Format DeamHack Open Leipzig will be the first WCS 5000 Circuit Event of 2016, with 5,000 WCS points up for grabs and a great prize pool of $50,000. The event will feature a traditional DreamHack Open format—96 gamers will be split into two groups, before the top 32 overall players from each initial group stage move into a second group stage. The tournament will then conclude in a RO32 single elimination stage until we have crowned a new DreamHack Open Champion.
There will be an open sign-up to participate, as well as eight slots dedicated for the Circuit Passport Qualifiers (see below). All competitors need to be eligible for a WCS Circuit event, as outlined below.
Eligibility In order to compete in the WCS Circuit, all participants must be a resident of a country within the WCS Circuit home regions. The 2016 residency requirements add greater clarity, more checks on time spent outside of the resident region, and a ladder play requirement.
WCS Circuit: eligible countries and regions Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) Latin America China Oceania, Southeast Asia, Japan Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau All participants in the WCS Circuit will be required to verify their Battle.net account and provide proof of residency.
Qualifiers DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1) Please note that to be eligible to qualify, the competitor must be a citizen of their representative region.
Sign up The sign-ups will open shortly, and info on competitor passes will be available soon. In the meantime, you can read more about DreamHack Leipzig here. TOURNAMENT INFORMATION Tournament name: DreamHack Open Leipzig - StarCraft II Event: DreamHack Leipzig 2016 Dates: 22-24th January 2016 Venue: The Leipzig Trade Fair Game: StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void Prize Pool: 1. $16,000 2. $8,000 3-4. $4,000 5-8. $2,000 9-16. $1,000
On December 22 2015 06:29 ZAiNs wrote: So it seems like 'WCS Global Events' will be a rarity and aren't intended to be a significant part of the WCS system .
On December 22 2015 06:29 ZAiNs wrote: So it seems like 'WCS Global Events' will be a rarity and aren't intended to be a significant part of the WCS system .
I've said it before. There's no incentive for organizers to create them. The prize pool must be $50,000+. If you make Circuit events you can get Blizzard on board to make a $50,000 event where you only pay half the prize pool.
If we see 5 Global Events before the end of the year I'd be shocked.
Calm down! The new year hasn't even started. I would bet my ass that IEM and DH will atleast do 1 global each. And I would not wonder if Redbull would too. And I have that feeling, that we might see the first big one in China next year maybe?! Or we see a global in Korea, now that there are only 2 Seasons of GSL and SSL. Don't be so negative everyone.
Finally some more infos about this. If the sign up opens, i will sign in
btw, Date: 22 - 24 January
Werent the last SC2 DHs only 2 days long? Or is this actually going to be played out over 3 days, aka finals on Sunday instead of the "Finale 8 Show" on Saturday?
On December 22 2015 06:45 B42b42oss4 wrote: Calm down! The new year hasn't even started. I would bet my ass that IEM and DH will atleast do 1 global each. And I would not wonder if Redbull would too. And I have that feeling, that we might see the first big one in China next year maybe?! Or we see a global in Korea, now that there are only 2 Seasons of GSL and SSL. Don't be so negative everyone.
I will say it again. There's no incentive. It requires a $50,000+ prize pool. Redbull did 0 individual tournaments this year and the Archon tourney had a $30,000 prize pool. IEM's only event to ever have $50,000+ prize pools was the WC at Katowice, which is now the Circuit Spring Championship.
And the reason for that was that hots was fucking boring. In Redbulls place I wouldn't invest into that game either if I know that lotv will be released soon. Thats the reason they did no invitationals this year.
If we see 5 Global Events before the end of the year I'd be shocked.
If we see a single Global Events (HSC not counted) it would be a miracle.
I was expecting 2, one from IEM and one from DH. But IEM already announced his "one big prize money event of the year" and it's for foreigners... I don't have hopes anymore tbh
On December 22 2015 06:59 B42b42oss4 wrote: And the reason for that was that hots was fucking boring. In Redbulls place I wouldn't invest into that game either if I know that lotv will be released soon. Thats the reason they did no invitationals this year.
10/10.
Don't be so negative everyone.
And the reason for that was that hots was fucking boring.
Not surprising decision by the Dreamhack at all, considering that CS:GO is their primary game and SC2 is whatever, so there is no reason to invest extra money at all. Basically confirms that Solar won't reach TaeJa's stars amount. :p
On December 22 2015 06:59 B42b42oss4 wrote: And the reason for that was that hots was fucking boring. In Redbulls place I wouldn't invest into that game either if I know that lotv will be released soon. Thats the reason they did no invitationals this year.
It's still much cheaper to do Circuit events. They could do a Global Event but considering they seem to think foreigners are what draws the audiences in it's unlikely. And then there's always the IEM route of doing a non-WCS tournament with Koreans with a lower prize pool.
The only globals, that might happen, are in Korea.
You have to pay double the prizemoney for it as you dont get prizemoney boost. The only orgs, that bring such money in SC II are DH, RB, IEM and Kespa. IEM is out, as they use kato for the winter event. D.H. Winter is after Blizzcon. I bet my ass that either RB Washington or D.H. Austin will be the spring or summer championship, the other one will be most likely again in Europe, either IEM Cologne or another D.H.
Only Kespa is left for global events, even IEM Taiwan is not a global event. And I stupid hoped to see more koreans in Germany, I should have known better. Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: The only globals, that might happen, are in Korea.
You have to pay double the prizemoney for it as you dont get prizemoney boost. The only orgs, that bring such money in SC II are DH, RB, IEM and Kespa. IEM is out, as they use kato for the winter event. D.H. Winter is after Blizzcon. I bet my ass that either RB Washington or D.H. Austin will be the spring or summer championship, the other one will be most likely again in Europe, either IEM Cologne or another D.H.
Only Kespa is left for global events, even IEM Taiwan is not a global event. And I stupid hoped to see more koreans in Germany, I should have known better. Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
I'd assume KeSPA Cup will be a Global but only because it's the only way they can more WCS points for Koreans.
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
So much this. Was actually planning to go with my gf, but given that it's gonna be foreigners only we won't go. I was really looking forward to DH coming to Germany as I very much so prefer their events over ESL's (at least when it comes to attending in person), but all my favourite players are Kespa Koreans and I don't really see any point in going now.
On December 22 2015 07:22 RCCar wrote: Hopefully there are like 80k viewers watching this or something so foreign scene can thrive.... This is gonna be WCS Circuit's first test.
One day we'll move from "more people watcihng - better the scene" leitmotif.
On December 22 2015 06:53 Pyloss wrote: Finally some more infos about this. If the sign up opens, i will sign in
btw, Date: 22 - 24 January
Werent the last SC2 DHs only 2 days long? Or is this actually going to be played out over 3 days, aka finals on Sunday instead of the "Finale 8 Show" on Saturday?
How do the sign ups actually work? Are they just first come first serve?
To be honest, most of the foreign starcraft players are just embarassing to watch. So much money for a ton of players who are not even close to practicing as hard as the koreans. Don´t wanna even start talking about WCS. I am completly skipping those tournaments, supporting this bullshit. Lets see how the viewerships will go.
StarCraft is in an awesome state, thats just poor. "Korean masterrace" too strong, keep them out of the major part of competition. gg wp.
On December 22 2015 06:59 B42b42oss4 wrote: And the reason for that was that hots was fucking boring. In Redbulls place I wouldn't invest into that game either if I know that lotv will be released soon. Thats the reason they did no invitationals this year.
And the reason for that was that hots was fucking boring.
Not surprising decision by the Dreamhack at all, considering that CS:GO is their primary game and SC2 is whatever, so there is no reason to invest extra money at all. Basically confirms that Solar won't reach TaeJa's stars amount. :p
Unless I missed it, there wasn't a star at the last DreamHack anyway
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
So much this. Was actually planning to go with my gf, but given that it's gonna be foreigners only we won't go. I was really looking forward to DH coming to Germany as I very much so prefer their events over ESL's (at least when it comes to attending in person), but all my favourite players are Kespa Koreans and I don't really see any point in going now.
To be fair DH doesnt have much kespa players normally
On December 22 2015 07:22 RCCar wrote: Hopefully there are like 80k viewers watching this or something so foreign scene can thrive.... This is gonna be WCS Circuit's first test.
One day we'll move from "more people watcihng - better the scene" leitmotif.
Won't happen tonight though.
gonna be a while before the importance of view numbers drops
So glad I can finally see some PERSONALITY at DreamHack now. Maybe if I turn off my sound, I can trick myself into thinking this is the best of the best playing weekends. What a fucking joke.
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
So much this. Was actually planning to go with my gf, but given that it's gonna be foreigners only we won't go. I was really looking forward to DH coming to Germany as I very much so prefer their events over ESL's (at least when it comes to attending in person), but all my favourite players are Kespa Koreans and I don't really see any point in going now.
Hold on let me go get the Violin because Kespa players went to Dreamhack so often 10/10 buddy
On December 22 2015 07:22 RCCar wrote: Hopefully there are like 80k viewers watching this or something so foreign scene can thrive.... This is gonna be WCS Circuit's first test.
One day we'll move from "more people watcihng - better the scene" leitmotif.
Won't happen tonight though.
You would think that with the popular well proclaimed "mature audience" that SC2 has, we wouldn't be running into high school mentality of "my esports has to be bigger than yours"
Personally, i really dont care if koreans play or do not play. I believe SC2 fans should be supporting events like this no matter what they think about the current state of WCS.
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
So much this. Was actually planning to go with my gf, but given that it's gonna be foreigners only we won't go. I was really looking forward to DH coming to Germany as I very much so prefer their events over ESL's (at least when it comes to attending in person), but all my favourite players are Kespa Koreans and I don't really see any point in going now.
Hold on let me go get the Violin because Kespa players went to Dreamhack so often 10/10 buddy
On December 22 2015 07:22 RCCar wrote: Hopefully there are like 80k viewers watching this or something so foreign scene can thrive.... This is gonna be WCS Circuit's first test.
One day we'll move from "more people watcihng - better the scene" leitmotif.
Won't happen tonight though.
You would think that with the popular well proclaimed "mature audience" that SC2 has, we wouldn't be running into high school mentality of "my esports has to be bigger than yours"
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
So much this. Was actually planning to go with my gf, but given that it's gonna be foreigners only we won't go. I was really looking forward to DH coming to Germany as I very much so prefer their events over ESL's (at least when it comes to attending in person), but all my favourite players are Kespa Koreans and I don't really see any point in going now.
Hold on let me go get the Violin because Kespa players went to Dreamhack so often 10/10 buddy
On December 22 2015 07:27 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On December 22 2015 07:22 RCCar wrote: Hopefully there are like 80k viewers watching this or something so foreign scene can thrive.... This is gonna be WCS Circuit's first test.
One day we'll move from "more people watcihng - better the scene" leitmotif.
Won't happen tonight though.
You would think that with the popular well proclaimed "mature audience" that SC2 has, we wouldn't be running into high school mentality of "my esports has to be bigger than yours"
On December 22 2015 07:29 Darkencik wrote: Blizzard is spending so much money on this :o the prize pool + travel and accommodations
i really hope that it works out and Starcraft will become more popular
I think moving that WCS funding here is a smart move and things would've turned out better if they did that from the start. Not that it was completely obvious back then, but the Riot-style model without proper region lock didn't help SC2 much.
Keeping with the tradition of absurdly late announcements. I think it's inappropriate to require people to plan international travel with less than a month notice.
On December 22 2015 09:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Personally, i really dont care if koreans play or do not play. I believe SC2 fans should be supporting events like this no matter what they think about the current state of WCS.
I disagree. Basically, if the viewers really drop pretty damn hard, there are two possible outcomes: 1) Blizzard/IEM/RB/DH agree that the system sucks and open up the tournaments to Koreans. 2) IEM/RB/DH think it's the game and not the system and they drop the game. I mean, I'd be really pissed if StarCraft II died because it's the only eSports title I really like watching. However, I could not care less about foreigner only tournaments. Therefore, strictly speaking, whether they play SCII with the current rules at DH or not at all, does not really affect my interest. In both cases it's equal to 0. And under these circumstances, I don't see why I should support a format I don't like at all and that destroyed all the tournaments I liked to watch (-> Korean tournaments are hard to follow, because they're on at... 10:00 AM...)
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Competition isn't important to a lot of these people. They just want koreans gone.
So much missinformation regarding IEM Taiwan in here. IEM Taiwan will be a global event. Oddly though, it doesn't meet the requirements for a global event, such as +16 players and only having $25k prizepool. Maybe IEM Taiwan won't be a WCS point tournament at all. http://de.intelextrememasters.com/season10/asia/
On December 22 2015 09:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Personally, i really dont care if koreans play or do not play. I believe SC2 fans should be supporting events like this no matter what they think about the current state of WCS.
And this guy is right. If you really love StarCraft and have so much passion then you should support our game anyway.
On December 22 2015 09:29 NonY wrote: Keeping with the tradition of absurdly late announcements. I think it's inappropriate to require people to plan international travel with less than a month notice.
Yeah, seems quite unprofessional. Very inconvenient for potential players. Plus it's also a lot more expensive to book flights so late.
On December 22 2015 09:29 NonY wrote: Keeping with the tradition of absurdly late announcements. I think it's inappropriate to require people to plan international travel with less than a month notice.
yeah, I know you've brought this up in the past but let's hope this was just delayed due to WCS changes and there will be more notice int he future!
Ah well, I may drop in on the live report thread to see whether it is anything worth while.
