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Community Feedback Update - June 10 - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
254 CommentsPost a Reply
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Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
June 10 2016 20:38 GMT
#61
If they buff Larva, next WCS will not be 11P, 7T and 14Z, but 6P,4T, 22Z
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23580 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 20:43:57
June 10 2016 20:39 GMT
#62
On June 11 2016 05:37 megatroneo wrote:
reddit had a pretty interesting suggestion (credit Scusl)

Show nested quote +
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject


I like this, sounds really cool.

Edit: Actually I don't think this change makes a difference. It's not like people will build 3 hives because of this, a macro hatch would still be better than a second hive and gas is too valuable.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
DalaiiLameR
Profile Joined May 2016
42 Posts
June 10 2016 20:39 GMT
#63
its so funny, then the people here say, that blizz have no clue, what they do and that the larva change would break the game. ofcourse, the blizz employees arent pros and arent the best in sc2, but damn, they're talking to kespa pros, who rly understand the game.. and when they say, that this is a possibility, then its the truth. they arent only talking with zerg players btw. the feedback, that terran > zerg comes not only from zerg players, even terran players have to feel that way and why should they lie?

i personally have no clue about balance issues, because im only low masters. maybe some people here should also trust in the kespa pros. and to be honest, the latest changes were rly great.

no hate plz :D
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3308 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 20:44:22
June 10 2016 20:40 GMT
#64
On June 11 2016 05:37 megatroneo wrote:
reddit had a pretty interesting suggestion (credit Scusl)
Show nested quote +
If you don't want Zerg Larva to be op in the early game maybe go with this;
Hatchery: 3 Larva per inject
Lair: 4 Larva per inject
Hive: 5 Larva per Inject


Pretty much this, but I don't know if 5 for Hive is necessary.

Blizzard can fine tune this to be one of these scenarios:

1. Hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 4
2. Hatchery 3, Lair 3, Hive 4
3. Hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 4 plus slightly faster larva spawn rate
4. Hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 5 (a bit ridiculous)
5. Hatchery 3, Lair/Hive some upgrade to make it 4
(various combinations of above)
T P Z sagi
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
June 10 2016 20:49 GMT
#65
On June 11 2016 05:35 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:29 TheWinks wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:27 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote:
rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait


Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.

Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.

Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?


Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.

Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".

If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.

I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23580 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 20:54:03
June 10 2016 20:52 GMT
#66
On June 11 2016 05:49 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:35 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:29 TheWinks wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:27 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote:
rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait


Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.

Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.

Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?


Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.

Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".

If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.

I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.


Well blame Korean zergs then, although Korean Protoss players admitted that P is/was (not sure yet how the barrier nerf affects the game) OP, so Terrans might do the same. Korean Terrans obviously know if their zerg teammates are complaining about ZvT and it doesn't seem like they object or Blizzard would have received their feedback as well.

Blame anyone but Blizzard, they are just showing us what they get sent from Korea.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 20:56:11
June 10 2016 20:55 GMT
#67
On June 11 2016 05:52 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:49 TheWinks wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:35 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:29 TheWinks wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:27 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote:
rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait


Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.

Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.

Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?


Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.

Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".

If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.

I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.

Blame anyone but Blizzard, they are just showing us what they get sent from Korea.

No, the buck stops at Blizzard. They're the ones with the responsibility and the power here. If Kespa feedback is nonsensical, they should take a hardline stance against it.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23580 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:01:09
June 10 2016 21:00 GMT
#68
On June 11 2016 05:55 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:52 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:49 TheWinks wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:35 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:29 TheWinks wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:27 Musicus wrote:
On June 11 2016 05:15 Twine wrote:
rofl, terran > zerg according to blizzard ? I may not have followed the EU scene lately .. oh wait


Seriously, comments like this make me angry, it's not according to Blizzard, it's according to Korean pros/KeSPA.

Blizzard is not hating on Terran guys and they are not suggesting anything, they are just communicating with us. They are literally just quoting the Korean pros, so that we know how the feedback from Korea looks and therefore won't be surprised and yell "this is coming out of nowhere, Blizzard has no idea about the game" if they eventually test the changes KeSPA suggests.

Which Korean pros though? And what exactly are they saying? During the height of blink Rain claimed that terran was literally on the level of blord/infestor. Did his state as a Kespa pro make that idea any less laughable?


Didn't they explain the way they gather feedback from Korea before? I think KeSPA gathers the opinions of all their players and then delivers the most dominant opinions to Blizz.

Anyway it doesn't matter. 4 Larva sounds ridiculous to me, yes. But then please say "KeSPA/Korean pros have no idea what they are doing" or "rofl, Terran > Zerg according to Korea?".

If you have to complain, please blame the Koreans instead of blaming Blizzard. Blizzard is just showing us how the Korean feedback looks, they are not agreeing with them. But of course the feedback of the best players in the world does hold some weight.

I don't want to blame the Koreans on the whole though. I'd much rather criticize the black box and lack of direct output. For all we know the Korean terrans think this whole idea is completely ludicrous but the stuff making it out of the feedback is zerg leaning somehow.

