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So far I like the patch, cyclone isn't great still but the lower cost allows them to be used for harassment without completely stunting your build.
Really like the Thor changes. They aren't the end all to capital ship fleets on their own but they shouldn't be. At least now they can hold their own against most air units instead of instantly getting annihilated (packs of void rays come to mind). Also keep in mind that at +3 upgrade they literally do 4-5x dps using the new cannon compared to the missiles to large, heavily armoured targets (12 dmg compared to 59 dmg to a battlecruiser with six armor). This makes a big difference.
Once again I feel like mech is a viable build choice. (From a casual gamers perspective)
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On May 26 2016 03:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 23:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 25 2016 21:36 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 21:08 Charoisaur wrote:On May 25 2016 20:58 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. What about mass broodlord situation ? Does mass air still involved ? I could beat armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors and a handful of vikings so I don't think you're forced to mass air anymore. The important thing vs broodlords is to have a good number of BF hellbats in your army to kill the broodlings fast. Good. Not sure why avilo dies to 5-6 broodlords in stream and said new thor doesn't work tho. IMO Avilo plays way, way to passive and allows the Zerg to do whatever he wants. 5-6BLs supported by 100Vipers/Infestors and spores are not easy to engage. He is a good example in defending IMO, but Goody is much better in overall understanding of mech, timings and fights. Having the skill to know when to end the game is not something Avilo shines in. Or because yesterday i was testing late game max situations and the thors are garbage in those situations. Same with cyclones. If the Z/P knows how to turtle themselves into mass air still and late game comps thors are still useless. All of the idiotic "timings" that people keep proposing here people always propose after a patch comes out and they play 3 games with the changes. I've played many, many games of testing before and after the changes and know how games will play out and the changes in this patch do absolutely nothing to help vs mass tempest, or mass air in general. It's not my fault people are short sighted and think after winning 3 games the patch magically solved the problem when ive played countless more games than they have and know the end game better. If P/Z get to a max situation and you're massing thors/hellbats, you will die regardless of the thor high impact mode. Wait 1-2 weeks after people finally have played the same amount of sample games that i have. People need to stop saying idiotic shit about how i play, i have done way more testing than anyone in this thread already over the past months.
Sigh, Avilo you won't be satisfied until cancer turtle mech has zero exploitable weaknesses. This game shouldn't be balanced around your nonsensical and biased opinions.
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On May 26 2016 04:39 Tanked1 wrote:
Once again I feel like mech is a viable build choice. (From a casual gamers perspective)
I don't understand how people are saying this. Mech was very liberator dependent in the late game TvZ and the thor AA attack is not making up for that nerf in that department and in the midgame nothing has changed. Again, the Thor is not any stronger in the midgame. How is mech suddenly viable despite nothing changing?
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Mech has always been viable till high GM, even LoTV. In HotS Mech was viable even at pro korean level. It was still rather boring/excrutiatingly painful with total lack of interplay to watch for the most part.
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If blizz finally made the cyclone the mech footman it's supposed to be (removing the lock on), mech with hellion/cyclone + tank support would be possible. Being able to go straight into skyterran is cancer, and mass tank mech often ends up into turtly BS because moving out onto the map is usually suicide.
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I wouldn't expect new thor to be any better than it was other than vs broodlords (due to its low hp masking thors poor dps/high burst attack)
Thor does whopping 3.78 more dps than a viking (23.36 dps vs 19.6 dps of viking) at 6 supply vs vikings 2
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On May 26 2016 03:47 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 02:25 TheWinks wrote:
The new thor anti-air is exactly the same as hots against non-armored air when it was completely useless. Against armored air it's marginally better. You guys dying to Thors, especially in the midgame where nothing has changed, just aren't used to fighting them. You'll remember/learn and everything will go back to normal. Yep. Also not to mention that some people here keep saying they are winning with "timings" that people always die to a few games after a new patch, and then when opponents realize "oh i just turtle to max with P/Z and his thors are garbage" it's proven that the new thor is once again the same garbage it was before =/ But OK some people have patch hysteria and want to believe they can still beat 20+ tempest and high templar with these thors. GL guys.
