need in ZvT.
Well a larva boost would be too much imho, and i thought it was mid game Zergs were getting rolled over,
Foreigner Terran's are garbage in ability, and they would never survive a +1 larva boost At the end of the day Blizzard cant balance the game based on Foreigner- Craft because of lack skill of these players. The game is either an E-sport of it is not
On June 11 2016 18:49 MiCroLiFe wrote: want Code zerg instead of code S?
Code Zerg lol, as a GM Zerg I agree that it is difficult at the moment, I think Zerg def. needs a buff vs Terran and the extra larva sounds appropriate as the timing on a marco hatch in ZvT is needed but very awkward to be able to begin.
On June 11 2016 18:49 MiCroLiFe wrote: is this a joke? did you guys saw how dark A moved into the liberaton zone yesterday? and buff zerg even more? holy? want Code zerg instead of code S?
On June 11 2016 04:20 ejozl wrote: Zerg is weak in Korea, but strong everywhere else. It could be Korean Zergs are a little behind on the meta, they usually adapt a lot slower than Protoss and Terran in Korea. However, it could also be the case that Zerg is the easiest to play, but that it's weaker than the other races. A pure Larvae buff would be so crazy and specifically in Europe, Zergs would be the only viable race, apart from a fringe set of players. I would rather like to see a power increase in Zerg spell casters or some other area that makes the race require more skill, while solving the power level issue.
Yeahh... lets not assume that Koreans are behind in the meta after the last 5 years.
On June 11 2016 18:49 MiCroLiFe wrote: want Code zerg instead of code S?
Code Zerg lol, as a GM Zerg I agree that it is difficult at the moment, I think Zerg def. needs a buff vs Terran and the extra larva sounds appropriate as the timing on a marco hatch in ZvT is needed but very awkward to be able to begin.
Im a master terrna, rank 400 in eu last season. and i have like 10% winrate vs zergs atm. turtle into ultra. drops? everyone stops it quite easy. even if 3 drops at the same time. and if you kill all army, and are lucky, they can respawn it easy.. I litterlay have 10% winrate vs zerg. zerg is dominating, and they will buff zerg? holy? terran needs a buff.
On June 11 2016 15:05 geokilla wrote: Do Zerg players still build macro hatcheries? Is it because of macro and unit changes, like Roach can be mutated into a Ravager for example, the reason why Zergs don't build them anymore?
On June 11 2016 13:37 dyDrawer wrote: Oh let's just increase spawn larva number to 4, it's only an increase of one.
No, it's an increase from 3 to 4, which is 33%. Over the course of a game, how many extra larva do you get with this little change?
Not weighing in on the balance, but the idea of making a change so dramatic is absurd. I thought they said something about baby step changes a while ago?
Queen injects spawn 3 larvae in 29 seconds. For simplicity's sake I'm going to use 30 seconds as a beast case scenario. If Zerg has 3 to 4 Hatcheries in the mid game, that's an extra 6 to 8 units per minute.
What a good post. The actual change of increasing larvae might not be that much at all.
It would make Zerg more resilient to harass, which is needed imo because currently if Zergs are busy restoring their economy, they can't produce army (in early-mid game). On the other hand if the larvae aren't needed for drones, the army supply might increase too much. If that's the case I would rather like to see zerg units slightly nerfed in compensation.
You also address how you might compensate for that. I find it weird, that Zergs can tech switch due to their production mechanic and transform units on the go at the same time(ling to bling, roach to ravager, hydra to lurker, corruptor to broodlord), allowing for even more explosive changes in strategy/timing attacks (consider restricted role of each separate unit though). So if the raised amount of larvae would benefit Zergs too much, it could be compensated for by making them invest the larvae in units they could otherwise morph without investing additional larvae, i.e. by producing for example lurkers, or ravagers (with appropriate production time and resources) directly from larvae after a required upgrade is researched. So you need to plan ahead, instead of just produce lots of roaches, then see: "oh i might need more ravagers" and morph them on the fly. Also the artificial healing effect when you morph units would be gone, giving one unit effectively almost two lives. As this would still lead to a bigger army size than before (since you still need the same amount of larvae for the same composition, though with less "lives"), slightly nerfing basic units like roaches, hydras might be an idea to make them massable without being too strong.
Also the argument, that if Zergs macro mechanic is restored to HotS-niveau, the macro mechanics of Terrans and Protoss have to be improved as well, is weak, since the mechanics certainly have different effects on the gameplay and are now discussed to change the balance in Zergs favour. In the end there are different (probably better) ways to improve ZvT, but ruling out to increase the amount of larvae without testing its effects properly is a bit rash.
On June 11 2016 15:05 geokilla wrote: Queen injects spawn 3 larvae in 29 seconds. For simplicity's sake I'm going to use 30 seconds as a beast case scenario. If Zerg has 3 to 4 Hatcheries in the mid game, that's an extra 6 to 8 units per minute.
In early game that's an extra 6 to 8 drones a minute, which in the midgame turns into way, way more than 6 to extra 8 units a minute.
On June 11 2016 04:20 ejozl wrote: Zerg is weak in Korea, but strong everywhere else. It could be Korean Zergs are a little behind on the meta, they usually adapt a lot slower than Protoss and Terran in Korea. However, it could also be the case that Zerg is the easiest to play, but that it's weaker than the other races. A pure Larvae buff would be so crazy and specifically in Europe, Zergs would be the only viable race, apart from a fringe set of players. I would rather like to see a power increase in Zerg spell casters or some other area that makes the race require more skill, while solving the power level issue.
Yeahh... lets not assume that Koreans are behind in the meta after the last 5 years.
Not really what I'm saying, Korea has a very strong player base of Protoss players, while their Zerg players have been lacking behind in comparison.
I think a larvae change would be very small in zvp in terms of changing the early economy; standard zerg opening is 17h18g17p20h and delays queens (especially 2nd and 3rd queen) for a long time. Also you cant really safely play gasless anymore because adepts exist unlike in hots, so theres no real way to spend that much larvae early on drones. Maybe it will make ling bane based midgame styles a little better and later 3rd (faster 2nd queen instead) a little better but other than that not much
A larva buff test map could be considered, but the change seems far too huge for me. The early game boost it gives is just insane and as they say, it will change the way early game works in a way that could have huge consequences. Drone production will be so fast with this change.
I'm all for buffing Z a bit in both mus, but not this way. I don't think the current balance is so way off you can afford such crazy changes.
That being said I like those short, sensible weekly updates, far more than the long and incoherent ones we had previous to the most recent patch.
On June 11 2016 18:49 MiCroLiFe wrote: is this a joke? did you guys saw how dark A moved into the liberaton zone yesterday? and buff zerg even more? holy? want Code zerg instead of code S?