Blame anyone but Blizzard, they are just showing us what they get sent from Korea.

No, the buck stops at Blizzard. They're the ones with the responsibility and the power here. If Kespa feedback is nonsensical, they should take a hardline stance against it.


It's not like they are patching the game just based on this feedback, they are very sceptical and want to get more feedback from all the korean pros, not just zergs. They are doing nothing with this feedback apart from informing us about it.

To explore this notion in greater details, we’ve pinged Kespa to get the stance of all the top players in KR to gauge the pro-stance as a whole. We have no actions planned yet, but we wanted to let you know so that we can all watch together to see if the situation actually is bad, and to discuss further moves together if they prove necessary.


Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Liquid`Snute
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Norway839 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 22:49:01
June 10 2016 21:03 GMT
#69
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.

but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.

ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:

Look into:
- tankivac properties
- medivac movement speed (boost)
- medivac unload speed
- medivac healing speed
- medivac hitpoints.
unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well.
Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz) edit: this would be too strong with queendrops vs protoss, so Anti-air only. If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.

one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.

Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.

Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.

Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.

Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is

when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.

On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote:
Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.

fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)


i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?

later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.

another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.

okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents
Team Liquid
Zulu23
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany132 Posts
June 10 2016 21:13 GMT
#70
Well, if the macro mechanic of zerg will then compeltely reverted to HotS times, with no inject que and the old mule and chrono i'm fine with 4 larvae...
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55594 Posts
June 10 2016 21:14 GMT
#71
On June 11 2016 06:03 Liquid`Snute wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.

but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.

ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:

Look into:
- tankivac properties
- medivac movement speed (boost)
- medivac unload speed
- medivac healing speed
- medivac hitpoints.
unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well.
Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.

one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.

Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.

Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.

Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.

Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is

when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.

On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote:
Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.

fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)


i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?

later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.

another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.

okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents

Out of interest, how do you play ZvT macro games at the moment?
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Liquid`Snute
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Norway839 Posts
June 10 2016 21:16 GMT
#72
On June 11 2016 06:14 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 06:03 Liquid`Snute wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.

but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.

ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:

Look into:
- tankivac properties
- medivac movement speed (boost)
- medivac unload speed
- medivac healing speed
- medivac hitpoints.
unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well.
Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.

one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.

Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.

Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.

Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.

Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is

when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.

On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote:
Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.

fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)


i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?

later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.

another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.

okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents

Out of interest, how do you play ZvT macro games at the moment?

roach ravager infestor for the most part, occasionally brood lords or ultralisk. muta ling bane can also work on very large maps
Team Liquid
Sogetsu
Profile Joined July 2011
514 Posts
June 10 2016 21:19 GMT
#73
Snute, don't think low of yourself. We all know you are a great player and world class lvl, not because once a while you won something against KeSPA pros, but because your consistent results and understanding of the game.

I agree with your post, and I hope Blizz listen people like you more than koreans asking for free larva buff instead using a macro hatch.
Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55594 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:22:57
June 10 2016 21:21 GMT
#74
On June 11 2016 06:16 Liquid`Snute wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 06:14 Elentos wrote:
On June 11 2016 06:03 Liquid`Snute wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
i think the zvt shown in kr matches so far hasn't been that great, still a lot of inferior choices when it comes to unit compositions and quite a bit of bad zerg play overall, give it more time i'd say. i'm one of the leading zvt players in europe and i see a ton of mistakes in kr zvt matches but at the same time i know that most people reading this won't take my feedback too seriously since i haven't beaten enough kespa players at international events or shown enough dominance in the zvt matchup for now.

but, i can come up with a bunch of suggestions and alternatives that probably are superior to the larva change/buffing the entire zerg standard macro development hard.

ok so: larva buff suggestions hints at the balance issue from kr zergs being an early game complaint. Macro hatches can be afforded pretty easily later on to be honest, so i'll make early game suggestions:

Look into:
- tankivac properties
- medivac movement speed (boost)
- medivac unload speed
- medivac healing speed
- medivac hitpoints.
unfortunately a lot of these changes would affect PvT and TvT as well.
Queen anti air vs armored buff could also be a consideration, this will affect Liberator/MSC/Voidray/Medivac/Overlord/Warp Prism, so this might not be a bad change for early game defense. If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag. Would also buff overlords vs voidrays which is a welcome change i think, sry protoss, personally i think they die way too fast to voidray buttonpress atm.

one could also add 1-3 seconds on reaper build time, reduce reaper grenade knockback duration/distance and reduce damage slightly. or nerf reaper damage by 1, i prefer nerfing the grenade though. tweaking queen build time is another opportunity but it's a really dangerous thing to start tweaking and not very pleasant i think.

Ok, next would be liberator AtG, siege/unsiege speed, radius, range, rate of fire, etc. but i don't think the liberator is that much of an issue right now. if queens do more damage vs armored air, it would be a bit easier to defend against at the very least.

Another nerf would be to change the widow mine splash radius slightly (gradual damage radius or just a 10-20% splash size nerf) to preserve more lings/banelings/drones upon impact, for the zergs that for whatever reason play without ravagers still.

