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On April 21 2016 22:31 Thalandros wrote:Fuuuuuuck.  I'll still never 100% believe Life did this willingly and without pressure from anyone else. Does anyone know what the likely punishment is for this in terms of any prison time? I know he's kind of fucked career wise.
Probably in line with everyone else ever convicted, a huge fine and then suspended jail time (meaning unless he commits another crime in the time of the suspension, he'll stay a free man). Possibly some hours of social service like sAviOr.
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On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match.
Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match.
Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money.
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
Denial, not just a river in Egypt.
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The sad thing about this all is that there are almost very likely more matchfixing players still active and we will never for sure.
Anyone believing these two being the only ones is living in a dream world.
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If you think about it, Life is that much stronger that he was paid for winning 3-1 instead of 3-0.
Impressive.
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A player loosing matches on purpose because he's not wining anything anymore, I understand. I mean if you're not very good for whatever reason, I can understand you'd accept loosing once more just to get sweet dosh.
But if you're a player as dominant as Life, throwing away your credibility and let all your skill go to waste is a fucking disgrace. I'd like KR justice to be as severe as possible in the Life case.
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On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch.
No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice.
Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
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On April 21 2016 22:38 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice. Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
imagine Obama made USA into a totalitarian state that declared war on Europe and they didn't take away his peace Nobel prize
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On April 21 2016 22:42 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:38 CheddarToss wrote:On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice. Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that? imagine Obama made USA into a totalitarian state that declared war on Europe and they didn't take away his peace Nobel prize
This is just dumb.
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On April 21 2016 22:38 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice. Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that?
I think that reasoning would be correct if he had committed a crime that does not relate to esports in any way. If someone for example holds a Nobel prize for efforts towards world peace and later on he commits a war crime or something they should still have it? I guess not.
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Where was life's parents? Where was his team / coaches? How does such a high profile player get involved in these things without those closest to him knowing about it? I thought the 'kespa system' was supposed to keep these players in check 24/7? It appears that sc2 is 100x more fragile than we thought. If blizzard were to abandon it (and they probably will sooner or later), the pro scene is going to be nothing but bunch of low money basetrade tournaments forever and ever and ever amen (shudder).
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On April 21 2016 22:42 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:38 CheddarToss wrote:On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice. Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that? imagine Obama made USA into a totalitarian state that declared war on Europe and they didn't take away his peace Nobel prize
The ramifications of those actions and the ones of the match fixing players make any kind of comparison impossible. Besides, we all know that Obama's peace prize was ballocks. It should be taken away either way. 
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Not suprised about Life but...
Bbyong... why  
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On April 21 2016 22:44 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:38 CheddarToss wrote:On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice. Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that? I think that reasoning would be correct if he had committed a crime that does not relate to esports in any way.
And what if the person from my example faked some study reults? Would that somehow lessen his/hers revolutionary contribution to science and mankind? I think not.
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Canada8159 Posts
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On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match.
Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match.
Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money.
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations.
wut.
No.
If Life received money from people involved matchfixing don't think they can throw statements LIFE RECEIVED 35 000 000 WON if prosecutor has no proof so that pretty much seals First, 2nd and 3rd.
Effectively damaged e-sports scene? wtf?
If he was forced to do it, we don't know. Its possible but I wouldn't bet on it (lmaoo)
Nothing in this case rings Life is innocent.
As much as I would love to see Life competing again Its not likely. at. all.
On April 21 2016 22:45 HugoBallzak wrote:
Where was life's parents? Where was his team / coaches? How does such a high profile player get involved in these things without those closest to him knowing about it? I thought the 'kespa system' was supposed to keep these players in check 24/7? It appears that sc2 is 100x more fragile than we thought. If blizzard were to abandon it (and they probably will sooner or later), the pro scene is going to be nothing but bunch of low money basetrade tournaments forever and ever and ever amen (shudder).
Matchfixing happens everywhere not just sc2. Kespa is strict but not some god above.
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On April 21 2016 22:47 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:44 aQuaSC wrote:On April 21 2016 22:38 CheddarToss wrote:On April 21 2016 22:21 nimdil wrote:
I don't think there's legal argument for stripping them of money.
But their actions undermined the industry that let them win this money in the first place.