I'm an INno fan and in all honesty I'm forced to admit that he made very stubborn and poor army comp choice. He shouldn't have lost this series.
Dark didn't a-move, he just used fungle+biles on clumped, non upgraded liberators, while the rest of the army was mostly marines mines and medivacs, with to few marauders, the kind of army that is totally not the answer to roach ravager and ultra. (Darks defence early and mid game was stellar too)
INno choose to rely on his superior mechanics instead of thinking about the meta, that's why he's not in Code S.
The truth is that other than this (INno being beat 2-3 with a bad strategy against the best zerg in the world) ZvT is mostly Terran favored in Korea.
At the begining of LotV, Zerg would make ultra to get an autowin but nowadays they make ultra to avoid an autoloose, and it's not even enough most of the times.
just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc.
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
How did the Marauder get nerfed?
reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1.
so carapace is twice as effective against marauders.
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
How did the Marauder get nerfed?
reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1.
so carapace is twice as effective against marauders.
Guardian shield too, which is why gateway units now beat pure bio.
On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote: just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc.
It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well...
As I have mentioned already several times I see the power of bio as the source of all issues. E.g. when you look back at WOL, bio is the reason TvP evolved solely around bio vs. colossi vs. vikings and who knocks out which hard counter first. Now its gotten a bit more diverse but the fundamental issue with that hasn't been fixed at all. The result is a fest of hardcounters and alot of overpowered units that stand against each other of all races.
Therefore every little tweak in balance has huge leverage and the potential to turn things upside down.
Buffing larva inject back to 4 is bad for the following reason: higher volatility in all matchups. Examples (taking zvz as it is the easiest but applies to all matchups): 1) player a builds 4 roaches, player b builds 4 drones, player a attacks, player a wins is more volatile than: player a builds 3 roaches, player b builds 3 drones, player a attacks, player a wins
2) player a builds 4 roaches, player b builds 4 drones, player a doesn't attack, player b wins is more volatile than: player a builds 3 roaches, player b builds 3 drones, player a doesn't attack, player b wins
Buffing larva will lead to more random play and outcome of games and skill of players making less difference. It will allow players ahead to pull further ahead quicker than now. It will also allow zergs to recover a bit faster, but it is the wrong way to go: In order to allow better recovery for a race it is the wrong way to buff the mechanic that also allows them to pull ahead more. The right thing to do: Nerfing the mechanic that allows the other races to pull ahead so much instead. Nerfing the mule by another 20-30% is the right choice here.
Other issues in current meta: - adepts still too strong - immortals still need to be observed - lurkers seem overall too strong but currently I see few options for change - mothership should be removed or nerfed, it makes skytoss way too invulnerable - tankivacs still a stupid mechanic, in situations zergs can't kill or force away a single tank or two for minutes, escpecially in stituations when behind. Also been observing this issue in teamgames (3on3+), where a terran can drop tanks left and right even between several players and keep the opponent team busy for a long time in some situations. I don't see a valid fix for this in current meta as well as terran needs that right now in order to not be punished too hard for other existing stupid mechanics. - ravagers feel a bit strong but only in some situations, I think a unit of that potential and volatile outcomes should not get in the game before the hydralisk
The example of tankivacs shows perfectly why SC2 balance design is not good. Bad mechanics are in the game and need to be kept in the game to make up for other bad game mechanics.
I suggest the following changes for the current meta following from that: - nerf of mule effect by another 20-30% instead of buffing larva - nerf of adept vanilla, or: - nerf of adept upgrade, or both: probably attack speed nerf is the thing to look at - nerf of lurker projectile speed (spikes moving way slower (50%) across the distance) - removal of tankivacs (still would go for it in order to force blizzard to come up with other soultions for tanks and mech) - warp prism load in range must be reduced by a bit
In general I would prefer an overall overhaul of some basic mechanics of the game in a way that I have mentioned several times before and don't wanna repeat here fully: Starting off with making marauder a t3 unit, nerfing early bio hardcounters then, changing lurkers and ravagers position (and adapt them to their new position in strength and price), potentially changing hydra and roach position too, etc.
Still wanna add some thoughts to that: I am 100% convinced that SC2 needs such a reduction of punishing mechanics in order to create a feeling of fun and satisfaction for players, which is the basis for success on all levels of play.
The root of the problem is terran bio. I like to take examples of WOL in this issue as there it is the most visible. The issue exists still but blizzard has disguised it over the years so that it is less visible now but still fundamental.
A composition of bio is so strong, that the other races needed to get hardcounters to it. That creates punishing gameplay and results in the loss of players along all levels and stages of play.
Bio: - with marine: best anti ground and anti air dps per ressource in the game, costs no gas - with stimpack: almost highest mobility of all units - with medivac: infinite use of stimpacks, drops without risks, harrass without commitment and delay of other tech, further increases mobility to absurdity with the given dps of the units - with marauder: provides enough tankability to the army
Altogether: Highest combination of dps, mobility and tankability of any basic unit army in the game. It is fucking ridiculous.
Result: 1. From the beginning of SC2 the whole game evolves around bio vs. its hardcounters, which needed to be given to the other races to compete with bio at all. 2. Within the terran race nothing can compete with bio. Mech isn't that bad, bio is just too strong and the counters to bio also counter mech way too well. Therefore mech is not viable (due to bio). Mech on its own can't be pushed to the same level as bio as it then would create stupid imbalance in combination with bio.
Further Results: 3. These hardcounters create punishing gameplay everywhere. Battles are about if vikings take out 1-2 colossi fast enough so that bio can roll over the rest of a protoss army or not and then the hard counter of colossi rolls over the bio army. A game that evolves around such mechanics certainly is dependent alot on luck and lucky positionings and timings. A game of 15-20 minutes can be decided solely within the 2 seconds of an engagement if colossi are 1-2 tiles too far out on screen and being taken out or not. This is what nobody wants and what drives players away from this strategy game. This is not about strategy but solely about macroing up the quickest and then have everything positioned perfectly in the first few seconds of a fight.
Again I use WOL examples for better visibility. The same fundament is subject to LOTV however. Now we have funny shit going on like 30 adepts shading on a bio army an force gg. Stuff that everybody hopes for when playing or watching pro-sc2 I guess! Good work! I guess it was much wiser to introduce this stupid stuff in countless nubers in the mindset of buffs over nerfs instead of simply fixing the basic issues that already came up in the very beginning of WOL when terran was ridiculously overpowered and won games with "bit by bit-prime" moves or 2-4 helions moving in. Instead of toning down stuff they created more and more overpowered options for the other races and here we are moving in circles not getting the fundamental issue of SC2 under control. And you don't need to be a visionary to say what hasn't been fixed within the past 5 years wont be fixed in the next 5 years if means, tools and mindsets don't change.
