Having already done exhaustive rankings of the Greatest Players of All Time and the Greatest Foreigners of All Time, it seemed natural to me to that I’d wrap up HotS with a list of the Greatest HotS players. None of my criteria have changed from previous iterations, but here is a quick summary for those who hadn’t read the previous editions. You can read all of my criteria here.
Because there is a large overlap with this list and the previous Greatest Players of All Time, there will not be an exhaustive analysis on their stories, playstyles or an extensive explanation describing how I balanced the various factors. Just a brief summary of their place in the history of HotS and what they did to make the list.
ByuL’s career has been incredibly varied. He has played on a foreign team, an eSF team and a KeSPA team. He’s played in WCS and GSL, GSTL and Proleague. His play style has been equally disparate, sometimes playing full on macro Zerg, sometimes pulling out strange and weird builds from any influence of any style from NesTea’s muta base trade to Life’s counter-attack style of ZvT. And in both cases he improved upon them. He took NesTea's base trade style, but made better tactical and strategic decisions. He took Life's ZvBio style and improved on it in multiple ways. Life's style generally instantly won him the game. In ByuL's case he did counter attacks that committed less, but did more damage over a longer period of time while losing less. He built small low risk advantages all throughout the game that eventually collapsed the Terran player.
He achieved some success at the end of 2013 in WCS NA where he declared that he believed he was easily in the Top 5 most skilled players of the world. In the next year however, he was unable to prove it after moving back to Korea and getting middling results in team league, but he played the ace for IM in Proleague and did well. Eventually his style and his learned improvements all came together on his time on CJ and by the latter half of 2015, he was easily the best Zerg player in the world. Sadly, it was ultimately clear that despite his incredible skill he could never close out finals and joined the sons of soO.
Difference between ByuL and MMA:
While MMA had a large amount of results and more time being relevant, the players ByuL beat on his runs in Korea outclassed MMA enough to out weight MMA’s achievements in HotS.
#14 | Bomber
Achievements
Tier 1
OSL 2013 - Top 4
WCS Season 2 Finals - 1st
Blizzcon 2013 - Top 4
WCS NA 2014 S2 - 2nd
WCS NA 2014 S3 - 1st
IEM San Jose - Top 4
Tier 2
Red Bull Austin - 2nd
Red Bull Washington - 1st
Tier 4
Red Bull Atlanta - 1st
Bomber’s career is a lesson to everyone about the importance of mechanics. Back during the peak of his skills from 2011-2012, Bomber was hailed (rightfully) as one of the best mechanical Terrans in the world and a player on Mvp’s skill level. Yet he could never take advantage of that skill as he often failed at critical moments throughout his WoL career against arguably worse players during that time.
So then what was the secret to his HotS success? If you ask me it was that Bomber has never forgotten a lesson or build he's learned since entering SC2 in early 2011. His mechanical skill relative to the rest of the scene had gone down substantially as there was an increase in overall skill and number of players. Yet Bomber took those lessons and learned how he could use it to counter his opponents even in a more modern meta. His vast repertoire allowed him to pull out builds that his opponents had never seen or played against and used it to his advantage. That was the difference between Bomber and a vast majority of players. The more you practice, the more you get stuck in the meta where there are always certain builds and playstyles that seem to dominate the field and become standard. Bomber would learn those, but he’d always pull out a random build he’d learned from any time he played in. The biggest example of this was his finals vs Jaedong in the WCS Season 2 Finals where he did early stim timings, combat shield marine attacks, a bunker rush and marine/tank composition.
When we talk about Bomber’s time in WoL, we always say that it was disappointing and underachieving compared to his skill. I’d argue it was the exact opposite during his time in HotS. His peak skill had faded yet he churned out the best results of his life from 2013-2014, far outperforming players that we perceived to be better than him (like Flash). Hats off to Bomber for having the best years of his career in HotS during the most competitive era of SC2.
Difference between Bomber and ByuL:
Bomber’s overall results isn’t too different from MMA except Bomber had an additional WCS Season 2 finals victory as well as his Red Bull Washington victory which was filled with strong players. Bomber just hit a higher peak overall than MMA and that along with the length of time he was active as one of the best players in HotS (2 years to ByuL’s half a year) was enough to put him over ByuL.
#13 | Soulkey
Achievements
Tier 1
GSL Season 1 2013 - 1st
WCS Season 1 Finals 2013 - Top 4
GSL Season 3 2013 - Top 4
WCS Season 3 Finals 2013 - 2nd
WCG KR - Top 3
Hot6ix Cup - 2nd
IEM Taipei - Top 4
Tier 4
WCG 2013 - 1st
After an impressive showing in GSL at the very end of WoL, Soulkey (along with the 7 other Ro8 GSL players) did what many thought impossible. They stayed relevant after the switch from WoL to HotS despite having had much less practice in HotS compared to their contemporaries. More than relevance, Soulkey quickly swept past Life and became the best Zerg at the beginning of HotS and remained so for all of 2013. For that entire year, he was the Zerg to beat and his rivalries against INnoVation and sOs would write the history of 2013.
Difference between Soulkey and Bomber:
Soulkey’s peak consistency for all of 2013 as the best Zerg did better than Bomber’s up and downs in 2013 and 2014. Overall, his consistency and success in Korea just let Soulkey defeat more Top 10 players along the way.
#12 | PartinG
Achievements:
Tier 1:
GSL 2015 S1 - 2nd
GSL Global Championship - 2nd
IEM Taipei - Top 4
WCG KR 2013 - 1st
Tier 2:
HSC X - 1st
DH Tours - 1st
Tier 3:
MSI Beatit - 2nd
MSI 2015 - Top 4
RB NY - 1st
IEM Shenzhen 2015 - 2nd
Tier 4:
WCG 2013 - 3rd
After having a fulfilling career on eSF in WoL, PartinG tied his hand at joining the most prestigious team in the world: SKT. And with it he gained the famous Korean training regime, which strangely didn’t seem to improve his results or skills relative to his peers from 2013-2014. He was a Proleague Star (not the Ace, but a highly skilled player that had created multiple antics that the fans loved), but as renewal started to come up nearing the end of 2014, he decided to leave. In his own words, "I was raised in the wild to be an ESF animal, not to be stuck in KeSPA Zoo.”
In terms of results this would lead to some of the best results of his career as he got top placings in the international circuit as well as achieved second in the first season of GSL in 2015. Perhaps the most astonishing result he had was his insane PvT win record against Terrans in 2015 going 79.19% in maps (137-36) and 86.5% in series (58-9). While PartinG never got that massive win he always wanted in Korea, he can rest easy knowing that he was the greatest PvT player in HotS and SC2 history and the likelihood of anyone passing him is almost nil.
Difference between PartinG and Soulkey:
While Soulkey had a higher peak consistency in 2013, PartinG’s overall consistency over the 3 years is one of the highest of any pro gamer. Add in the fact he did it against more top players on the way to more relevant results, and he clearly edges out Soulkey.
#11 | Classic
Achivements:
Tier 1:
GSL S2 2014 - 1st
KeSPA Cup 2014 - Top 4
Blizzcon 2014 - Top 4
SSL S2 2015 - 1st
Blizzcon 2015 - Top 4
Tier 3:
IEM Shenzhen 2015 - 1st
HotS was very much the Protoss edition of SC2. When the KeSPA players switched over from BW to SC2, the majority of top tier Championship level players were Protoss. In SC2 that created a new age not too dissimilar from the Six Dragons of BW. In SC2 they were: PartinG, Rain, sOs, Zest, herO and Classic. Among the six, Classic gets the least respect. He has won two starleagues, has had top placings in other tier 1 events and despite IEM Shenzhen 2015 being a weaker event, the path he had to take to win that championship was one of the hardest possible (He beat Rain, Losira, herO and PartinG. The only player who beat him was Snute). Yet despite that we are often told he is the forgotten Champion and the one who gets the least fanfare among the top Protoss of Korea.
If I had to guess it is both by circumstance and his playstyle. PartinG is the most charismatic Korean in SC2’s history, Zest takes gravure photos, herO’s smiles makes SC2 fans weak in the knees, Rain solved PvP in 2012 forever gaining the eternal gratitude of every SC2 fan everywhere, sOs plays the craziest style of Protoss and is one of the games clutchest players. Classic? He has a chin.
In addition to that is his playstyle. Classic is a chameleon. Among all top Protoss players, he has the most variety of builds and styles. He can play anything from long macro games to timings, all-ins and crazy cheese. And he does all of them with clean, solid precision but not quite to the spectacular levels of the other 5 dragons. The difference though is that the other 5 are specialized players; they are the best at what they do. Rain mixes cheese in, but he was the best at safe standard play aiming for max army engagements. PartinG has the best micro. Zest is the the best at refinement of builds and positioning. herO is the best at perfecting one build per matchup and adapting his playstyle against his opponents over multiple games and series. sOs is the best at being crazy.
Classic doesn’t have a specialty, but what he does have is the fact that he is probably the second or third best in every one of the categories all across the board. His safe standard play, his control, his positioning, his adaptation, his cheese are all comparable to the best of the best in each field. In a way Classic may be the most dangerous Protoss of them all.
Difference between Classic and PartinG:
Classic had a higher peak both in 2014 and 2015 and while PartinG had one additional year of being a top player in 2013, that wasn’t enough to make up the difference between Classic’s and PartinG’s results.
yeah I'm also curious to see who's at the top 10 that puts Classic at only #11 But to guess I'd say Life, Innovation, Zest, herO, soO, sOs, Maru, TaeJa..... maybe Polt?
On February 25 2016 06:34 Shellshock wrote: I'm interested to see what keeps Classic at just 11 with 2x Korean starleague champ and 5 minimum top 4 finishes
Not enough foreign tournaments won is my guess, based on a previous conversation stuchiu and I had on the topic.
Zest, sOs, Rain, herO, Maru, INnoVation, Taeja, soO, Life. Who am I missing, Polt?
On February 25 2016 06:43 movac wrote: yeah I'm also curious to see who's at the top 10 that puts Classic at only #11 But to guess I'd say Life, Innovation, Zest, herO, soO, sOs, Maru, TaeJa..... maybe Polt?
Add Rain to that list.
Classic could have been in the top 10, but 11 is understandable and fair in my opinion.
