EPTIs SC2 too fast? - Page 14
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ejozl
Denmark3445 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
You cant nerf life or starcraft | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
a possibility about a year or so ago, I don't know if it was mentioned again though. | ||
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rrrzzz
48 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On April 16 2016 10:00 washikie wrote: I disagree with all the people saying that Starcraft lacks stratagy. I think people who say this don't understand all the decision making that goes into playing the game at a decent level. I don't claim to be great at the game. I am only a mid tier masters player but even at my level I percive the substantial swing in advantage that strategic thinking can provide you in a game. Consider the scouting phase of the early game. Since I play Terran I'm going to talk from a Terran's perspective. As Terran you usually want to set up you economy and infistucture at this stage of the game while keeping tabs on your opponent. To do this scouting is critical. Say that I send out a reaper to see what my opponent is up to in tvp if I see 2 gas and a cyber core I know it's some kind of pressure opening. If I see a faster nexus then my opponent is planing to play more economically. From this information I need to make a wide variety of strategic decisions. If my opponent went for pressure I need to try to Scout it but I might not know what it is. Do I build a bunker at my front? Do I invest in missle turrets to deny oracles and Dts? Do I delay my star port to get extra barracks. Do I make cyclones or tanks? These are all strategic dicisions that will help me survive the early game. If instead my opponent opened defensive I need to figure out how I'm going to keep up with there economy. Do I try to get aggressive with some drop harass? Do I try to take a faster third base since they probably won't attack me? After this early phase of the game there are even more important decisions you have to make. The biggest 3 are generally what unit comp to go. When should I try to take my next base. And when should I try to do damage to my opponent as a Terran once agian these decisions are driven by information on what your opponent is doing . Based on thier unit comp you can determine what supprt units your army needs. Based on the time they plop down thier new bases and also the timing of thier Tech and your own economic state you decide weather to attake or not. There are countless examples I can give where you need to make decisions In a game of Starcraft and those dessions and the reasoning behind them vary based on matchup and game state. Now to adress the question of speed. Speed is important in sc2 there is no doubting that but it's not the only thing that matters. How fast you play often dictates how much stuff you can make. How much harass you can do and how well you manage fights. But speed can be counterbalanced by stratagy because like speed good corner cutting and decision making provide you an advantage. Further at the highest level I have herd pros describe how choosing which actions to do becomes part of the stratagy of the game because both you and your opponent are near the limit of amp that most people can achieve. Mechanics matter but that does not mean strategy does not. And for the game being to fast well, that's part of the fun and challenge its one of the things that makes sc2 an awesome game but it's not for everyone if it's not for you why not try playing a tbs like civ or chess. sc2 has a ton of decisions that are presented to players every game that are a result of the specific game state. Making the correct decisions at these points usualy has a huge impact on if you win or lose the game. This impact becomes greater as your mechanicle skill increases because at a point players tend to macro well enough that the edge they gain from decision making is greater than what they gain from mechanics alone. deciding when to attack, where to take a fight. When to expand. When to harass. How much army vs tech you want to build all of theses dessions arnt made in a vacume players must consider thier position and the position of the opponent and make the right move in response. Players who are very good at making these dessions tend to lose less to allins, not fall behind on Econ, and most importantly recover from disadvantages in the opening game. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 04 2016 15:15 WeddingEpisode wrote: Blizzard did mention slowing down the game as a possibility about a year or so ago, I don't know if it was mentioned again though. They were offering slowing the game speed which was unbelievably stupid IMO. Not sure what they were thinking, if anything. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
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Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
I recently played WOL again and it feels like playing on slowmo. Honestly, i think that new and casual players would have more fünf and better accessibility to the game if it would be a toggle... Like slow and regular speed. If I remember right, it was considered that the game shall be on a slower pace for players placed below platinum. Not necessarily a bad idea, but shall be a toggle. | ||
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
My problem is more with how quickly you can die if not watching for an instance. This is really frustrating, and extremely anticlimactic. If your things wouldn't melt in 3 seconds, you'd be given a chance to act, thus not making the game feel a little less quick. Things like the "flying discoball speedy gonzales" (lol), Banelings, Storm. It's gotten better with LotV, but still. The Oracle is really ugly. Take my Terran Tears™ on top of this: Our "terrible-terrible-damage"-units are rendered quite useless: Heat Seeking Missile have been severely nerfed. Nukes are the coolest thing in the game, but the opponent still has 14 (!) seconds to respond. Tanks? Yes, but they are pretty slow, so the chances to run into a tank line unintentionally is pretty small. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
I think that it comes from the fact that in sc2 are a lot of mechanics that snowball really quickly and spiral out of control so it is quite easy to gain momentum in game and also capitalize on gained advantage fast. Macro mechanics do accelerate economy so it grows more rapidly. Fights end quickly because slight advantage in army size snowball really fast due too perfect unit clumping, movement pathing etc. In other words once one player gains momentum it is really hard to stop him from dismantling the opponent and a lot of good strategies in sc2 revolve around that momentum concept. Zergs tends to overwhelm opponents with larva mechanic going for quick huge economy and then ton of quickly produced units. Protoss used to warpgate rush a lot because You could easily spiral out of control, killing couple of stray units when opponent was unprepared and then higher army size + fast reinforcements did the rest. Terran bio ball probably the best example as it is heavily momentum based. High DPS density, quick movement speed to catch retreating units + huge mobility thanks to medivacs - It is really common for terran to try to drop time and time again without great success and then when suddenly one drop works than it is much easier for following drops/attacks to deal dmg and 30sec later opponent just collapses and dies because Terran got too much momentum. So what I'm trying to say that it is not about "sc2 being too fast" it's more about "sc2 accelerates too quickly" I think. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I do not feel SC2 is too fast right now in the sense that there is still plenty of room for unit control. It is rare I cannot avoid taking damage because of "how units die fast" alone, most of the time games are won or lost on timings mistakes or bad scouted harass damage. Nothing to do with "speed" per se. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