And let me tell you one secret. When I talk to other people who made Starcraft what it is today, broodwar players from the first hours, they all exactly come to this result: SC2 is not BW, issues wont ever get fixed, I rather spend my time with other games, here we go, gg no re. And the thing is, the more you moved on this path the more stuff you created that cannot or can hardly be reversed. Everybody with an idea sees, recognizes and finally has to accept this. It leaves not much hope and not much else than turning back to the game. Just think of my idea of putting a fundamental hole into bio by removing the marauder and moving it to tier 3: Why would we need the adept then? What to do with ravagers? They counter tanks way too well and too early so that they need tankivac option. And so on.
------ Let me add one example to back up the argument of loss of players of all levels. An example for noob WOL play: 1. - Terran builds mass bio and forgets to build vikings - he attacks protoss and recognizes that protoss has already 5 colossi + some basic units. - he loses the fight without even killing one colossi as everything is being burned through within seconds. 2. - Protoss builds alot of gateway units - he attack terran and has to find out that nothing can even remotely face the dps and survivability of bio. - he loses the fight with only killing about 15-25% of the bio army while losing everything himself even tho they both had same army value and a-moved into each other.
Do you seriously think this is good game design and ppl enjoy the abuse of hardcounters for years which leave almost no room for even little variations?
The right conclusions for gameplay changes would have been: - bio in the first place should not be able to wreck everything that has no colossi mixed in that much, therefore we need to nerf bio - after that we now don't need the colossi to be that strong anymore Resulting in: - smoother transitions - less punishing gameplay - more potential of players to make the fight happen in their way than only depending on the right choice of units and perfect positioning at the first 2 seconds of fights.
Is David Kim sure that the Zergs struggle with zvt early & mid game not because of liberators? It basically forces Zerg to turtle and go roach ravager every game
Is David Kim sure that the Zergs struggle with zvt early & mid game not because of liberators? It basically forces Zerg to turtle and go roach ravager every game
On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote: just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc.
It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well...
in case of terran - okay. in case of toss - not really. yes, cb was nerfed (or not? someone mentioned in here, that it was a buff for cb). anyway, because of pylon overcharge, toss can take their 3rd much faster than in hots and that means, more probe production than in hots/wol, so worker production should at minimum be on pair with the production in hots/wol.
On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote: just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc.
It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well...
in case of terran - okay. in case of toss - not really. yes, cb was nerfed (or not? someone mentioned in here, that it was a buff for cb). anyway, because of pylon overcharge, toss can take their 3rd much faster than in hots and that means, more probe production than in hots/wol, so worker production should at minimum be on pair with the production in hots/wol.
"or not?" ???
dude, speed boost went from 50% to 15%, how can this not be a nerf?
On June 11 2016 21:22 DalaiiLameR wrote: just curious, why is a 3 to 4 larva change so huge? it was in wol and hots 4 larva and it was fine! sure, chrono boost + mule got nerfed (or not @chronoboost?) and inject is now stackable. BUT, toss got overcharge pylons for early game defense and terran.. terran got bunkers and tanks etc.
yes, zerg could drone up to 60-80 drones quicker, but it would be just as fast as it was in hots and wol.
the only danger i would see, is that ravager pushes could be a little bit to strong in early game, but if that would be the case, you could adjust ravager - maybe need liar to morph them etc.
It would be just as fast as in HotS and WoL while P and T macro got nerfed. If you don't see why this could be a problem, well...
in case of terran - okay. in case of toss - not really. yes, cb was nerfed (or not? someone mentioned in here, that it was a buff for cb). anyway, because of pylon overcharge, toss can take their 3rd much faster than in hots and that means, more probe production than in hots/wol, so worker production should at minimum be on pair with the production in hots/wol.
"or not?" ???
dude, speed boost went from 50% to 15%, how can this not be a nerf?
"Honestly, as a GM Terran player, all I need is to look at statistics, watch GSL, SSL and proleague to notice that in the highest level of play, Zerg is very unfavored in either matchup in a straight up macro game and I believe that's due to the early game weakness of Zerg. Analyse LotV games and the drone count at the start and compare it to how it was in HotS and Wings, I believe Zerg needs it - Another issue is the Protoss chrono boost, I've recently seen mathematics that proove that the chrono in LotV is actually a buff compared to the one in HotS - in addition Protoss can now always afford a super early third base - were these eco changes really appropriate? It might be too big of a buff in the end, but it is certainly worth the try since the high level Zerg are struggling so much in either early game of both ZvP and ZvT."
im just quoting oGsChess. would be nice to see some sources of this, but if hes gm player, i believe him.
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
How did the Marauder get nerfed?
reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1.
so carapace is twice as effective against marauders.
Guardian shield too, which is why gateway units now beat pure bio.
What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
If you feel Zerg is weak, buff the Lurker then. The unit is almost totally useless right now, nobody builds them against Terran and in ZvP, they get shat over by mass Immortal so one-sidedly that it's not even funny.
ZvT could be great, if reasonable numbers of lurkers were basically unbeatable in chokes by bio, as it was in BW. Then we'd see tanks again (possibly buffed in damage, as everyone begs for years) and all sorts of positional shenenigans, with both sides trying to strike where the other's position-holding units aren't.
I am personally not really convinced that a patch is needed, but at this point, I feel why not, shaking up the game is always fun to watch.
On June 12 2016 00:13 Diabolique wrote: What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
Something like that would be much more reasonable and easy to tune.
Balance at the top is always hard to "justify" the right calls. But i think the game shouldnt only focus on the top players. F.e. i like how they buffed the colossus with the reason: it wont effect top players, but will help out the less insane APM players who can use disruptors. Thats something everyone can support. The casuals keep the game alive, keeping the viewership up etc. And here comes my point: sub top terran players are struggling vs zerg and toss. The new units/abilities/buffs really messed up the game. I would vote for a liberator nerf air to ground. But besides the liberator there isnt much else viable with bio. A random thor? too expensive and slow. BC's? you need a huge amount of them to get that beefy punch. Parasitic bomb cant be dodged, unlike seeker missles. ravager are big in size and therefor splash damage doesnt have much effect. Sees a few mines? corrosive bile spell and gone are the mines. Flat damage vs everything. Nydus cant be killed. The real counter to ultras is only ghosts because marauder nerf. Burrowed lurkers? suprise here are some spikes in your behind, cant see them and no way to kill the like zerg is able to do with Ravagers. Liberators show a huge line where the siege is, unlike the other units. Storm+tempest/carriers are out? GG "you shouldnt let the toss get that army" , even top gm's are struggling vs it or instant lose, but yeah, no problems here. The list is endless, so many things can be improved to add more fun/fairness in the game.