On February 25 2016 06:34 Shellshock wrote: I'm interested to see what keeps Classic at just 11 with 2x Korean starleague champ and 5 minimum top 4 finishes
Another reason Classic is so underrated imo is because he's on SKT. It's easy to be overshadowed on a team that is so stacked. If he would be the undeniable ace for a team like herO for CJ or Maru for Jin Air he would get much more praise
On February 25 2016 06:43 movac wrote: yeah I'm also curious to see who's at the top 10 that puts Classic at only #11 But to guess I'd say Life, Innovation, Zest, herO, soO, sOs, Maru, TaeJa..... maybe Polt?
Add Rain to that list.
Classic could have been in the top 10, but 11 is understandable and fair in my opinion.
I don't think Rain has better results than Classic. But stuchio seems to be a fan of Rain so I wouldn't be to surprised if he ends up in the top 10.
On February 25 2016 07:04 Charoisaur wrote: Another reason Classic is so underrated imo is because he's on SKT. It's easy to be overshadowed on a team that is so stacked. If he would be the undeniable ace for a team like herO for CJ or Maru for Jin Air he would get much more praise
Agree with that. Classic has always been a really good SPL player and had one of the best winrates last season. Problem is he only played one ace match.
On February 25 2016 06:43 movac wrote: yeah I'm also curious to see who's at the top 10 that puts Classic at only #11 But to guess I'd say Life, Innovation, Zest, herO, soO, sOs, Maru, TaeJa..... maybe Polt?
Add Rain to that list.
Classic could have been in the top 10, but 11 is understandable and fair in my opinion.
I don't think Rain has better results than Classic. But stuchio seems to be a fan of Rain so I wouldn't be to surprised if he ends up in the top 10.
It's definitly debatable if Classic should be placed higher or not. I would be okay if he would have been in the top 10. But Rain had a better 2013 and early 2014. In 2014 Classic won Season 2 but disappointed in Season 3. 2015 is quite even i'd say.
sOs Zest TaeJa Life Inno herO soO Maru Rain and Polt...but in what order...
10. Inno 9. sOs 8. soO 7. Rain 6. Maru 5. herO 4. Polt 3. Zest 2. TaeJa 1. Life
is my guess
On February 25 2016 07:09 stuchiu wrote: As a spectator, I enjoy watching Classic more than any other top Protoss except sOs or Zest or I suppose peak Parting.
fair enough, I would agree outside of the Zest part...
On February 25 2016 06:43 movac wrote: yeah I'm also curious to see who's at the top 10 that puts Classic at only #11 But to guess I'd say Life, Innovation, Zest, herO, soO, sOs, Maru, TaeJa..... maybe Polt?
Add Rain to that list.
Classic could have been in the top 10, but 11 is understandable and fair in my opinion.
I don't think Rain has better results than Classic. But stuchio seems to be a fan of Rain so I wouldn't be to surprised if he ends up in the top 10.
As much as I love Rain, I think Classic deserves a better ranking than Rain overall in HotS : 2 Blizzcon semis, 2 KR titles and a very hard IEM. Plus I think his titles were won against better opposition and that Classic earns far more style points than Rain in HotS. Rain's style in WoL was very recognizable, he mixed it up a lot more in HotS and wasn't particularly recognizable anymore. Classic had a strong stylistic identity and regularly pulled off some really funky moves.
On February 25 2016 06:54 ejozl wrote: hmm too lazy to check liquipedia, but I wonder who wins HotS, Taeja or Life?
Someone who over 3 years managed a single Ro16 finish between all Korean leagues, and made no contributions to Proleague, should not under any circumstance in the universe be top 3, never mind top 1.
Re the six dragons comment, if youre talking about the period you really need to include Dear as a 7th. He peaked early but it was a high peak, at least as high as parting ever was and probably rain in hots (who did a lot better in wol)
On February 25 2016 07:15 SpunXtain20 wrote: Re the six dragons comment, if youre talking about the period you really need to include Dear as a 7th. He peaked early but it was a high peak, at least as high as parting ever was and probably rain in hots (who did a lot better in wol)
yeah Dear's peak was short but incredibly high. It was a joy to see such high level Protoss play.
im croising my fingers to Snute. I know he have won fewer than BuyL or MMA but he was the best SwarmHost player. And if you talk about Heath of the Swarm you can skip the real SwarmHost.
On February 25 2016 06:54 ejozl wrote: hmm too lazy to check liquipedia, but I wonder who wins HotS, Taeja or Life?
Someone who over 3 years managed a single Ro16 finish between all Korean leagues, and made no contributions to Proleague, should not under any circumstance in the universe be top 3, never mind top 1.
I agree. Taeja accomplished next to nothing in the toughest (Korean) leagues of HotS. Definitely top Koreigner though.
On February 25 2016 06:54 ejozl wrote: hmm too lazy to check liquipedia, but I wonder who wins HotS, Taeja or Life?
Someone who over 3 years managed a single Ro16 finish between all Korean leagues, and made no contributions to Proleague, should not under any circumstance in the universe be top 3, never mind top 1.
I agree. Taeja accomplished next to nothing in the toughest (Korean) leagues of HotS. Definitely top Koreigner though.
Re the six dragons comment, if youre talking about the period you really need to include Dear as a 7th. He peaked early but it was a high peak, at least as high as parting ever was and probably rain in hots (who did a lot better in wol)
yeah haha, I remember that brief period where Dear figured out that if anyone tried to go mutas against him, he could just go kill them. swear I saw all his pvz games end like that
On February 25 2016 06:34 Shellshock wrote: I'm interested to see what keeps Classic at just 11 with 2x Korean starleague champ and 5 minimum top 4 finishes
Well, compare for yourselves Classic to some of the players who could end up on this list:
Classic - GSL & SSL champ, IEM champ, 3 add. top 4s (2 of those Blizzcon), good-strong SPL performance
Maru - 2x Starleague champ, double royal roader, 7 add. top 4 finishes, strong Proleague performance
Zest - Code S champ, GSL global champ, IEM WC, KeSPA Cup champ, 3 add. top 4 performances & strong SPL performance
Life - 6 premier wins, including a GSL and a Blizzcon, dual Blizzcon finals, 8 add. top 4s, meh in team leagues
INnoVation - 2x GSL champ, WCS season final winner, IEM win, a 3rd GSL finals & 8 add. top 4s, strong team league performance
herO - SSL champ, KeSPA Cup champ, 3x IEM champ, 6 add. top 4s, strong SPL performance
Rain - GSL champ, Hot6ix Cup champ, HSC champ, 5 add. top 4s, strong SPL performance
TaeJa - 8 premier wins, 8 add. top 4s (1 at Blizzcon), strong (non-SPL) team league performance
sOs - dual Blizzcon champ, IEM WC, MSI & Hot6ix Cup champ, 5 add. top 4s, strong SPL performance
Polt - 3x WCS champ, MLG champ, RB: Detroit champ, 7 add. top 4s
soO - 4 consecutive GSL finals, KeSPA Cup champ, 3 add. top 4s, good-strong SPL performance
Classic woulda been higher than 11 on my personal list tbh
On February 25 2016 06:34 Shellshock wrote: I'm interested to see what keeps Classic at just 11 with 2x Korean starleague champ and 5 minimum top 4 finishes
Well, compare for yourselves Classic to some of the players who could end up on this list:
Classic - GSL & SSL champ, IEM champ, 3 add. top 4s (2 of those Blizzcon), good-strong SPL performance Maru - 2x Starleague champ, double royal roader, 7 add. top 4 finishes, strong Proleague performance Zest - Code S champ, GSL global champ, IEM WC, KeSPA Cup champ, 3 add. top 4 performances & strong SPL performance Life - 6 premier wins, including a GSL and a Blizzcon, dual Blizzcon finals, 8 add. top 4s INnoVation - 2x GSL champ, WCS season final winner, IEM win, a 3rd GSL finals & 8 add. top 4s, strong team league performance herO - SSL champ, KeSPA Cup champ, 3x IEM champ, 6 add. top 4s, strong SPL performance Rain - GSL champ, Hot6ix Cup champ, HSC champ, 5 add. top 4s, strong SPL performance TaeJa - 8 premier wins, 8 add. top 4s (1 at Blizzcon), strong team league performance sOs - dual Blizzcon champ, IEM WC, MSI & Hot6ix Cup champ, 5 add. top 4s, strong SPL performance Polt - 3x WCS champ, MLG champ, RB: Detroit champ, 7 add. top 4s soO - 4 consecutive GSL finals, KeSPA Cup champ, 3 add. top 4s, good-strong SPL performance
Classic woulda been higher than 11 on my personal list tbh
yeah me too most definitely, but I can't wait to see stuchiu's stance on the subject
On February 25 2016 06:54 ejozl wrote: hmm too lazy to check liquipedia, but I wonder who wins HotS, Taeja or Life?
Someone who over 3 years managed a single Ro16 finish between all Korean leagues, and made no contributions to Proleague, should not under any circumstance in the universe be top 3, never mind top 1.
I agree. Taeja accomplished next to nothing in the toughest (Korean) leagues of HotS. Definitely top Koreigner though.
Pretty hard to achieve something in a league you don't compete in..
I never thought about the "Six Dragons of SC2", I like it
But what do we do with Dear? Can we leave him out because his peak was so so short? Also because if we include him it becomes 7 dragons and the fun is ruined
On February 25 2016 07:39 Silvana wrote: I never thought about the "Six Dragons of SC2", I like it
But what do we do with Dear? Can we leave him out because his peak was so so short? Also because if we include him it becomes 7 dragons and the fun is ruined
I would have put Classic in front of Rain personally (assuming Rain is in this and that there is not a surprise Hyun or Snute or somethings like that).
Also, WTF is that Soulkey photo! This is scary as shit, with is tinny back bend and the glasses he look like those freaky Xcom aliens that try to look like human.
On February 25 2016 07:45 Nakajin wrote: I would have put Classic in front of Rain personally (assuming Rain is in this and that there is not a surprise Hyun or Snute or somethings like that).
