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On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play.
My best race is zerg and worst is probably terran but I tested a mass thor strat in TvZ last night out of curiosity / for fun. It went just like you said, poor guy didn't know what to do with his mutalisks and died to a simple thor+hellbat push. The opponent was platinum.
For those complaining the single target AA attack is too weak, please keep in mind that we don't want "perfect" compositions with no weaknesses. It has to be weak against something otherwise we'll have mech deathballs.
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On May 25 2016 21:36 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 21:08 Charoisaur wrote:On May 25 2016 20:58 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. What about mass broodlord situation ? Does mass air still involved ? I could beat armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors and a handful of vikings so I don't think you're forced to mass air anymore. The important thing vs broodlords is to have a good number of BF hellbats in your army to kill the broodlings fast. Good. Not sure why avilo dies to 5-6 broodlords in stream and said new thor doesn't work tho.
IMO Avilo plays way, way to passive and allows the Zerg to do whatever he wants. 5-6BLs supported by 100Vipers/Infestors and spores are not easy to engage. He is a good example in defending IMO, but Goody is much better in overall understanding of mech, timings and fights. Having the skill to know when to end the game is not something Avilo shines in.
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For those complaining the single target AA attack is too weak, please keep in mind that we don't want "perfect" compositions with no weaknesses. It has to be weak against something otherwise we'll have mech deathballs.
Except thors are the ONLY factory anti air unit that is any good. If thors have an attack that is too weak, mech doesn't have good factory anti air, and isn't playable. Mech isn't weak against something if the attack is too bad, its just weak.
As for the mech deathballs, what's wrong with them? Every other race gets to have powerful deathballs, why not terran?
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What I found so far is that Thors beat both Tempest and BroodLords for cost but not for supply. So Thors work good against those units provided that you push in time and not let the Protos/Zerg build their perfect deathball.
Carriers are about even with Thors but since you can get out Thors much faster then Carriers (at least if you play mech), Carriers are not a problem if you spot the transition in time.
BCS still beat Thors easily due to yamoto, but Vikings are already good enough against BCs so that is not really a problem.
Also I have been able to go up to 7 factories late game due to Thors being able to counter air, instead of having to throw away my factories and invest everything into starports and air units. This in itself is a huge benefit for mech.
I am not saying that mech will work at GSL level. But so far mech seems to be in a much better spot than it was before the patch. So good job Blizzard!
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On May 26 2016 01:13 MockHamill wrote:
What I found so far is that Thors beat both Tempest and BroodLords for cost but not for supply. So Thors work good against those units provided that you push in time and not let the Protos/Zerg build their perfect deathball.
Carriers are about even with Thors but since you can get out Thors much faster then Carriers (at least if you play mech), Carriers are no problem if you spot the transition in time.
BCS still beat Thors easily due to yamoto, but Vikings are already good enough against BCs so that is not really a problem.
I am not saying that mech will work at GSL level. But so far mech seems to be in a much better spot than it was before the patch. So good job Blizzard!
Honestly I don't think thors should be a counter to carriers/battlecruisers/brood lords. I was experimenting with them as a terran answer to the ultralisk madness in LOTV. Ghosts and cyclones are easily ruined by fungals but thors don't have that weakness, they should probably be more worried about neural parasite. At least neural is easier to play around.
I agree thors probably aren't strong enough to be the standard build at high levels. But I feel like they could be viable as a curveball in like a Bo5/Bo7 format.
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Interesting changes. I'd like to see if thor drops become a common thing. 50 damage to Vikings sounds pretty deadly from the defenders perspective. Mech ground viable?! :O
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On May 26 2016 01:37 BaronVonOwn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 01:13 MockHamill wrote:
What I found so far is that Thors beat both Tempest and BroodLords for cost but not for supply. So Thors work good against those units provided that you push in time and not let the Protos/Zerg build their perfect deathball.
Carriers are about even with Thors but since you can get out Thors much faster then Carriers (at least if you play mech), Carriers are no problem if you spot the transition in time.