Proven by WHO (you do not count btw) ? The Patch is only out for 2 days. This also makes your 1-2 weeks argument invalid. Like you have been playing more games in 2 days than others would have in 1-2 weeks... test map doesn´t count.
Also like others said: You will NEVER be satisfied. What Sapphire Lux said is true. You just sit in your base. ALWAYS. There´s no such thing as "testing end game". You always do this. And then complain when Zerg or Protoss does this.
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On May 26 2016 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
I wouldn't expect new thor to be any better than it was other than vs broodlords (due to its low hp masking thors poor dps/high burst attack)
Thor does whopping 3.78 more dps than a viking (23.36 dps vs 19.6 dps of viking) at 6 supply vs vikings 2
That would be the dream but they would really need to start addresing tanks for that to happen. Right now I think its stronger to simply get thors and libs simply because lib AtG is still much better than the tank is vs ground.
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Swarmhost buff seems excessive
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On May 26 2016 03:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 23:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 25 2016 21:36 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 21:08 Charoisaur wrote:On May 25 2016 20:58 seemsgood wrote:On May 25 2016 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't know if my opponents today just sucked but after heavily testing the new thor I think mech might be viable now at least in tvz and tvt. the other player can't just tech straight to air anymore without dying to a thor timing and even in maxed out battles thors are very strong. You still need viking support but air units don't completely invalidate your ground army anymore like before the patch.
my only problem is that mech seems to be more mass thor + liberators now than siege tank based play. What about mass broodlord situation ? Does mass air still involved ? I could beat armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors and a handful of vikings so I don't think you're forced to mass air anymore. The important thing vs broodlords is to have a good number of BF hellbats in your army to kill the broodlings fast. Good. Not sure why avilo dies to 5-6 broodlords in stream and said new thor doesn't work tho. IMO Avilo plays way, way to passive and allows the Zerg to do whatever he wants. 5-6BLs supported by 100Vipers/Infestors and spores are not easy to engage. He is a good example in defending IMO, but Goody is much better in overall understanding of mech, timings and fights. Having the skill to know when to end the game is not something Avilo shines in. Or because yesterday i was testing late game max situations and the thors are garbage in those situations. Same with cyclones. If the Z/P knows how to turtle themselves into mass air still and late game comps thors are still useless. All of the idiotic "timings" that people keep proposing here people always propose after a patch comes out and they play 3 games with the changes. I've played many, many games of testing before and after the changes and know how games will play out and the changes in this patch do absolutely nothing to help vs mass tempest, or mass air in general. It's not my fault people are short sighted and think after winning 3 games the patch magically solved the problem when ive played countless more games than they have and know the end game better. If P/Z get to a max situation and you're massing thors/hellbats, you will die regardless of the thor high impact mode. Wait 1-2 weeks after people finally have played the same amount of sample games that i have. People need to stop saying idiotic shit about how i play, i have done way more testing than anyone in this thread already over the past months.
I have beaten armies with 10-15 broodlords with mainly thors so it's pretty safe to say thors aren't completely useless against air. Maybe it won't work if zerg learns to play against it by adding more vipers/infestors/static defense/whatever but the patch makes a huge difference for sure.
I can make it work at least at high master level which was unthinkable before the patch so I'm pretty happy with it.
Vs tempests it's of course still useless but well, every unit in the game is pretty useless vs mass tempests.
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I think the the problem with Thors is not with unit stats but with other parts of the game.
In a straight up battle where both sides have max uppgrades:
1 Thor beats 1 Tempest with with 155 hp left.
1 Thor beat 1 BroodLord with 201 hp left
1 Thor beat 1 Carrier with 16 hp left.
So Thors by themselves do their job in a stragiht up battle against air.
In TvZ the problem is more that BroodLord can kite Thors due to the range advantage and that Vipers still hard-counter mech. It is also hard to kill the Vipers before blinding cloud goes off.
