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On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Just for you:
On December 19 2015 19:23 Diabolique wrote:The initial reports were shocking, the official WCS system announcement frustrating and the IEM announcement that they will become WCS Welfare tournament just nailed it. I understand the happiness of foreign players, they will have more money for much less work. I just hate their celebrations. For us, viewers, it is bad. But we could get used to it. We are angry now, at the end, we might watch WCS Welfare anyway, there are still good players, good guys like Snute and you can't not cheer for them (unless Snute starts celebrating the system as well). But here is the real CATASTROPHY, DOOM AND GLOOM. This system completely fucked up with the Korean players. Imagine, you are working hard all your life to become one of the best players in the world. You give to it everything, your effort, your skills, all your time, your life. And you are successful and pay it back to all worldwide fans through the enjoyment of your game. That was 2015. As a Korean pro, you have participated in the following events: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra 2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans 3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN 4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN 5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol 6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG 7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy 8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt 9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark 10. GSL Season 1 11. SSL Season 1 12. GSL Season 2 13. SSL Season 2 14. GSL Season 3 15. SSL Season 3 16. Hot6ix Cup 17. Kespa Cup It was a nice year. It was somehow balanced for the number of elite Korean pros. And now the new year, 2016. Where can you compete? The list is shorter: 1. GSL Season 1 2. SSL Season 1 3. GSL Season 2 4. SSL Season 2 5. Kespa Cup 6. HSC 7. One "Invitational" IEM closing the era of good IEMs + maybe Hot6ix Cup + maybe 1 "WCS Global Tournament" This is for 12 months. If I were a Korean pro, I would be so pissed off. How the world fucked up with us ... This system wants to bring the foreigners' and Korean levels closer together. Not by improving the foreigners. But by damaging the Koreans. Less competitions. Less opportunities. Less players.
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On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
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On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
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On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol Snute is kinda special. Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break. And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
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Do I understand that correctly, that no koreans at all may participate in this tournament, not even the ones who are living abroad?
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On December 22 2015 21:05 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
Do I understand that correctly, that no koreans at all may participate in this tournament, not even the ones who are living abroad?
These who live abroad still can, I don't think visa requirements changed since last system.
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On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol Snute is kinda special. Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break. And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle. But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere. I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify). I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon. Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
I understand your points and agree with your stance, but I'm still trying to see good sides of the change. Regarding your last paragraph, paraphrasing it a bit:
Were I a young non-Korean, I wouldn't even try.
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On December 22 2015 21:10 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol Snute is kinda special. Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break. And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle. But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere. I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify). I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon. Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer. I understand your points and agree with your stance, but I'm still trying to see good sides of the change. Regarding your last paragraph, paraphrasing it a bit: Were I a young non-Korean, I wouldn't even try.
Exactly, but they are changing "Were I a young non-Korean, I wouldn't even try." into "Were I a young Korean, I wouldn't even try.". That is not correct.
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On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans..
Actually, I think this will hurt the skill level of foreigners, if they don't compete against superior players on a regular basis.
Think of BW: Foreigners almost never competed with koreans and the skill gap widened year after year.
This is true for every kind of sport: You will learn much more if you play against superior players than when you play against equal or worse players.
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So much negativity for a tournament that didn't even have Starcraft II last year. This is a tournament with a great prizepool and it will be fun to watch. It's an extra live event with audience. It's something to be happy about not sad/mad.
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On December 22 2015 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Well, one thing's for sure. The changes managed to divide the community and create some animosity between some fans and foreigner pros.
It's going to be interesting to see if the loosing of some viewers will be compensated by new "casual" viewers. The first tournament might have good numbers due to the novelty effect, but the next ones will be an interesting experiment.
That's what it will come down to. We vote with our eyeballs. Like I said before, I will be watching Hearthstone if it is on this DH.
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On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Sorry, but LoL community seems better. At least they dont produce negative shit like you. The only way how to bring more players is to offer them more money which is exactly what WCS does. Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans. Tbh, sacrifice one or two years without Koreans and maybe we will get something like LoL has in their LCS - Worlds format. But it is always better to put a fight than just watch sc2 dying slowly. Because you know, thats what is happening.
foreigners will never be on par with koreans because practising in a low skilled environment doesn't make you a better player. just like the na lcs. they get smashed in groups at every international event although they imported koreans and riot fucked over the korean scene multiple times. the league community doesn't have 15 years of history with korean players, so they don't give a fuck about them.
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Koreans aren't good just because they are Korean but because hard work pays off. I imagine them practicing 14 hrs a day and then they still have to cook soup and massage each others shoulders!
I'm not entirely sure it is good for the skill level of foreigners to shut out Koreans. I understand that it may boost the mindset but in the long run?
Do foreign teams work the same way as Korean teams with coaching and custom games etc?
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On December 22 2015 21:45 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Well, one thing's for sure. The changes managed to divide the community and create some animosity between some fans and foreigner pros.
It's going to be interesting to see if the loosing of some viewers will be compensated by new "casual" viewers. The first tournament might have good numbers due to the novelty effect, but the next ones will be an interesting experiment. That's what it will come down to. We vote with our eyeballs. Like I said before, I will be watching Hearthstone if it is on this DH.
At least Dreamhack CS:GO didnt not shut the door in the face of the best teams and players of the world.
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On December 22 2015 21:22 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
So much negativity for a tournament that didn't even have Starcraft II last year. This is a tournament with a great prizepool and it will be fun to watch. It's an extra live event with audience. It's something to be happy about not sad/mad.
somehow not having Koreans is a bigger deal than not having any sc2... I choose to see the glass half full.
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On December 22 2015 21:15 MapleLeafSirup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote:
Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans.. Actually, I think this will hurt the skill level of foreigners, if they don't compete against superior players on a regular basis. Think of BW: Foreigners almost never competed with koreans and the skill gap widened year after year. This is true for every kind of sport: You will learn much more if you play against superior players than when you play against equal or worse players.
I believe you have in mind only foreigners who are professional from before 2012 or something. I also wonder why do you believe tournament games can be considered practice. I always thought that tournaments were a place that you practice for.
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On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote:
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~ You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon. Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol Snute is kinda special. Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break. And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle. But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere. I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify). I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon. Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
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So there is only 2 spots for EU that are paid and the rest has to go for open qualifier at the place?
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On December 22 2015 11:40 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 11:09 Thax wrote:On December 22 2015 06:36 Lemartes wrote:I hope polt goes there and just wins it, would be so much fun to have another year with no foreign champ, especially with the new system  People like you are what's wrong with this community. It's fine to prefer Koreans and not like the current system much, but your mindset is just vile and toxic. No, people like you are what's wrong with this community. Some of us just want to watch the best Starcraft without jingoism and racism attached to it. That you think a system like that could be created without experiencing a backlash is just laughable. Boo hoo, the yellow skins are taking all the prize money and not leaving anything for the white skins. Need affirmative action for the white skins.
Sure bro. You keep on trucking. I'll keep on hating on some yellow skins.
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EPT