But just like fixing the Cyclone bug, lets ignore it....
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all.
If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
Blizzard said they didnt want to see the bio parades anymore, so they nerfed the maruader and buffed the ultralisk. What do we get as result: Still bio pushes with a (bio unit) ghost to counter the counter to bio. But the biggest change is ofcourse the liberator. Every game the same builds, every game we see the same units, i dont even watch Tournaments anymore with terrans in it, or watch tournaments at all. And im not the only one, people are bored of it, views for streamers and tournaments are going down rapidly.
How did the Marauder get nerfed?
reduced dmg and 2 shots instead of 1.
so carapace is twice as effective against marauders.
Guardian shield too, which is why gateway units now beat pure bio.
um no lol.
On even upgrades with equal micro skill adept (with glaives)/blink stalker/sentry under guardian shields beats MMM. If you add liberators/mines/ghosts it goes in Terran favor.
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio Liberators: Increase supply to 4, radius nerf Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time) Lurker: Reduce range to 8 Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8) Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100, nerf range pickup Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2 Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time) Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
On June 12 2016 00:54 MaxTa wrote: Some suggestions:
TERRAN
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio Liberators: Increase supply to 4, radius nerf Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time) Lurker: Reduce range to 8 Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8) Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100, nerf range pickup Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2 Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time) Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
I can vote for this, not perfect, but its a good start.
On June 12 2016 00:13 Diabolique wrote: What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
On June 12 2016 00:39 Teoita wrote: Something like that would be much more reasonable and easy to tune.
+1 yea
it is a good idea. using this thinking the # of larva is a continuous variable rather than a discreet variable.
On June 11 2016 15:42 Ranari wrote: I watch a lot of SC2 and I don't see Terran OP at all. If anything though, please make mech viable, and I'm not even one of those guys that just wants to see Mech made viable 'cause I have a crush on loving me some mech. I just grow tired of watching MMM being the dominant composition for 3 released in a row (WoL, HotS, and now Lotv). I'd like me some variety to watch!
you should acknowledge that its hard to take your 9 posts seriously when all you talk about are siege tanks. On the odd occasion when my views somewhat align with avilo's its much more credible. I requested a very general thing: weaker Terran air and stronger Terran ground. To some degree this aligned with his constant evangelizing of mech. Whereas, you are pretty much parroting his views.
On June 12 2016 00:13 Diabolique wrote: What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
On June 12 2016 00:39 Teoita wrote: Something like that would be much more reasonable and easy to tune.
+1 yea
it is a good idea. using this thinking the # of larva is a continuous variable rather than a discreet variable.
You'd need quite some time to test the results, though. It would take weeks, if not months, for a large volume of people to get really good at injecting again, if you change the cooldown. Good injecting is a subliminal thing. I am not any good in SC2, but even I now get a pretty reliable twitch "I should be injecting any second" without looking at any external source of time and that takes a while to change. Until then, the results will be too unstable to judge the impact.
Increasing larvas seems insane... Zerg production is already good with auto injects queue and faster creep spread. Like people are saying, if production is an issue just add a macro hatch after your 3rd... it's already cheaper at 300 mines instead of 400 so why not..? Also, I can't imagine how silly the early game all-ins with banes bust/ drop and ravagers would be with more larvas... Zerg would also easily out macro the other races in worker count and would overpower too quickly if left alone...
On June 12 2016 00:13 Diabolique wrote: What about increasing the larvae, but not from 3 to 4, but to some ~3.5 through decreasing energy needed and cooldown? So it would be still 3 larvas, but they would be available after 25 s (instead of 29 s), and would need just 20-21 energy (instead of 25)?
On June 12 2016 00:39 Teoita wrote: Something like that would be much more reasonable and easy to tune.
+1 yea
it is a good idea. using this thinking the # of larva is a continuous variable rather than a discreet variable.
You'd need quite some time to test the results, though. It would take weeks, if not months, for a large volume of people to get really good at injecting again, if you change the cooldown. Good injecting is a subliminal thing. I am not any good in SC2, but even I now get a pretty reliable twitch "I should be injecting any second" without looking at any external source of time and that takes a while to change. Until then, the results will be too unstable to judge the impact.
good point.
what you can do is alter the # of larva that pop out in the following way. lets assume 0<x<1 ,
<<inject>> 3+x , because x<1 you hold that in the bank for the next inject. <<inject>> 3+x+x if 2x>1 then pump out an additional larva. and we have x-1 larva in bank waiting for the next inject.
this allows Zerg players to maintain their timing and every inject either results in 3 or 4 larva popping out.
On June 12 2016 01:13 MaxTa wrote: Increasing larvas seems insane... Zerg production is already good with auto injects queue and faster creep spread. Like people are saying, if production is an issue just add a macro hatch after your 3rd... it's already cheaper at 300 mines instead of 400 so why not..? Also, I can't imagine how silly the early game all-ins with banes bust/ drop and ravagers would be with more larvas... Zerg would also easily out macro the other races in worker count and would overpower too quickly if left alone...
its 350 mins (including the drone) but nvm. i dont see really many pros nowadays build macrohatches. tbh, i dont know why.
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
Problem with this is that Zerg is very powerful at Hive tech and very....fragile, not weak or UP or anything, just very fragile in the early game.
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
Feels like there is something unjustified in the reasoning here on what the long term plan is. For me, I'd prefer an upgrade so that you are choosing between more queens, ranged, and melee styles as a sort of round robin of build ideas, with the cores being defensive queens, ravager den upgrade, a spawning pool upgrade, drops, and spire units. Maybe the long term plan is with a larvae buff we'll see zergling/ravager/lurker/ultra nerfs. Seems like something unsaid about the styles players are playing and the goals of the buff, with the optimal style not being the one preferred in the racial design. Doesn't fix the difficulty in scouting zerg plans, nor stability in the matchup.
Aside, I notice a lot of the feedback is coming from zerg pros, with little representation from terran and protoss pros.
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
Problem with this is that Zerg is very powerful at Hive tech and very....fragile, not weak or UP or anything, just very fragile in the early game.
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Zerg is somehow fragile to early game allins, we aren't in 2010 anymore and Zergs don't die all the time to random all-ins that they barely miss scouting. Zerg may well have problems in the midgame vs Terran and lategame vs Protoss, but i think their early game is just fine.
How about giving Zerg one of two Larva more at the start of the game. Than they have sooner more income and afford Units of tech sooner as this snowballs quite hard
If Nerchio say that like give more time to ZVT, I think it is fine. But Snute recently either in steam or in matches performance very badly in ZVT, I don't know why Snute has confident to say that. I think Snute should try some time play games with Kaspa players.