BCS still beat Thors easily due to yamoto, but Vikings are already good enough against BCs so that is not really a problem.
I am not saying that mech will work at GSL level. But so far mech seems to be in a much better spot than it was before the patch. So good job Blizzard!
Honestly I don't think thors should be a counter to carriers/battlecruisers/brood lords. I was experimenting with them as a terran answer to the ultralisk madness in LOTV. Ghosts and cyclones are easily ruined by fungals but thors don't have that weakness, they should probably be more worried about neural parasite. At least neural is easier to play around. I agree thors probably aren't strong enough to be the standard build at high levels. But I feel like they could be viable as a curveball in like a Bo5/Bo7 format.
I don't think they necessarily have to be the "counter" to capital ships in order for mech to be a solid option. They just have to make sure that you don't get completely and utterly demolished when the opponent surprises you with them. Sure, if your opponent is going to some extreme, like mass tempests, you still want to go vikings. But if they just add some of those ships in the mix, thor might be good enough to allow you to keep doing your factory build. Or they can help you buy time to making vikings without you simply automatically losing for choosing the wrong tech.
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Just had the honor to experience mass Thors with a few Liberators.
They cannot be fucking serious.
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On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play.
How have you been going mech in TvT? Any builds you could point me to? I'd love to play mech in TvT but I don't think I have it quite figured out.
Thanks!
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On May 26 2016 02:05 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. How have you been going mech in TvT? Any builds you could point me to? I'd love to play mech in TvT but I don't think I have it quite figured out. Thanks!
check out GuMiho vs Journey. turns out hellbats are still good
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On May 26 2016 00:53 SwiftCrane wrote:Show nested quote +
For those complaining the single target AA attack is too weak, please keep in mind that we don't want "perfect" compositions with no weaknesses. It has to be weak against something otherwise we'll have mech deathballs.
Except thors are the ONLY factory anti air unit that is any good. If thors have an attack that is too weak, mech doesn't have good factory anti air, and isn't playable. Mech isn't weak against something if the attack is too bad, its just weak. As for the mech deathballs, what's wrong with them? Every other race gets to have powerful deathballs, why not terran?
Skytoss deathballs are OP bullshit and Zerg sky deathballs are hilariously easy to scout for, if you see a bunch of low tech units with Greater Spire being taken early along with a super early 4th (without the gas from 4th there is no aerial deathball on the way I promise you that) and Terran has a thousand and one ways to end the game if they scout that.
Stop crying, for god's sake mech just got a buff and people are still crying, they want mech to be this unbeatable deathball with zero weaknesses besides Vipers, go play Protoss and play Skytoss every game if thats what you want, mech is completely viable all the way up to GM league, just because Maru isn't going to win a GSL with it doesn't mean rank 20 Master league Joe Shmo can't easily crush face with well executed mech -___-
Thors are strong right now, Thor pushes definitely gonna make a comeback.
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The new thor anti-air is exactly the same as hots against non-armored air when it was completely useless. Against armored air it's marginally better. You guys dying to Thors, especially in the midgame where nothing has changed, just aren't used to fighting them. You'll remember/learn and everything will go back to normal.
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On May 26 2016 02:05 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. How have you been going mech in TvT? Any builds you could point me to? I'd love to play mech in TvT but I don't think I have it quite figured out. Thanks!
Mech in TvT doesn't really work once you get into masters, but it can work on dusk towers (or at least that's the only map i can manage to make it work)
You can go for :
- supply
- gaz
- rax => 1 marine
- facto
- CC + 2nd gaz
- reaper/hellion
- SP
From there you stay on 2 gasses and land your third CC asap, and you have a build that counter any kind of 3r reaper shenanigans, 1/1/1 or whatever BS you can face in TvT. The only danger is to get out macroed, which you can easily scout with reaper hellion. When you land the 3rd CC, then take the 3rd and 4rth gaz and land 3 more factories. Also, don't forget to land the Ebay to turret ring.
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On May 26 2016 00:53 SwiftCrane wrote:Show nested quote +
For those complaining the single target AA attack is too weak, please keep in mind that we don't want "perfect" compositions with no weaknesses. It has to be weak against something otherwise we'll have mech deathballs.
