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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
Come on, his peak was the highest in all of SC2 history. Granted, it was short, but he had "that aura", related to the "b" word, at least for a little while. Byul had nothing to do on that list. Jaedong had more second places than him lol Never forget: | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8323 Posts
I'm starting to finally lean towards 3. Innovation, 2. Life, 1. sOs But I dunno... I had forgotten about Life's MLG win vs Flash to really kick off HoTS. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8323 Posts
On February 25 2016 22:34 wjat wrote: Innovation should be top 1 Why? hellbat nerf, window mine nerf, invented parade push style, made mech look imba in TvZ. He was also a beast in proleague. The only other player I could see top 1 is sOs: He is the reason why "protoss is bullshit". I think we all know why Life can't be ranked 1... OH RIGHT! Huh. Yeah it'll be interesting to see if Life's part of this starts off if a "Lord of the Battlefield" style intro. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Yes, he won a lot of weekender tournaments. Perhapss that's where his priorities lie. He beats KeSPA Starleague winners in such tourneys, therefore he is better than them? Not necessarily so . I am quite confident that KeSPA players' priorities lie in SPL and Starleagues first. Which makes them less prepared, motivated and fresh for weekenders. This whole 'Taeja-beating-top-players-in-weekenders' tournament is also skewed because he doesn't even get far in Starleagues for top KeSPA players to beat him there. Point is, you can't just give him higher weightage in his weekender wins simply because he beat an S-class player head-to-head, and yet ignore him losing to B-class player in Starleague which S-class player then beats. Which is why Starleagues are always a safe yardstick for objective excellence - the consistency is there every season, as the top KR players there. Whereas weekenders are dependent on not only invites and qualifiers, but also availability and interest. And then you have to examine how 'stacked' the tournament is, to determine its subjective excellence. Nothing wrong with that, but somehow in the making of such power rankings, this subjective analysis tends to inflate the value of weekenders over Starleagues (simply because Taeja beat Starleague champions there yada yada). It's a bit like Yellow beating the likes of Boxer in special tournaments back in BW - except that no one would argue that Yellow had better results than Boxer in the greater scheme of things. To me, 'stacked' weekenders are more closely at par with KeSPA Cup, and sit below Starleagues. And to me, Starleague is like a Grand Slam for SC (it just so happens because KR have all the top players, and all KR-based players are eligible for Starleagues), and even Blizzcon is more like the year-end Masters. If you haven't won a Starleague, you certainly don't belong in Top 5, maybe not even Top 10 (not that winning a Starleague puts you in Top 10 instantly, because repeat winners and sole winners with other tourney wins will always be higher than the one-hit-wonders ie the Snipers and Hewitts of the world  ). And Taeja hasn't even had top finishes in Starleagues, for crying out loud! Life, Zest, Inno, sOs, soO and herO should all be comfortably placed above him in the final list, I hope.Sorry for the rambling. Probably Taeja doesn't figure that high anyway, and I'm jumping the gun here. But it's not just about Teaja. It's also about how undervalued Starleagues are in the making of such power rankings. Classic as #11 is a big surprise. The guy has won 2 Starleagues and a monster in SPL!  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
That's pure BS and you know it. There are at least some proofs about round Earth. There's none proof about your "objective" statement. Well if GSL is objectively harder, as you say so, then how it is possible that soO never won Blizzcon. He made 4 2nd places in a row and didn't win this easier tournament? Hmm, I wonder... Edit- soO also never made a 2nd place at Blizzcon  We are talking about 2 different types of tournament, you cannot compare which one is harder. But whatever, you use such idiotic arguments, why should I try... | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On February 25 2016 22:46 Elentos wrote: Take soO. soO is gonna end up higher on the list than Classic because he was the best Zerg in the world for 4 GSLs straight (~1 year). No other player will be able to match that consistency. But he'll still end up lower than players who weren't consistently as strong but won stuff when they were. (Emphasis mine.) This is a lot more debatable than you think. Right before Blizzcon, I did my own breakdown of who was the #1 player of HOTS. To do this I did a break down of all stats for INno, Life, Zest, soO, and Maru that I thought were relevant, with a keen eye to consistency. (You might not want to look past the OP if you want to keep the identity of stuchiu's top 3 a secret.) Maru participated in every single Korean premier event in HotS. soO and INno, the next highest, participated in 8/9. If we then take their success at these premiers and divide it up by how many events they attended, to get their average placement, we arrive at: Maru, on average, drops out in the Ro"10.3" INno, on average, 14.2 soO, 19.1 Life, 26.1 Zest, 36.7 (Zest attended less than half of the Korean premiers in HOTS) And keep in mind that Zerg representation at premiers was very stable throughout HOTS, while Terrans went nearly extinct for a time. So INno and Maru getting consistently better premier results (spread out over all of HOTS) than soO (whose best results all fall into the same meta), despite whatever balance issues, is actually quite remarkable consistency and in my opinion is excellent basis for giving INnoVation #1 and Maru somewhere between #3 and #6. My personal list would look something like 1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Maru 4. sOs 5. Zest - although he was a non-entity for a huge chunk of HOTS, his average result in the premiers he made it to is ludicrously high, 5.25 to Maru's 10.3. 