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
We do not need a repeat of patch 1.4.3BU.
People need to remember what happened to the game when an extremely powerful late game became almost trivial to reach.
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
We do not need a repeat of patch 1.4.3BU.
People need to remember what happened to the game when an extremely powerful late game became almost trivial to reach.
I agree that we don´t wan´t to see another blink stalker era
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
Problem with this is that Zerg is very powerful at Hive tech and very....fragile, not weak or UP or anything, just very fragile in the early game.
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Zerg is somehow fragile to early game allins, we aren't in 2010 anymore and Zergs don't die all the time to random all-ins that they barely miss scouting. Zerg may well have problems in the midgame vs Terran and lategame vs Protoss, but i think their early game is just fine.
only because we open overlord speed every game in zvp and zvt (which is very expensive for how early you need to get it)
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
Problem with this is that Zerg is very powerful at Hive tech and very....fragile, not weak or UP or anything, just very fragile in the early game.
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Zerg is somehow fragile to early game allins, we aren't in 2010 anymore and Zergs don't die all the time to random all-ins that they barely miss scouting. Zerg may well have problems in the midgame vs Terran and lategame vs Protoss, but i think their early game is just fine.
only because we open overlord speed every game in zvp and zvt (which is very expensive for how early you need to get it)
On June 12 2016 01:26 pzlama333 wrote: How about keep larva injection for hatchery at 3, but 4 for lair and more for hive?
Problem with this is that Zerg is very powerful at Hive tech and very....fragile, not weak or UP or anything, just very fragile in the early game.
The larvae buff is asinine, I think an easier solution is just to make Queens a slight bit tougher, either give them a very slight damage buff or maybe give them +1 armor naturally, maybe a slight speed boost on creep even. I think making the stock base defense will allow Zergs to not just die to early game attacks so easily and they will still be hilariously weak in the later stages of the game.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Zerg is somehow fragile to early game allins, we aren't in 2010 anymore and Zergs don't die all the time to random all-ins that they barely miss scouting. Zerg may well have problems in the midgame vs Terran and lategame vs Protoss, but i think their early game is just fine.
only because we open overlord speed every game in zvp and zvt (which is very expensive for how early you need to get it)
Then why do they start changing the cost of that?
I think it's pretty crazy to have overlord speed on hatch tech, one of the most overlooked changes in LOTV. It does cost 100/100 but it's a huge thing - if it wasn't so good, people wouldn't get it. If anything, i think that base overlord speed could be changed for LOTV rather than making it a 50/50 upgrade that everybody got on hatch tech.
There is a very simple solution to this. Let the 4 larva buff happen and nerf the inject stacking. Thats what it was before and no one ever had a problem with that. The reason why Korean Zerg is struggling vs Terran is because at the top level they were always hitting their injects on time. They didn't need to stack their injects. The original change greatly reduced the amount of larva a top player can produce. Maybe instead of having inject stacking we could have a faster cast rate for injects or even a slightly longer range. Something small to not be able to tip the balances too far.
On June 12 2016 11:39 Exquisite7 wrote: There is a very simple solution to this. Let the 4 larva buff happen and nerf the inject stacking. Thats what it was before and no one ever had a problem with that. The reason why Korean Zerg is struggling vs Terran is because at the top level they were always hitting their injects on time. They didn't need to stack their injects. The original change greatly reduced the amount of larva a top player can produce. Maybe instead of having inject stacking we could have a faster cast rate for injects or even a slightly longer range. Something small to not be able to tip the balances too far.
Except that no one had a problem with mules or chrono before yet both of those mechanics were nerfed. If they returned larva to 4 that would be similar to giving Terran back old mule or p back old chrono. Can you imagine if either of those mechanics were to have made it into lotv while the others were nerfed?
If balance is indeed out of the window atm, I would like to see Blizzard use this opportunity to change some of the designs of the game for the better. -boring units (Hellbats/Tempests) -quality of life (Chrono Boost change to make it similar to Larvae Inject) -Mutalisk lopsided affair (without the appropriate counters, this unit reigns supreme, but with the counters in place, they lose all value.) -Frustrating units (Oracle, Medivac Boost) -Tankivacs (fix TvT and identity) -Making cool interactions: For instance Lurker vs Bio, right now it's not something we see. If perhaps Lurkers did 30 damage to all types, but the Spikes had more delay, after the attack, we could see more cool micro.
Fact they are looking at a change like number of larva is concerning. That's a big change can't believe at this point that is on the table, should have been figured out in the Beta.
Blizz really has no clue. I also think asking Korean Pro players always sounds so good but those players are the ones that have the most to gain or lose with any changes. In general player feedback is always going to be biased. Just make the game fun, the units cool, and then give it time and things can balance on their own. But with so many bad units and poor design they are constantly looking to patch the game because the players lack the tools(units) to be creative. There is no meta development just a perpetual patching process that lacks because the units in the game are so one dimensional or useless.
I think it's quite clear in their post they received the feedback of some KR pros about the potential larva buff but are skeptical about it since they're aware of the fact it could have a huge impact on the overall game. So let's not get too carried over here.
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio Liberators: Increase supply to 4 OR radius nerf Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time) Lurker: Reduce range to 8 Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8) Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100 OR nerf range pickup Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2 Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95) OR increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time) Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
On June 12 2016 21:11 [PkF] Wire wrote: I think it's quite clear in their post they received the feedback of some KR pros about the potential larva buff but are skeptical about it since they're aware of the fact it could have a huge impact on the overall game. So let's not get too carried over here.
The fact that they're considering it at all is a huge warning sign, especially because they're doing this in response to talking with a handful of unknown pro players that pretty clearly don't have the interests of the game at heart. And then that's the only balance related thing they posted this week too. It feels like it's trying to push the community into accepting a very large zerg buff when the reality on the ground doesn't justify one. Don't be surprised next week when they push a less extreme buff as a 'compromise' when they haven't even made the case that zerg even needs a buff in the first place.
On June 12 2016 11:39 Exquisite7 wrote: There is a very simple solution to this. Let the 4 larva buff happen and nerf the inject stacking. Thats what it was before and no one ever had a problem with that. The reason why Korean Zerg is struggling vs Terran is because at the top level they were always hitting their injects on time. They didn't need to stack their injects. The original change greatly reduced the amount of larva a top player can produce. Maybe instead of having inject stacking we could have a faster cast rate for injects or even a slightly longer range. Something small to not be able to tip the balances too far.