In TvP the problem is the Protoss economy. Mech can beat Protoss grround units in a straight up battle. Thors can hold their ground against Protoss air. The problem is that the Protoss army will always have a higher army value due to Protoss being able to expand earlier and not having to invest so many resources in expansive factories.
Basically Protoss will always have a larger army with better upgrades and this is the reason TvP mech is not viable, not the units themselves. The solution to this to lower the cost of factories and armouries so that mech can invest more of the resources into units instead of production.
This would also be a partial solution to mech having problems with re-maxing compared to bio Terran, Zerg and Protoss.
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Making Cyclone and Swarmhost cheaper, but increasing the Cyclone's supply cost makes sense to me. SH with 4 supply would render him crazily useless.
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The thor is just the HOTS thor, it is not suddenly amazing and OP. And dont forget, the broodlord range got buffed with LOTV.
Yes Thors are strong, but that should be the case, high tier unit and its a lot of supply and very very expensive (300/200)
Tempests are still only 4 supply, same as a cyclone, that doesnt seem to be right.
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So the Liberator buff makes an extremely negligible difference until the late game if the Terran is sitting there massing Liberators, they still require excellent spread and heavy Viper support to be dealt with soundly, but Air Carapace upgrades early instead of attack seems promising.
My real beef right now is that Cyclones (Useless for the most part, maybe not in TvP?) has the same supply cost as the Tempest (Maximum deathball unit, serves no purpose other then to play turtle mode and move out when you have 15 of them with a Mothership with Templars/Carriers), that really just doesn't strike me as right, Tempest aerial armies are pretty silly to deal with and they encourage a massively passive game.
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Let's wait a few months until the game starts actually paying you for building SHs
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I noticed a bug on king sejong station where units can walk on the edge of the ice near your third and you can also build buildings on it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rotJtbM.jpg)
the depot on the screenshot is impossible to attack with a + click but I can still select it so maybe you can attack it by rightclicking when you're the opposing player.
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On May 27 2016 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:I noticed a bug on king sejong station where units can walk on the edge of the ice near your third and you can also build buildings on it. the depot on the screenshot is impossible to attack with a + click but I can still select it so maybe you can attack it by rightclicking when you're the opposing player.
I'd really like to know what is the story leading up to this image. Your base is weirdly damaged, you have an awful lot of minerals but almost no gas and at least a quarter of your army is in Ghosts.
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On May 27 2016 03:06 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2016 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:I noticed a bug on king sejong station where units can walk on the edge of the ice near your third and you can also build buildings on it. the depot on the screenshot is impossible to attack with a + click but I can still select it so maybe you can attack it by rightclicking when you're the opposing player. I'd really like to know what is the story leading up to this image. Your base is weirdly damaged, you have an awful lot of minerals but almost no gas and at least a quarter of your army is in Ghosts.
the game was already over I just messed around.
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On May 27 2016 03:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2016 03:06 opisska wrote:On May 27 2016 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:I noticed a bug on king sejong station where units can walk on the edge of the ice near your third and you can also build buildings on it. the depot on the screenshot is impossible to attack with a + click but I can still select it so maybe you can attack it by rightclicking when you're the opposing player. I'd really like to know what is the story leading up to this image. Your base is weirdly damaged, you have an awful lot of minerals but almost no gas and at least a quarter of your army is in Ghosts. the game was already over I just messed around.
The ghosts, were they able to fire and get hit by units on that spot?
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On May 27 2016 03:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2016 03:20 Charoisaur wrote:On May 27 2016 03:06 opisska wrote:On May 27 2016 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:I noticed a bug on king sejong station where units can walk on the edge of the ice near your third and you can also build buildings on it. the depot on the screenshot is impossible to attack with a + click but I can still select it so maybe you can attack it by rightclicking when you're the opposing player. I'd really like to know what is the story leading up to this image. Your base is weirdly damaged, you have an awful lot of minerals but almost no gas and at least a quarter of your army is in Ghosts. the game was already over I just messed around. The ghosts, were they able to fire and get hit by units on that spot?
there was 1 specific spot where the ghosts couldn't be targeted by a-click as well but I'd assume they would get naturally attacked by enemy units.
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EPT
