On June 11 2016 04:25 Elentos wrote: Nobody makes disruptors in Korean PvZ but the Zergs still switched to ling/bane. Go figure.
Ok disruptors AND immortals.
Why would you build banelings against immortals. The banelings are there to beat adepts, and they do a pretty good job at it.
We were talking about the reasons zergs switched to ling/bate vs p. You are trying to say that's because of the adpets? Don't you think roaches would be a much more solid choice vs units that do a bonus damage to light units such as lings/banes? But when was the last time you saw a roach in that mu? Oh wait.
Roaches don't DPS down the adepts fast enough so you lose your entire worker line before they die, while banes are more vulnerable to adepts but also do a much better job killing them.
On June 11 2016 04:26 Lexender wrote: No info about the cyclone, how is it taking them more than a week to fix a bug?
Last community update they already said that they would fix it the next time the game was updated. They don't need to repeat themselves.
Yeah, thats kind of what I'm getting at, why does it take so long to fix this bug? isn't it simply changing the cooldown from 9 to 4?
I'm sure they've already fixed it. They won't schedule a patch for a single change though, so they're probably working on other fixes before we get a patch.
Oh ok, I remember Blizzard patching things like this without people realizing like back when they changed WM to do +damage to shields, BAM people didn't even knew the game was patched.
On June 11 2016 06:03 Liquid`Snute wrote: i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.
but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.
ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:
Look into: - tankivac properties - medivac movement speed (boost) - medivac unload speed - medivac healing speed - medivac hitpoints. unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well. Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz) edit: this would be too strong with queendrops vs protoss, so Anti-air only. If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.
one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.
Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.
Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.
Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.
Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is
when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.
In a standart no harrass zvp macro game in hots, zerg would always be ahead some workers and the difference would increase linearly. That was the nature of the zvp balance, have more eco, trade your thrash units... Now open up a same style macro zvp game in lotv; you will see that worker count are always equal till 50 workers. Then the drone count accelerates, however that extra workers always die to phoneix no matter what (since there is no counter-play to phoneix), worker count still goes equal till 66. Now protoss players tell that new chrono sucks, but how? Can someone explain me how protoss can always have equal workers as you no matter how greedy zerg you are? I think thats why a slight increase on larvae spawn time might be good. Eco system has grown but production got worse, there is something wrong here. I also have another little complain which is also relative: Whenever an inject cyle finishes, your queen will have 23 energy and if you want to time a perfect inject, you will have to waste that 2 seconds by spamming and it really annoys me. It would be really nice if they increase queen energy recovery by a tiny number (like %5?) so she would have exactly 25 energy when a cycle finishes, that would be a tiny buff on zerg production as well.
the post earlier saying people actually believe eu zergs could win code s made me laugh for 2 minutes straight. even with 20 gsl seasons a year and every eu zerg participating in all of them, none of them would ever make it even to the RO8. get real.
oh and on topic, just make it so that hatcheries spawn 3 larva and lair / hive spawn 4. thank me later.
Here we go whine whine whine about balance. That's all Terran does, they whine and get a triple buff as in mines, thors and hellbats, they constantly whine, they get liberators they whine etc etc etc they're the toughest race right now still whining, maybe zerg should whine for once.
A patch like that will stomp every foreign terran. TvZ is a problem only in Korea because only in Korea you have to face Maru,Cure and TY. Ofc zerg foreigners progamers are ok with that because it means easier money,but don't forget that viewers will be tired of PvZ one day.
On June 11 2016 10:02 NomaKasd wrote: Here we go whine whine whine about balance. That's all Terran does, they whine and get a triple buff as in mines, thors and hellbats, they constantly whine, they get liberators they whine etc etc etc they're the toughest race right now still whining, maybe zerg should whine for once.
Complains about Terrans whining, when in fact every race is whining since 6 years. You seem to imply only terrans whine and thats all they do. Meanwhile every other race works very hard and are better players. Get real srsly. Disrespecting a third of the playerbase seems acceptable nowadays on this forum, but honestly you sound like a jerk. Your comment gets funnier when one realises your signature contains IdrA, somebody known as a notorious whiner. (buhu imba imba world)
On June 11 2016 10:02 NomaKasd wrote: Here we go whine whine whine about balance. That's all Terran does, they whine and get a triple buff as in mines, thors and hellbats, they constantly whine, they get liberators they whine etc etc etc they're the toughest race right now still whining, maybe zerg should whine for once.
I forgot to laugh.
On June 11 2016 10:29 Tresher wrote: Hey there are tons of balance and design flaws and even technical problems with the game. So let´s tell people how awesome the new Warcraft Movie is.
I'm honestly just speechless. You have thousands of people who voted that Terran is the weakest race on the front of Team Liquid: 45% saying Protoss is most favored with 4.5k votes and Terran coming in (more than dead) last with 20%. Yet I see a post like this with, "it may surprise you...[with Zerg being underpowered vs the weakest race in the community]."
There are only two things happening here: 1) David Kim is the most inept person to ever lead game development. 2) There is some sort of collusion going on here. I'm leaning towards the latter.
We've seen corruption breach very high levels of play and I sometimes question "who is he talking to". This seems like a very select few players. Was Life one of these players? Or countless others accused of match fixing?
Blizzard needs to balance the game on their own. Feedback from several key resources is fine but to balance the game on a select few people saved on your smartphone is not true balance.