Except that no one had a problem with mules or chrono before yet both of those mechanics were nerfed. If they returned larva to 4 that would be similar to giving Terran back old mule or p back old chrono. Can you imagine if either of those mechanics were to have made it into lotv while the others were nerfed?
Ur right, but yet somehow zerg got a way bigger nerf in their mechanics then Terran and Toss got, Zerg injects has a big effect on all eco and production.
Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time)
That would make them have a 0.1 speed disadvantage instead of a 0.35 advantage over Mutalisks. That alone would be a massive change without making them take 1.4x longer to build. You'd just be making the game more about P losing if you don't have enough stargates to handle muta switch rather than actually improving muta v phoenix/protoss interactions (i think the way to go there is more accessible softer counters like improved stalker AA-vs-light, meanwhile nerfing the harder counters like phoenix and liberator AA-light-splash)
Ur right, but yet somehow zerg got a way bigger nerf in their mechanics then Terran and Toss got
Chrono boost effectiveness (in terms of seconds saved per minute) was nerfed by about 1.45x IIRC while also being changed so that you cannot stack or pool the effects any more which was very important for chrono before LOTV. Chrono also takes effect at 0 seconds (unlike the macro mechanics of the other races) which is a big part of its strength. I think that you're underestimating the power of unnerfed chrono here
On June 13 2016 00:34 MaxTa wrote: Some suggestions:
TERRAN
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio Liberators: Increase supply to 4, radius nerf Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time) Lurker: Reduce range to 8 Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8) Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100, nerf range pickup Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2 Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time) Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
I don't understand the P suggestions.
1/ Warp prism : increase cost OR remove range, not both 2/ 50/72 sentry is OP 3/ phoenix would not even do well vs mutas with that
Only 4 makes sense.
Overall I think that's far too many changes for a game that is not so bad currently.
Honestly I don't think the larva change will work out even close to how they expect it to. I think it will just make bad terrans lose worse but won't actually help zergs beat good terrans. Increasing larva is great and all, but its still too easy for Terran (and to a lesser extend Protoss) to disrupt injecting or kill larva outright. Terran has both reaper grenades and liberators to disrupt queens or kill larva out right, and as long as its much easier for a terran to kill/disrupt larva than it is for Zerg to defend against it increasing larva won't solve the problem at the highest level.
On June 12 2016 11:39 Exquisite7 wrote: There is a very simple solution to this. Let the 4 larva buff happen and nerf the inject stacking. Thats what it was before and no one ever had a problem with that. The reason why Korean Zerg is struggling vs Terran is because at the top level they were always hitting their injects on time. They didn't need to stack their injects. The original change greatly reduced the amount of larva a top player can produce. Maybe instead of having inject stacking we could have a faster cast rate for injects or even a slightly longer range. Something small to not be able to tip the balances too far.
Except that no one had a problem with mules or chrono before yet both of those mechanics were nerfed. If they returned larva to 4 that would be similar to giving Terran back old mule or p back old chrono. Can you imagine if either of those mechanics were to have made it into lotv while the others were nerfed?
I think you're missing the point though. The inject stacking was supposed to be a way of balancing the fact that larva count went down from 4 to 3. However at the highest level inject stacking isn't even needed. Therefore Korean Zerg only ever got a nerf in lotv. And there are always other options to increase the rate that Zerg can produce larva at an equal rate in ZvT such as decreasing the spawn time for larva and decreasing the energy cost but keeping it at 3. Or even trying to increase cost of energy and spawn time with 4 larva rate.
On June 13 2016 00:34 MaxTa wrote: Some suggestions:
TERRAN
Siege Tank: give +10 or +15 damage bonus agaisn't protoss shield, remove tankivacs Medivacs: Increase energy cost for healing bio Liberators: Increase supply to 4, radius nerf Cyclone: Lower cost to 150/75/2, increase hp to 150
ZERG
Ravager: Increase morph time to 20s (instead of 9s hots time) Lurker: Reduce range to 8 Ultra: back to 6 armor in total (instead of 8) Nydus: remove invulnerability, lower cost to 150/50
PROTOSS
Warp Prism: Increase cost to 200/100, nerf range pickup Sentry: Lower cost to 50/75/2 Phenix: Reduce move speed to 5.5 (instead of 5.95), increase creation time to 35s (instead of 25s hots time) Tempest: Increase to 6 supply cost
I don't understand the P suggestions.
1/ Warp prism : increase cost OR remove range, not both 2/ 50/72 sentry is OP 3/ phoenix would not even do well vs mutas with that
Only 4 makes sense.
Overall I think that's far too many changes for a game that is not so bad currently.
TBH the Tempest change is the only one that makes sense.
On June 11 2016 04:12 Teoita wrote: The larva change is a really stupid idea. If you aren't sure a change is needed (and imo in this case it isn't), don't make a massive and potentially game breaking one...
On June 11 2016 04:02 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, the Larvae increase is ABSURD, build a damn Macro Hatch, it is easy enough right now to inject and mass Larvae.
you have to keep in mind that macro hatcheries aren't free, in fact, you can't afford to make a macro hatch before taking your 4th in ZvT
They aren't free, but Zergs aren't losing because they lack unit production in the early game, so i don't see what 4 larvae per hatch does that a macro hatch doesn't, except making Zerg revolve entirely too much around hitting perfect injects which a lot of people dislike.
You can stack injects very easily now. You can even shift click queue them up.
I'm suggesting tons of changes, of course I would not apply all of them at once... common sense guys... This OR That... Phoenix speed nerf OR creation time nerf, Warp Prism higher cost OR drop range nerf... Pick your bet
And Pheonix are op, hell you don't even need their range upgrade at this point they just trash almost any air and ground unit... Actually airtoss is OP and has been for a long time and needs a nerf badly...
I would aslo like to see the medivacs requiring more energy to heal bio or maybe reduce healing rate, this way stim would really have to be used at the right moment and it would also require more medivacs in unit comp, so less liberators...
On June 13 2016 05:34 MaxTa wrote: I'm suggesting tons of changes, of course I would not apply all of them at once... common sense guys... This OR That... Phoenix speed nerf OR creation time nerf, Warp Prism higher cost OR drop range nerf... Pick your bet
This is the SC2 community, don't ask for common sense, also I agree with most of your changes.
On June 13 2016 05:38 MaxTa wrote: And Pheonix are op, hell you don't even need their range upgrade at this point they just trash almost any air and ground unit... Actually airtoss is OP and has been for a long time and needs a nerf badly...
On June 13 2016 05:38 MaxTa wrote: And Pheonix are op, hell you don't even need their range upgrade at this point they just trash almost any air and ground unit... Actually airtoss is OP and has been for a long time and needs a nerf badly...