Except thors are the ONLY factory anti air unit that is any good. If thors have an attack that is too weak, mech doesn't have good factory anti air, and isn't playable. Mech isn't weak against something if the attack is too bad, its just weak. As for the mech deathballs, what's wrong with them? Every other race gets to have powerful deathballs, why not terran?
On May 26 2016 01:13 MockHamill wrote:
What I found so far is that Thors beat both Tempest and BroodLords for cost but not for supply. So Thors work good against those units provided that you push in time and not let the Protos/Zerg build their perfect deathball.
Carriers are about even with Thors but since you can get out Thors much faster then Carriers (at least if you play mech), Carriers are not a problem if you spot the transition in time.
BCS still beat Thors easily due to yamoto, but Vikings are already good enough against BCs so that is not really a problem.
Also I have been able to go up to 7 factories late game due to Thors being able to counter air, instead of having to throw away my factories and invest everything into starports and air units. This in itself is a huge benefit for mech.
I am not saying that mech will work at GSL level. But so far mech seems to be in a much better spot than it was before the patch. So good job Blizzard!
i'm with Skywalker on this one.
On May 25 2016 23:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 21:36 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 21:08 Charoisaur wrote:On May 25 2016 20:58 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. What about mass broodlord situation ? Does mass air still involved ? I could beat armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors and a handful of vikings so I don't think you're forced to mass air anymore. The important thing vs broodlords is to have a good number of BF hellbats in your army to kill the broodlings fast. Good. Not sure why avilo dies to 5-6 broodlords in stream and said new thor doesn't work tho. IMO Avilo plays way, way to passive and allows the Zerg to do whatever he wants. 5-6BLs supported by 100Vipers/Infestors and spores are not easy to engage. He is a good example in defending IMO, but Goody is much better in overall understanding of mech, timings and fights. Having the skill to know when to end the game is not something Avilo shines in.
Goody is Avilo's daddy. I've never seen Avilo beat Goody.
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Russian Federation15 Posts
Overall it's a very positive update. I pretty much like where Blizzards are going with it.
Thor: can't really tell how it will be played. Still think that we need range up to be able to deal with Broodlords and Tempests.
Cyclone: maybe it will be played in TvP and that's a very positive thing. Early TvP looks stupid for Terran. Try not to die just to get to mid-late game where you get killed by mass Immortals(not anymore) and Tempests with storm. Still think that Cyclone needs more health.
Liberator: decent nerf. won't change meta but will help in TvZ in late stages of game.
Immortal: YES! FINALLY! That thing was OP in both TvP and TvZ. And it's the main reason why Zest have >90% winrate in TvP.
Colossus: maybe $o$'s build will work now?))
Swarm Host: shitty buff for shitty unit... Maybe someday it will become a harrasment tool. But not now I guess.
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On May 25 2016 23:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 21:36 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 21:08 Charoisaur wrote:On May 25 2016 20:58 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. What about mass broodlord situation ? Does mass air still involved ? I could beat armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors and a handful of vikings so I don't think you're forced to mass air anymore. The important thing vs broodlords is to have a good number of BF hellbats in your army to kill the broodlings fast. Good. Not sure why avilo dies to 5-6 broodlords in stream and said new thor doesn't work tho. IMO Avilo plays way, way to passive and allows the Zerg to do whatever he wants. 5-6BLs supported by 100Vipers/Infestors and spores are not easy to engage. He is a good example in defending IMO, but Goody is much better in overall understanding of mech, timings and fights. Having the skill to know when to end the game is not something Avilo shines in.
Or because yesterday i was testing late game max situations and the thors are garbage in those situations. Same with cyclones. If the Z/P knows how to turtle themselves into mass air still and late game comps thors are still useless.
All of the idiotic "timings" that people keep proposing here people always propose after a patch comes out and they play 3 games with the changes.
I've played many, many games of testing before and after the changes and know how games will play out and the changes in this patch do absolutely nothing to help vs mass tempest, or mass air in general.