On December 22 2015 09:45 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: So much missinformation regarding IEM Taiwan in here. IEM Taiwan will be a global event. Oddly though, it doesn't meet the requirements for a global event, such as +16 players and only having $25k prizepool. Maybe IEM Taiwan won't be a WCS point tournament at all. http://de.intelextrememasters.com/season10/asia/
On December 22 2015 09:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Personally, i really dont care if koreans play or do not play. I believe SC2 fans should be supporting events like this no matter what they think about the current state of WCS.
And this guy is right. If you really love StarCraft and have so much passion then you should support our game anyway.
I rather spend that time watching GSL VOD's and such. That, and Hearthstone if they have it at Dreamhack. No region locking there last time I checked.
On December 22 2015 09:45 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: So much missinformation regarding IEM Taiwan in here. IEM Taiwan will be a global event. Oddly though, it doesn't meet the requirements for a global event, such as +16 players and only having $25k prizepool. Maybe IEM Taiwan won't be a WCS point tournament at all. http://de.intelextrememasters.com/season10/asia/
On December 22 2015 09:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Personally, i really dont care if koreans play or do not play. I believe SC2 fans should be supporting events like this no matter what they think about the current state of WCS.
And this guy is right. If you really love StarCraft and have so much passion then you should support our game anyway.
I rather spend that time watching GSL VOD's and such. That, and Hearthstone if they have it at Dreamhack. No region locking there last time I checked.
But Hearthstone is so casual. Uno world championships is where the real card games are at. They regionlocked the spanish speaking world and the italians out of the tournament because they had a huge cultural edge.
On December 22 2015 10:10 achan1058 wrote: Ah well, I may drop in on the live report thread to see whether it is anything worth while.
On December 22 2015 09:45 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: So much missinformation regarding IEM Taiwan in here. IEM Taiwan will be a global event. Oddly though, it doesn't meet the requirements for a global event, such as +16 players and only having $25k prizepool. Maybe IEM Taiwan won't be a WCS point tournament at all. http://de.intelextrememasters.com/season10/asia/
On December 22 2015 09:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Personally, i really dont care if koreans play or do not play. I believe SC2 fans should be supporting events like this no matter what they think about the current state of WCS.
And this guy is right. If you really love StarCraft and have so much passion then you should support our game anyway.
I rather spend that time watching GSL VOD's and such. That, and Hearthstone if they have it at Dreamhack. No region locking there last time I checked.
But Hearthstone is so casual. Uno world championships is where the real card games are at. They regionlocked the spanish speaking world and the italians out of the tournament because they had a huge cultural edge.
The thing is, by introducing Swiss format and all that, Dreamhack Hearthstone is setting themselves up to be what a great tournament should be. It's the opposite of what they are doing to SC2.
On December 22 2015 09:45 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: So much missinformation regarding IEM Taiwan in here. IEM Taiwan will be a global event. Oddly though, it doesn't meet the requirements for a global event, such as +16 players and only having $25k prizepool. Maybe IEM Taiwan won't be a WCS point tournament at all. http://de.intelextrememasters.com/season10/asia/
It's NOT a Global event, it's an "Invitational", or roughly translated "Fuck you Koreans, go play for table scraps"
Anyway on topic, Fuck this DH, we're now two for two in tournaments in Europe next year I give zero fucks about
On December 22 2015 10:44 covetousrat wrote: So no more koreans in all foreign tounaments?
Effectively. There's technically the "WCS Global Event" possibility, but chances are none will ever be held. Blizzard probably added it to the list to be able to claim that they didn't completely ban Koreans.
On December 22 2015 09:58 stuchiu wrote: SC2 fans can enjoy what they want, they dont have a moral obligation to watch every event.
it is disappointing but you are correct, these sc2 tournament is descending from esport which were competitve to merely a event now.
How is that anything close to what he was saying?
region locking defies fair competition, this is against the moral of sportsmanship, it is literally just an event ,and it is not qualify to be called sports/esports.
Come to think of it, this new WCS is like Blizzard doing a ragequit on behalf of foreigners. Except that the guys who ragequitted get the cash. Ah well, their house their rules.
And this guy is right. If you really love StarCraft and have so much passion then you should support our game anyway.
But why? It's not the game I really want to follow anymore. This is like College sports vs Professional sports in the United States. I enjoy watching the NFL and only enjoy watching college football if my school is playing. Otherwise, what's the point? Should I watch all football just to support the sport? There's no better way to show Blizzard I am unhappy other than not watching this abomination.
On December 22 2015 06:36 Lemartes wrote: I hope polt goes there and just wins it, would be so much fun to have another year with no foreign champ, especially with the new system
People like you are what's wrong with this community. It's fine to prefer Koreans and not like the current system much, but your mindset is just vile and toxic.
On December 22 2015 06:36 Lemartes wrote: I hope polt goes there and just wins it, would be so much fun to have another year with no foreign champ, especially with the new system
People like you are what's wrong with this community. It's fine to prefer Koreans and not like the current system much, but your mindset is just vile and toxic.
No, people like you are what's wrong with this community. Some of us just want to watch the best Starcraft without jingoism and racism attached to it. That you think a system like that could be created without experiencing a backlash is just laughable.
Boo hoo, the yellow skins are taking all the prize money and not leaving anything for the white skins. Need affirmative action for the white skins.
Wouldnt this reduce the number viewership for foreign events. I for one only watch koreans especially Kespa players. I do not feel any hype towards these foreigner events anymore. Maybe its just me. Its like watching Code B after Code S.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Competition isn't important to a lot of these people. They just want koreans gone.
It is sickening to see these types of tweets from foreigner players, just trash attitude. While having a positive attitude about the new WCS system is reasonable response, coming out and proudly displaying anti-Korean agenda is pure garbage.
On December 22 2015 11:41 covetousrat wrote: Wouldnt this reduce the number viewership for foreign events. I for one only watch koreans especially Kespa players. I do not feel any hype towards these foreigner events anymore. Maybe its just me. Its like watching Code B after Code S.
The theory that people want to watch foreigners because they can relate to them better is finally put to the test. My fear is that the people that are still interested in sc2 are mostly the people who like watching Koreans play. The popular response on here and reddit sure seems to give some credibility to that fear.
SC2 might not be pulling new audiences in anyway at this point and so many of the foreign stars with lots of fans already retired too.
I do still see why this might be a good thing for sc2 but I'm not really sure of how it will play out...
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
On December 22 2015 11:40 andrewlt wrote: No, people like you are what's wrong with this community. Some of us just want to watch the best Starcraft without jingoism and racism attached to it.
On December 22 2015 11:41 covetousrat wrote: Wouldnt this reduce the number viewership for foreign events. I for one only watch koreans especially Kespa players. I do not feel any hype towards these foreigner events anymore. Maybe its just me. Its like watching Code B after Code S.
The theory that people want to watch foreigners because they can relate to them better is finally put to the test. My fear is that the people that are still interested in sc2 are mostly the people who like watching Koreans play. The popular response on here and reddit sure seems to give some credibility to that fear.
SC2 might not be pulling new audiences in anyway at this point and so many of the foreign stars with lots of fans already retired too.
I do still see why this might be a good thing for sc2 but I'm not really sure of how it will play out...
completely agree with everything you've said, i'm hoping for the best but fearing the worst
i've always thought that part of the fun of rooting for foreigners is that they might have a chance at topping high level koreans for a tournament win (Scarlett in 2013, Snute and Bunny over the last few years, Lilbow this year)
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
Yeah, I don't know why everyone is so surprised that region locking isn't a new or uncommon practice.
I'm also looking forward to this. I enjoy the Korean tournaments more, but I'll enjoy this more than 1/2 and 1/2 events where the ro16 (minus 1 or 2) are predictable.
On December 22 2015 09:58 stuchiu wrote: SC2 fans can enjoy what they want, they dont have a moral obligation to watch every event.
it is disappointing but you are correct, these sc2 tournament is descending from esport which were competitve to merely a event now.
How is that anything close to what he was saying?
region locking defies fair competition, this is against the moral of sportsmanship, it is literally just an event ,and it is not qualify to be called sports/esports.
I am not a big fan of region locking either, it was just the phrasing that felt weird I guess since stuchiu did not seem to have said that at all, event is not a derogatory term in SC2, it just mean a weekend type tournament. Unless I miss something.
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
Yeah, I don't know why everyone is so surprised that region locking isn't a new or uncommon practice.
I'm also looking forward to this. I enjoy the Korean tournaments more, but I'll enjoy this more than 1/2 and 1/2 events where the ro16 (minus 1 or 2) are predictable.
Don't get why people keep mentioning team sports having region locking. Last time I checked sc2 is played as an individual not a team sport. Plus it isn't competition with restricted "limited" amount of players from one region, but accepting every region but one effectively banning every Korean.
EDIT: Plus why are discussing policies of secondary leagues?
WCS Circuit: eligible countries and regions Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) Latin America China Oceania, Southeast Asia, Japan Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau
Could've saved time and just wrote, EVERYONE BUT KOREANS.
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
Yeah, I don't know why everyone is so surprised that region locking isn't a new or uncommon practice.
I'm also looking forward to this. I enjoy the Korean tournaments more, but I'll enjoy this more than 1/2 and 1/2 events where the ro16 (minus 1 or 2) are predictable.
Don't get why people keep mentioning team sports having region locking. Last time I checked sc2 is played as an individual not a team sport. Plus it isn't competition with restricted "limited" amount of players from one region, but accepting every region but one effectively banning every Korean.
EDIT: Plus why are discussing policies of secondary leagues?
WCS Circuit: eligible countries and regions Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) Latin America China Oceania, Southeast Asia, Japan Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau
Could've saved time and just wrote, EVERYONE BUT KOREANS.
I think the analogy is a lot closer than you think, since there are also team-sponsored Korean players who really will be eligible for the WCS Circuit. I understand the team/individual competition difference, but really the basic point is that region locking will diminish the quality of competition. Nobody argues that this isn't the case.
I'm just trying to point out that people, for various interesting reasons, still have a lot of fun watching sports competitions and leagues that, because of player nationality restrictions, are clearly not the absolute highest levels of competition available I'm one of those people for other sports, so I'm at least willing to give WCS Circuit events a try.
EDIT: And the bigger point, for people who are worried about the state of the game, is that many of these region-locked sports leagues are also successful in their own rights. Another example is KBO itself, with its American player limitation
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
Yeah, I don't know why everyone is so surprised that region locking isn't a new or uncommon practice.
I'm also looking forward to this. I enjoy the Korean tournaments more, but I'll enjoy this more than 1/2 and 1/2 events where the ro16 (minus 1 or 2) are predictable.
Don't get why people keep mentioning team sports having region locking. Last time I checked sc2 is played as an individual not a team sport. Plus it isn't competition with restricted "limited" amount of players from one region, but accepting every region but one effectively banning every Korean.
EDIT: Plus why are discussing policies of secondary leagues?
WCS Circuit: eligible countries and regions Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) Latin America China Oceania, Southeast Asia, Japan Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau
Could've saved time and just wrote, EVERYONE BUT KOREANS.
But that's just blatantly racist, Blizzard wants to at least try and be covert.
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
Yeah, I don't know why everyone is so surprised that region locking isn't a new or uncommon practice.
I'm also looking forward to this. I enjoy the Korean tournaments more, but I'll enjoy this more than 1/2 and 1/2 events where the ro16 (minus 1 or 2) are predictable.
Don't get why people keep mentioning team sports having region locking. Last time I checked sc2 is played as an individual not a team sport. Plus it isn't competition with restricted "limited" amount of players from one region, but accepting every region but one effectively banning every Korean.
EDIT: Plus why are discussing policies of secondary leagues?
WCS Circuit: eligible countries and regions Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) Latin America China Oceania, Southeast Asia, Japan Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau
Could've saved time and just wrote, EVERYONE BUT KOREANS.
Like I said in an earlier thread, I'd have a lot more respect for the people who support this if they'd use the name they're all thinking "WCS Fuck Korea"
Oh, I thought it was EU only in EU tournaments and so. That would make sense with building the local scene and yada yada as I went on about in the other thread. But it is really all the world except KR! :o Highly dodgy. "WCS eligible countries"... Right... >_> How does Blizzard even motivate something like this?? Like, is it legal?
I think I went from "let's see how this pans out", to "ummmm... this is kindof discrimating".
Also me personally prefers to watch the best players (read: Koreans), but I'd be fine to tune in to EU or NA tournaments. I probably can't tell the difference anyway, as even the B-level foreigners are so far above my level.
On December 22 2015 09:40 bypLy wrote: It will be a lowtier and boring tournement because the approx 50 best players worldwide are missing. Image this is any other sports...
Actually in other sports region locking is pretty common. The Liga ACB is probably the second best non-tournament basketball league in the world and it basically has a limitation of two Americans per team. It's not the NBA, but it's also not meant to be the NBA and can't really compete against the NBA. And still, it has its own important niche and a passionate fan base.
I'm looking forward to this event, and to other WCS Circuit events, and to GSL, and to S2SL. There's enough room in my heart to love all SC2 events <3
Yeah, I don't know why everyone is so surprised that region locking isn't a new or uncommon practice.
I'm also looking forward to this. I enjoy the Korean tournaments more, but I'll enjoy this more than 1/2 and 1/2 events where the ro16 (minus 1 or 2) are predictable.
Don't get why people keep mentioning team sports having region locking. Last time I checked sc2 is played as an individual not a team sport. Plus it isn't competition with restricted "limited" amount of players from one region, but accepting every region but one effectively banning every Korean.
EDIT: Plus why are discussing policies of secondary leagues?
WCS Circuit: eligible countries and regions Europe, Africa, Middle East North America (USA, Canada) Latin America China Oceania, Southeast Asia, Japan Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau
Could've saved time and just wrote, EVERYONE BUT KOREANS.