It's simple, I think the big correction P needs is on stargate basically... Terran I would say Bio/Libs nerf with siege tank buff... And then, Zerg would at least need Ultra nerf...
Why should bio-lib be nerfed? It's a beautiful style, the positional play of tank-based mech combined with the multitasking and micro of bio.
LotV TvP in particular is a pleasure to watch at the highest levels. Watching an S-tier terran like Ty pushing across the map by leapfrogging liberators and mines, while poking with ghosts and sending out drops to harass and gain map control is amazing.
I'd love it if more terran units were viable, but not at the expense of killing bio-lib.
The shade ability of the adept needs to be taken a look at. One of the fundamental principles of a RTS game is positioning (with good position, you can win or hold out against a larger stronger force). In other words, learning how to position your army is what makes the "strategy" component of the game there. However adepts completely ignore this principle with their shade ability. Any sort of formation or positional advantage the enemy player has becomes completely useless since the adept can just nullify it with one click.
Blizzard needs to increase the cooldown of the shade ability and/or make it so that the shades themselves are attackable. For similar reasons, the warp prism pickup radius and stalker blink also needs to be taken another look at. Abilities that decrease the importance of positioning are bad for gameplay in general.
Why should bio-lib be nerfed? It's a beautiful style, the positional play of tank-based mech combined with the multitasking and micro of bio.
LotV TvP in particular is a pleasure to watch at the highest levels. Watching an S-tier terran like Ty pushing across the map by leapfrogging liberators and mines, while poking with ghosts and sending out drops to harass and gain map control is amazing.
I'd love it if more terran units were viable, but not at the expense of killing bio-lib.
Well... Not really... We have all seen beautiful Bio/drop and mines positioning for 5 years now and honestly, I think it's not that amazing now, don't know where you've been all that time ^^ And did you mention tank based army ? Rofl ?? It's not because we see 2-3 tankivacs during whole game that tanks are back...
Why should bio-lib be nerfed? It's a beautiful style, the positional play of tank-based mech combined with the multitasking and micro of bio.
LotV TvP in particular is a pleasure to watch at the highest levels. Watching an S-tier terran like Ty pushing across the map by leapfrogging liberators and mines, while poking with ghosts and sending out drops to harass and gain map control is amazing.
I'd love it if more terran units were viable, but not at the expense of killing bio-lib.
Well... Not really... We have all seen beautiful Bio/drop and mines positioning for 5 years now and honestly, I think it's not that amazing now, don't know where you've been all that time ^^
I don't know don't know what bio play you've been watching all this time, but it certainly wasn't what we see today. Bio has never had a hard zone-control unit like the liberator to complement it (WOL marine-tank came closest, but tanks were always too weak to do the job properly).
And did you mention tank based army ? Rofl ?? It's not because we see 2-3 tankivacs during whole game that tanks are back...
I never said that "tanks are back". In the future, please read what I actually write instead of making things up.
I don't know don't know what bio play you've been watching all this time, but it certainly wasn't what we see today. Bio has never had a hard zone-control unit like the liberator to complement it
My ideas for the liberator and to try and help zerg early game
Liberator: Change AG damage from 85 to 79+15 to massive. Makes it quite better against Archons and Colossus (from 5 to 4 shots), Ultras and Thors. Before the first attack upgrade, it’s a serious nerf against hydras (2 shots) and stalkers (3). Becomes slightly worse against everything else that it doesn’t one shot, but the rest of important interactions should remain unchanged since it still two shots zealots/adepts/roaches/ravagers and 3 shots queens. Also Terran lacks a unit with bonus vs massive.
Baneling Nest: Slightly reduce building time and/or reduce baneling speed upgrade cost to 100/100. Banelings are pretty good at defending against terran bio and adepts afaik. Maybe making them more accessible and earlier could help zergs early game?
TvZ has usually had some unit like this going all the way back to marine tank medivac WOL
Mines can control space to an extent, but not like liberators. Their attack is too easily baited out, their range is too short, and their cooldown is too long to be a true deterrent.
Like I said, WoL marine-tank is the closest thing to what I'm talking about, but tanks were never up to the job (and they were totally unviable in TvP outside of timings). Instead of locking down areas of the map, tanks were used for splash support against banelings, and to siege buildings to force the zerg into engaging into a bad position or earlier than they would want to.
Edit: This is ignoring TvT. WoL and HotS TvT have always had this heavy emphasis on positional play because tanks were always good at blowing up bio. But you never really saw that dynamic in the non-mirrors until LotV.
On June 13 2016 16:46 Salteador Neo wrote: My ideas for the liberator and to try and help zerg early game
Liberator: Change AG damage from 85 to 79+15 to massive. Makes it quite better against Archons and Colossus (from 5 to 4 shots), Ultras and Thors. Before the first attack upgrade, it’s a serious nerf against hydras (2 shots) and stalkers (3). Becomes slightly worse against everything else that it doesn’t one shot, but the rest of important interactions should remain unchanged since it still two shots zealots/adepts/roaches/ravagers and 3 shots queens. Also Terran lacks a unit with bonus vs massive.
Baneling Nest: Slightly reduce building time and/or reduce baneling speed upgrade cost to 100/100. Banelings are pretty good at defending against terran bio and adepts afaik. Maybe making them more accessible and earlier could help zergs early game?
wouldnt change anything. hydras are just crap against terran. it doesnt matter, if libs need 1,2 or more shots to kill hydra, because they get just rekt by tanks. its rly hard, to make hydras playabe in zvt. only thing i could imagine would be a hp buff, but that would affect zvp and zvz also.
and banenest. no. just no! its fine as it is. the zerg has to scout, if an adept allin etc is coming, then you have enough time for a banenest or even roaches. a faster banenest would just make zvz into a ling bane allin only matchup.
On June 13 2016 10:57 Loccstana wrote: The shade ability of the adept needs to be taken a look at. One of the fundamental principles of a RTS game is positioning (with good position, you can win or hold out against a larger stronger force). In other words, learning how to position your army is what makes the "strategy" component of the game there. However adepts completely ignore this principle with their shade ability. Any sort of formation or positional advantage the enemy player has becomes completely useless since the adept can just nullify it with one click.
Blizzard needs to increase the cooldown of the shade ability and/or make it so that the shades themselves are attackable. For similar reasons, the warp prism pickup radius and stalker blink also needs to be taken another look at. Abilities that decrease the importance of positioning are bad for gameplay in general.
What about making it a bit like Recall, so the last second before they appear, they can be shot, but cannot shoot or move.
I feel like the early terran pushes are too strong, specialy when they can abuse the map with tankiavacs.
Also the endeless stream of marines from 3 bases is really hard to deal with. Once your banes are gone you have no time to morph more, and lings are garbage.