Also, WTF is that Soulkey photo! This is scary as shit, with is tinny back bend and the glasses he look like those freaky Xcom aliens that try to look like human.
ha ha now you say it the picture looks kinda strange indeed ^^
1. Life: GSL, Blizzcon, another blizzcon finals, won the first HotS tournament, an IEM, a DH; I don't think this one is debatable. 2. TaeJa: I guess people will never agree on this one but 8 premiers and A LOT of other top finishes are enough to put him at #2 IMO. and yes he beat some of the best players in the worlds to win his titles, has a winning record against soO, Zest, Life, INnoVation, sOs. 3. sOs: won 3 of the most important tournaments in HotS, when it matters he just is on another level. 4. INnoVation: Double GSL winner + another GSL final, a WCS season finals and looking completely unbeatable at times. 5. herO/Zest: this is dead even imo. Both have a starleague and 3-4 other tournament wins and a strong PL performance. Can't really decide on that one. 6. herO/Zest 7. soO: 4 gsl finals, DH finals, IEM finals, Kespa cup win. if he just performed better in finals he'd be WAY higher on the list. 8. Maru: Dual starleague wins and a boss in proleague. He does things nobody else can but his stubborness really made him win less than a player with his potential should. 9. Classic: Dual starleague wins, ro4 at two blizzcons, won a stacked IEM. 10. Polt: 3 WCS victories, an MLG and a red bull battlegrounds + his miracle run at IEM cologne. But unlike TaeJa he didn't really beat the best players in the world for his victories (except Rain and classic at that IEM of course)
People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote: People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
In addition to that many of the players some people would rate ahead of TaeJa had a lot of their success from foreign tournaments themselves. 4 of sOs 5 tournament victories were foreign tournaments and in terms of difficulty the blizzcons weren't much more difficult than DH Bucharest, DH Winter or IEM Shenzhen. herO had 3 out of his 5 tournament wins from foreign tournaments. Even Life has except his 1 GSL victory not much results in korea.
On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote: People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
In addition to that many of the players some people would rate ahead of TaeJa had a lot of their success from foreign tournaments themselves. 4 of sOs 5 tournament victories were foreign tournaments and in terms of difficulty the blizzcons weren't much more difficult than DH Bucharest, DH Winter or IEM Shenzhen. herO had 3 out of his 5 tournament wins from foreign tournaments. Even Life has except his 1 GSL victory not much results in korea.
Taeja has a winning record against a lot of the top players.
On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote: People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
sure Taeja did look ok vs protoss at the time. But during that period the only Terran in Korea winning and performing in proleague + individual leagues consistently was Maru. Taeja mostly dominated the foreign scene, where as Maru was facing the likes of herO/PartinG/Zest/Classic on a far regular basis. If you throw Taeja in there, Polt deserves a massive mention as well. He kinda invented the whole Nexus sniping way of playing TvP during the Blink Era. I don't think I'll ever forget how epic the series between him and Classic/Rain were at IEM Cologne.
On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote: People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
In addition to that many of the players some people would rate ahead of TaeJa had a lot of their success from foreign tournaments themselves. 4 of sOs 5 tournament victories were foreign tournaments and in terms of difficulty the blizzcons weren't much more difficult than DH Bucharest, DH Winter or IEM Shenzhen. herO had 3 out of his 5 tournament wins from foreign tournaments. Even Life has except his 1 GSL victory not much results in korea.
Taeja has a winning record against a lot of the top players.
mostly in sprint tournaments though. He never did all that well in WCS/GSL. He always performed really well at weekend tournaments though.
On February 25 2016 07:09 stuchiu wrote: As a spectator, I enjoy watching Classic more than any other top Protoss except sOs or Zest or I suppose peak Parting.
fair enough, I would agree outside of the Zest part...
No no no no no! Two times BlizzCon champion cannot be no. 9!
I think ByuL narrowly deserves #14 over Bomber (and no it's not just because I'm a ByuL fanboy. I love Bomber too!).
Bomber's success lasted much longer, yes, but I think ByuL's shorter streak of success still beats him. ByuL had much more adverse conditions in 2015 than Bomber ever did. Bomber had success during the dreaded 2014 Blink Era, but he primarily did so in WCS AM where the hammer of Protoss was much softer.
ByuL exclusively went up against the best of the best post-SH patch. While not as imbalanced as some eras, it was definitely the most unfavorable for Zerg in HotS. Not only that, he did so while juggling dual starleagues, Kespa Cups, and having to serve as a major pillar in CJ's SPL success what with playing in nearly 100% of their matches.
==
Aside from that I'd rank PartinG over Classic. PartinG's longevity as a top-tier Protoss is inspiring and he consistently had awful bracket luck in most of his starleague runs.
==
My guess from here on out:
10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Taeja (might be lower due to doing next to nothing in 2015) 7. herO 6. Maru 5.soO 4.Zest 3.sOs 2.Bogus 1. Life
On February 25 2016 09:19 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Aside from that I'd rank PartinG over Classic. PartinG's longevity as a top-tier Protoss is inspiring and he consistently had awful bracket luck in most of his starleague runs.
I'm the biggest PartinG fanboy there is and even I dont think he can compete with dual starleague wins, dual ro4 at blizzcon and an IEM victory.
On February 25 2016 07:50 Charoisaur wrote: 1. Life: GSL, Blizzcon, another blizzcon finals, won the first HotS tournament, an IEM, a DH; I don't think this one is debatable. 2. TaeJa: I guess people will never agree on this one but 8 premiers and A LOT of other top finishes are enough to put him at #2 IMO. and yes he beat some of the best players in the worlds to win his titles, has a winning record against soO, Zest, Life, INnoVation, sOs. 3. sOs: won 3 of the most important tournaments in HotS, when it matters he just is on another level. 4. INnoVation: Double GSL winner + another GSL final, a WCS season finals and looking completely unbeatable at times. 5. herO/Zest: this is dead even imo. Both have a starleague and 3-4 other tournament wins and a strong PL performance. Can't really decide on that one. 6. herO/Zest 7. soO: 4 gsl finals, DH finals, IEM finals, Kespa cup win. if he just performed better in finals he'd be WAY higher on the list. 8. Maru: Dual starleague wins and a boss in proleague. He does things nobody else can but his stubborness really made him win less than a player with his potential should. 9. Classic: Dual starleague wins, ro4 at two blizzcons, won a stacked IEM. 10. Polt: 3 WCS victories, an MLG and a red bull battlegrounds + his miracle run at IEM cologne. But unlike TaeJa he didn't really beat the best players in the world for his victories (except Rain and classic at that IEM of course)
Reasoning: I feel like Innovation has a lock on 1. Sure 2015 wasn't great, but for most of HoTS he was the embodiment of HoTS Terran. He played that epic game against Taeja on Newkirk Precinct to imprint his memory on HoTS forever. He was in the first GSL HoTS final, he was in the last HoTS GSL final. He is the champion of HoTS in my eyes.
SoS may not have placed highly in GOAT, and rightfully so, but 2 Blizzcon championships and IEM World Champion!? Anything less than top 3 would be dissapointing in my eyes. I mean say what you want, the dude fucking made it when it counted.
Life performed well and his Blizzcon championship gives him the edge over Zest but overall, he's #1 or #2 on the GOAT because for about four years he's been one of the best players in the world. It's about consistency. He did well in HoTS to say the least, but I think Innovation and SoS performed better than he did.
Zest performed extremely well but for myself (and I know I'm in the minority here) he never had that coronation that Innovation had by winning that WCS Season Final (After losing 3-4 to Soulkey a week or two earlier), that Life had through his Blizzcon win, that SoS had by ripping the final HoTS Blizzcon trophy from Life's cold dead hands.
Does Soo need an explanation? Consistent, definitely earned his place in top 5. But not enough first places to beat any of the top 4.
Edit: Miniwheats gets it.
My guess from here on out:
10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Taeja (might be lower due to doing next to nothing in 2015) 7. herO 6. Maru 5.soO 4.Zest 3.sOs 2.Bogus 1. Life
I don't mind Life over Innovation, I could absolutely see it either way... In fact... Yeah I suppose you're right results wise. The two blizzcon finals really give Life the edge I suppose. Also, I'm willing to concede that yeah, sOs makes more sense at 3 than 2.
Agreed on the rest of the entire top 10 list.
Edit: Cricketer, my beloved fellow HuK fan... Your list is crazy. Inno and SoS at 10 and 9? No way bud.
Further:
On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote: People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
No. Always two there were. From arms weak with shoulder pain MVP threw the torch to innovation, his to hold high and holy hell, high it was held by him. Taeja's championing of the Terran race was split over both WoL and HoTS. In WoL MVP was the Terran King, in HoTS it was Innovation. Taeja was secondary to them.
As long as sOs is rank 2 or 3, I like the list. Unfortunately, he cannot be no. 1 because of the lack of GSL / SSL success in Korea, but he is THE great innovator and creative player. His won against anyone when it mattered did not have any competition.
Whats really important to take into consideration and I hope, but doubt stuchiu did is the balance of the game.
HotS was imbalanced for teh vast majority fo the time.
Early terrans were OP with hellbats. After that toss were broken with blink and awfull maps like heavy rain, yeonsu, deadlus point etc.... And zerg were also insanely favored vs T after the mine nerf, then in the end, terrans were still weaker judjing by premier tournaments finals representation.
That changes a lot, since Maru semi finals in GSL when only 3 terrans were in code S is worth almost a win IMO, where sOs vs herO in IEM final was just a blink festival, and that win is way less impressive since only 1.5 race were playable at that time
Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL #2 SSL #3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
On February 25 2016 10:51 Ensiferum8 wrote: Whats really important to take into consideration and I hope, but doubt stuchiu did is the balance of the game.
HotS was imbalanced for teh vast majority fo the time.
Early terrans were OP with hellbats. After that toss were broken with blink and awfull maps like heavy rain, yeonsu, deadlus point etc.... And zerg were also insanely favored vs T after the mine nerf, then in the end, terrans were still weaker judjing by premier tournaments finals representation.
That changes a lot, since Maru semi finals in GSL when only 3 terrans were in code S is worth almost a win IMO, where sOs vs herO in IEM final was just a blink festival, and that win is way less impressive since only 1.5 race were playable at that time
In all his former rankings he did take that into account
On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote: Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL #2 SSL #3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO #2 sOs #3 Life
but thats just my opnion..........
It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
Looking forward to seeing the entire rankings! #15-11 seem fine. Classic was the only one who at first glance felt noticeably too low (Bomber maybe slightly too high), but after contemplation was acceptable. And there's not much importance in my estimation between #9 or 10, versus being #11 or #12. It's only the top five or so that people will generally remember looking back as the greatest of HOTS. Everyone else will just be considered super good. As seen in how we collectively recall Flash and Jaedong being the gods of BW during the golden era. Followed in some order (which isn't of importance) by Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, and Jangbi, all of whom are legends in their own right.