I think the analogy is a lot closer than you think, since there are also team-sponsored Korean players who really will be eligible for the WCS Circuit. I understand the team/individual competition difference, but really the basic point is that region locking will diminish the quality of competition. Nobody argues that this isn't the case.
I'm just trying to point out that people, for various interesting reasons, still have a lot of fun watching sports competitions and leagues that, because of player nationality restrictions, are clearly not the absolute highest levels of competition available I'm one of those people for other sports, so I'm at least willing to give WCS Circuit events a try.
EDIT: And the bigger point, for people who are worried about the state of the game, is that many of these region-locked sports leagues are also successful in their own rights. Another example is KBO itself, with its American player limitation
Those analogies have some merit, but there are some key differences. Those leagues are supposed to be national leagues that are almost branches/feeders for the top league. That is where many people differ in their idea of what WCS/Blizzcon is meant to be. For those that feel like it is meant as a Blizzard project and just another tournament are justified in the analogy. For those that feel like WCS is supposed to be the league to determine the best of the best might feel cheated of their ultimate competition. While most here seem to just promote those people to just watch GSL/SSL, it isn't the same as a true Global champion that they were hoping for out of a WCS.
Chess, golf, and tennis seemed to feel like the best competitions to emulate imo. Chasing the shadows of soccer, basketball, football, ect is the role of team games like LoL and CSGO.
On December 22 2015 07:10 Clonester wrote: Good thing that I dont got my tickets yet or else I had to sell them.
So much this. Was actually planning to go with my gf, but given that it's gonna be foreigners only we won't go. I was really looking forward to DH coming to Germany as I very much so prefer their events over ESL's (at least when it comes to attending in person), but all my favourite players are Kespa Koreans and I don't really see any point in going now.
Hold on let me go get the Violin because Kespa players went to Dreamhack so often 10/10 buddy
On December 22 2015 07:22 RCCar wrote: Hopefully there are like 80k viewers watching this or something so foreign scene can thrive.... This is gonna be WCS Circuit's first test.
One day we'll move from "more people watcihng - better the scene" leitmotif.
Won't happen tonight though.
You would think that with the popular well proclaimed "mature audience" that SC2 has, we wouldn't be running into high school mentality of "my esports has to be bigger than yours"
Dear desRow, I would like to tell you that unlike your thoughts, things aren't always about bragging rights.
More audience generally leads to more sponsors, which will lead to bigger, more leagues, etc, a generally bigger pie. Hopefully you know about AirForce ACE. Would ACE have been created, if StarCraft was just another random game out there with only PC Bang leagues? Of course not! The mass public(in Korea) viewed it, Boxer was almost like a movie star, and the government officials had to acknowledge that StarCraft was a profitable content to the point that it would be better to make a progaming team and preserve players rather then lose them to military service.
If nobody watches it, then there will be no sponsors. Sonic had to drop his SCBW league plans because there were no companies willing to sponsor a game that only few people watched. Of course, SC2 still has Blizzard holding the scene up, but this can't, and shouldn't, go on forever. So in conclusion, yes desRow, I definitely would like a big eSports scene. It is one of the biggest things that determine a status of an eSport. This is not about a game having class and depth. Its about a game being thrown out there to the public. No matter how good a game is, It is no use if nobody plays it. Drop the "viewer counts don't matter, this game has class." attitude please. It's strictly money, which will in return profit the progamers. I understand some people think SC2 is like tennis, but it still better earn way more money than what players are earning right now for it to continue as a viable eSport.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Competition isn't important to a lot of these people. They just want koreans gone.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Competition isn't important to a lot of these people. They just want koreans gone.
It is sickening to see these types of tweets from foreigner players, just trash attitude. While having a positive attitude about the new WCS system is reasonable response, coming out and proudly displaying anti-Korean agenda is pure garbage.
I think having more diversity at homestory cup (SEA/China/more NA Paid travel slots) will be awesome and not having 1 sided finals due to Koreans will be another welcomed change if Take is willing to take blizzard's money.
On December 22 2015 08:01 Seeker wrote: Sooooo... Do we get Koreans or not?
nope, says WCS circuit right there. Unless you mean polt/hydra
JD??
Dont have a clue where Jaedong is going.
We should know by the Code A qualifiers right?
On December 22 2015 09:42 Deathstar wrote:
On December 22 2015 09:38 ChillingFrog89 wrote:
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Competition isn't important to a lot of these people. They just want koreans gone.
It is sickening to see these types of tweets from foreigner players, just trash attitude. While having a positive attitude about the new WCS system is reasonable response, coming out and proudly displaying anti-Korean agenda is pure garbage.
I think having more diversity at homestory cup (SEA/China/more NA Paid travel slots) will be awesome and not having 1 sided finals due to Koreans will be another welcomed change if Take is willing to take blizzard's money.
> Asks for diversity > Asks for Take to kick out Koreans
Good, now I can do something else with my weekends since DH's are now irrelevant to the StarCraft world. They will just help produce the bottom 8 at the next Blizzon.
Pick 8 random foreigners for the bottom 8, we really don't need a year long league to select who will have the chance to get roflstomped.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Helping local scenes grow is important. It's the thing that gets brought up a lot, but if there is no "feeder" tournaments for the big leagues, then you don't promote growth.
I absolutely think that GSL and the leagues with the top players should be the most prestigious, but if I want to grow the say Canadian scene, and want to have a 100 dollar Canadian only, I'd like to be able to host that, without having a B-team Korean win it. It's nothing to do with Korea, it's just because they are on top, of other countries were on top, I'd have the same issue.
Especially the fact that these leagues are advertised as European and American leagues, and so few Koreans watch them in the first place. For the long term health of the scene, it needs to be done imo. I like having an esports idol that I can culturally relate to, and having a varying pool of nationalities is good.
I know many don't like my perspective, but it's necessary. Other sports don't really have this issue, since they are geographically locked, and Starcraft feels to have a massive surplus of pros to support. In tennis, someone eliminated in the Ro64 of a Gran Slam has no need to go play little tiny tournaments, but in Starcraft, if you're not in the Top 50 you get nothing, so it's in your best interests to play small online leagues.
On December 22 2015 08:26 feebas wrote: Earnestly hoping for good games. Still, kind of difficult to avoid going over to the doom and gloom crowd on this one.
"doom and gloom' probably only in TL, cause we're diehard fan
Who knows, maybe you'll be there and the crowd would be amazing
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Helping local scenes grow is important. It's the thing that gets brought up a lot, but if there is no "feeder" tournaments for the big leagues, then you don't promote growth.
I absolutely think that GSL and the leagues with the top players should be the most prestigious, but if I want to grow the say Canadian scene, and want to have a 100 dollar Canadian only, I'd like to be able to host that, without having a B-team Korean win it. It's nothing to do with Korea, it's just because they are on top, of other countries were on top, I'd have the same issue.
Especially the fact that these leagues are advertised as European and American leagues, and so few Koreans watch them in the first place. For the long term health of the scene, it needs to be done imo. I like having an esports idol that I can culturally relate to, and having a varying pool of nationalities is good.
I know many don't like my perspective, but it's necessary. Other sports don't really have this issue, since they are geographically locked, and Starcraft feels to have a massive surplus of pros to support. In tennis, someone eliminated in the Ro64 of a Gran Slam has no need to go play little tiny tournaments, but in Starcraft, if you're not in the Top 50 you get nothing, so it's in your best interests to play small online leagues.
Anyway, looking forward to how this turns out.
The issue is that this is doing it at the cost of the Korean scene. If the Korean scene is relegated to GSL / SSL KeSPA Cup only, there's going to be a pretty damn impossible barrier to break for anyone trying to make it in Korea. Hopefully with Olimoleague / Leifeng Cup there'll be enough there to stop an immediate wave of retirements, but it's still not the healthiest setup.
The only convincing argument for region locking WCS is that it helps to support up and coming players national scenes; why then is this done at the expense of the deepest, best, and most entertaining scene in the world? Why not set up additional tiered tournaments in Korea - restoring Code A to tournament format would be a great start. Why not keep your big three WCS Season events as foreigner only, and keep the rest as a free for all?
Why simultaneously decry the fact that failing in Challenger last year in WCS (ShoWTimE was the example Apollo brought up) deprived players of opportunities for months at a time, while cutting down Korean leagues by almost 50% (given truncated SSL)? It's an especially outrageous claim given international premier tournaments were open to all foreigners last year; a fact that's clearly not reciprocal for Koreans in 2016.
I appreciate the fact that they're trying to help out the foreigner scene; what I don't is the blatant double standards employed.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Helping local scenes grow is important. It's the thing that gets brought up a lot, but if there is no "feeder" tournaments for the big leagues, then you don't promote growth.
I absolutely think that GSL and the leagues with the top players should be the most prestigious, but if I want to grow the say Canadian scene, and want to have a 100 dollar Canadian only, I'd like to be able to host that, without having a B-team Korean win it. It's nothing to do with Korea, it's just because they are on top, of other countries were on top, I'd have the same issue.
Especially the fact that these leagues are advertised as European and American leagues, and so few Koreans watch them in the first place. For the long term health of the scene, it needs to be done imo. I like having an esports idol that I can culturally relate to, and having a varying pool of nationalities is good.
I know many don't like my perspective, but it's necessary. Other sports don't really have this issue, since they are geographically locked, and Starcraft feels to have a massive surplus of pros to support. In tennis, someone eliminated in the Ro64 of a Gran Slam has no need to go play little tiny tournaments, but in Starcraft, if you're not in the Top 50 you get nothing, so it's in your best interests to play small online leagues.
Anyway, looking forward to how this turns out.
I agree with what you are saying, and that could have been one of my posts only 24 hours ago. If you want to grow the canadian scene, I am perfectly fine with having tournaments exclusive for canadians, and it may even work, who knows. So I'd be fine if they restricted to EU server area in a DH in Europe for example. Great. Go for it.
But then I realised that they do let in people from all the world: NA, china, Taiwan, everywhere. Only not Korea. So the "local scene" of DH in Europe includes NA, China and Taiwan, but not Korea? Are Europeans expected to have a stronger connection to Chinese players than Korean players? It doesn't make any sense... You can't declare the entire world minus Korea as "the local scene" for this purpose.
So yeah, I agree with what you are saying. I said the exact same thing myself several times not long ago. But it doesn't apply to this case. What they are doing here is pushing the definition of "the local scene" far beyond what makes sense, to where it in practice means excluding a single country.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
Isn't tournament suppose to be a test of competitiveness and skill? what they are doing is avoiding real competition and the most skilled players from korea, Should WCS circuit be called tournament anymore? or renamed as WCS charity ceremony for the less skilled. it is disgraceful for both foreigner and korean to face policy like this
Helping local scenes grow is important. It's the thing that gets brought up a lot, but if there is no "feeder" tournaments for the big leagues, then you don't promote growth.
I absolutely think that GSL and the leagues with the top players should be the most prestigious, but if I want to grow the say Canadian scene, and want to have a 100 dollar Canadian only, I'd like to be able to host that, without having a B-team Korean win it. It's nothing to do with Korea, it's just because they are on top, of other countries were on top, I'd have the same issue.
Especially the fact that these leagues are advertised as European and American leagues, and so few Koreans watch them in the first place. For the long term health of the scene, it needs to be done imo. I like having an esports idol that I can culturally relate to, and having a varying pool of nationalities is good.
I know many don't like my perspective, but it's necessary. Other sports don't really have this issue, since they are geographically locked, and Starcraft feels to have a massive surplus of pros to support. In tennis, someone eliminated in the Ro64 of a Gran Slam has no need to go play little tiny tournaments, but in Starcraft, if you're not in the Top 50 you get nothing, so it's in your best interests to play small online leagues.
Anyway, looking forward to how this turns out.
The issue is that this is doing it at the cost of the Korean scene. If the Korean scene is relegated to GSL / SSL KeSPA Cup only, there's going to be a pretty damn impossible barrier to break for anyone trying to make it in Korea. Hopefully with Olimoleague / Leifeng Cup there'll be enough there to stop an immediate wave of retirements, but it's still not the healthiest setup.
The only convincing argument for region locking WCS is that it helps to support up and coming players national scenes; why then is this done at the expense of the deepest, best, and most entertaining scene in the world? Why not set up additional tiered tournaments in Korea - restoring Code A to tournament format would be a great start. Why not keep your big three WCS Season events as foreigner only, and keep the rest as a free for all?
Why simultaneously decry the fact that failing in Challenger last year in WCS (ShoWTimE was the example Apollo brought up) deprived players of opportunities for months at a time, while cutting down Korean leagues by almost 50% (given truncated SSL)? It's an especially outrageous claim given international premier tournaments were open to all foreigners last year; a fact that's clearly not reciprocal for Koreans in 2016.
I appreciate the fact that they're trying to help out the foreigner scene; what I don't is the blatant double standards employed.
Also, don't forget the fact that WCS is far more heavily funded than the GSL and SSL; 25th-32nd places get $4500, while those who fail in Challenger get $2000; for an element of comparison, 3-4th in GSL and SSL gets you $3610 and $4061, respectively. The total prize pool for WCS per season in 2015 was $281 000, and for the GSL and SSL it was $84 471 and $67 685 respectively.
I'm so shocked that a lot of people thinks this Korean-dominated scene is healthy. I thouhg everyone think this should be fixed. It is no doubt Korean is destroying the global scene and popularity of this game(of course, it's not Korean's fault, but Blizzard's bad 2013 WCS system). If you doubt, ask other e-sports title fan how do they think Korean-dominated scene. LoL fan was crazy about Korean vs Korean final, even though a lot of foreign team participates Worlds.