This is a case where making some (massive) changes is better than making no decision at all. ProLeague is based on sponsorship. This game is clearly having issues with its current state - streamers (mainly Terran) are leaving in droves. Wake up.
Larva is a global buff, but it seems like only ZvT is the problem. DK has always been favorable to more surgical changes that don't upset the meta. Even with strictly GSL/SSL as KeSPA claims to base their opinions on, PvZ is dead even. Sounds like a job for finding what's wrong with the specific unit interactions in ZvT, the midgame being the likely culprit, and I would suspect how well-rounded Liberators are at being the answer to all of Zerg options (esp Ling/Bane/Muta) until Hive. Whatever PvT collateral they can always +shields.
I'm almost convinced the feedback is coming from players like SoO. With their all-in defeatist play styles. DK needs to re-evaluated the players he looks for "feedback" when even Wolf calls the play "pathetic" (@ 6:20). I would encourage people to look at SoO replays because, as many TL members have mentioned, much of the feedback is thought to come from him.
Thank god that they noticed the bad win percentage that our fellow Zergs are having against Terrans these days. Zerg get punished very heavily early on due to the short production rate as Zerg cannot afford to make drones and units at the same time. Because Kespa players (Terran especially) are relentless with their Macro and Micro (Harasses) throughout the entirety of the game, Zerg got stomped badly with poor economy and low number of units to defend if the Zerg decides to go somewhere between MAcroing and defending harasses ! It's truly insightful that the developers notice this situation and taking into consideration to make few helpful changes to our fellow Zergs. I agree with the changes that the Pros and developers will make as they better understand the whole concept of the game and hopefully fix the win percentage rate to 50% again.
P.S : Mutas are no longer viable as Liberators will just A move into the flock and win every engagement.
Thank you Blizzard and many thanks to TeamLiquid for having this awesome discussion !
I think even increase the starting larva and max larva without injection from 3 to 4, or new hatchery starts with 2 larva is better than larva injection increase. 1 hatchery = 350 mineral, can produce all units. 2 barracks = 300 mineral + mining time, can produce only marines. 2 gateway = 300 mineral, can produce only ground units.
On the one hand, it's true that zerg somewhat struggles a little in korea at the moment. There's no denying that. Mainly because protosses started to figure out PvZ and stoped dying to full lurkers. Terrans also came up with answers to zerg's late game (win before late game, then proceed to mass liberators). However, GSL results are pretty convincing for zerg, which raises a question about these unreferenced sources : why are they more relevent than results? But whatever.
On the other hand, taking a look at the bigger picture, terran is struggling everywhere outside korea. In the protoss case, Blizz buffed the colossus saying it'd be a more reliable AoE dealer than the disruptors for lower level people. It was actually a very sensible thought process, that, I think, has positive consequences on diversity and enjoyablity for all skill levels. And if there's a problem with a handfull of terran dominating korean pro level while terran barely even appears in EU and NA pro scenes, proposing carefully thought changes that would limit pro KR terrans in their abuse and encourage lower level players (and NA/EU pro scenes, by extension) to play terran would be the way to go. The very fact that there's only one way to play terran in all MUs with 0 diversity in compositions makes it so that koreans are doing pretty well for themselves, and NA/EU terrans are having a very hard time. Looking into terran diversity, therefore, would be an exemple on how to nerf some stuff that the KR terrans are overabusing, while applying slight buffs that would allow other alternatives that require less of a skill cap.
However, in the opposite, simply buffing zerg's macro mechanics is a bronze leaguer solution. It's borderline "30 dmg zealot charge". I can't stress enough how stupid the situation of TvZ is : - korean terrans manage to kill zergs before T3, and therefore handle the matchup well - NA/EU terrans can't manage to do it, and have huge difficulties in the MU
Blindly buffing zerg's macro mech across the board will just make EU/NA terrans have even more difficulties, and if it manages to tilt the balance to the point where it's decently easy for KR zergs to hold until T3, we'll have another period of zerg dominance, even in korea. Which wouldn't be a problem if terran's late game was smartly and swiftly looked into, but we all know that's never gonna happen. Also, I won't even get into how it'll completly break ZvP which may be, I guess, the most balanced while diverse non mirror MU there is. Oh yeah, and to add insult to injury, let's promote the warcraft movie while we're at it. Smart move DK.
Oh let's just increase spawn larva number to 4, it's only an increase of one.
No, it's an increase from 3 to 4, which is 33%. Over the course of a game, how many extra larva do you get with this little change?
Not weighing in on the balance, but the idea of making a change so dramatic is absurd. I thought they said something about baby step changes a while ago?
Do Zerg players still build macro hatcheries? Is it because of macro and unit changes, like Roach can be mutated into a Ravager for example, the reason why Zergs don't build them anymore?
On June 11 2016 13:37 dyDrawer wrote: Oh let's just increase spawn larva number to 4, it's only an increase of one.
No, it's an increase from 3 to 4, which is 33%. Over the course of a game, how many extra larva do you get with this little change?
Not weighing in on the balance, but the idea of making a change so dramatic is absurd. I thought they said something about baby step changes a while ago?
Queen injects spawn 3 larvae in 29 seconds. For simplicity's sake I'm going to use 30 seconds as a beast case scenario. If Zerg has 3 to 4 Hatcheries in the mid game, that's an extra 6 to 8 units per minute.
EPT