Agree w/ the overwhelming consensus here that the top 3 is some order of: Life, Inno, sOs
Seems pretty clear the 2nd tier right behind is some order of: Maru, Zest
Followed very, very closely by some order of: herO, soO
*The order of Taeja, Rain, Classic, and PartinG in the 3rd tier is mostly irrelevant to me. As I feel they are all very historically noteworthy but decidedly below the aforementioned seven. Polt is extremely memorable, but clearly below this group and would be outside my top ten.
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
On February 25 2016 08:29 Nightwishone wrote: People who were not around in the WOL and HOTS eras cannot understand... There were times in which terran couldn't win shit, zergs dominated, and the only one who was still able to win - not only that - look comfortable and even unbeatable was TaeJa himself.
In addition to that many of the players some people would rate ahead of TaeJa had a lot of their success from foreign tournaments themselves. 4 of sOs 5 tournament victories were foreign tournaments and in terms of difficulty the blizzcons weren't much more difficult than DH Bucharest, DH Winter or IEM Shenzhen. herO had 3 out of his 5 tournament wins from foreign tournaments. Even Life has except his 1 GSL victory not much results in korea.
I would not say a blizzcon win, the tournament that everyone craves and practices for, was as difficult as dh or iem; heck, I would even say that blizzcon is as premier or more than a gsl. Gsl and ssl were the elitest tournament in long preparation type whilst blizzcon is the elitest tournamemt in a short prep type
On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote: Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL #2 SSL #3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO #2 sOs #3 Life
but thats just my opnion..........
It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples
On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote: Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL #2 SSL #3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO #2 sOs #3 Life
but thats just my opnion..........
It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples
because foreigners scrubs can go to blizzcon because of the awfull WCS point system. Remember last Blizzcon?
we had stuff like lilbow when people like stats, TY, soO were not there.
Dont get fool by the prize pool, GSL/SSL is way harder
On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote: Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL #2 SSL #3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO #2 sOs #3 Life
but thats just my opnion..........
It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples
Yes, blizzcon should be at the top. My comparison between taejas and sOs runs was only directed at the people who say TaeJa runs weren't impressive because they were against lesser competition while some of his runs weren't easier then sOs run, so by their logic sOs didn't achieve much either. Not that I think a Dreamhack victory should count as much as a blizzcon.
On February 25 2016 10:58 Ensiferum8 wrote: Also, i would defenitly not rank Life #1. Not only most of his wins were not impressive (he just all ins all the time without being able to play macro most of the time).
But tbh, GSL or SSL is harder to win than blizzcon.
I mean, in blizzcon, you have players like Polt, Hydra, Hyun, Lilbow, San, etc.... And with all due respect, these players are way weaker than 90% of GSL round of 16 or round of 8 player.
In terms of importance, it should be : #1 GSL #2 SSL #3 Blizzcon
And considering terrans were the weakest race, statistically, for the vast majority of HotS, i would put
#1 INNO #2 sOs #3 Life
but thats just my opnion..........
It's not only about difficulty of winning tournaments but also about prestige. otherwise a Kespa cup or a Hot6ix cup would count as much as a GSL.
Then it terms of prestige, blizzcon should be at the top right? I still don’t get why blizzcon is less important then gsl or ssl. They are different types of tournaments; you cant compare them like apples to apples
because foreigners scrubs can go to blizzcon because of the awfull WCS point system. Remember last Blizzcon?
we had stuff like lilbow when people like stats, TY, soO were not there.
Dont get fool by the prize pool, GSL/SSL is way harder
Discounting Blizzcon 2015 purely because of Lilbow is a bit silly. You could argue the same for aLive in 2013, or jjakji in 2014, or even (heresy) Mvp in 2013 if you're going to criticise the competition purely for players' form at that actual tournament.
Blizzcon has never been about finding the best player in the world, nor was it the be-all and end-all of The Top 16 Players in the World. Obviously there's a healthy degree of overlap, but in all 3 years there were certainly players who missed out who I'd rank higher than ones who got in.
Having said that, it's still a pretty fucking stacked tournament. Yes, there's no preparation work, aside from Ro.16 / Ro.8 I guess, but go find me a GSL or SSL where the Ro.16 consists only of the top 16 in the world. It just doesn't happen, ever, whether due to seeding or upsets.
It's the same weekender / starleague argument that gets brought up when TaeJa inevitably (and deservedly) places highly in these rankings. They're different disciplines, and to demand that players excel in both formats essentially asks them to be Mvp or Life. Not matching up to that level is hardly the biggest criticism of a player.
In terms of how much a tournament should count it's imo: 1. Blizzcon 2. GSL/SSL 3. IEM Katowice/DH Winter 4. Kespa Cup/Hot6ix cup 5. Normal IEMs and DHs 6. Some other tournaments like HSC or RBB 7. Small online cups 8. WCS Premier
On February 25 2016 13:35 Charoisaur wrote: In terms of how much a tournament should count it's imo: 1. Blizzcon 2. GSL/SSL 3. IEM Katowice/DH Winter 4. Kespa Cup/Hot6ix cup 5. Normal IEMs and DHs 6. Some other tournaments like HSC or RBB 7. Small online cups 8. WCS Premier
So you'd take some online cup over WCS NA / EU in 2013/14? :/
On February 25 2016 13:35 Charoisaur wrote: In terms of how much a tournament should count it's imo: 1. Blizzcon 2. GSL/SSL 3. IEM Katowice/DH Winter 4. Kespa Cup/Hot6ix cup 5. Normal IEMs and DHs 6. Some other tournaments like HSC or RBB 7. Small online cups 8. WCS Premier
So you'd take some online cup over WCS NA / EU in 2013/14? :/
No, I meant just WCS Premier 2015. Totally forgot about WCS NA/EU I think I'd rate those at the same level as IEM/DH (normal ones)
oh, and why the f*** is Classic only 11th?? 2 Korean titles, 2 semis at blizzcon, overall very solid toss. I dare you if Rain is ahead of him with his single GSL title. I think the Classic anti-hype is really undeserved
On February 25 2016 17:01 Dungeontay wrote: oh, and why the f*** is Classic only 11th?? 2 Korean titles, 2 semis at blizzcon, overall very solid toss. I dare you if Rain is ahead of him with his single GSL title. I think the Classic anti-hype is really undeserved
I guess it's because he's never really stood out as the clear best Protoss in the world, as Zest/Rain etc have. He has been really good for quite some time now, but I've never thought of him as unbeatable at any point.
Will be interested to see who is ranked above him though.
You only have to beat those players in front of you, but stuichu focuses a lot on who you beat to get to a place in a tournament. So it explains certain things that crop up.
Polt is the interesting one. It's easy to forget that he figured out how to beat Top Tier Protoss during the Blink Era. Those games were awesome to watch, too!
On February 25 2016 17:01 Dungeontay wrote: oh, and why the f*** is Classic only 11th?? 2 Korean titles, 2 semis at blizzcon, overall very solid toss. I dare you if Rain is ahead of him with his single GSL title. I think the Classic anti-hype is really undeserved
- GSL victory - OSL runner-up - Hotsix Cup victory - HSC victory - SSL ro4 - 2nd in IEM - GSL 2014 ro4 - Better SPL record in both seasons - full year more of being a top-tier Protoss
Taeja, herO, Maru, Zest, sOs, soO, Life, and Bogus also easily beat him. Yes even Taeja
I guessed that Polt has to be in the top 10 since he hasn't shown up yet (can't think of anyone else major that's missing), but I don't think I'd agree with placing him that high.
On February 25 2016 07:04 Charoisaur wrote: Another reason Classic is so underrated imo is because he's on SKT. It's easy to be overshadowed on a team that is so stacked. If he would be the undeniable ace for a team like herO for CJ or Maru for Jin Air he would get much more praise
Agree with that. Classic has always been a really good SPL player and had one of the best winrates last season. Problem is he only played one ace match.
interestingly there was only one player on SKT who played 2 ace matches last year (i think it was dark and he was also the only one on SKT to lose an ace match :D )
On February 25 2016 07:04 Charoisaur wrote: Another reason Classic is so underrated imo is because he's on SKT. It's easy to be overshadowed on a team that is so stacked. If he would be the undeniable ace for a team like herO for CJ or Maru for Jin Air he would get much more praise
Agree with that. Classic has always been a really good SPL player and had one of the best winrates last season. Problem is he only played one ace match.
interestingly there was only one player on SKT who played 2 ace matches last year (i think it was dark and he was also the only one on SKT to lose an ace match :D )
Well they hardly ever lost 2 sets to start with tbf IIRC SKT do it on team house form, and whoever's doing the best that week gets sent out (can't remember where I read / heard it)
sOs should definitely get first place here IMO. 2 out of 3 blizzcon world championships AND another 100k tournament in IEM Katowice, + a tournament in Korea. I love TaeJa, but these wins are simply the best out of all HotS
On February 25 2016 07:04 Charoisaur wrote: Another reason Classic is so underrated imo is because he's on SKT. It's easy to be overshadowed on a team that is so stacked. If he would be the undeniable ace for a team like herO for CJ or Maru for Jin Air he would get much more praise
Agree with that. Classic has always been a really good SPL player and had one of the best winrates last season. Problem is he only played one ace match.
interestingly there was only one player on SKT who played 2 ace matches last year (i think it was dark and he was also the only one on SKT to lose an ace match :D )
Well they hardly ever lost 2 sets to start with tbf IIRC SKT do it on team house form, and whoever's doing the best that week gets sent out (can't remember where I read / heard it)
yeah even prime managed to win 2 sets one more time than SKT lost 2 sets. however they do it, it seems to work out rather well
Definitely like the part on Classic. It's true he's not been really flashy, but that guy can do anything as protoss. I've been a fan since that game against Rain I think on Neo Planet S where he'd combine great max army engagment just outside the base at 6 o'clock, positioning, flanking with that warp prism full of zealots, and great micro. The combination of these was cool to watch.
Also, small mistake I think:
Difference between Bomber and ByuL:
Bomber’s overall results isn’t too different from MMA except Bomber had an additional WCS Season 2 finals victory as well as his Red Bull Washington victory which was filled with strong players. Bomber just hit a higher peak overall than MMA and that along with the length of time he was active as one of the best players in HotS (2 years to ByuL’s half a year) was enough to put him over ByuL.