Blizzard finally start to fix this with this sysytem. This may lose a lot (Korean talent, viewers, possibly sponsors...) but this is what must be done someday. 8 WCS circuit player destroyed by WCS Korean player? What is the problem? In football worldcup, only Europe/south America team will win, but half of spot is given for Asia/Africa/North Amreica(14.5 or 15.5/32 ). Asian team rarely make good decision, but they have 4.5 spot. At least in Blizzcon, bottom 8 player will not appear, they appear only small studio 1 week before Blizzcon. I don't know what is the problem. You want 12-hour-long Bo5×8 day at the cost of this game's future?
You may think it's ok if SC2 becomes Korean local e-sports(just like BW), but at least Blizzard and some fan don't think so.
The new WCS system has many problems. Yes, one of the problems is that we won't see Korean players at foreign events. Another issue is that it seems Korea can't host its own circuit events unless they are global events and then have to have qualifiers open to everyone even foreigners. Outside of Korea then there's no incentive for organisers to host global events as they get no prize pool help and support from Blizzard. Organisers because of this are then discouraged from hosting events with Koreans in as they can cut costs by not having them apart of the system.
Which brings me on to the main problem, WCS will have 11 tournaments this year restricted to foreigners, Korea will have 5 it remains to be seen whether there will be another. Therefore, there will be chances for up and coming foreigners because of all the support from Blizzard whether it be travel or prize pool. The Korean system on the other hand just works on a rich get richer system. If you're a new rookie starting out in Korea you have basically no chance to make it. There are limited tournaments a year and in it you'll face people who have specialised practice and have been playing the game for years. How can you succeed in a system that deliberately makes it difficult for you to get a chance? The current rookies share a similar problem as less tournaments mean less time to get yourself out there which means less opportunities to earn money which then encourages retirement. The chance of us seeing Guilty, SpeeD, Dynamite is greatly reduced. The new WCS system might help and support new foreigners but it stops the chance of us finding and seeing new Korean talent have a miracle run.
From what I see it is just residency which is required, Koreans are not locked out, they just have to commit to go longterm to a foreign country to play WCS, just as foreigners would have to commit to go to Korea to be able to have somewhat equal practice opportunities. So what's the big deal, they can just move.
On December 22 2015 16:59 Horiken wrote: I'm so shocked that a lot of people thinks this Korean-dominated scene is healthy. I thouhg everyone think this should be fixed. It is no doubt Korean is destroying the global scene and popularity of this game(of course, it's not Korean's fault, but Blizzard's bad 2013 WCS system). If you doubt, ask other e-sports title fan how do they think Korean-dominated scene. LoL fan was crazy about Korean vs Korean final, even though a lot of foreign team participates Worlds.
Blizzard finally start to fix this with this sysytem. This may lose a lot (Korean talent, viewers, possibly sponsors...) but this is what must be done someday. 8 WCS circuit player destroyed by WCS Korean player? What is the problem? In football worldcup, only Europe/south America team will win, but half of spot is given for Asia/Africa/North Amreica(14.5 or 15.5/32 ). Asian team rarely make good decision, but they have 4.5 spot. At least in Blizzcon, bottom 8 player will not appear, they appear only small studio 1 week before Blizzcon. I don't know what is the problem. You want 12-hour-long Bo5×8 day at the cost of this game's future?
You may think it's ok if SC2 becomes Korean local e-sports(just like BW), but at least Blizzard and some fan don't think so.
For the love of god when will people understand that our problem is not with helping foreign talents but it is with fucking over the Korean scene?!
You took away DH and IEM and any other premier possible tournament from the Koreans for the sake of foreigners. But what did they do to compensate? Absolutely nothing! instead, GSL and SSL got less seasons and SSL turned into a KeSPA cup with higher prize pool!
good thing my only issue with the new system is that they went from hey koreans move over and help the rest of the world improve, into nope sorry you gotta go within a few years.
But I am curious if some Mondragon's or Grubby's or Stephano's can still arise. Or if this Koreans are to good mentality we saw at Blizzcon will become the norm.
On December 22 2015 17:46 FeyFey wrote: good thing my only issue with the new system is that they went from hey koreans move over and help the rest of the world improve, into nope sorry you gotta go within a few years.
But I am curious if some Mondragon's or Grubby's or Stephano's can still arise. Or if this Koreans are to good mentality we saw at Blizzcon will become the norm.
Lilbow will train so hard that he will win the next blizzcon.
On December 22 2015 16:59 Horiken wrote: I'm so shocked that a lot of people thinks this Korean-dominated scene is healthy. I thouhg everyone think this should be fixed. It is no doubt Korean is destroying the global scene and popularity of this game(of course, it's not Korean's fault, but Blizzard's bad 2013 WCS system). If you doubt, ask other e-sports title fan how do they think Korean-dominated scene. LoL fan was crazy about Korean vs Korean final, even though a lot of foreign team participates Worlds.
Blizzard finally start to fix this with this sysytem. This may lose a lot (Korean talent, viewers, possibly sponsors...) but this is what must be done someday. 8 WCS circuit player destroyed by WCS Korean player? What is the problem? In football worldcup, only Europe/south America team will win, but half of spot is given for Asia/Africa/North Amreica(14.5 or 15.5/32 ). Asian team rarely make good decision, but they have 4.5 spot. At least in Blizzcon, bottom 8 player will not appear, they appear only small studio 1 week before Blizzcon. I don't know what is the problem. You want 12-hour-long Bo5×8 day at the cost of this game's future?
You may think it's ok if SC2 becomes Korean local e-sports(just like BW), but at least Blizzard and some fan don't think so.
it may be healthy for the foreigner scene but i don't really care. All my favourite players are koreans and without koreans there is no point in watching it. last year I already didn't watch WCS premier except for semifinals/finals despite watching nearly every game of gsl/ssl/proleague. Those players just aren't interesting for me.
On December 22 2015 17:46 FeyFey wrote: But I am curious if some Mondragon's or Grubby's or Stephano's can still arise. Or if this Koreans are to good mentality we saw at Blizzcon will become the norm.
Don't you mention Stephano and WCS Curcuit together. Stephano played against Koreans all over the world and beat them to win his titles, went to Korea to compete in GSL (and was a Code S player) and has a winning record in Proleague. He is exactly the opposite of current system.
Why do they play only the losers bracket at DreamHack in Leipzig? It is weird to say: "You won, so you are out." This will become a "Losers watching losers" event.
On December 22 2015 08:46 FiWiFaKi wrote: Looks really good, I'm really looking forward to this.
Don't see why everyone is being so negative, there are plenty of Korean leagues if that's what you'd like to see.
4 a year. Ok.
Well then. Not watching anything that isn't a KR league will be : "not watching anything live" now.
Oh well. Time to go back on BW sincee the best player i will see on WE tournament will be Lilbow or something.
French can't watch Proleague? That's too bad...
Monday and Tuesday at 10am. I have a thing called work. And watching French cast is like asking me to swallow a big full off spiders.
No KR at events is just plain stupid. I just don't get it.
Hey ! We don't like spanish. TOO STRONG !!! Hey Nadal ? You have French Residency ? No ? Then go fuck yourself for Rolland Garros.
Hey ! You dirty strangers ? French residecy ? Then shove your bike up your ass ! No tour de france for you..
Yup.. That sound about right. I wonder what people would say hum....
Na, it's more like: 'Spain too strong. Nadal, got a Spanish passport? You're out! Everyone's allowed to participate but Spanish guys!'
On December 22 2015 16:59 Horiken wrote: I'm so shocked that a lot of people thinks this Korean-dominated scene is healthy. I thouhg everyone think this should be fixed. It is no doubt Korean is destroying the global scene and popularity of this game(of course, it's not Korean's fault, but Blizzard's bad 2013 WCS system). If you doubt, ask other e-sports title fan how do they think Korean-dominated scene. LoL fan was crazy about Korean vs Korean final, even though a lot of foreign team participates Worlds.
Blizzard finally start to fix this with this sysytem. This may lose a lot (Korean talent, viewers, possibly sponsors...) but this is what must be done someday. 8 WCS circuit player destroyed by WCS Korean player? What is the problem? In football worldcup, only Europe/south America team will win, but half of spot is given for Asia/Africa/North Amreica(14.5 or 15.5/32 ). Asian team rarely make good decision, but they have 4.5 spot. At least in Blizzcon, bottom 8 player will not appear, they appear only small studio 1 week before Blizzcon. I don't know what is the problem. You want 12-hour-long Bo5×8 day at the cost of this game's future?
You may think it's ok if SC2 becomes Korean local e-sports(just like BW), but at least Blizzard and some fan don't think so.
Again the individual sports vs team sports comparison, which is bad, but your statement is wrong as well. Yes, Africa/Asia/North America get some spots, but if they are too weak to compete, they'll lose a spot. Good example: Oceania lost their only spot when Australia switched to Asia. FIFA does one thing right: They try to support football all over the world and they do so without screwing an entire region. If a region is stronger, they get more spots. The weaker regions get their representation as well, but only as long as they are not too weak to even stand a chance. Again: I don't think anyone is against the attempt to revive the foreign scene. The problem is that you're better off in EU/NA or the entire world than Korea, while Korea is by far the strongest region. That's like giving the Champion of the Oceanian continental championship more money than the European Champion and that's just ridiculous.
We need a healthy scene. But for a healthy scene, we need smaller local tournaments. Like, really local. Let's say some European tournaments where no one else is allowed to play. Some American tournaments where no one is allowed to play etc. But these tournaments shouldn't be as huge as DreamHack or IEM, because that's not how it should be done. And no other sports I can think of does it like that to support a weaker scene. Tennis for example has national championships. They're good to have, but as soon as you're good enough to participate in any Grand Slam tournaments, you don't really need them anymore. And this is how it should be in SCII as well. Some money has to be thrown at local heroes, but not on this big stage as it is done right now, but on a smaller stage to keep them motivated
And it's really nice to have a few foreigners at pre-Blizzcon. I don't argue that none should be there. What I do argue is that they don't deserve 8/16 spots. 3-4 would have been enough. Then we'd still have 12-13 Koreans there, which would not be too big of a deal, but having 8 players there which won't stand a chance in any of their games is just not healthy for the scene in general.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Oh...
I was making a joke based on the responses to this post :D The dreamhack experience for any foreigner in the past 2 years is pretty much this: You practice a ton and try your best, maybe if it's a really good day you beat some koreans in group stage 3 and get to the bracket stage, only to inevitably lose in the quarter finals to some strategies you've never played against before. It's gonna be nice to feel there's a chance to win this time.
Sorry, but LoL community seems better. At least they dont produce negative shit like you. The only way how to bring more players is to offer them more money which is exactly what WCS does. Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans. Tbh, sacrifice one or two years without Koreans and maybe we will get something like LoL has in their LCS - Worlds format. But it is always better to put a fight than just watch sc2 dying slowly. Because you know, thats what is happening.
On December 22 2015 16:59 Horiken wrote: I'm so shocked that a lot of people thinks this Korean-dominated scene is healthy. I thouhg everyone think this should be fixed. It is no doubt Korean is destroying the global scene and popularity of this game(of course, it's not Korean's fault, but Blizzard's bad 2013 WCS system). If you doubt, ask other e-sports title fan how do they think Korean-dominated scene. LoL fan was crazy about Korean vs Korean final, even though a lot of foreign team participates Worlds.
Blizzard finally start to fix this with this sysytem. This may lose a lot (Korean talent, viewers, possibly sponsors...) but this is what must be done someday. 8 WCS circuit player destroyed by WCS Korean player? What is the problem? In football worldcup, only Europe/south America team will win, but half of spot is given for Asia/Africa/North Amreica(14.5 or 15.5/32 ). Asian team rarely make good decision, but they have 4.5 spot. At least in Blizzcon, bottom 8 player will not appear, they appear only small studio 1 week before Blizzcon. I don't know what is the problem. You want 12-hour-long Bo5×8 day at the cost of this game's future?
You may think it's ok if SC2 becomes Korean local e-sports(just like BW), but at least Blizzard and some fan don't think so.
Again the individual sports vs team sports comparison, which is bad, but your statement is wrong as well. Yes, Africa/Asia/North America get some spots, but if they are too weak to compete, they'll lose a spot. Good example: Oceania lost their only spot when Australia switched to Asia. FIFA does one thing right: They try to support football all over the world and they do so without screwing an entire region. If a region is stronger, they get more spots. The weaker regions get their representation as well, but only as long as they are not too weak to even stand a chance. Again: I don't think anyone is against the attempt to revive the foreign scene. The problem is that you're better off in EU/NA or the entire world than Korea, while Korea is by far the strongest region. That's like giving the Champion of the Oceanian continental championship more money than the European Champion and that's just ridiculous.
We need a healthy scene. But for a healthy scene, we need smaller local tournaments. Like, really local. Let's say some European tournaments where no one else is allowed to play. Some American tournaments where no one is allowed to play etc. But these tournaments shouldn't be as huge as DreamHack or IEM, because that's not how it should be done. And no other sports I can think of does it like that to support a weaker scene. Tennis for example has national championships. They're good to have, but as soon as you're good enough to participate in any Grand Slam tournaments, you don't really need them anymore. And this is how it should be in SCII as well. Some money has to be thrown at local heroes, but not on this big stage as it is done right now, but on a smaller stage to keep them motivated
And it's really nice to have a few foreigners at pre-Blizzcon. I don't argue that none should be there. What I do argue is that they don't deserve 8/16 spots. 3-4 would have been enough. Then we'd still have 12-13 Koreans there, which would not be too big of a deal, but having 8 players there which won't stand a chance in any of their games is just not healthy for the scene in general.