Keep in mind that i play ling bane muta, so i'm not sure how roach ravager players feel about the balance.
Only thing i can think of that needs changing for zerg is either Queen AA armored buff slightly, or fit the swarmhost better in the meta.. nerf locus damage and give them the free extended time upgrade.
On June 13 2016 10:57 Loccstana wrote: The shade ability of the adept needs to be taken a look at. One of the fundamental principles of a RTS game is positioning (with good position, you can win or hold out against a larger stronger force). In other words, learning how to position your army is what makes the "strategy" component of the game there. However adepts completely ignore this principle with their shade ability. Any sort of formation or positional advantage the enemy player has becomes completely useless since the adept can just nullify it with one click.
Blizzard needs to increase the cooldown of the shade ability and/or make it so that the shades themselves are attackable. For similar reasons, the warp prism pickup radius and stalker blink also needs to be taken another look at. Abilities that decrease the importance of positioning are bad for gameplay in general.
What about making it a bit like Recall, so the last second before they appear, they can be shot, but cannot shoot or move.
And shade right in the middle of the Tanks to cause massive friendly fire... yeah. Adept's shade being targetable is not the anwser.
If the problem with ZvP is mid-game imbalance in favor of Protoss, why don't they just increase larva count from 3 to 4 on Lairs instead of Hatcheries? If late-game is still imbalanced, they could increase larva count from 4 to 5 on Hives.
Pro zerg players will almost never have more than one Lair/Hive anyway because it's not cost effective, so this idea wouldn't be as drastic as the one currently suggested.
Incremental idea: (3 Hatcheries x 3 Larvae) = 9 Larvae (2 Hatcheries x 3 Larvae) + (1 Lairs x 4 Larvae) = 10 Larvae (2 Hatcheries x 3 Larvae) + (1 Hive x 5 Larvae) = 11 Larvae
Blizzard's current idea: (3 Hatcheries x 4 Larvae) = 12 Larvae
On June 13 2016 16:29 SentryKing wrote: Nice to see that everyone thinks he would do better in terms of balancing changes than blizz....kind of ridiculous xD
Balancing on statistical average like Blizzard does is not hard to do. Pretty much anyone with a brain can do that.
On June 13 2016 16:29 SentryKing wrote: Nice to see that everyone thinks he would do better in terms of balancing changes than blizz....kind of ridiculous xD
Balancing on statistical average like Blizzard does is not hard to do. Pretty much anyone with a brain can do that.
How presumptuous and naive. You're the epitome of what he is making fun of.
On June 13 2016 16:29 SentryKing wrote: Nice to see that everyone thinks he would do better in terms of balancing changes than blizz....kind of ridiculous xD
Balancing on statistical average like Blizzard does is not hard to do. Pretty much anyone with a brain can do that.
How presumptuous and naive. You're the epitome of what he is making fun of.
Well go ahead and think that then. I think you are presumptuous and naive. But hey we can insult each other with character flaws all day if that's what you are aiming for.
While this might come as a bit of a surprise, we’re still getting a lot of feedback from specific Korean pro players that Zerg has no chance vs. Terran.
Really... it took months to figure that one out. Liberators and the fact Terran has been able to keep up with the same income as Zerg since hots which made zergs main strength as a macro race half as good as in WoL. Then there is the skill contradiction(LOTV = were going to make the game for skill based and balanced this way) that when terran uses liberators to harass whether its to deny mining or kill drones which equally does just as bad, the zerg player is multi tasking between a lot of macro micro things whilst the terran player is staring at a liberator 100%, tapping and spending in between for tiny seconds. Then the late game multi liberator vs everything hard as fuck to break unless your miles ahead and play your ass off.
I just hope blizzard stick to there guns and buff zerg and not nerf terran so it doesn't make the game slower.
i just wish that ground to air and air to air was powerful enough to discourage the kind of compositions that ignore terrain. maps play a huge role in how enjoyable sc is for me and it's frustrating that there's so many powerful air to ground units. if it can fly, and thus give you scouting and mobility that you wouldn't otherwise get that's plenty of advantage. it doesn't need to have a powerful air to ground attack and neither does it need to be efficient against units that shoot up. it's going to have infinite efficiency against things that can't hit it, and thus will always find a place. so many units, not just air, suffer from this feeling of being a half-assed allrounder that it's no wonder anything with a defined role feels weaker by result.
On June 11 2016 04:12 Teoita wrote: The larva change is a really stupid idea. If you aren't sure a change is needed (and imo in this case it isn't), don't make a massive and potentially game breaking one...
On June 11 2016 04:02 Sogetsu wrote: Honestly, the Larvae increase is ABSURD, build a damn Macro Hatch, it is easy enough right now to inject and mass Larvae.
you have to keep in mind that macro hatcheries aren't free, in fact, you can't afford to make a macro hatch before taking your 4th in ZvT
They aren't free, but Zergs aren't losing because they lack unit production in the early game, so i don't see what 4 larvae per hatch does that a macro hatch doesn't, except making Zerg revolve entirely too much around hitting perfect injects which a lot of people dislike.
They haven't made a change yet dip shit, it says it right there. They are THINKING about changing larvae IF ZvT is that bad. God damn dude, quit being a knee jerk moron and read the fucking paragraph.
On June 11 2016 04:11 Psychobabas wrote: These people have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It's quite clear.
Yeah, no idea what they're doing, they've only crafted the best RTS game for the last 2+ decades. I'm sure you and your infinite wisdom could do much better. I swear to God, this community is so fucking stupid sometimes. ITS A DISCUSSION MORON, WE'RE DISCUSSING IT...simply state your opinion and (God forbid), some counter arguments. You see, that's how discourse works.
On June 11 2016 04:36 TriX_sc2 wrote: I think the general consensus is that korean zergs are just bad and eu zergs could win code s. In the european community, that is.
On June 17 2016 21:43 IntoTheheart wrote: Nice plugging, Dayvie.
LOL. Come to think of it, how likely would it be that DK or someone else from SC2 dev team would make an account on TL on a fake name? If they did, what would they write?
On June 17 2016 21:43 IntoTheheart wrote: Nice plugging, Dayvie.
LOL. Come to think of it, how likely would it be that DK or someone else from SC2 dev team would make an account on TL on a fake name? If they did, what would they write?
don't know where to stick this, but i think Blizzard reads these feedback posts so i'll stick it here.
nice to see Catz working as a consultant for Blizzard. I really like how Catz comes up with bizarre and unusual strats when a new expansion or WoL first comes out. he is the kind of open-minded, innovative thinker Blizzard can use helping them with SC2.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
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just my euro zerg cents