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He doesn't deserve to be ranked ahead of ByuL
I'd say he does. He was way, way, way ahead of ByuL in 2013 and 2014. To the point where I don't think ByuL's 2015 is enough to catch up. If ByuL had won a single one of those tournaments definitely. But the way it is, Bomber just had way more success in HotS overall and his skill peaks were actually pretty high. Like, at RB: Washington he 4-0'd Cure who was a GSL semifinalist at the time.
Also honorable mentions to Jaedong for placing 2nd in about 1000 events in HotS.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
I think Life and sOs are insanely close in HotS. But sOs should be #1 just because of those 2 Blizzcon wins. I mean in this world of inconsistence and volatiliy how likely was it that a player as unpredictable as sOs would win the most important title two times out of three ? It's just sheer class. A no-brainer for me.
On February 25 2016 21:08 [PkF] Wire wrote: I think Life and sOs are insanely close in HotS. But sOs should be #1 just because of those 2 Blizzcon wins. I mean in this world of inconsistence and volatiliy how likely was it that a player as unpredictable as sOs would win the most important title two times out of three ? It's just sheer class. A no-brainer for me.
Depends on how big value these wins will have. Life has plenty of 2nd places(or top4) from other tournaments, he was pretty active.
Also how big value reverse all-kill of KT has Mwahahahaha
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
WCG KR 2013 - 1st
Uhh, KR stands for Korea, right?
Technically, that's just a qualifier though. No prize money, only a WCG seed. The only thing that elevates it from an IEM KR qualifier is that it was played offline. Which honestly kinda makes it on par with a strong bracket in SSL qualifiers. So yeah, PartinG's only win in KR tournaments in HotS was just a difficult a qualifier bracket.
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
WCG KR 2013 - 1st
Uhh, KR stands for Korea, right?
Technically, that's just a qualifier though. No prize money, only a WCG seed. The only thing that elevates it from an IEM KR qualifier is that it was played offline. Which honestly kinda makes it on par with a really strong bracket in SSL qualifiers.
It's a 1st place But yes, Parting was consistent, but never won anything big & important. So this 11th(?) place suits him IMO well. He was an important person for HotS, created Parting award (and then broke the series, !@#!$!$!@) He should be in the top15
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
WCG KR 2013 - 1st
Uhh, KR stands for Korea, right?
Technically, that's just a qualifier though. No prize money, only a WCG seed. The only thing that elevates it from an IEM KR qualifier is that it was played offline. Which honestly kinda makes it on par with a really strong bracket in SSL qualifiers.
It's a 1st place But yes, Parting was consistent, but never won anything big & important. So this 11th(?) place suits him IMO well. He was an important person for HotS, created Parting award (and then broke the series, !@#!$!$!@) He should be in the top15
Yeah he's top 15 for sure, whether you want to count him as 12th like stuchiu, higher, or lower doesn't really matter much. But he can't really hit top 3 for HotS.
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
WCG KR 2013 - 1st
Uhh, KR stands for Korea, right?
Technically, that's just a qualifier though. No prize money, only a WCG seed. The only thing that elevates it from an IEM KR qualifier is that it was played offline. Which honestly kinda makes it on par with a really strong bracket in SSL qualifiers.
It's a 1st place But yes, Parting was consistent, but never won anything big & important. So this 11th(?) place suits him IMO well. He was an important person for HotS, created Parting award (and then broke the series, !@#!$!$!@) He should be in the top15
Yeah he's top 15 for sure, whether you want to count him as 12th like stuchiu, higher, or lower doesn't really matter much. But he can't really hit top 3.
Oh, on that point I agree completely. I made bold the part I was pointing out
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
WCG KR 2013 - 1st
Uhh, KR stands for Korea, right?
Technically, that's just a qualifier though. No prize money, only a WCG seed. The only thing that elevates it from an IEM KR qualifier is that it was played offline. Which honestly kinda makes it on par with a really strong bracket in SSL qualifiers.
It's a 1st place But yes, Parting was consistent, but never won anything big & important. So this 11th(?) place suits him IMO well. He was an important person for HotS, created Parting award (and then broke the series, !@#!$!$!@) He should be in the top15
Yeah he's top 15 for sure, whether you want to count him as 12th like stuchiu, higher, or lower doesn't really matter much. But he can't really hit top 3.
Oh, on that point I agree completely. I made bold the part I was pointing out
Tbh that WCG KR win is no more impressive than Solar winning his S2SL qualifier bracket this season. I don't think 5 years from now that's gonna be listed as a tier 1 achievement though. That's why for me despite that 1st place it's still "PartinG hasn't won anything in Korea". Certainly hasn't won anything big :/
On February 25 2016 19:52 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He doesn't deserve to be ranked ahead of ByuL
I'd say he does. He was way, way, way ahead of ByuL in 2013 and 2014. To the point where I don't think ByuL's 2015 is enough to catch up. If ByuL had won a single one of those tournaments definitely. But the way it is, Bomber just had way more success in HotS overall and his skill peaks were actually pretty high. Like, at RB: Washington he 4-0'd Cure who was a GSL semifinalist at the time.
Also honorable mentions to Jaedong for placing 2nd in about 1000 events in HotS.
So the difference between 2nd and 1st in GSL/SSL/Kespa Cup is the difference between #14 and #15? In that case I don't think Bomber had "way more success" at all then.
I guess I'll agree to disagree in that I actually do think ByuL's 6 or so month peak of rigid top-tier play in 2015 still beats Bomber's sporadic highs of 2013 and 2014.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
On February 25 2016 19:52 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He doesn't deserve to be ranked ahead of ByuL
I'd say he does. He was way, way, way ahead of ByuL in 2013 and 2014. To the point where I don't think ByuL's 2015 is enough to catch up. If ByuL had won a single one of those tournaments definitely. But the way it is, Bomber just had way more success in HotS overall and his skill peaks were actually pretty high. Like, at RB: Washington he 4-0'd Cure who was a GSL semifinalist at the time.
Also honorable mentions to Jaedong for placing 2nd in about 1000 events in HotS.
So the difference between 2nd and 1st in GSL/SSL/Kespa Cup is the difference between #14 and #15? In that case I don't think Bomber had "way more success" at all then.
In terms of tangible success - trophies, earnings - Bomber is miles ahead of ByuL in HotS. The only reason ByuL can be considered for this list at all is his 5-6 consecutive months at the top. And if he had won any of the tournaments he finished highly in during that time you could consider putting him above Bomber - and not just Bomber. But as it stands, while Bomber had less consecutive (arguably less overall) months at the top of Korean competition, when he was in top form he actually won stuff.
Take soO. soO is gonna end up higher on the list than Classic because he was the best Zerg in the world for 4 GSLs straight (~1 year). No other player will be able to match that consistency. But he'll still end up lower than players who weren't consistently as strong but won stuff when they were.
I get where you're coming from and I can totally see why you wouldn't agree with that evaluation of ByuL. But saying Bomber doesn't deserve to be ahead of ByuL is a bit disrespectful towards the author. He spent time researching this shit, after all, and arrived at the conclusion that, in line with his criteria, Bomber does deserve it.
On February 25 2016 19:43 ZAiNs wrote: Bomber doesn't belong on the list at all >_>.
He achieved quite a bit and he was pretty strong in 2013/2014, it's understandable for him to be on the list.
On February 25 2016 19:44 insitelol wrote: lolwhat parting is easily top 3
Not even close. He won 3 premier tournaments in HotS. He has no wins in Korea. His high peak skill level can't carry him past the fact that there's many players who just flatly won a lot more.
So... You mean TaeJa won't be in the Top 10 ?
TaeJa is different in that the amount of tournaments he won and placed highly in and his skill peaks are too obscenely high to not be top 10. He won more tournaments in HotS than anyone else who'll be on the list, and the truth is that he consistently beat top players to do it, not a bunch of scrubs. The comment was also about PartinG being top 3, not top 10.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
sOs has 4 big wins - Hot6 cup, Katowice, 2 Blizzcons. Innovation has 3 big wins - GSL15 S3, GSL14 S2, WCS13 Finals S1(over sOs BTW)
BTW GSL > Blizzcon is your subjective view. My view is different. There's no "proper" list in this matter. And if we are talking about consistency, then the #1 spot has to have Life who was beast whole HotS.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
In order to get in to blizzcon you have win atleast one gsl or ssl. Blizzcon is tournament of champions/killers with hunger of prestige. So blizzcon was harder when GSL and SSL
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
In order to get in to blizzcon you have win atleast one gsl or ssl.
This year you do, but last year you really didn't have to. Fantasy and Rogue had no top 4 finishes in any premier WCS event and both made the global finals. A bunch of players would have comfortably made it there even without their league wins. Zest basically only made it there because he won IEM Katowice. The Blizzcon champion finished top 4 in Korean events at most. That still didn't kill the overall player quality but regardless, I think last year it was easier to get to the global finals as a Korean.
And the problem with Blizzcon that will always persist - it takes into account an entire year of work from the players to qualify, but not their current form. The top 16 last year may have been the best players of the year as a whole, but not all of them were on form anymore. For me, that just takes away from Blizzcon in terms of prestige. Yeah you have to be consistent or peak really high to get there but the competition isn't immediately harder than GSL because of it, odds are there's player overlap aswell. Not to mention to win GSL starting in Code A, you have to win at the very least 22 games, against a huge potential variety of players. To win the global finals you have to win 14 this year.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
sOs has 4 big wins - Hot6 cup, Katowice, 2 Blizzcons. Innovation has 3 big wins - GSL15 S3, GSL14 S2, WCS13 Finals S1(over sOs BTW)
BTW GSL > Blizzcon is your subjective view. My view is different. There's no "proper" list in this matter. And if we are talking about consistency, then the #1 spot has to have Life who was beast whole HotS.
did you read the whole post or just looked at the list?
and also gsl is objectively more difficult to win than blizzcon.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
I like how you quote INno's WCS Finals win as a 'Korean tournament victory' while criticising sOs' Blizzcons All the WCS Season finals were much weaker tournaments than Blizzcon
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
I like how you quote INno's WCS Finals win as a 'Korean tournament victory' while criticising sOs' Blizzcons All the WCS Season finals were much weaker tournaments than Blizzcon
i like how you think a tournament that is played in korea isnt a korean tournament
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
I like how you quote INno's WCS Finals win as a 'Korean tournament victory' while criticising sOs' Blizzcons All the WCS Season finals were much weaker tournaments than Blizzcon
i like how you think a tournament that is played in korea isnt a korean tournament
You're trying to equate it to a starleague by bundling it in with his two GSLs. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency And I never said it wasn't a Korean tournament.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
I like how you quote INno's WCS Finals win as a 'Korean tournament victory' while criticising sOs' Blizzcons All the WCS Season finals were much weaker tournaments than Blizzcon
i like how you think a tournament that is played in korea isnt a korean tournament
You're trying to equate it to a starleague by bundling it in with his two GSLs. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency And I never said it wasn't a Korean tournament.
i didnt say that. thats just your interpretation of it.
i said he won 3 korean tournaments which is the objective truth.
and yes i do think a wcs finals victory is a tier below a starleague.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
sOs has 4 big wins - Hot6 cup, Katowice, 2 Blizzcons. Innovation has 3 big wins - GSL15 S3, GSL14 S2, WCS13 Finals S1(over sOs BTW)
BTW GSL > Blizzcon is your subjective view. My view is different. There's no "proper" list in this matter. And if we are talking about consistency, then the #1 spot has to have Life who was beast whole HotS.
did you read the whole post or just looked at the list?
and also gsl is objectively more difficult to win than blizzcon.