On your last point I imagine if they didn't do the silly guarantee 8 spots for everyone else thing it would have worked out like you said.
With less Korean tournaments, and little to no Koreans travelling to steal all those DH/IEM points you'd get the best performing foreigners making it for sure.
Seems overkill to force 8 of them in. You could end up with some veeeery weak(relatively) players in the 16.
On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Sorry, but LoL community seems better. At least they dont produce negative shit like you. The only way how to bring more players is to offer them more money which is exactly what WCS does. Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans. Tbh, sacrifice one or two years without Koreans and maybe we will get something like LoL has in their LCS - Worlds format. But it is always better to put a fight than just watch sc2 dying slowly. Because you know, thats what is happening.
Did you watch LoL worlds? 3 Korean teams. Two made the grand final and the other got eliminated by another Korean team. They're just as Korean dominated as SC2 is right now.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Oh...
I was making a joke based on the responses to this post :D The dreamhack experience for any foreigner in the past 2 years is pretty much this: You practice a ton and try your best, maybe if it's a really good day you beat some koreans in group stage 3 and get to the bracket stage, only to inevitably lose in the quarter finals to some strategies you've never played against before. It's gonna be nice to feel there's a chance to win this time.
I don't think many people have a problem with a region lock per se, but what bothers me is that there is nothing being done to support the korean scene. 2 less seasons of GSL/SSL and all foreign tournaments are gone. Great...
So how is this helping the "local" scene (aka Germany, Europe) letting everyone from all over the world but Korea to play in this tournament? Does "local" means "everywhere in the world but Korea"?
Also I'm pretty sure that some teams were already planning to bring koreans to the tournament (TES comes in mind with TOP), I don't know if they've already bought tickets for plans and hotel but they're pretty screwed by this late announcement lol.
Can someone explain me how is this going to suppot "local heroes" as they said before? So, 8 players will get they trip payed, I assume 8 best progamers will take that, and what about rest 88 ? If someone wants to break out as a player he must pay his trip to Leipzig and try his luck? How this favours local heroes? Wasnt it better last year when you had several qualifiers for Challenger? It was absolutely free to play. Imagine some guy who is good at his game, maybe can pullout some surprise, but dont have money for trips to various tournaments like DH's or IEM's? I really didnt understood how new players can pop out if system stays like this.
There will not be like more small regionals qualifiers?
Well, one thing's for sure. The changes managed to divide the community and create some animosity between some fans and foreigner pros.
It's going to be interesting to see if the loosing of some viewers will be compensated by new "casual" viewers. The first tournament might have good numbers due to the novelty effect, but the next ones will be an interesting experiment.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Oh...
I was making a joke based on the responses to this post :D The dreamhack experience for any foreigner in the past 2 years is pretty much this: You practice a ton and try your best, maybe if it's a really good day you beat some koreans in group stage 3 and get to the bracket stage, only to inevitably lose in the quarter finals to some strategies you've never played against before. It's gonna be nice to feel there's a chance to win this time.
Sure but is the win the same if all the top competition is locked away ? I can win against my brother in a "nobody but us" tournament, does not make me any good.
As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
Btw can't wait to see Sen winning all the tournaments and then for WCS 2017 Blizzard be like "uuuh welll, taiwanese players are banned too because reasons"
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
I guess, you must be blind. Or you are on TL pages for a few days, right?
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Just for you:
On December 19 2015 19:23 Diabolique wrote: The initial reports were shocking, the official WCS system announcement frustrating and the IEM announcement that they will become WCS Welfare tournament just nailed it.
I understand the happiness of foreign players, they will have more money for much less work. I just hate their celebrations. For us, viewers, it is bad. But we could get used to it. We are angry now, at the end, we might watch WCS Welfare anyway, there are still good players, good guys like Snute and you can't not cheer for them (unless Snute starts celebrating the system as well).
But here is the real CATASTROPHY, DOOM AND GLOOM. This system completely fucked up with the Korean players. Imagine, you are working hard all your life to become one of the best players in the world. You give to it everything, your effort, your skills, all your time, your life. And you are successful and pay it back to all worldwide fans through the enjoyment of your game. That was 2015. As a Korean pro, you have participated in the following events:
1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra 2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans 3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN 4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN 5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol 6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG 7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy 8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt 9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark 10. GSL Season 1 11. SSL Season 1 12. GSL Season 2 13. SSL Season 2 14. GSL Season 3 15. SSL Season 3 16. Hot6ix Cup 17. Kespa Cup
It was a nice year. It was somehow balanced for the number of elite Korean pros. And now the new year, 2016. Where can you compete? The list is shorter: 1. GSL Season 1 2. SSL Season 1 3. GSL Season 2 4. SSL Season 2 5. Kespa Cup 6. HSC 7. One "Invitational" IEM closing the era of good IEMs + maybe Hot6ix Cup + maybe 1 "WCS Global Tournament"
This is for 12 months. If I were a Korean pro, I would be so pissed off. How the world fucked up with us ... This system wants to bring the foreigners' and Korean levels closer together. Not by improving the foreigners. But by damaging the Koreans. Less competitions. Less opportunities. Less players.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
On December 22 2015 21:05 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Do I understand that correctly, that no koreans at all may participate in this tournament, not even the ones who are living abroad?
These who live abroad still can, I don't think visa requirements changed since last system.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
I understand your points and agree with your stance, but I'm still trying to see good sides of the change. Regarding your last paragraph, paraphrasing it a bit:
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
I understand your points and agree with your stance, but I'm still trying to see good sides of the change. Regarding your last paragraph, paraphrasing it a bit:
Were I a young non-Korean, I wouldn't even try.
Exactly, but they are changing "Were I a young non-Korean, I wouldn't even try." into "Were I a young Korean, I wouldn't even try.". That is not correct.
On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans..
Actually, I think this will hurt the skill level of foreigners, if they don't compete against superior players on a regular basis. Think of BW: Foreigners almost never competed with koreans and the skill gap widened year after year.
This is true for every kind of sport: You will learn much more if you play against superior players than when you play against equal or worse players.
So much negativity for a tournament that didn't even have Starcraft II last year. This is a tournament with a great prizepool and it will be fun to watch. It's an extra live event with audience. It's something to be happy about not sad/mad.
On December 22 2015 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote: Well, one thing's for sure. The changes managed to divide the community and create some animosity between some fans and foreigner pros.
It's going to be interesting to see if the loosing of some viewers will be compensated by new "casual" viewers. The first tournament might have good numbers due to the novelty effect, but the next ones will be an interesting experiment.
That's what it will come down to. We vote with our eyeballs. Like I said before, I will be watching Hearthstone if it is on this DH.
On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Sorry, but LoL community seems better. At least they dont produce negative shit like you. The only way how to bring more players is to offer them more money which is exactly what WCS does. Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans. Tbh, sacrifice one or two years without Koreans and maybe we will get something like LoL has in their LCS - Worlds format. But it is always better to put a fight than just watch sc2 dying slowly. Because you know, thats what is happening.
foreigners will never be on par with koreans because practising in a low skilled environment doesn't make you a better player. just like the na lcs. they get smashed in groups at every international event although they imported koreans and riot fucked over the korean scene multiple times. the league community doesn't have 15 years of history with korean players, so they don't give a fuck about them.
Koreans aren't good just because they are Korean but because hard work pays off. I imagine them practicing 14 hrs a day and then they still have to cook soup and massage each others shoulders!
I'm not entirely sure it is good for the skill level of foreigners to shut out Koreans. I understand that it may boost the mindset but in the long run?
Do foreign teams work the same way as Korean teams with coaching and custom games etc?
On December 22 2015 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote: Well, one thing's for sure. The changes managed to divide the community and create some animosity between some fans and foreigner pros.
It's going to be interesting to see if the loosing of some viewers will be compensated by new "casual" viewers. The first tournament might have good numbers due to the novelty effect, but the next ones will be an interesting experiment.
That's what it will come down to. We vote with our eyeballs. Like I said before, I will be watching Hearthstone if it is on this DH.
At least Dreamhack CS:GO didnt not shut the door in the face of the best teams and players of the world.
On December 22 2015 21:22 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: So much negativity for a tournament that didn't even have Starcraft II last year. This is a tournament with a great prizepool and it will be fun to watch. It's an extra live event with audience. It's something to be happy about not sad/mad.
somehow not having Koreans is a bigger deal than not having any sc2... I choose to see the glass half full.
On December 22 2015 19:06 jeeeKyyy wrote: Get them our Europeans some money, get them hope they can finallly win. In the best scenario they will start practising harder and eventually they will win against your praised Koreans..
Actually, I think this will hurt the skill level of foreigners, if they don't compete against superior players on a regular basis. Think of BW: Foreigners almost never competed with koreans and the skill gap widened year after year.
This is true for every kind of sport: You will learn much more if you play against superior players than when you play against equal or worse players.
I believe you have in mind only foreigners who are professional from before 2012 or something. I also wonder why do you believe tournament games can be considered practice. I always thought that tournaments were a place that you practice for.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
On December 22 2015 06:36 Lemartes wrote: I hope polt goes there and just wins it, would be so much fun to have another year with no foreign champ, especially with the new system
People like you are what's wrong with this community. It's fine to prefer Koreans and not like the current system much, but your mindset is just vile and toxic.
No, people like you are what's wrong with this community. Some of us just want to watch the best Starcraft without jingoism and racism attached to it. That you think a system like that could be created without experiencing a backlash is just laughable.
Boo hoo, the yellow skins are taking all the prize money and not leaving anything for the white skins. Need affirmative action for the white skins.
Sure bro. You keep on trucking. I'll keep on hating on some yellow skins.
I think there is a big bridge in communication here. I don't think many, if any would've been that upset if Blizzard turned WCS into a foreigner only tournament. It is the fact that they are forcing normal tournaments to conform to the exclusionary policy of one ethnicity for WCS Circuit support. Even this was somewhat fine, because there is supposed to be WCS Global right? No, they made WCS Global an extremely difficult tournament to set up financially as well as create a large amount of requirements that are very difficult for tournaments to meet especially considering they will have to create without financial support.
If they made WCS Global a practically tournament to run, it would hardly be seen as a problem.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
On December 22 2015 22:27 Nerchio wrote: So there is only 2 spots for EU that are paid and the rest has to go for open qualifier at the place?
As I understood, there is no "Openqualifier".
There are a total of 96 slots in the tournament (just like every other D.H. Open.) , 3 Groupstages (where "Pros" just join the 2nd Groupstage, while not so famous ones start in the first one.) and then Playoffs from R016 onwoards. The 8 Qualifierslots will give the qualified players total travel payment, while the other 88 player just travel to the event like last year at D.H. Valenca and other D.H. events. Other then the payment, all qualified players are equal to the players who just travel to the event and play there.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
At least tell me snute is going....
He's a filthy foreigner, what do you care?
No, you are a filthy foreigner! Snute is already half Korean, regretting he cannot play other Koreans. When Blizzard finds it out, he will be banned from the tournaments as well ;-)
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote: [quote] You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote: [quote] You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
I came up with another funny solution for WCS 2016 to make everyone happy: once a player wins a tournament, he should be blocked from entering any other tournament until Blizzcon. That way more Koreans have a chance!
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
Yeah it seems mainly an NA issue to be honest from what I hear. Your right I do believe most of the GEM players and mYi players would play on EU, this is probably why the EU scene seems to be a lot more competative than the NA scene.
I think the Koreans based in NA would just rather play on Korea server with higher ping, or so I gathered.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
Yeah it seems mainly an NA issue to be honest from what I hear. Your right I do believe most of the GEM players and mYi players would play on EU, this is probably why the EU scene seems to be a lot more competative than the NA scene.
I think the Koreans based in NA would just rather play on Korea server with higher ping, or so I gathered.
Yeah, I agree. Unless there is a real incentive in playing local ladder, Koreans (I mean the majority or just the currently best ones) will never willingly play anywhere else than in their own region. I'm not even sure if money would fix that, as TB's solution proposed.
And to counter an argument that foreigners playing with foreigners will hurt the overall player-base skill-wise, wouldn't the situation where Koreans play foreigners hurt Korean skill level? Wouldn't the "pure" skill got worse if they weren't forced to compete that hard, while they would be the best in the region?
On another note what is Blizzards stance on foreigners going to practice in Korea, am I right in understanding that under the new system someone like Harstem who has just been to Korea to practice would not be able to attend EU events untill he had been back living in EU for at least a month? This seems really strange and many foreigners go to Korea to practice but then barring them from events in EU when they get back until they had resided in EU for at least a month would surely negate much of the practice.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
Yeah it seems mainly an NA issue to be honest from what I hear. Your right I do believe most of the GEM players and mYi players would play on EU, this is probably why the EU scene seems to be a lot more competative than the NA scene.
I think the Koreans based in NA would just rather play on Korea server with higher ping, or so I gathered.
Yeah, I agree. Unless there is a real incentive in playing local ladder, Koreans will never willingly play anywhere else than in their own region. I'm not even sure if money would fix that, as TB's solution proposed.
They should just offer WCS points to the top ladder player like they do in Hearthstone. Make it so that Koreans have incentive to get high rankings on whatever ladder they can. Maybe even offer double the points if they got high ranking on multiple ladders simultaneously.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 19:56 Diabolique wrote: [quote] You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
Yeah it seems mainly an NA issue to be honest from what I hear. Your right I do believe most of the GEM players and mYi players would play on EU, this is probably why the EU scene seems to be a lot more competative than the NA scene.