Hokay i think that anything of this would be more than enough to fix any kind of imbalance kr zergs might be experiencing.

Larva from 3 to 4 shouldn't be a thing. it goes against all kinds of common sense at this point. you don't want to buff the standard macro development in every single match-up now, of all times. protoss are already getting nervous and queens are garbage enough in zvz as it is

when i first heard this line from kr zergs i thought it was the newest balance meme on the block, didn't think it was serious tbh. but like i mentioned earlier, maybe they know what they're talking about and i'm just an european zerg, so yeah. personally i think the match-up is quite balanced, but certain map features can become disadvantageous for zerg. mostly revolving around 3rax reaper and tankivac strength - so map pool is quite important. on the topic of maps: if you revert to 4 larva it's pretty obvious that maps where you can protect your 3rd well with gasless (dusk towers) will just go completely out of control in favor of zerg.

On June 11 2016 05:36 Isarios wrote:
Return to us the infestor! Powerful killing fungals. Not tickling toe rot.

fungal bile is strong as it is and doesn't need any tweaks, if it's removed from the matchup or if fungal projectile speed/range is nerfed even further i can agree that it will be imbalanced in favor of terran but fungal atm is not underpowered in zvt, only zvp (they need to make it trigger immortal autoshields and maybe add a very minor damage increase vs armored)


i just cannot imagine that larva count is the issue in zvt, most players are good at spending their money and aren't exactly at larva shortage ... asking for better early game economy development is basically saying 'my race currently sucks too hard at least until 200/200'... but economy in lotv, larva, was limited for very good reasons since the other races had their macro mechanics nerfed too. right?

later on in the game larva does not matter because zergs know how to inject well enough or build a macro hatch. and zvt if it were to be imbalanced is definitely not about saving 300 minerals, it's most likely about medivac strength if i were to make a guess, or about the strength of any of the units i mentioned in my above list.

another change i would like to mention is to reduce the recede rate of creep ever so slightly if 2CC TANK or 3CC MMMM allins are identified as a major issue.

okay that should be about it i think just my euro zerg cents

Out of interest, how do you play ZvT macro games at the moment?

roach ravager infestor for the most part, occasionally brood lords or ultralisk. muta ling bane can also work on very large maps

I wish we could see you play against some good Korean Terrans more often this year. I mean you played like two best of 1s in Shanghai against ByuN and TY but those were on weird maps.

I think I agree with you though. Whenever I see Zerg players lose, be it in Korea or EU or wherever, I never feel like it's because they were running out of larva.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Zulu23
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany132 Posts
June 10 2016 21:25 GMT
#75
have you seen GSL Code A today?
Dark vs. Innovation. No clue why one would say that Z has no chance vs. T, today!

Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55594 Posts
June 10 2016 21:29 GMT
#76
On June 11 2016 06:25 Zulu23 wrote:
have you seen GSL Code A today?
Dark vs. Innovation. No clue why one would say that Z has no chance vs. T, today!


The best Zerg in Korea barely won against a Terran whose form we can't gauge. Not really a statement for or against either side.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28536 Posts
June 10 2016 21:30 GMT
#77
On June 11 2016 06:25 Zulu23 wrote:
have you seen GSL Code A today?
Dark vs. Innovation. No clue why one would say that Z has no chance vs. T, today!


Dark is the Zerg Maru, that's why

I Protoss winner, could it be?
Zulu23
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany132 Posts
June 10 2016 21:39 GMT
#78
I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today.
Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance.
Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too.
imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20345 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:59:10
June 10 2016 21:41 GMT
#79
If you wanna go real crazy here, you can buff queen damage vs armored across the board. To help vs tanks, stalkers, immortals, marauders, even early roaches and nydus worm (zvz). If one doesn't want Overlords to be affected by this change, just remove overlord's armored tag.


That's pretty horrifying for PvZ. Early queen drop is one of the more powerful all-ins and buffing queen damage against stalkers and all buildings (overcharged pylons etc) while also making overlords take very little damage from the only available anti-air unit at the same time would be bad, i think

That would also affect the midgame with overlords dropping units as there is a large reliance on stalkers (which do low damage vs light, moderate damage vs armored) for anti-air

Do we also really want to turn queens into the zerg-MSC? The fallout from the WOL queen range buff was one of the worst times in the expansion IMO and queens already have quite a bit of power.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Scarlett`
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)2446 Posts
June 10 2016 21:43 GMT
#80
On June 11 2016 06:39 Zulu23 wrote:
I mean NO chance is a very drastic statment, right? especially today.
Innovation may not at his best form, it may also that the best macro terrans skill set may fit not the late game tvz balance.
Maru and TY are very different in play style, they mix dirty stuff in that is definitely not overpowered, too.
imho zerg need to play often more agressive early game.

Zerg agression is quite weak in lotv compared to hots/wol early game as terrans now open mostly 2 base builds (roach bane etc in hots was targeted to beat 3cc openings for the most part) and tank+medivac can hold almost anything by itself. Most attacks you can do are just counterattacks timed to hit when the terran leaves their base with a drop or ling floods hoping they dont have a wall
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