6. soO 7. Classic 8. herO 9. Rain 10. Taeja 11. PartinG 12. Soulkey | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
The importance of performing well in PL typically seems to to rival individual GSL/SSL results, and you can't discount how much harder it is to simultaneously prepare for both (compared to someone like Taeja or Polt) who can research almost solely for specific tournaments while having little game material of their own for others to study on a regular basis. To excel at both grueling formats is the true indicator for me of greatness. For my personal rankings; + Show Spoiler + My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno the role/results each player had during the entirety of the HOTS era PL (specifically the 2014 and 2015 seasons when the game was much more fleshed out) was critical. Maru: undisputed ace player for a constant playoff team, dominated PL for long stretches w/ insane win rates (albeit in a bad slump to end last season) herO: undisputed ace player for a constant playoff team (although Byul became the 1A option), dominant at times, and visibly outclassed almost all opponents Zest: undisputed ace player for a championship team (despite occasional losses to lesser opponents), dominant at times and was repeatedly sent out against the very best opposition *sOs: a critical lineup regular for a constant playoff team, while fluctuating between dominating some rounds and having mediocre results in others. Went on one of the most dominant stretches ever between 1st and 2nd rounds of the season ending playoffs last year, defeated Zest on D1. Then reverse all-kill of Flash, TY, Zest, Stats to defeat KT on D2 to eliminate the defending champions. Then against CJ in semis, defeated Byul on D1, and sent JAGW to the grand finals after defeating herO and Byul on D2. *Inno/soO: both were brought down to an extent by SKT being so dominant, but much of that dominance stemmed from both these core starting members being so good. Both received infrequent ace appearances (since SKT rarely challenged and fielded such a deep team). After SKT let go Rain, PartinG, Soulkey (and Fantasy) after falling to KT in 2014, many assumed a natural regression. Instead in came Inno who dominated right away, which coupled w/ the continued rise of Classic, the general dominance of soO, and the huge growth of Dark and Dream, created an unstoppable team that rolled to the championship in remarkable fashion. *Life: the weakest PL player of my S class tier. Obviously his improvisational/adaptable play-style much better suited to the BO individual tournament format. Served as the ace player for Startale and carried a weak team to the R1 playoffs last season on multiple ace match wins. But largely disappointed upon joining KT mid round (when many assumed he would make them unbeatable), and by season ending playoff time, wasn't even in their core starting four. While having occasional PL success here and there, Life has never looked dominant/unbeatable on a weekly basis in the most challenging team league (against absolute top tier competition who study you and with coaching, craft a specific game-plan to snipe you on a single map), unlike the other six names on my list frequently have. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On February 26 2016 01:53 pure.Wasted wrote: (Emphasis mine.) This is a lot more debatable than you think. Right before Blizzcon, I did my own breakdown of who was the #1 player of HOTS. To do this I did a break down of all stats for INno, Life, Zest, soO, and Maru that I thought were relevant, with a keen eye to consistency. (You might not want to look past the OP if you want to keep the identity of stuchiu's top 3 a secret.) Maru participated in every single Korean premier event in HotS. soO and INno, the next highest, participated in 8/9. If we then take their success at these premiers and divide it up by how many events they attended, to get their average placement, we arrive at: Maru, on average, drops out in the Ro"10.3" INno, on average, 14.2 soO, 19.1 Life, 26.1 Zest, 36.7 (Zest attended less than half of the Korean premiers in HOTS) And keep in mind that Zerg representation at premiers was very stable throughout HOTS, while Terrans went nearly extinct for a time. So INno and Maru getting consistently better premier results (spread out over all of HOTS) than soO (whose best results all fall into the same meta), despite whatever balance issues, is actually quite remarkable and in my opinion is excellent basis for giving INnoVation #1 and Maru somewhere between #3 and #6. My personal list would look something like 1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Maru 4. sOs 5. Zest - although he was a non-entity for a huge chunk of HOTS, his average result in the premiers he made it to is ludicrously high, 5.25 to Maru's 10.3. 