I think the Koreans based in NA would just rather play on Korea server with higher ping, or so I gathered.
The NA Koreans werent even in NA. There was just no reason. WCS NA was played on NA server, but you could connect from Kr with decent ping to them. So they played Qualifier, Challanger and Ro32 from Kr and just took a flight for Ro16 and onowards. They never had a reason to actually go to NA. And when they went to NA, like Polt or later Hydra 2015, they connected to the Kr server and played there. (Something, that alot of NA foreigners could do too). In WCS EU, you had a harsh time playing qualifier, challanger and Ro32, because the ping from Kr to EU is just way to high (if you arent extremly lucky). Thats why EU players cant play on Kr. So most of the players, who wanted to play in WCS EU, moved over. Also EU had the infrastructure and teams/orgs, who payed these players, gave them a teamhouse and thus a home. A.I. with Patience and Golden, mYi with Sacsri, Jjakji and Stardust, GEM with HyuN (who lived in Germany but played WCS AM), MC, First and Yoda as also Millenium with ForGG (tho he lived alone). The only player in 2014, who didnt live in EU but played in the league, was San. And 2015, with the 2014 system, True, Fantasy and some of the Invasion esports guys would have moved to EU. As maybe also Rain (but maybe not).
From EU perspective, I liked WCS 2014 the most. Yeah, Koreans didnt have 2 star Leagues, but they did not need em, GSL gave more money but also Koreans could leave korea and move to EU, where they only played on EU server. NA was fucked, because the Koreans neither had to move to NA nor to play on that server once they had a NA master account. But this was a NA problem. Togeather with giving Challanger and Ro32 more money, I think 2015 could have been that year for the EU scene. Instead we lost all koreans on our ladder.
Just forgot, MMA was acutally also living in Germany 2014, at least for months.
When you say, Koreans will lose their skill by playing EU or NA ladder, thats only true when you got only one or 2 there. But we had over 10 Koreans on EU ladder, that should be enough to maintain the skill of the koreans and give the Foreigners a daily based competition with the Koreans and improve them.
And the koreans didnt lose that much skill. MMA looked strong in GSL 2015, Patience slaughtered his way through the korean qualifier of IEM Kato 2015. HyuN made it into SSL and GSL. There were enough koreans in Europe to maintain there skill while giving foreigners a daily competion.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote: [quote]
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
Soulkey is a GSL champion. He can always do well.
He can, of course he can. And sOs is a triple world champion. And I am afraid, he will not do well with 4 possibilities in a year, where he already lost one.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
Yeah it seems mainly an NA issue to be honest from what I hear. Your right I do believe most of the GEM players and mYi players would play on EU, this is probably why the EU scene seems to be a lot more competative than the NA scene.
I think the Koreans based in NA would just rather play on Korea server with higher ping, or so I gathered.
Yeah, I agree. Unless there is a real incentive in playing local ladder, Koreans (I mean the majority or just the currently best ones) will never willingly play anywhere else than in their own region. I'm not even sure if money would fix that, as TB's solution proposed.
And to counter an argument that foreigners playing with foreigners will hurt the overall player-base skill-wise, wouldn't the situation where Koreans play foreigners hurt Korean skill level? Wouldn't the "pure" skill got worse if they weren't forced to compete that hard, while they would be the best in the region?
Hehe, well, Life's skill did not get worse by playing Lilbow three times in a row :-)
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:05 aQuaSC wrote: [quote]
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
Some of this also seems really bad for fan's. Say I like Jin Air GreenWings and their players are my favorite but I live in EU. When can I go to a live tournament and ever meet any of these players or watch them live? Now you would either have to travel to Korea or Blizzcon, which is pretty much as far away.
I wonder if their will be any tournaments held that are not affiliated to WCS so they can invite Europeans and Koreans??
Perhaps the online cups that do not have draconian player restrictions will become better supported.
As a few of the previous posts have stated having Koreans move over to EU in 2014 and participate here made the scene stronger in the opinion of many.
On December 22 2015 23:26 Ve5pa wrote: Some of this also seems really bad for fan's. Say I like Jin Air GreenWings and their players are my favorite but I live in EU. When can I go to a live tournament and ever meet any of these players or watch them live? Now you would either have to travel to Korea or Blizzcon, which is pretty much as far away.
I wonder if their will be any tournaments held that are not affiliated to WCS so they can invite Europeans and Koreans??
Perhaps the online cups that do not have draconian player restrictions will become better supported.
As a few of the previous posts have stated having Koreans move over to EU in 2014 and participate here made the scene stronger in the opinion of many.
My highest hope is HSC XIII in the Summer. The leagues wount again make TaKes and NarutOs live harder with setting preaseason and qualifiers on the same weekend then the Event and with much less tournaments to go anyway, I believe that more Kespa Koreans will be more likely to travel over. Other then that, when we dont find a billionare spending some money, I dont see how you will see a Event in Europe with in korea living players.
On December 22 2015 06:29 ZAiNs wrote: So it seems like 'WCS Global Events' will be a rarity and aren't intended to be a significant part of the WCS system .
I mean, wasn't that obvious to begin with?
Apollo was going talking on reddit how there will be tons of WCS global stuff for Koreans to compete in so it doesn't matter that there are only 4 leagues in Korea anymore...
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote: [quote]
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
Well, the foreigners will go to IEMs and DHs, where the koreans will not go. And that will help the to get the confidence and also some money.That will be good for them.
See its the same with foreigners and the new system.
Maybe b-tier koreans will be screwed by the new system but they already have the best practice environment and infrastructure to become the best where as foreigners don't.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote: [quote]
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
It's really sad that Blizzard has made some of these changes, encouraging the best players to come to EU or NA and compete their seems like a good thing to me. Imagine this in football (soccer for the yanks) if south americans were banned because they were too OP, imagine no Messi or Aguerro.
Also if you think eSports can't be compared to 'real sports' you could look at League of Legends, NA was/is shit so they imported Europeans and a few Koreans, their NA LCS has gotten better, well more entertaining to watch at least. In EU they also allow imports, the team that utilised those imports most effectively, Fnatic, got to semi finals of the world championship, Origen didn't have any Koreans but they sure practiced against them and teams with Koreans on in scrims and they got to the semi finals as well. imports are limited to 2 per team of 5 for those unfamiliar with LoL.
On December 22 2015 23:43 Ve5pa wrote: It's really sad that Blizzard has made some of these changes, encouraging the best players to come to EU or NA and compete their seems like a good thing to me. Imagine this in football (soccer for the yanks) if south americans were banned because they were too OP, imagine no Messi or Aguerro.
Also if you think eSports can't be compared to 'real sports' you could look at League of Legends, NA was/is shit so they imported Europeans and a few Koreans, their NA LCS has gotten better, well more entertaining to watch at least. In EU they also allow imports, the team that utilised those imports most effectively, Fnatic, got to semi finals of the world championship, Origen didn't have any Koreans but they sure practiced against them and teams with Koreans on in scrims and they got to the semi finals as well. imports are limited to 2 per team of 5 for those unfamiliar with LoL.
On December 22 2015 23:43 Ve5pa wrote: It's really sad that Blizzard has made some of these changes, encouraging the best players to come to EU or NA and compete their seems like a good thing to me. Imagine this in football (soccer for the yanks) if south americans were banned because they were too OP, imagine no Messi or Aguerro.
Also if you think eSports can't be compared to 'real sports' you could look at League of Legends, NA was/is shit so they imported Europeans and a few Koreans, their NA LCS has gotten better, well more entertaining to watch at least. In EU they also allow imports, the team that utilised those imports most effectively, Fnatic, got to semi finals of the world championship, Origen didn't have any Koreans but they sure practiced against them and teams with Koreans on in scrims and they got to the semi finals as well. imports are limited to 2 per team of 5 for those unfamiliar with LoL.
It's residency as requirement, they can come.
It is not just residency, we had residency. You need either a student, working or sports visa. Taking for example germany:
The koreans often left school with 15 to become a progamer and cannot just go to a university. They also dont want to study here, but want to be a full time pro in Germany, thus student visa does not work. E-Sport-Pros do not get sports visa in Germany. Working visa: Extremly complicated. As progamers are no sports athlets in germany, someone has to actually pay them like normal workers. But then the gouvernment checks if there arent any german unemployed people who could also do the job. And then you have to pay per month a large amount of payment to the progamer or it could also be illegal.
There is a reason why all residency koreans live in America while nobody lives europe. ForGG was only there due to the ForGG rule in the WCS handbook.
Residency like Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Sacsri, Jjakji and Stardust have been made impossible. So stop saying residency is the only requirement and they could just move their home here.
On December 22 2015 23:43 Ve5pa wrote: It's really sad that Blizzard has made some of these changes, encouraging the best players to come to EU or NA and compete their seems like a good thing to me. Imagine this in football (soccer for the yanks) if south americans were banned because they were too OP, imagine no Messi or Aguerro.
Also if you think eSports can't be compared to 'real sports' you could look at League of Legends, NA was/is shit so they imported Europeans and a few Koreans, their NA LCS has gotten better, well more entertaining to watch at least. In EU they also allow imports, the team that utilised those imports most effectively, Fnatic, got to semi finals of the world championship, Origen didn't have any Koreans but they sure practiced against them and teams with Koreans on in scrims and they got to the semi finals as well. imports are limited to 2 per team of 5 for those unfamiliar with LoL.
It's residency as requirement, they can come.
It is not just residency, we had residency. You need either a student, working or sports visa. Taking for example germany:
The koreans often left school with 15 to become a progamer and cannot just go to a university. They also dont want to study here, but want to be a full time pro in Germany, thus student visa does not work. E-Sport-Pros do not get sports visa in Germany. Working visa: Extremly complicated. As progamers are no sports athlets in germany, someone has to actually pay them like normal workers. But then the gouvernment checks if there arent any german unemployed people who could also do the job. And then you have to pay per month a large amount of payment to the progamer or it could also be illegal.
There is a reason why all residency koreans live in America while nobody lives europe. ForGG was only there due to the ForGG rule in the WCS handbook.
Residency like Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Sacsri, Jjakji and Stardust have been made impossible. So stop saying residency is the only requirement and they could just move their home here.
so basically people need to have proper visa like other people who work in other countries need...
On December 22 2015 17:28 Liquid`Bunny wrote: I was gonna go but now with no koreans i don't care anymore
Haha, this made me laugh xD
But those tweets from the full of salt North Americans didn't, really sad to see that. Backhanded compliment from iNcontrol as well.
IMO Blizzard should give the fans what they want, and clearly many people want to see Koreans at foreign events.
Half of the issue a lot of pro's seem to have is the Koreans that have the right to play like Polt don't play on their local ladders and therefore don't contribute to that community getting better. I know total Biscuit had some ideas about this he went over in a soundcloud piece.
We acutally had Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Jjakji, Stardust, Sacsri and ForGG playing all day on the Europen ladder. We kicked their asses back to korea.
Not to mention, that Fantasy and True were ready to move over. Even Rain. And the Invasion Esports Koreans. We shut the door right in their face.
Yeah it seems mainly an NA issue to be honest from what I hear. Your right I do believe most of the GEM players and mYi players would play on EU, this is probably why the EU scene seems to be a lot more competative than the NA scene.
I think the Koreans based in NA would just rather play on Korea server with higher ping, or so I gathered.
Yeah, I agree. Unless there is a real incentive in playing local ladder, Koreans (I mean the majority or just the currently best ones) will never willingly play anywhere else than in their own region. I'm not even sure if money would fix that, as TB's solution proposed.
And to counter an argument that foreigners playing with foreigners will hurt the overall player-base skill-wise, wouldn't the situation where Koreans play foreigners hurt Korean skill level? Wouldn't the "pure" skill got worse if they weren't forced to compete that hard, while they would be the best in the region?
Hehe, well, Life's skill did not get worse by playing Lilbow three times in a row :-)
Heh, we still have different opinion on tournament games versus practice. Can you tell me how tournament games can be considered practice? :>
On December 22 2015 23:43 Ve5pa wrote: It's really sad that Blizzard has made some of these changes, encouraging the best players to come to EU or NA and compete their seems like a good thing to me. Imagine this in football (soccer for the yanks) if south americans were banned because they were too OP, imagine no Messi or Aguerro.
Also if you think eSports can't be compared to 'real sports' you could look at League of Legends, NA was/is shit so they imported Europeans and a few Koreans, their NA LCS has gotten better, well more entertaining to watch at least. In EU they also allow imports, the team that utilised those imports most effectively, Fnatic, got to semi finals of the world championship, Origen didn't have any Koreans but they sure practiced against them and teams with Koreans on in scrims and they got to the semi finals as well. imports are limited to 2 per team of 5 for those unfamiliar with LoL.
It's residency as requirement, they can come.
It is not just residency, we had residency. You need either a student, working or sports visa. Taking for example germany:
The koreans often left school with 15 to become a progamer and cannot just go to a university. They also dont want to study here, but want to be a full time pro in Germany, thus student visa does not work. E-Sport-Pros do not get sports visa in Germany. Working visa: Extremly complicated. As progamers are no sports athlets in germany, someone has to actually pay them like normal workers. But then the gouvernment checks if there arent any german unemployed people who could also do the job. And then you have to pay per month a large amount of payment to the progamer or it could also be illegal.
There is a reason why all residency koreans live in America while nobody lives europe. ForGG was only there due to the ForGG rule in the WCS handbook.
Residency like Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Sacsri, Jjakji and Stardust have been made impossible. So stop saying residency is the only requirement and they could just move their home here.
so basically people need to have proper visa like other people who work in other countries need...