Come on, his peak was the highest in all of SC2 history. Granted, it was short, but he had "that aura", related to the "b" word, at least for a little while.
Byul had nothing to do on that list. Jaedong had more second places than him lol Never forget:
I have a feeling Taeja is going to rank quite high, at least Top 5. And that's nonsense, IMHO.
Yes, he won a lot of weekender tournaments. Perhapss that's where his priorities lie. He beats KeSPA Starleague winners in such tourneys, therefore he is better than them? Not necessarily so . I am quite confident that KeSPA players' priorities lie in SPL and Starleagues first. Which makes them less prepared, motivated and fresh for weekenders.
This whole 'Taeja-beating-top-players-in-weekenders' tournament is also skewed because he doesn't even get far in Starleagues for top KeSPA players to beat him there. Point is, you can't just give him higher weightage in his weekender wins simply because he beat an S-class player head-to-head, and yet ignore him losing to B-class player in Starleague which S-class player then beats.
Which is why Starleagues are always a safe yardstick for objective excellence - the consistency is there every season, as the top KR players there. Whereas weekenders are dependent on not only invites and qualifiers, but also availability and interest. And then you have to examine how 'stacked' the tournament is, to determine its subjective excellence. Nothing wrong with that, but somehow in the making of such power rankings, this subjective analysis tends to inflate the value of weekenders over Starleagues (simply because Taeja beat Starleague champions there yada yada). It's a bit like Yellow beating the likes of Boxer in special tournaments back in BW - except that no one would argue that Yellow had better results than Boxer in the greater scheme of things.
To me, 'stacked' weekenders are more closely at par with KeSPA Cup, and sit below Starleagues. And to me, Starleague is like a Grand Slam for SC (it just so happens because KR have all the top players, and all KR-based players are eligible for Starleagues), and even Blizzcon is more like the year-end Masters. If you haven't won a Starleague, you certainly don't belong in Top 5, maybe not even Top 10 (not that winning a Starleague puts you in Top 10 instantly, because repeat winners and sole winners with other tourney wins will always be higher than the one-hit-wonders ie the Snipers and Hewitts of the world ). And Taeja hasn't even had top finishes in Starleagues, for crying out loud! Life, Zest, Inno, sOs, soO and herO should all be comfortably placed above him in the final list, I hope.
Sorry for the rambling. Probably Taeja doesn't figure that high anyway, and I'm jumping the gun here. But it's not just about Teaja. It's also about how undervalued Starleagues are in the making of such power rankings. Classic as #11 is a big surprise. The guy has won 2 Starleagues and a monster in SPL!
That's pure BS and you know it. There are at least some proofs about round Earth. There's none proof about your "objective" statement.
Well if GSL is objectively harder, as you say so, then how it is possible that soO never won Blizzcon. He made 4 2nd places in a row and didn't win this easier tournament? Hmm, I wonder... Edit- soO also never made a 2nd place at Blizzcon
We are talking about 2 different types of tournament, you cannot compare which one is harder.
But whatever, you use such idiotic arguments, why should I try...
On February 25 2016 22:46 Elentos wrote: Take soO. soO is gonna end up higher on the list than Classic because he was the best Zerg in the world for 4 GSLs straight (~1 year). No other player will be able to match that consistency. But he'll still end up lower than players who weren't consistently as strong but won stuff when they were.
(Emphasis mine.)
This is a lot more debatable than you think. Right before Blizzcon, I did my own breakdown of who was the #1 player of HOTS. To do this I did a break down of all stats for INno, Life, Zest, soO, and Maru that I thought were relevant, with a keen eye to consistency.
(You might not want to look past the OP if you want to keep the identity of stuchiu's top 3 a secret.)
Maru participated in every single Korean premier event in HotS. soO and INno, the next highest, participated in 8/9.
If we then take their success at these premiers and divide it up by how many events they attended, to get their average placement, we arrive at:
Maru, on average, drops out in the Ro"10.3" INno, on average, 14.2 soO, 19.1 Life, 26.1 Zest, 36.7 (Zest attended less than half of the Korean premiers in HOTS)
And keep in mind that Zerg representation at premiers was very stable throughout HOTS, while Terrans went nearly extinct for a time. So INno and Maru getting consistently better premier results (spread out over all of HOTS) than soO (whose best results all fall into the same meta), despite whatever balance issues, is actually quite remarkable consistency and in my opinion is excellent basis for giving INnoVation #1 and Maru somewhere between #3 and #6.
My personal list would look something like
1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Maru 4. sOs 5. Zest - although he was a non-entity for a huge chunk of HOTS, his average result in the premiers he made it to is ludicrously high, 5.25 to Maru's 10.3. 6. soO 7. Classic 8. herO 9. Rain 10. Taeja 11. PartinG 12. Soulkey
Surprised so few are giving any weight to their Proleague role/results. For me, it was an important component of the equation. Yes SC2 is an entirely individual game at its core, but to discount the importance of participating in the absolute highest level team league seems shortsighted. And not just participate, but live in and train around the clock with your fellow teammates.
The importance of performing well in PL typically seems to to rival individual GSL/SSL results, and you can't discount how much harder it is to simultaneously prepare for both (compared to someone like Taeja or Polt) who can research almost solely for specific tournaments while having little game material of their own for others to study on a regular basis. To excel at both grueling formats is the true indicator for me of greatness.
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
the role/results each player had during the entirety of the HOTS era PL (specifically the 2014 and 2015 seasons when the game was much more fleshed out) was critical.
Maru: undisputed ace player for a constant playoff team, dominated PL for long stretches w/ insane win rates (albeit in a bad slump to end last season)
herO: undisputed ace player for a constant playoff team (although Byul became the 1A option), dominant at times, and visibly outclassed almost all opponents
Zest: undisputed ace player for a championship team (despite occasional losses to lesser opponents), dominant at times and was repeatedly sent out against the very best opposition
*sOs: a critical lineup regular for a constant playoff team, while fluctuating between dominating some rounds and having mediocre results in others. Went on one of the most dominant stretches ever between 1st and 2nd rounds of the season ending playoffs last year, defeated Zest on D1. Then reverse all-kill of Flash, TY, Zest, Stats to defeat KT on D2 to eliminate the defending champions. Then against CJ in semis, defeated Byul on D1, and sent JAGW to the grand finals after defeating herO and Byul on D2.
*Inno/soO: both were brought down to an extent by SKT being so dominant, but much of that dominance stemmed from both these core starting members being so good. Both received infrequent ace appearances (since SKT rarely challenged and fielded such a deep team). After SKT let go Rain, PartinG, Soulkey (and Fantasy) after falling to KT in 2014, many assumed a natural regression. Instead in came Inno who dominated right away, which coupled w/ the continued rise of Classic, the general dominance of soO, and the huge growth of Dark and Dream, created an unstoppable team that rolled to the championship in remarkable fashion.
*Life: the weakest PL player of my S class tier. Obviously his improvisational/adaptable play-style much better suited to the BO individual tournament format. Served as the ace player for Startale and carried a weak team to the R1 playoffs last season on multiple ace match wins. But largely disappointed upon joining KT mid round (when many assumed he would make them unbeatable), and by season ending playoff time, wasn't even in their core starting four. While having occasional PL success here and there, Life has never looked dominant/unbeatable on a weekly basis in the most challenging team league (against absolute top tier competition who study you and with coaching, craft a specific game-plan to snipe you on a single map), unlike the other six names on my list frequently have.
On February 25 2016 22:46 Elentos wrote: Take soO. soO is gonna end up higher on the list than Classic because he was the best Zerg in the world for 4 GSLs straight (~1 year). No other player will be able to match that consistency. But he'll still end up lower than players who weren't consistently as strong but won stuff when they were.
(Emphasis mine.)
This is a lot more debatable than you think. Right before Blizzcon, I did my own breakdown of who was the #1 player of HOTS. To do this I did a break down of all stats for INno, Life, Zest, soO, and Maru that I thought were relevant, with a keen eye to consistency.
(You might not want to look past the OP if you want to keep the identity of stuchiu's top 3 a secret.)
Maru participated in every single Korean premier event in HotS. soO and INno, the next highest, participated in 8/9.
If we then take their success at these premiers and divide it up by how many events they attended, to get their average placement, we arrive at:
Maru, on average, drops out in the Ro"10.3" INno, on average, 14.2 soO, 19.1 Life, 26.1 Zest, 36.7 (Zest attended less than half of the Korean premiers in HOTS)
And keep in mind that Zerg representation at premiers was very stable throughout HOTS, while Terrans went nearly extinct for a time. So INno and Maru getting consistently better premier results (spread out over all of HOTS) than soO (whose best results all fall into the same meta), despite whatever balance issues, is actually quite remarkable and in my opinion is excellent basis for giving INnoVation #1 and Maru somewhere between #3 and #6.
