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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 21 2016 21:54 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
Yup, but the first part stays valid. Unless Korea use different system they need to prove that Life lost on purpose. Though I have seen some cases where indirect proofs were enough.* So it may be enough if those 2 backers(?) testify against Life.
*+ Show Spoiler +Hell, even some cases in US with death penalty had direct proofs and only DNA tests provided the opposite result.
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Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
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Poland3747 Posts
On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
You're kidding, right?
They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
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On April 21 2016 22:02 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 21:54 Elentos wrote:On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged. Yup, but the first part stays valid. Unless Korea use different system they need to prove that Life lost on purpose. Though I have seen some cases where indirect proofs were enough.* So it may be enough if those 2 backers(?) testify against Life. * + Show Spoiler +Hell, even some cases in US with death penalty had direct proofs and only DNA tests provided the opposite result.
Maybe they only investigated Life to begin with because Enough, who was also involved during the PRIME case, decided to cooperate to improve his own situation. In that case there'd be an additional testimony.
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France12758 Posts
On April 21 2016 22:07 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that. You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
There would not be a korean scene in that case.
Problem is that gambling is huge in Korea since it's forbidden afaik?
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On April 21 2016 21:54 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged.
I don't know the exact redaction of the offence in the SK law.
But I can assure you that there are two types of criminal offences: the ones that requires an actual result, attached to the offence, and the ones that don't. Example of the first one is the murder; example of the second one is the rape.
In the match-fix offence, there should be a result, because gambling is illegal in Korea. Thus, you can't tipify an offence that damages an illegal act such as gambling. That's why I think that the prosecutor must prove the damage to the legal scene in the match-fix offence.
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On April 21 2016 22:07 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that. You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
Ban for life can be argued for.
But stripped of all their prize money? Why? At most, you can strip them of the prize money they won in the competitions they cheated in. Their matchfixing didn't make them win tournaments, so there's no reason to take back what they rightfully earned ; and besides, if you consider that their actions caused important financial damages to KeSPA and the scene, then that's to be resolved in court (and good luck with that), not by a unilateral KeSPA ruling.
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On April 21 2016 21:51 IntoTheheart wrote:
Apoteosis, are you talking about the idea that Life is innocent until proven guilty?
Yes.
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On April 21 2016 22:07 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that. You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
I hope they won't forget to take down his banner for his WCS 2014 win at BlizzCon this year
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On April 21 2016 22:07 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that. You're kidding, right? They should be banned for life and stripped all of their prize money.
Of course they shouldn't lose all of their prize money, that's absurd. Length of punishment... Well it's mostly based on how much it matters to you, isn't it?
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On April 21 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah my opinion hasn't changed, I just can't care about this. I would ban them for like 8 months or something like that.
Agree with this.
Of course he has done a huge mistake but he's only 19 and it's very tempting to take those amounts of money for losing a few games.
I think he'd deserve a 2nd chance but of course that's not gonna happen.
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Considering the fact that Life was named 'best player of 2015' in the TL Awards, this is rather ironic...
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Btw it's pretty crazy Life won both the bo5's where he intentionally lost a match. Having this on your mind must blow your mentality.
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Poland3747 Posts
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
Good luck with proving the damage they done. Mostly because they are not playing for months now and the result isn't in direct response with their actions but mostly with the action of prosecutor who made the statement 
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On April 21 2016 22:10 Apoteosis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 21:54 Elentos wrote:On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged. I don't know the exact redaction of the offence in the SK law. But I can assure you that there are two types of criminal offences: the ones that requires an actual result, attached to the offence, and the ones that don't. Example of the first one is the murder; example of the second one is the rape. In the match-fix offence, there should be a result, because gambling is illegal in Korea. Thus, you can't tipify an offence that damages an illegal act such as gambling. That's why I think that the prosecutor must prove the damage to the legal scene in the match-fix offence.
I see where you're going with this, but I don't agree with the train of thought. What you're saying is basically that if I wanted to lose a specific match, and did so, and received money for it from a financial backer, as long as you can't prove that it damaged the scene, this could not be considered match fixing. That sounds ludicrous if you think about it.
Damaging the scene is such an unspecific terminology that, if it were required for match fixing charges, a good lawyer could get their client out of there easy.
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On April 21 2016 22:21 ejozl wrote:
Btw it's pretty crazy Life won both the bo5's where he intentionally lost a match. Having this on your mind must blow your mentality.
U$30 K for only a few minutes is mind blowing.
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Fuuuuuuck. 
I'll still never 100% believe Life did this willingly and without pressure from anyone else.
Does anyone know what the likely punishment is for this in terms of any prison time? I know he's kind of fucked career wise.
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On April 21 2016 22:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:10 Apoteosis wrote:On April 21 2016 21:54 Elentos wrote:On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
I fail to see this being necessary for the prosecutor to prove. I guess this would be necessary in case of civil charges for compensation for the damage to the scene, but proving the criminal offense of matchfixing in itself shouldn't require evidence that the scene was damaged. I don't know the exact redaction of the offence in the SK law. But I can assure you that there are two types of criminal offences: the ones that requires an actual result, attached to the offence, and the ones that don't. Example of the first one is the murder; example of the second one is the rape. In the match-fix offence, there should be a result, because gambling is illegal in Korea. Thus, you can't tipify an offence that damages an illegal act such as gambling. That's why I think that the prosecutor must prove the damage to the legal scene in the match-fix offence. I see where you're going with this, but I don't agree with the train of thought. What you're saying is basically that if I wanted to lose a specific match, and did so, and received money for it from a financial backer, as long as you can't prove that it damaged the scene, this could not be considered match fixing. That sounds ludicrous if you think about it. Damaging the scene is such an unspecific terminology that, if it were required for match fixing charges, a good lawyer could get their client out of there easy.
Absolutely, you dont have to prove third parties damage in order to convict for match fixing, that is pretty illogical.
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EPT