Then your argument, "they can come" is invalid, as they cannot come as being a e-sport athlet is not just a normal job. Also thats not true, as the 2014 generation of EU Koreans had proper visa, the so called holiday&work visa, which was enough for the german state and allowed them to work. But Blizzard decided that these visa are not enough.
On December 22 2015 23:43 Ve5pa wrote: It's really sad that Blizzard has made some of these changes, encouraging the best players to come to EU or NA and compete their seems like a good thing to me. Imagine this in football (soccer for the yanks) if south americans were banned because they were too OP, imagine no Messi or Aguerro.
Also if you think eSports can't be compared to 'real sports' you could look at League of Legends, NA was/is shit so they imported Europeans and a few Koreans, their NA LCS has gotten better, well more entertaining to watch at least. In EU they also allow imports, the team that utilised those imports most effectively, Fnatic, got to semi finals of the world championship, Origen didn't have any Koreans but they sure practiced against them and teams with Koreans on in scrims and they got to the semi finals as well. imports are limited to 2 per team of 5 for those unfamiliar with LoL.
It's residency as requirement, they can come.
It is not just residency, we had residency. You need either a student, working or sports visa. Taking for example germany:
The koreans often left school with 15 to become a progamer and cannot just go to a university. They also dont want to study here, but want to be a full time pro in Germany, thus student visa does not work. E-Sport-Pros do not get sports visa in Germany. Working visa: Extremly complicated. As progamers are no sports athlets in germany, someone has to actually pay them like normal workers. But then the gouvernment checks if there arent any german unemployed people who could also do the job. And then you have to pay per month a large amount of payment to the progamer or it could also be illegal.
There is a reason why all residency koreans live in America while nobody lives europe. ForGG was only there due to the ForGG rule in the WCS handbook.
Residency like Patience, Golden, HyuN, MC, First, Yoda, Sacsri, Jjakji and Stardust have been made impossible. So stop saying residency is the only requirement and they could just move their home here.
so basically people need to have proper visa like other people who work in other countries need...
Except its eSports and it is on a different scale yeah?
I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something.
On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote: I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something.
Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since:
1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need.
Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped.
What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it.
To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth.
On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote: I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something.
Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since:
1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need.
Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped.
What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it.
To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth.
On December 22 2015 19:50 Liquid`Snute wrote: As someone who usually would lose to the champion or someone KeSPA 2-3 in bracket stages of whatever DH/IEM Ro8 it's nice to see that a Ro8 finish here nets $500 more. but ... oh ... right ... lolol .... >_<
Massive money and support... I just hope there are opportunities for the best performing players somewhere down the line, more than once per year, to play vs Korean competition. EU-KR love all the way ~
You know, you are our hero. You brought us the amazing matches against the two protosses on IEM last year. These were the matches, we were looking forward to the whole year. Not to GSL, SSL ... not to WCS. And now, it is gone. There will be no opportunities to repeat it. At least, I hope, you will show good games in the RO16 group at BlizzCon.
Wow it's your first post that I see when you don't shit on a foreigner lol
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
IMO, there's a group of foreigners like Snute and Bunny who I respect a lot because they've put in a lot of time to play well and I don't think they'd back down from a challenge from anyone in Korea. If they'd win, that's another story.
On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote: I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something.
Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since:
1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need.
Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped.
What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it.
To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth.
Instead of seeing as KR vs the world, I see it as
I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings.
I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on.
If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players.
This honest to God feels like the American college's affirmative action and that's just not fucking fair.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote: [quote]
Snute is kinda special.
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
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On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote: I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something.
Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since:
1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need.
Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped.
What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it.
To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth.
Instead of seeing as KR vs the world, I see it as
I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings.
I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on.
If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players.
This honest to God feels like the American college's affirmative action and that's just not fucking fair.
Well, it is Blizzard's game, and they are entitled to do whatever they like with it. Similarly, American private colleges have every right to decide who they want to admit, and by what criteria they are admitted. Of course, American law disagrees with me, but if the principle of private property was enforced consistently, it would.
Qualifiers DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
Qualifiers DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
Qualifiers DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
On December 23 2015 01:33 Chaggi wrote: I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings.
Korea is not banned from playing SC2. They still have their own environment, even though still hurt - we still don't know though if it was Blizzard's of KeSPA's decision about taking out GSL/SSL season - but they still exist. Maybe Proleague changed? The level that you most care about is not going to waste. You can watch just Koreans and ignore everything except them and top 8 of Blizzcon (which arguably will be like the last WCS 2015 Grand Finals - all Korean). What are "different environments" though? Different foreign players that are below Koreans? Or more opportunities for fans to have autographs?
I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on.
The fact is, that there is no regional support over other countries to produce many consistently good players, so your argument "I don't care if the best person is Korean or Brazilian" is probably just to show how not "racist" your arguments are.
You can take that money as a "compensation" and injection for the possible infrastructure (salaries etc.) foreigners possibly will never have - unless you show me a comparison of Korean and non-Korean progamer salaries as an argument about who deserves it and who does not. "Don't produce similar results"? I'm pretty sure about the fact that the top spots will go in huge majority to players who deserve it and put most time and effort to the game. That's the hope, isn't it? You have to win this money, it is not given out for free, as some like to refer to this system as "welfare". No, it's going to be a new spark for competition. By the way, do you remember how many viewers $100,000 ESL tournament brought? I don't think it would bring that many if it was a $10,000 invitational made by BaseTradeTV or someone else (I don't mean any offense to anyone). Someone probably has drawn some conclusions over prize pools.
If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players.
And one more time, main problem of this system is that it's introduced too late, after Korean expansion at the cost of foreign scenes. I see it as a last-minute compensation for that and a hopeful future for foreign communities. Which are also into StarCraft 2.
I would also like to have god-like abilities to see which country has the most people honestly willing to be the best in SC2 and set slots over regions that way. Maybe it's not Korea who has the most players hurt, maybe it's Russia? Or Romania?
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote: [quote]
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote: not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
you are completely out of touch with the ladders. what rank are you on each of the ladders that makes you come to these conclusions? i can't even imagine how someone's experience could lead to these conclusions. you are GM on EU, win 90%+ of your games against top GM NA, and you can't make GM on asia? completely unrealistic
Qualifiers DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
Also, I heard that Kelazhur is somewhere around top 120 on KR server, can't remember where I heard about it, correct me if I'm wrong.
Qualifiers DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
Doesnt he live in the Root house in NA?
For his sake I hope he does. All LATAM spots belong to Major. Always have, always will until he retires.
EDIT: Also while I love that China/TW are split up from each other and Korea but the fact that they have 1 spot each could end up really hurting both scenes. China will have Jim/Xigua/Toodming/Courage/Macsed/iA and any other player looking to make a name for themselves fighting for just ONE spot. TW will be the Sen show like LATAM until he throws in the towel too
I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport. If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup?? Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet.
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote: I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport. If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup?? Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Have you just compared national leagues and World Championship Series, lmao.
On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote: I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something.
Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since:
1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need.
Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped.
What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it.
To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth.
Instead of seeing as KR vs the world, I see it as
I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings.
I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on.
If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players.
This honest to God feels like the American college's affirmative action and that's just not fucking fair.
You might be right but the problem is not enough people share your approach – just look at the viewer numbers. I'm pretty sure most big organizations would have dropped SC2 this year because they can't make money with it, so Blizzard try's to grow the viewer numbers back by creating local hero's. As someone else pointed out, last year there was no SC2 in Leipzig at all.
This may work or not but it's clear things didn't work out before. Maybe it's easier for casual viewers to connect to local players they can see all the time at streams etc. without going up in the middle of the night so SC2 is getting more popular over all. If not I'm pretty sure there won't be any big tournaments at all outside of Korea because I don't think Blizzard can justify to pay even more money to organizers for less viewers. In my opinion the hole changes aren't about fairness, they are about sustainability and I'm happy to see SC2 at DH Leipzig even if I can't see the best Players in the world.
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote: I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport. If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup?? Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Keep on comparing the individual sport that Starcraft II is with team-league sports like football (soccer). Stay classic.
Maybe start looking at individual sports like tennis or golf, when you want to compare esport with other sports.
Or start comparing right by saying "SKT T1 shouldnt be allowed to play in Europeen Team ProLeague". What would be totally right...
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet.
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote: I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport. If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup?? Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Have you just compared national leagues and World Championship Series, lmao.
Just asking: from your signature, you watch both SC2 and LoL, right? Which do you watch/like more?
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote: I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport. If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup?? Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Keep on comparing the individual sport that Starcraft II is with team-league sports like football (soccer). Stay classic.
Maybe start looking at individual sports like tennis or golf, when you want to compare esport with other sports.
Or start comparing right by saying "SKT T1 shouldnt be allowed to play in Europeen Team ProLeague". What would be totally right...
It has already been hashed and rehashed in the thread like 20 times. It is frustrating but something that is going to happen when posters are careless. Those types of posts aren't even worth quoting, chalk it up as a crappy post and move on.
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
Dude. Moonglade has been GM in Korea. I hate the system as much as anyone but to say Europeans couldn't be GM in Korea is farcical
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet.
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote: I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport. If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup?? Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Have you just compared national leagues and World Championship Series, lmao.
Just asking: from your signature, you watch both SC2 and LoL, right? Which do you watch/like more?
RTS as a genre was always more interesting to me, due to amount of storylines avaliable, plus it allows an ability to evaluate the single player properly and so on.
Of course I watch more League, because there is simply more League (around 70-100 competitive games per week during the season), but if I have to choose between, let's say, OGN LCK final and Proleague final, I'll choose Proleague 11 times of 10.
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet.
Sorry, I had in my mind WCS America = WCS Korea B when I was writing this. Not exactly last WCS. And I don't love to act as victim, I'm just less short-sighted and I don't see SC2 as a game of current professional players and current professional players only. Although it's probably too hopeful of me to see regional scenes rising with the new system as much as I hope they would. Maybe it was just one-shot thing that will never come back.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth?
If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end.
My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth?
If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end.
My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
As we all know how much recent year or two promoted regional growth and interest in the game. I love Korea and their super-competitive play and I watch it as much as I can, but I'd like to see both environments flourishing. To me pros of new WCS system outweigh cons. It may not solve the problem of foreigner-Korean skill gap, but neither last systems. At least not directly.
And no, I'm not one of those who hate Koreans and back this system because of how it can be perceived as rigged against Koreans, so take back your racism card. I agree with the idea of more regional events. Not occasional community-ran online invitationals for foreigners with $200 prize pool. But I see again and again that I'm trying to discuss different thing
If I think about it this "region"-definition would be fair if (approximately):
1. Korean Tournaments offer much more price money than in the other "region". 2. The price money in Korean Tournaments is spread much wider into lower ranks than in the other region. 3. Blizzcon finals is a 64 Player Tournament with Top 62 Koreans plus Top 2 foreigners. As it is planned we will have 8 players from the worlds Top 8 plus 8 players from the worlds "Top-random-rank-above-50" in the world finals. OMG I could even imagine bilzzard puts koreans all in one half of the final bracket to guarantee a foreigner in the final.
In my opinion foreign SC2-Pros receive too much money for how they perform. They have no motivation to train as hard and become as good as real pros (in admittetely professional environment) do
Qualifiers/spots: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1)
ima stay positive, i just want things to go well for the scene and the community. Lets stay positive, happy holidays btw. Best of luck to you starcraft, 2016 better be a great year
It may not solve the problem of foreigner-Korean skill gap, but neither last systems
Why is it a problem? Why should foreigners be same in the achievements level to Koreans? Especially, when some tries to artificially set it up.
All those foreigner vs Korea storylines throughout the years are based on the underdog storyline, be that LoL or Starcraft. Jinro, HuK, Stephano and NaNiwa endeavours were exciting to watch mainly because they weren't considered Goliaths at any point. They were around the same level skillwise with the top players, so it's not like it's unreal to compete.
It is same in LoL since 2012, that's why Gambit's heroics at IEM Katowice 2013 were considered a miracle, especially in the world, where Korea without 80+ players including like 20+ top caliber ones leaving the region, can murder World Championship in 2015 by dropping 3 games from 27, getting KRvsKR final for the first time and third team has only lost to other Korean team in the bracket stage.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth?
If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end.
My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
The problem is it makes it harder and almost impossible for new talent to grow in Korea with this new system. Foreigners will have at least 11 tournaments for them and Korea will have 5. It makes it so much more difficult for us to find the next Life, Flash or herO because they have so little chance to win anything at all.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth?
If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end.
My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
As we all know how much recent year or two promoted regional growth and interest in the game. I love Korea and their super-competitive play and I watch it as much as I can, but I'd like to see both environments flourishing. To me pros of new WCS system outweigh cons. It may not solve the problem of foreigner-Korean skill gap, but neither last systems. At least not directly.
And no, I'm not one of those who hate Koreans and back this system because of how it can be perceived as rigged against Koreans, so take back your racism card. I agree with the idea of more regional events. Not occasional community-ran online invitationals for foreigners with $200 prize pool. But I see again and again that I'm trying to discuss different thing
I am sorry, but I fail to see how you answered my question of how this new system promotes regional growth.
I don't know what it means to pull the racist card either, but I wasn't calling you racist personally.
Edit: Agreed with you AWalker9. What you mention is the part that hurts me most of this new system. I see a lot of things that I believe are wrong (aka won't work as intended) and other things I personally dislike (aka are not wrong but I don't like them), but I'm not in the mood of talking about all them.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote: [quote] But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
Let me help you . He posted 4 times in a row
Why thanks Deathstar but none of them seem warning worthy. He just exaggerates a bit to prove a point maybe
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote: [quote]
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle.