My personal list would look something like
1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Maru 4. sOs 5. Zest - although he was a non-entity for a huge chunk of HOTS, his average result in the premiers he made it to is ludicrously high, 5.25 to Maru's 10.3. 6. soO 7. Classic 8. herO 9. Rain 10. Taeja 11. PartinG 12. Soulkey
Interesting analysis. I'm fascinated particularly about Maru. He is consistently excellent, able to beat any player any given day, yet somehow always falls short at the R08 and RO4 stage. Maybe it's the luck of the draw, seeing how he's almost always beaten by the eventual champion. But still puts him at soO-level at most.
So as impressive his play is, I can't put myself to rank him Top 5 in HoTS. Pity we never saw him in weekenders. Maybe his raw skill would've thrived there. Still better than Taeja, though
On February 25 2016 22:46 Elentos wrote: Take soO. soO is gonna end up higher on the list than Classic because he was the best Zerg in the world for 4 GSLs straight (~1 year). No other player will be able to match that consistency. But he'll still end up lower than players who weren't consistently as strong but won stuff when they were.
(Emphasis mine.)
This is a lot more debatable than you think. Right before Blizzcon, I did my own breakdown of who was the #1 player of HOTS. To do this I did a break down of all stats for INno, Life, Zest, soO, and Maru that I thought were relevant, with a keen eye to consistency.
(You might not want to look past the OP if you want to keep the identity of stuchiu's top 3 a secret.)
Maru participated in every single Korean premier event in HotS. soO and INno, the next highest, participated in 8/9.
If we then take their success at these premiers and divide it up by how many events they attended, to get their average placement, we arrive at:
Maru, on average, drops out in the Ro"10.3" INno, on average, 14.2 soO, 19.1 Life, 26.1 Zest, 36.7 (Zest attended less than half of the Korean premiers in HOTS)
And keep in mind that Zerg representation at premiers was very stable throughout HOTS, while Terrans went nearly extinct for a time. So INno and Maru getting consistently better premier results (spread out over all of HOTS) than soO (whose best results all fall into the same meta), despite whatever balance issues, is actually quite remarkable and in my opinion is excellent basis for giving INnoVation #1 and Maru somewhere between #3 and #6.
My personal list would look something like
1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Maru 4. sOs 5. Zest - although he was a non-entity for a huge chunk of HOTS, his average result in the premiers he made it to is ludicrously high, 5.25 to Maru's 10.3. 6. soO 7. Classic 8. herO 9. Rain 10. Taeja 11. PartinG 12. Soulkey
Interesting analysis. I'm fascinated particularly about Maru. He is consistently excellent, able to beat any player any given day, yet somehow always falls short at the R08 and RO4 stage. Maybe it's the luck of the draw, seeing how he's almost always beaten by the eventual champion. But still puts him at soO-level at most.
So as impressive his play is, I can't put myself to rank him Top 5 in HoTS. Pity we never saw him in weekenders. Maybe his raw skill would've thrived there. Still better than Taeja, though
On February 25 2016 22:46 Elentos wrote: Take soO. soO is gonna end up higher on the list than Classic because he was the best Zerg in the world for 4 GSLs straight (~1 year). No other player will be able to match that consistency. But he'll still end up lower than players who weren't consistently as strong but won stuff when they were.
(Emphasis mine.)
This is a lot more debatable than you think. Right before Blizzcon, I did my own breakdown of who was the #1 player of HOTS. To do this I did a break down of all stats for INno, Life, Zest, soO, and Maru that I thought were relevant, with a keen eye to consistency.
(You might not want to look past the OP if you want to keep the identity of stuchiu's top 3 a secret.)
Maru participated in every single Korean premier event in HotS. soO and INno, the next highest, participated in 8/9.
If we then take their success at these premiers and divide it up by how many events they attended, to get their average placement, we arrive at:
Maru, on average, drops out in the Ro"10.3" INno, on average, 14.2 soO, 19.1 Life, 26.1 Zest, 36.7 (Zest attended less than half of the Korean premiers in HOTS)
And keep in mind that Zerg representation at premiers was very stable throughout HOTS, while Terrans went nearly extinct for a time. So INno and Maru getting consistently better premier results (spread out over all of HOTS) than soO (whose best results all fall into the same meta), despite whatever balance issues, is actually quite remarkable and in my opinion is excellent basis for giving INnoVation #1 and Maru somewhere between #3 and #6.
My personal list would look something like
1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Maru 4. sOs 5. Zest - although he was a non-entity for a huge chunk of HOTS, his average result in the premiers he made it to is ludicrously high, 5.25 to Maru's 10.3. 6. soO 7. Classic 8. herO 9. Rain 10. Taeja 11. PartinG 12. Soulkey
Interesting analysis. I'm fascinated particularly about Maru. He is consistently excellent, able to beat any player any given day, yet somehow always falls short at the R08 and RO4 stage. Maybe it's the luck of the draw, seeing how he's almost always beaten by the eventual champion. But still puts him at soO-level at most.
So as impressive his play is, I can't put myself to rank him Top 5 in HoTS. Pity we never saw him in weekenders. Maybe his raw skill would've thrived there. Still better than Taeja, though
Maru won a GSL and an SSL. That ain't nuthin.
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting his OSL win against Rain. I stand corrected then. He's a PL monster too. So he makes a strong contender for Top 5!
I wonder sometimes about the taste of Kespa balls. Seems like a lot of people swing quite freely from them, savoring the taste. I'm guessing the same taste as the TaeJa lovers (which, I am a proud swinger of). Are Kespa balls salty? Or do they remind you of a time before being kicked by TaeJa in a weekend tournament?
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player.
Impossible to say how he would have done in PL 2014 since he wasn't there. But your reasoning appears fundamentally flawed when considering the following;
In 2013 for STX he went 43-20 winning 68% of his games. (Only 1 win behind Flash for most overall, w/ <60% win rate in all match-ups)
In 2015 for SKT he went 18-7 winning 72% of his games. (#9 in overall wins due largely to not always being in the stacked lineup, w/ at least a 60% win rate in all match-ups)
While he unperformed relative to his S class standards while abroad (beginning early September, 2013), Aligulac shows he was already on the rebound and moving back up come early the following year (~mid April, 2014). His 'underachieving' time on ACER would be considered extraordinarily successful for most others (5 all-kills of 5 in a row each).
SKT clearly viewed him as a transformative player, who would thrive back in the KESPA training environment. Which is why they prioritized him as the biggest offseason PL acquisition before the start of 2015. He went 6-0 in R1 upon his PL return. And looked absolutely dominant in the process. Slipped a bit in the middle rounds while struggling with mechanical/meta game issues. And once fixed, ended R4 w/ a perfect 4-0 record. Defeated a hotter than-the-sun sOs in a hard fought and decisive G4 in the GF. Widely viewed going in as the critical pivot one between the two best players on their respective teams.
If I had to guess based on his team league history, I'd say he would have excelled in PL 2014. There is only overwhelming evidence that supports (zero against) that he is a team league god.
*WCS Global Finals 2014 was a disgrace due to the constant lag outs and players being dropped from games (up until the GF). Would have been terrible if it was a minor tournament and that happened, let alone the biggest stage of all. Would hardly consider beating Hyun and then losing to Taeja (coming off his historical summer) in RO8 a 'bad run'. Some players, notably Inno were much more impacted than others by the repeated technical failures (he was visibly on the point of tears w/ frustration at the incessant glitches).
WCS Global Finals 2015. If crushing Zest 3-0 and then losing to eventual runner-up Life (current GOAT) in the RO8 in a close series where Life played out of his mind, is considered bad, then standards are unrealistic. Inno was the favorite going in, and if not for some bad decisions (should have stuck w/ his unbeatable mech) and unusual mistakes, could easily have won despite Life's incredible play.
I really like TaeJa but for me SPL and GSL (now SSL too i suppose) are the bread and butter tournaments for top SC2 pro's. In order to be considered the 'best' these are the tournaments that you have to be producing great games in, on a regular basis.
I really enjoy some of the weekender tournaments though and perhaps maybe someone could create another list for top performers at those sort of events.
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player.
Impossible to say how he would have done in PL 2014 since he wasn't there. But your reasoning appears fundamentally flawed when considering the following;
In 2013 for STX he went 43-20 winning 68% of his games. (Only 1 win behind Flash for most overall, w/ <60% win rate in all match-ups)
In 2015 for SKT he went 18-7 winning 72% of his games. (#9 in overall wins due largely to not always being in the stacked lineup, w/ at least a 60% win rate in all match-ups)
While he unperformed relative to his S class standards while abroad (beginning early September, 2013), Aligulac shows he was already on the rebound and moving back up come early the following year (~mid April, 2014). His 'underachieving' time on ACER would be considered extraordinarily successful for most others (5 all-kills of 5 in a row each).
SKT clearly viewed him as a transformative player, who would thrive back in the KESPA training environment. Which is why they prioritized him as the biggest offseason PL acquisition before the start of 2015. He went 6-0 in R1 upon his PL return. And looked absolutely dominant in the process. Slipped a bit in the middle rounds while struggling with mechanical/meta game issues. And once fixed, ended R4 w/ a perfect 4-0 record. Defeated a hotter than-the-sun sOs in a hard fought and decisive G4 in the GF. Widely viewed coming in as the critical pivot one between the two best players on their respective teams.
If I had to guess based on his team league history, I'd say he would have excelled in PL 2014. There is only overwhelming evidence that supports (zero against) that he is a team league god.
*WCS Global Finals 2014 was a disgrace due to the constant lag outs and players being dropped from games (up until the GF). Would have been terrible if it was a minor tournament and that happened, let alone the biggest stage of all. Would hardly consider beating Hyun and then losing to Taeja (coming off his historical summer) in RO8 a 'bad run'. Some players, notably Inno were much more impacted than others by the repeated technical failures (he was visibly on the point of tears w/ frustration at the incessant glitches).
WCS Global Finals 2015. If crushing Zest 3-0 and then losing to eventual runner-up Life (current GOAT) in the RO8 in a close series where Life played out of his mind, is considered bad, then standards are unrealistic. Inno was the favorite going in, and if not for some bad decisions (should have stuck w/ his unbeatable mech) and unusual mistakes, could easily have won despite Life's incredible play.
dont forget that terrans were clearly UP during blizzcon, as show the previous 6 months of premier tournaments results.
And he would have demolished life if he played safe, since life can only all in and is just awfull in a macro game
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player.