On June 04 2016 13:11 Za7oX wrote: You should be playing people near your speed. If you get better you play vs people that are quicker. You cant nerf life or starcraft You got it wrong. You can nerf starcraft, but you cant nerf the people playing it. In other words, if the game gets easier, it gets easier for everyone. | ||
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Thinh123456
70 Posts
The second thing is: "who got the larger army is also the winner despite any areas of the map". Thing like this doesn't happen much in BW: 3 siegetanks, 3-4 vultures with mines, supply depots can hold 2-3 groups of Protoss units for an acceptable time. In SC2, the hill is overtaken by the Protoss within 3-5 secs. LOL  ))) | ||
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Thinh123456
70 Posts
On June 07 2016 23:43 Barrin wrote: I just had to find this. source I know what they were thinking (possibly better than they do). I never should've doubted DK. I clearly don't want to slow down the pacing of combat in the game, but things like Baneling that cause me instantly lose because of missed click, missed closely watching is totatty unacceptable and very frustrating. DK and his dev team really misunderstand about this matter. Fast-pace game is good but instantly loss is a really an opposite, annoying problem. In my op, this is the most fundamental thing that every players even pros feel very frustrated about. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 07 2016 21:12 DjayEl wrote: Anything real-time based game will produce the same kind of feelings. I dont agree with you there. I dare to say BW was different and I can explain why I feel this way. In BW each race had certain units which were incredibly powerful at defense but not nearly as good at offense. Zergs got lurkers which need to burrow before they can attack. Running them into your enemies base to burrow, you are probably going to take quite a bit of damage (and lose some) before they can actually attack. But having a sunken / spore / lurker defense at home is almost inpenetrable without any form of siege. Defilers bring defense to a whole another level with their Dark Swarm. Of course DS can be used offensively too, but that is more dangerous since the Defiler could be sniped. Having the Defiler jump from one Nydus to the other and quickly use its spell is more safe. Terrans of course have siege tanks and mines; bunkers and turrets. Protoss have super slow moving Reavers and their awesome photon cannons with high DPS against all units. Having strong defensive units means that you can survive and enemy attack even if you are behind. And you can even have a cost effective attack if you manage to hit your enemy off guard and you secure a well defended location near their base. (for example barricading yourself within their natural) The defensive units in BW were also good at offense. But they were much better at defense. When they were used offensively it was much harder to make them cost efficient. A group of siege tanks could easily be killed by a few zerglings, zealots or vultures if they were not protected by other units. The same group of siege tanks could kill almost infinite numbers of zerglings, zealots and vultures if used to their full defensive potential. In SC2 units dont feel that way to me. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On June 08 2016 00:05 Thinh123456 wrote: I clearly don't want to slow down the pacing of combat in the game, but things like Baneling that cause me instantly lose because of missed click, missed closely watching is totatty unacceptable and very frustrating. DK and his dev team really misunderstand about this matter. Fast-pace game is good but instantly loss is a really an opposite, annoying problem. In my op, this is the most fundamental thing that every players even pros feel very frustrated about. I agree with this, but it doesn't matter because they're not going to change the game. If anything there's been a clear direction towards adding more and more bullshit ways to lose in both expansions. Why fight it? Now instead of positional, macro games I just try to drown my opponents in all the bullshit strats I can think of. Inflicting the bullshit is way, way more fun than trying to survive the bullshit. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On June 08 2016 00:27 RoomOfMush wrote: Having strong defensive units means that you can survive and enemy attack even if you are behind. And you can even have a cost effective attack if you manage to hit your enemy off guard and you secure a well defended location near their base. (for example barricading yourself within their natural) The defensive units in BW were also good at offense. But they were much better at defense. When they were used offensively it was much harder to make them cost efficient. A group of siege tanks could easily be killed by a few zerglings, zealots or vultures if they were not protected by other units. The same group of siege tanks could kill almost infinite numbers of zerglings, zealots and vultures if used to their full defensive potential. In SC2 units dont feel that way to me. it's not that siege tanks and lurkers are weaker in SC2. It's just that the other units have been made so much stronger. Marines start with 45 hp, and go up to 55 vs. 40 max in BW. You've got marauders, roaches, ravagers etc. which can take out lurkers and siege tanks efficiently. Air units are way stronger than in BW. The power creep on medivacs vs. dropships is just ridiculous. Basically all the offensive units have been buffed and the defensive options were left in the dust. Then you have issues like the broken high ground advantage and warp-ins negating defender's advantage. Removing scourge gives all those super-speedy dropships and air units free reign. All this means SC2 strongly favors offense and if you're playing defensively you're in for a bad time. | ||
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FTLMODs
9 Posts
Welcome to real life where time is money and your interest often doesn't collide with corporate interest. P/S: I prefer WoL and HotS pace, but I adapted okay-ish in LotV. | ||
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Thinh123456
70 Posts
On June 08 2016 00:43 BaronVonOwn wrote: I agree with this, but it doesn't matter because they're not going to change the game. If anything there's been a clear direction towards adding more and more bullshit ways to lose in both expansions. Why fight it? Now instead of positional, macro games I just try to drown my opponents in all the bullshit strats I can think of. Inflicting the bullshit is way, way more fun than trying to survive the bullshit. I still hope that they will do this, perhaps not in this expansion but in another expansion of SC2. (SC:BW was released 1 year after SC:Origin). I think we need to accept that this is the expansion of DK and Blizzard, not for us much, so let they do whatever they want and keep praying after that they will do what the community asks for in the next expansion of SC2. | ||
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