It's not my fault people are short sighted and think after winning 3 games the patch magically solved the problem when ive played countless more games than they have and know the end game better.
If P/Z get to a max situation and you're massing thors/hellbats, you will die regardless of the thor high impact mode. Wait 1-2 weeks after people finally have played the same amount of sample games that i have.
People need to stop saying idiotic shit about how i play, i have done way more testing than anyone in this thread already over the past months.
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On May 26 2016 02:25 TheWinks wrote:
The new thor anti-air is exactly the same as hots against non-armored air when it was completely useless. Against armored air it's marginally better. You guys dying to Thors, especially in the midgame where nothing has changed, just aren't used to fighting them. You'll remember/learn and everything will go back to normal.
Yep. Also not to mention that some people here keep saying they are winning with "timings" that people always die to a few games after a new patch, and then when opponents realize "oh i just turtle to max with P/Z and his thors are garbage" it's proven that the new thor is once again the same garbage it was before =/
But OK some people have patch hysteria and want to believe they can still beat 20+ tempest and high templar with these thors. GL guys.
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On May 26 2016 03:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 23:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 25 2016 21:36 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 21:08 Charoisaur wrote:On May 25 2016 20:58 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. What about mass broodlord situation ? Does mass air still involved ? I could beat armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors and a handful of vikings so I don't think you're forced to mass air anymore. The important thing vs broodlords is to have a good number of BF hellbats in your army to kill the broodlings fast. Good. Not sure why avilo dies to 5-6 broodlords in stream and said new thor doesn't work tho. IMO Avilo plays way, way to passive and allows the Zerg to do whatever he wants. 5-6BLs supported by 100Vipers/Infestors and spores are not easy to engage. He is a good example in defending IMO, but Goody is much better in overall understanding of mech, timings and fights. Having the skill to know when to end the game is not something Avilo shines in. Or because yesterday i was testing late game max situations and the thors are garbage in those situations. Same with cyclones. If the Z/P knows how to turtle themselves into mass air still and late game comps thors are still useless. All of the idiotic "timings" that people keep proposing here people always propose after a patch comes out and they play 3 games with the changes. I've played many, many games of testing before and after the changes and know how games will play out and the changes in this patch do absolutely nothing to help vs mass tempest, or mass air in general. It's not my fault people are short sighted and think after winning 3 games the patch magically solved the problem when ive played countless more games than they have and know the end game better. If P/Z get to a max situation and you're massing thors/hellbats, you will die regardless of the thor high impact mode. Wait 1-2 weeks after people finally have played the same amount of sample games that i have. People need to stop saying idiotic shit about how i play, i have done way more testing than anyone in this thread already over the past months.
so you're not happy with the patch, then ?
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No matter what Blizzard do, you will never be happy and allways complain anyway avilo, the game cannot be balanced around you biased opinion.
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After playing around it for few hours and unit testing I came to the conclusion!
Tvz: New Thor doesn't prioritize air like it used to so you can stutter step it forward without wasting a volley on 1 broodlord or spread damage across bl (inefficient). It also prioritizes brooding over broodlord in range
Also, new Thor is good against low bl count, fairly well vs medium- larger number bls. The key is hitting +2 upgrade so thors 4 hit bl instead of 5 hit-especially important since you waste few volleys because thors don't hit air unit unless you command and it to
Also, due to ground prioritization on single target mode (an oversight I assume) it makes going against vipers bit clunky as it won prevent vipers entirely from binding cloud.
Corruptor take 4 shots to kill so it doesn't make large difference really. About same impact as splash option so nothing really notable here.
Tvt is big difference when you are mech vs mech or sky bio vs mech as having few thors prevents dying from few liberators but air control is still key with siege tanks and all. Thors do better vs Bcs but you should never make it as an answer. Viking and few raven is flat out far superior
Tvp nothing much changed. Carrier and tempest can out damage/tank/out maneuver thors which is expected
Tl;Dr: better vs broodlord and liberators. Interactions largely unchanged in other areas
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EPT