Unless someone would make good argument that industry lost in value due to their actions certain amount of value - perhaps they could be litigated for the damages by i.e. KeSPA. Would be fun to watch. No, just no. The penalty should be in a sound relationship to the crime. Stripping players of their prize money has no element of fairness or justice. Imagine someone making a revolutionary contribution to science (similar to Albert Einstein) and being awarded a Nobel prize for that contribution. X years later that person does something illegal and, according to your logic, should be denied the Nobel prize in retrospect. Where is the justice in that? I think that reasoning would be correct if he had committed a crime that does not relate to esports in any way. And what if the person from my example faked some study reults? Would that somehow lessen his/hers revolutionary contribution to science and mankind? I think not.
I updated my post, I think it kind of connects to your argument.
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On April 21 2016 21:33 sd_andeh wrote:
The mere fact that throwing matches pays 7 times more than WINNING the entire tournament is a huge problem. This is likely not an isolated incident.
Well it's a lot like how it's much more profitable to run drug cartles than it is to get a real job. Play fairly and the other guys who cheat will still do better.
Illegal activity is illegal for a reason and similary the profits from doing illegal activity in the first place largely outweigh what can be done legally.
Blame governments who let this amount of illegal activity take place in the first place, when it's their role to prevent it from happening. Then there's "legal illegal" which is shit like Panama papers or huge conglomerates which are above the law and which view legal expenses in the same way was they would view energy or rent expenses.
If illegal activity were 0 or close to it, then people who follow the law in the first place would all be much better off, since you don't have all the dirty money circulating around in the first place.
So don't blame Kespa, blame the criminals who run that shit in the first place and blame the (probably corrupt) fucks in the Korean government who let it happen.
That's where the root of match-fixing being a problem is. People who abide the law are forced to carry the weight of the economic repercussions illegal activities entail in the first place.
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On April 21 2016 22:34 sharkie wrote:
The sad thing about this all is that there are almost very likely more matchfixing players still active and we will never for sure.
Anyone believing these two being the only ones is living in a dream world.
On April 21 2016 21:33 sd_andeh wrote:
The mere fact that throwing matches pays 7 times more than WINNING the entire tournament is a huge problem. This is likely not an isolated incident.
this is also true for other competitive events getting fixed. the fraudsters go right after the lowest paid guys to influence them to alter the outcome of a match.
i think matchfixing is at epidemic levels in SC2.
its amazing how the general public beliefs about matchfixing have changed since the publishing of the book "The Fix" by Declan Hill. He went from being labelled "a crazy fake moon landing conspiracy theorist" to "brave investigative journalist" in 2 years. Giant sports organizations went way out of their way to discredit him and make up stories about the guy. Turns out he was right all along.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2016 22:48 Darrkhan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 21:39 Apoteosis wrote:
Proving a match-fix is really sketchy.
First, the prosecutor must prove the intentional lose at that particular match.
Second, the prosecutor must prove the intention or purpose of the progamer, to actually throw the match.
Third, the prosecutor must prove, if the purpose was money, that the progamer involved actually recieved the money.
And finally, the prosecutor must prove that the match throwed, effectively damaged the e-sports scene.
On the other hand, if during the investigation is proved that the progamer was forced to matchfix, either by force on him or his family, the progamer should be absolved.
Confession is not a valid proof in the civilized criminal law systems (don't know if in SK the confession is a valid proof).
Anyways, Life is innocent. I actually think that if he hires a good criminal lawyer, he has a good chance of getting away from the accusations. wut. No. If Life received money from people involved matchfixing don't think they can throw statements LIFE RECEIVED 35 000 000 WON if prosecutor has no proof so that pretty much seals First, 2nd and 3rd. Effectively damaged e-sports scene? wtf? If he was forced to do it, we don't know. Its possible but I wouldn't bet on it (lmaoo) Nothing in this case rings Life is innocent. As much as I would love to see Life competing again Its not likely. at. all. Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 22:45 HugoBallzak wrote:
Where was life's parents? Where was his team / coaches? How does such a high profile player get involved in these things without those closest to him knowing about it? I thought the 'kespa system' was supposed to keep these players in check 24/7? It appears that sc2 is 100x more fragile than we thought. If blizzard were to abandon it (and they probably will sooner or later), the pro scene is going to be nothing but bunch of low money basetrade tournaments forever and ever and ever amen (shudder). Matchfixing happens everywhere not just sc2. Kespa is strict but not some god above.
Giving someone money isn't illegal, you need to prove what he's accused for. That's the root of legal system. You cannot just say - well, we cannot prove he lost on purpose or he was payed to lost, but hey, he received money, he had to do something!!! What will come next, exorcism because he is obviously possessed?
And second thing - KeSPA does nothing and doesn't care unless some shit happens. As it looks their prevention is to make the life of Yoda and B4 as miserable as they can.
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EPT