6. soO 7. Classic 8. herO 9. Rain 10. Taeja 11. PartinG 12. Soulkey Interesting analysis. I'm fascinated particularly about Maru. He is consistently excellent, able to beat any player any given day, yet somehow always falls short at the R08 and RO4 stage. Maybe it's the luck of the draw, seeing how he's almost always beaten by the eventual champion. But still puts him at soO-level at most. So as impressive his play is, I can't put myself to rank him Top 5 in HoTS. Pity we never saw him in weekenders. Maybe his raw skill would've thrived there. Still better than Taeja, though | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On February 26 2016 02:01 RKC wrote: Interesting analysis. I'm fascinated particularly about Maru. He is consistently excellent, able to beat any player any given day, yet somehow always falls short at the R08 and RO4 stage. Maybe it's the luck of the draw, seeing how he's almost always beaten by the eventual champion. But still puts him at soO-level at most. So as impressive his play is, I can't put myself to rank him Top 5 in HoTS. Pity we never saw him in weekenders. Maybe his raw skill would've thrived there. Still better than Taeja, though Maru won a GSL and an SSL. That ain't nuthin.  | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On February 26 2016 02:08 pure.Wasted wrote: Maru won a GSL and an SSL. That ain't nuthin. Oh yeah, I keep forgetting his OSL win against Rain. I stand corrected then. He's a PL monster too. So he makes a strong contender for Top 5! | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9066 Posts
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On February 25 2016 23:00 ZertoN wrote: not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final. if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows: 1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player. | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On February 26 2016 03:39 swissman777 wrote: Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player. Impossible to say how he would have done in PL 2014 since he wasn't there. But your reasoning appears fundamentally flawed when considering the following; In 2013 for STX he went 43-20 winning 68% of his games. (Only 1 win behind Flash for most overall, w/ <60% win rate in all match-ups) In 2015 for SKT he went 18-7 winning 72% of his games. (#9 in overall wins due largely to not always being in the stacked lineup, w/ at least a 60% win rate in all match-ups) While he unperformed relative to his S class standards while abroad (beginning early September, 2013), Aligulac shows he was already on the rebound and moving back up come early the following year (~mid April, 2014). His 'underachieving' time on ACER would be considered extraordinarily successful for most others (5 all-kills of 5 in a row each). SKT clearly viewed him as a transformative player, who would thrive back in the KESPA training environment. Which is why they prioritized him as the biggest offseason PL acquisition before the start of 2015. He went 6-0 in R1 upon his PL return. And looked absolutely dominant in the process. Slipped a bit in the middle rounds while struggling with mechanical/meta game issues. And once fixed, ended R4 w/ a perfect 4-0 record. Defeated a hotter than-the-sun sOs in a hard fought and decisive G4 in the GF. Widely viewed going in as the critical pivot one between the two best players on their respective teams. If I had to guess based on his team league history, I'd say he would have excelled in PL 2014. There is only overwhelming evidence that supports (zero against) that he is a team league god. *WCS Global Finals 2014 was a disgrace due to the constant lag outs and players being dropped from games (up until the GF). Would have been terrible if it was a minor tournament and that happened, let alone the biggest stage of all. Would hardly consider beating Hyun and then losing to Taeja (coming off his historical summer) in RO8 a 'bad run'. Some players, notably Inno were much more impacted than others by the repeated technical failures (he was visibly on the point of tears w/ frustration at the incessant glitches). WCS Global Finals 2015. If crushing Zest 3-0 and then losing to eventual runner-up Life (current GOAT) in the RO8 in a close series where Life played out of his mind, is considered bad, then standards are unrealistic. Inno was the favorite going in, and if not for some bad decisions (should have stuck w/ his unbeatable mech) and unusual mistakes, could easily have won despite Life's incredible play. | ||
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Ve5pa
United Kingdom252 Posts
I really enjoy some of the weekender tournaments though and perhaps maybe someone could create another list for top performers at those sort of events. | ||
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