Impossible to say how he would have done in PL 2014 since he wasn't there. But your reasoning appears fundamentally flawed when considering the following;
In 2013 for STX he went 43-20 winning 68% of his games. (Only 1 win behind Flash for most overall, w/ <60% win rate in all match-ups)
In 2015 for SKT he went 18-7 winning 72% of his games. (#9 in overall wins due largely to not always being in the stacked lineup, w/ at least a 60% win rate in all match-ups)
While he unperformed relative to his S class standards while abroad (beginning early September, 2013), Aligulac shows he was already on the rebound and moving back up come early the following year (~mid April, 2014). His 'underachieving' time on ACER would be considered extraordinarily successful for most others (5 all-kills of 5 in a row each).
SKT clearly viewed him as a transformative player, who would thrive back in the KESPA training environment. Which is why they prioritized him as the biggest offseason PL acquisition before the start of 2015. He went 6-0 in R1 upon his PL return. And looked absolutely dominant in the process. Slipped a bit in the middle rounds while struggling with mechanical/meta game issues. And once fixed, ended R4 w/ a perfect 4-0 record. Defeated a hotter than-the-sun sOs in a hard fought and decisive G4 in the GF. Widely viewed coming in as the critical pivot one between the two best players on their respective teams.
If I had to guess based on his team league history, I'd say he would have excelled in PL 2014. There is only overwhelming evidence that supports (zero against) that he is a team league god.
*WCS Global Finals 2014 was a disgrace due to the constant lag outs and players being dropped from games (up until the GF). Would have been terrible if it was a minor tournament and that happened, let alone the biggest stage of all. Would hardly consider beating Hyun and then losing to Taeja (coming off his historical summer) in RO8 a 'bad run'. Some players, notably Inno were much more impacted than others by the repeated technical failures (he was visibly on the point of tears w/ frustration at the incessant glitches).
WCS Global Finals 2015. If crushing Zest 3-0 and then losing to eventual runner-up Life (current GOAT) in the RO8 in a close series where Life played out of his mind, is considered bad, then standards are unrealistic. Inno was the favorite going in, and if not for some bad decisions (should have stuck w/ his unbeatable mech) and unusual mistakes, could easily have won despite Life's incredible play.
dont forget that terrans were clearly UP during blizzcon, as show the previous 6 months of premier tournaments results.
And he would have demolished life if he played safe, since life can only all in and is just awfull in a macro game
Innovation also once said in an interview that life lacks basic skills and then got crushed in macro games. I agree with you though that inno could´ve played better at blizzcon btw inno is the only player playing in the korean region who has been at every Blizzcon of hots
On February 25 2016 09:06 wjat wrote: The top 2 players for each race in hots were:
-Protoss: sOs, herO
-Zerg: Life, soO,
-Terran: Innovation, Maru.
1-Innovation 2-Life 3-sOs 4-soO 5-Maru 6-herO
byul should be really really close for zergs, but anyway you have done a good job, you just made a better list than this useless writer is gonna make
sOs has the biggest wins in his sleeve from HotS. His achievement list is bigger than Innovation's so if Innovation > Life, then the proper list would be sOs, Inno, Life. Though I think that with the number of tournaments Life visited he will get enough StuPoints to get over sOs.
not really. blizzcon has more prestige, but gsl/ssl is much more difficult to win. sos lacks such a championship for him to be even considered #1. innovation has 3 korean tournament victories and made another gsl final.
if you make a proper list that includes consistency, tournament difficulty, balance at the time and team league performance, the list should be as follows:
1. innovation 2. life 3. sos 4. zest 5. maru 6. hero 7. soo 8. taeja 9. classic 10. byul
Yet had bad blizzcon runs nevertheless. And he was absent from proleague in 2014and I am quite sure he would have been mediocre as he was not performing well as an acer player.
Impossible to say how he would have done in PL 2014 since he wasn't there. But your reasoning appears fundamentally flawed when considering the following;
In 2013 for STX he went 43-20 winning 68% of his games. (Only 1 win behind Flash for most overall, w/ <60% win rate in all match-ups)
In 2015 for SKT he went 18-7 winning 72% of his games. (#9 in overall wins due largely to not always being in the stacked lineup, w/ at least a 60% win rate in all match-ups)
While he unperformed relative to his S class standards while abroad (beginning early September, 2013), Aligulac shows he was already on the rebound and moving back up come early the following year (~mid April, 2014). His 'underachieving' time on ACER would be considered extraordinarily successful for most others (5 all-kills of 5 in a row each).
SKT clearly viewed him as a transformative player, who would thrive back in the KESPA training environment. Which is why they prioritized him as the biggest offseason PL acquisition before the start of 2015. He went 6-0 in R1 upon his PL return. And looked absolutely dominant in the process. Slipped a bit in the middle rounds while struggling with mechanical/meta game issues. And once fixed, ended R4 w/ a perfect 4-0 record. Defeated a hotter than-the-sun sOs in a hard fought and decisive G4 in the GF. Widely viewed coming in as the critical pivot one between the two best players on their respective teams.
If I had to guess based on his team league history, I'd say he would have excelled in PL 2014. There is only overwhelming evidence that supports (zero against) that he is a team league god.
*WCS Global Finals 2014 was a disgrace due to the constant lag outs and players being dropped from games (up until the GF). Would have been terrible if it was a minor tournament and that happened, let alone the biggest stage of all. Would hardly consider beating Hyun and then losing to Taeja (coming off his historical summer) in RO8 a 'bad run'. Some players, notably Inno were much more impacted than others by the repeated technical failures (he was visibly on the point of tears w/ frustration at the incessant glitches).
WCS Global Finals 2015. If crushing Zest 3-0 and then losing to eventual runner-up Life (current GOAT) in the RO8 in a close series where Life played out of his mind, is considered bad, then standards are unrealistic. Inno was the favorite going in, and if not for some bad decisions (should have stuck w/ his unbeatable mech) and unusual mistakes, could easily have won despite Life's incredible play.
dont forget that terrans were clearly UP during blizzcon, as show the previous 6 months of premier tournaments results.
And he would have demolished life if he played safe, since life can only all in and is just awfull in a macro game
ZvZ: Life >= soO > Soulkey (Maybe Rogue or Dark over Soulkey)
ZvP: Life >= soO > Solar (Feel like ByuL is on the cusp)
ZvT: ByuL >= Dark > Life (ByuL had the best ling/bane ever in 2015 and heroically stood against mech TvZ)
==
PvP: Zest > Rain >= sOs (Zest's bread and butter of 2014 was his PvP)
PvZ: Rain >= Classic > Zest (least sure about this one)
PvT: PartinG > herO > Rain (PartinG is untouchable)
==
TvT: Bogus = Taeja = Flash (pretty much a triangle here; honorable mentions to TY and Bomber)
TvZ: Bogus>>>>>> Maru >= Taeja (Bogus is best TvZ player of all-time not just of HotS)
TvP: Maru > Polt > Bogus (Straightforward imo)
Life was always pretty bad at zvp most of his wins there came through cheese. Same with Maru in tvz
For both Life and Maru they were only really bad in ZvP/TvZ respectively when comparing it to their other MUs. Relative to other Zergs/Terrans they were still top-tier. They consistently pulled an above-average level of wins where others of their race faltered against the best of the best. I don't think most of their wins came through cheese either, sure they'd do it quite frequently but they both totally had the solid foundations to play a standard game (remember Life's agonizing SH games against San and Zest at Blizzcon?). Rather, they were both just really aggressive.
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
I'd love to read that, just make it a tie between rain and zest.
Btw: TvT: Mvp TvZ:INnoVation TvP: TaeJa ZvZ: soO/NesTea PvP: Zest/Rain PvT: PartinG ZvT: Life PvZ: herO/Zest ZvP: soO
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
Haha. Conundrum.
There's still the mistake.
On February 26 2016 10:56 Charoisaur wrote: TvP: TaeJa
I have nostalgic nerd chills thinking about IPL TAC 3 Finals now.
I remember Maru's TvP being super solid and unbeatable in 2015. The likes of Zest and herO stood no chance. Until Rain came along and bopped him in GSL.
On February 26 2016 21:10 RKC wrote: I remember Maru's TvP being super solid and unbeatable in 2015. The likes of Zest and herO stood no chance. Until Rain came along and bopped him in GSL.
herO was one of the few Protosses who could keep up with Maru, actually. And PartinG reached the point where Maru was actually scared of playing him in GSL.
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
Maybe you could do 2 articles ? One about best player by matchup for WOL, then one for HotS
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
Maybe you could do 2 articles ? One about best player by matchup for WOL, then one for HotS
Would give us something nice to read
Nah, I rather stuchiu devote his energies to write a click-baity article about how the newly liberated LoTV is disrupting the gaming scene and ravaging into MOBA market share
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
elfi
woah woah, we're talking about best player here, not about literal gods man
On further pondering, I feel like Dear and Solar should have been really close to making the final cut. And definitely see the arguments for including either or both in the last slot or two. Dear for his stunning and short lived peak at the very top, and later resurrection to strength again. Solar for his incredible results overseas (against some impressive competition), while doing well in Korea too.
For me, these two Samsung stars are essentially in the same general tier as Polt, Bomber, Byul, and Soulkey (have to dock him for lack of results outside of his amazing second half of 2013, albeit was solid and unspectacular in GSL and PL in 2014).
*Honorable mentions to Hyun for his constant overseas results and Stats for his impressive Korean tournament results in the later stages of HOTS, and continual PL success.
**For that brief stretch in early-mid 2015, Dream really looked to be the next coming of Life. And strung together some of the most impressive wins against absolute top tier competition in both individual and team league play in Korea I've ever seen.
On February 26 2016 10:17 stuchiu wrote: I did think about writing an article about best player by matchup all time, but got stuck at PvP. Rain vs Zest.
I'd love to read that, just make it a tie between rain and zest.
Btw: TvT: Mvp TvZ:INnoVation TvP: TaeJa ZvZ: soO/NesTea PvP: Zest/Rain PvT: PartinG ZvT: Life PvZ: herO/Zest ZvP: soO
TvT: Mvp TvZ: TaeJa TvP: Polt PvP: Zest/Rain PvT: Parting PvZ: This is the one that bugs me. ZvZ: soO ZvT: Life ZvP: Stephano?
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/GoaTsc2/byul.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/GoaTsc2/bomberredbull.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/GoaTsc2/soulkeydailyesports.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/u0nIzZL.gif)
![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/GoaTsc2/classic.jpg)