On February 26 2016 05:16 Orr wrote: dont forget that terrans were clearly UP during blizzcon, as show the previous 6 months of premier tournaments results.Impossible to say how he would have done in PL 2014 since he wasn't there. But your reasoning appears fundamentally flawed when considering the following; In 2013 for STX he went 43-20 winning 68% of his games. (Only 1 win behind Flash for most overall, w/ <60% win rate in all match-ups) In 2015 for SKT he went 18-7 winning 72% of his games. (#9 in overall wins due largely to not always being in the stacked lineup, w/ at least a 60% win rate in all match-ups) While he unperformed relative to his S class standards while abroad (beginning early September, 2013), Aligulac shows he was already on the rebound and moving back up come early the following year (~mid April, 2014). His 'underachieving' time on ACER would be considered extraordinarily successful for most others (5 all-kills of 5 in a row each). SKT clearly viewed him as a transformative player, who would thrive back in the KESPA training environment. Which is why they prioritized him as the biggest offseason PL acquisition before the start of 2015. He went 6-0 in R1 upon his PL return. And looked absolutely dominant in the process. Slipped a bit in the middle rounds while struggling with mechanical/meta game issues. And once fixed, ended R4 w/ a perfect 4-0 record. Defeated a hotter than-the-sun sOs in a hard fought and decisive G4 in the GF. Widely viewed coming in as the critical pivot one between the two best players on their respective teams. If I had to guess based on his team league history, I'd say he would have excelled in PL 2014. There is only overwhelming evidence that supports (zero against) that he is a team league god. *WCS Global Finals 2014 was a disgrace due to the constant lag outs and players being dropped from games (up until the GF). Would have been terrible if it was a minor tournament and that happened, let alone the biggest stage of all. Would hardly consider beating Hyun and then losing to Taeja (coming off his historical summer) in RO8 a 'bad run'. Some players, notably Inno were much more impacted than others by the repeated technical failures (he was visibly on the point of tears w/ frustration at the incessant glitches). WCS Global Finals 2015. If crushing Zest 3-0 and then losing to eventual runner-up Life (current GOAT) in the RO8 in a close series where Life played out of his mind, is considered bad, then standards are unrealistic. Inno was the favorite going in, and if not for some bad decisions (should have stuck w/ his unbeatable mech) and unusual mistakes, could easily have won despite Life's incredible play. And he would have demolished life if he played safe, since life can only all in and is just awfull in a macro game | ||
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ZertoN
Germany214 Posts
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wjat
385 Posts
I'll give mine. ZvZ: soO, Life, Soulkey ZvP: soO, Life, ByuL ZvT: Life, Dark, soO PvP: Zest, sOs, PartinG PvZ: sOs, Zest, Classic PvT: PartinG, herO, sOs TvT: forGG, Taeja, Maru TvP: Maru, Innovation, Polt TvZ: Innovation, Taeja, Dream I am curious. what would be yours? | ||
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ElPres1dente
89 Posts
On February 26 2016 07:03 Ensiferum8 wrote: dont forget that terrans were clearly UP during blizzcon, as show the previous 6 months of premier tournaments results. And he would have demolished life if he played safe, since life can only all in and is just awfull in a macro game Innovation also once said in an interview that life lacks basic skills and then got crushed in macro games. I agree with you though that inno could´ve played better at blizzcon btw inno is the only player playing in the korean region who has been at every Blizzcon of hots | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On February 26 2016 07:50 wjat wrote: I think it would be funny to do a top3 for each matchup in HotS!!! I'll give mine. ZvZ: soO, Life, Soulkey ZvP: soO, Life, ByuL ZvT: Life, Dark, soO PvP: Zest, sOs, PartinG PvZ: sOs, Zest, Classic PvT: PartinG, herO, sOs TvT: forGG, Taeja, Maru TvP: Maru, Innovation, Polt TvZ: Innovation, Taeja, Dream I am curious. what would be yours? ZvZ: Life >= soO > Soulkey (Maybe Rogue or Dark over Soulkey) ZvP: Life >= soO > Solar (Feel like ByuL is on the cusp) ZvT: ByuL >= Dark > Life (ByuL had the best ling/bane ever in 2015 and heroically stood against mech TvZ) == PvP: Zest > Rain >= sOs (Zest's bread and butter of 2014 was his PvP) PvZ: Rain >= Classic > Zest (least sure about this one) PvT: PartinG > herO > Rain (PartinG is untouchable) == TvT: Bogus = Taeja = Flash (pretty much a triangle here; honorable mentions to TY and Bomber) TvZ: Bogus>>>>>> Maru >= Taeja (Bogus is best TvZ player of all-time not just of HotS) TvP: Maru > Polt > Bogus (Straightforward imo) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16101 Posts
On February 26 2016 08:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: ZvZ: Life >= soO > Soulkey (Maybe Rogue or Dark over Soulkey) ZvP: Life >= soO > Solar (Feel like ByuL is on the cusp) ZvT: ByuL >= Dark > Life (ByuL had the best ling/bane ever in 2015 and heroically stood against mech TvZ) == PvP: Zest > Rain >= sOs (Zest's bread and butter of 2014 was his PvP) PvZ: Rain >= Classic > Zest (least sure about this one) PvT: PartinG > herO > Rain (PartinG is untouchable) == TvT: Bogus = Taeja = Flash (pretty much a triangle here; honorable mentions to TY and Bomber) TvZ: Bogus>>>>>> Maru >= Taeja (Bogus is best TvZ player of all-time not just of HotS) TvP: Maru > Polt > Bogus (Straightforward imo) Life was always pretty bad at zvp most of his wins there came through cheese. Same with Maru in tvz | ||
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