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
Edit: Huh, you mean not just in this discussion but in the actual thread. It's silly to do that but I didn't know you get a warning for it.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote: [quote] But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
Edit: Huh, you mean not just in this discussion but in the actual thread. It's silly to do that but I didn't know you get a warning for it.
Well, this year is probably going to be interesting for many reasons. I really wonder if it was the tournaments organizers that pushed Blizzard into this kind of anti Korea locking ( lets be real, that's what it is )
On December 23 2015 04:37 Silvana wrote:I am sorry, but I fail to see how you answered my question of how this new system promotes regional growth.
I believe that you can't grow skill and interest within region "inviting" Koreans to tournaments practicing on their own, practice-wise better server. There has to be an incentive that local players can reach. I just don't see how tournament games with top Korean players can be seen as potential practice for players from a region, that is holding that tournament. Someone help me understand that.
I don't know what it means to pull the racist card either, but I wasn't calling you racist personally.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway...
On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:
On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote: [quote] Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined.
It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything.
These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague.
So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that.
Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them.
User was warned for this post
I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
Edit: Huh, you mean not just in this discussion but in the actual thread. It's silly to do that but I didn't know you get a warning for it.
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway...
And why do you think they have a "locked" amount of teams that get to come from EU?
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway...
And why do you think they have a "locked" amount of teams that get to come from EU?
Here we go again with team sports references...How many times can we repeat this discussion in a day?
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote: Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway...
And why do you think they have a "locked" amount of teams that get to come from EU?
Because FIFA is racist /s
I agree fully with all statements regarding potentially, or almost surely hurting (arguably overexpanded) Korean scene, one of the worst things about new WCS is the fact that it limited their options - options that they got on expense of suffocating and almost completely suffocated foreigner scene hanging on "hopes" and no real possibility of infrastructure. It's obvious that SC2 needs healthy Korean scene, it's limited with this system, but not killed yet. To get football as a reference again: imagine a situation, where there are best teams practicing in the best environments with best coaches, can choose what region they play in, no region-lock over any continent, best teams spreading to all countries and different continents and all of a sudden all players are hurt by new rule stating that you need to be a citizen of the country that you play for. It possibly would be the best possible football you could have, but it's not, since the biggest national competition is considered national, not "best". Some European A teams could compete with B teams from Spain or Italy. It should be "World Championship Series", not "Best Championship Series" or something that we got throughout these few years. I would argue that it's not even a bad thing, people have already seen the best StarCraft play and won't turn again to the lower skill games. I understand it. To me WCS should bear some values of what WCG once was. I will still support SC2, despite being "welfare" for some time. It was like almost exactly like that back in the day.
I'm browsing right now through old and older tournaments SC2 and Brood War had, and I don't remember any outrage about so many tournaments not having Koreans. I wish WCS never became a thing the entire SC2 player community should be about. Local competitions should be given more importance. But they were not, thanks to too quick openness to Korean playerbase. It's not a bad thing that it happened. It could be other way though.
I understand how delicate this player ecosystem can be but it was already continuously hurt by Korean scene since the day they were invited to IEM World Championship in 2011. Progaming scenes so different should not have clashed and be merged this early. They were not equal. Ever. These and following invites should never have happened. I see this system as a last opportunity to try to revive non-Korean scene.
This system should be like this or similar in the first place.
Personally, if I were to win some money from this "welfare" system or gain it in the scene some other way I would donate it to Korean "B-teamer charity".
On December 23 2015 07:32 MaCRo.gg wrote: Here we go again with team sports references...How many times can we repeat this discussion in a day?
Sorry for team sport reference, it's my last one, I promise, I haven't seen your post when I was writing mine
The biggest unfairness is that the "Korean" scene is open to everybody without residency requirement (even though no foreigner except State has enough balls to actually try it anymore, since all those who tried in the past pretty much failed (with some rare exceptions)) but the "everybody's but Korea's" scene is not open to everybody.
This is pretty much success bashing. It's like "Damn, Korea has a good scene (even though it's slowly going down) and their players are doing well has a result, let's NOT reward them for it or learn from it for the other countries, nha instead we'll tell them to go play with themselves and leave us alone so we can feel like we are good, even though we are not".
Shame. But hey, it's still early, mabe every other IEM/DH will be the Global kind (but I doubt it since Blizzard made it not worth-it to host those).
On December 23 2015 05:32 Noocta wrote: Well, this year is probably going to be interesting for many reasons. I really wonder if it was the tournaments organizers that pushed Blizzard into this kind of anti Korea locking ( lets be real, that's what it is )
I highly doubt it. Some people have been asking for it with WCS and they've slowly moved towards it. If this was just in the WCS system and we'd still be guaranteed to have many IEMs and DHs without region locking I don't think the outcry would be anything like this.
On December 23 2015 09:03 Growiel wrote: The biggest unfairness is that the "Korean" scene is open to everybody without residency requirement (even though no foreigner except State has enough balls to actually try it anymore, since all those who tried in the past pretty much failed (with some rare exceptions)) but the "everybody's but Korea's" scene is not open to everybody.
This is pretty much success bashing. It's like "Damn, Korea has a good scene (even though it's slowly going down) and their players are doing well has a result, let's NOT reward them for it or learn from it for the other countries, nha instead we'll tell them to go play with themselves and leave us alone so we can feel like we are good, even though we are not".
Shame. But hey, it's still early, mabe every other IEM/DH will be the Global kind (but I doubt it since Blizzard made it not worth-it to host those).
I agree with every argument about supporting Korean scene. They should receive more from Blizzard's side, maybe people overestimate KeSPA's ability in management and giving opportunities to lesser players.
Residency requirement is not in Korea's region, because almost no foreigner will try it since possible non-Korean infrastructure, motivation and support was rolled over by Korean dominance. Literally, to go there you are making a decision with your own money and no guarantee of any support there. I would argue if it's about "balls". I admire what State does and support him fully. But look, to be considered a decent foreigner, you have to beat few KeSPA Koreans in a tournament often having no means to have practice on their level. If there was a good opportunity back in the day to practice with Koreans regularly, it would be used. It was, by some. Others weren't considered "worth it" to practice with Koreans. What if KeSPA was offering opportunities like that? It's questionable for me if ladder itself is the only way to get better. Koreans have coaches, strict routine, team support and stuff. Some players that mostly play on AM servers don't play on KR for some reason.
I imagine what foreign Brood War scene would look like if there were open gates everywhere and Koreans weren't held tight by KeSPA and let go over other countries? Why didn't that happen? So many talent from Korea was lost because of the competition they had on their own, it could flourish somewhere else.
Nobody states that foreigners are better or even equal to Koreans. This system is just an equalized form of opportunities for both regions, with questionable support left for the better one, where progaming is fully acceptable in society. Korea will be forever the source of best players. But it shouldn't be a source of most players.
On December 23 2015 09:26 Dodgin wrote: Still can't believe our scene has come to this, everyone in the world except Korean players are now allowed to go to Dreamhack events.
Until the last minute of TB's monologue I thought I was alone on that.. What will happen when the current top koreans retire, after the inevitable devastation of the up-and-coming korean pro scene? We keep joking about the "daed gaem", but Blizz might have just provided the death blow with the 2016 WCS rules..
As long as Blizzard keeps the money flowing, the scene will keep trucking on. It might even become more competitive on the world stage when the Korean scene is starved of new talent (lower skill gap). The skill level at the very top will probably go down, but that probably won't matter at that point.
If you're a top player in Korea it sucks, you get less opportunities but you're so good you'll probably be fine. It's unlikely you'll make Blizzcon but you'll survive. If you're an up and comer however, you have no chance to shine because there's nothing you can play apart from the Olimoleague because in GSL and SSL qualifiers you'll probably be out in the first round and at that point you'll probably question the point of dong it.
The B-tier Koreans arguably get screwed the most by the new system. Take Heart who recently retired in 2014 he made the Ro4 and the finals of WCS AM. In 2015 he struggled to make Code S and SSL Challenger because the level of competition was so high. At least he got support from his team to go to foreign events to try and earn some money. That can't happen in 2015. So B-tier Koreans can't go abroad to supplement their income and will get knocked out early and then have nothing to play. This just encourages lots of retirements and that is the saddest thing of all.
On December 23 2015 16:44 calh wrote: As long as Blizzard keeps the money flowing, the scene will keep trucking on. It might even become more competitive on the world stage when the Korean scene is starved of new talent (lower skill gap). The skill level at the very top will probably go down, but that probably won't matter at that point.
Instead of improving the foreigners we fuck over the Koreans and lower their skill... What a nice way to balance the skill gap....
We've basically switched from fucking over foreign players to fucking over korean players, if you can't support that then I suggest you stop supporting the events that do this. It definitely sucks for those players and for the fans of the KR scene.
The shitty thing is that foreign players weren't being fucked over because of tournament policies, it was because they were worse players. Now we have affirmative action to reverse the roles.
In the long run hopefully something good can come from this.
So, if I want to compete in DH i must pay trip to my own, pay dh ticket 50 euros and enter woth 88 others? Is blizzard insane? I wonder if they will fill half of 96 spots...
On December 23 2015 22:03 ZeRoX_TV wrote: So, if I want to compete in DH i must pay trip to my own, pay dh ticket 50 euros and enter woth 88 others? Is blizzard insane? I wonder if they will fill half of 96 spots...
How different this is than last DreamHacks? You didn't have to pay for the trip on your own? Unless you were able to grab achievements early in SC2 and receive team support? Not mentioning the ticket, I can't find any information on tickets, probably there were none. There is a significant difference still, no Koreans from their own super-competitive environment taking the top spots arguably "for free" making room for foreign scene.
On December 23 2015 22:03 ZeRoX_TV wrote: So, if I want to compete in DH i must pay trip to my own, pay dh ticket 50 euros and enter woth 88 others? Is blizzard insane? I wonder if they will fill half of 96 spots...
Nothing new. Other tournaments do the same, maybe the 96 spots is the exception.
On December 23 2015 22:03 ZeRoX_TV wrote: So, if I want to compete in DH i must pay trip to my own, pay dh ticket 50 euros and enter woth 88 others? Is blizzard insane? I wonder if they will fill half of 96 spots...
How different this is than last DreamHacks? You didn't have to pay for the trip on your own? Unless you were able to grab achievements early in SC2 and receive team support? Not mentioning the ticket, I can't find any information on tickets, probably there were none. There is a significant difference still, no Koreans from their own super-competitive environment taking the top spots arguably "for free" making room for foreign scene.
I think he's comparing it to last year's WCS, where the first phases were online and the trip for the offline phase was paid by Blizzard.
I am actually refering to Blizzards support for local heroes. How is this suposed to help average GM player to prove himself if hes broke and cannot afford trips to collect points? In last years system players withoutnfinancial support could make it to challenger and try to compete for Premier league spot, take Bulgarian zerg Stakiman for instance. Thats why I think this system is even worse for foreigners except pros who are sponsored anyways.
I thought Blizzard will support smaller regional qualifiers ( like for example Iberian for Spanish and Portugese players, Balkan qualifiers, Polish, etc) where some maybe less known players can take spot and try to compete. Pros are covered by teams anyways.
On December 23 2015 22:03 ZeRoX_TV wrote: So, if I want to compete in DH i must pay trip to my own, pay dh ticket 50 euros and enter woth 88 others? Is blizzard insane? I wonder if they will fill half of 96 spots...
How different this is than last DreamHacks? You didn't have to pay for the trip on your own? Unless you were able to grab achievements early in SC2 and receive team support? Not mentioning the ticket, I can't find any information on tickets, probably there were none. There is a significant difference still, no Koreans from their own super-competitive environment taking the top spots arguably "for free" making room for foreign scene.
I think he's comparing it to last year's WCS, where the first phases were online and the trip for the offline phase was paid by Blizzard.
Ah, right. I felt that it was a direct comparison between new and old DreamHack events, which were not directly WCS-related. And WCS now is comprised of WCS Championships and arguably smaller Circuit events with wider competition at expense of "traditional" DH's and IEM's we got used to.
I guess I need to think more in terms of how Blizzard thinks about the future of Starcraft. They think it is going to grow from LotV and believe that there is a strong chance to increase viewership/purchases from a more global based scene. Their means and the execution of this idea is a different point, however racist and bigoted I think it is.
Being stand-alone expansion introduces a stronger path to increasing viewership/sales and the price matches their desire to make the game more accessible. The numbers for HotS hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up like TB said. Sacrificing the lower end Korean pros and the limited (~50-70) Koreans viewers that watch foreign tournaments on Afreeca plus some that watch gisado on Twitch isn't a huge blow to Blizzard. This has definitely hasn't been well received in Korea, but there really isn't enough people that care to even stir the rest of the Korean netizens.
I think Blizzard doesn't have any more hopes of regaining their BW level popularity in Korea anymore. While it is a depressing set up, it is a reasonable business decision by them because I do believe that Korean interest in Starcraft will not increase from LotV or from any reasonable measure.
However, I don't believe popularity of LotV will be higher than HotS or WoL and I hoped that Blizzard would've supported stabilization of a stagnant/slow growing scene instead of their expansionist ideas. Because let's get real, LotV is that great of a product to magically overtake LoL, CSGO, or Dota2.
I guess I need to think more in terms of how Blizzard thinks about the future of Starcraft. They think it is going to grow from LotV and believe that there is a strong chance to increase viewership/purchases from a more global based scene. Their means and the execution of this idea is a different point, however racist and bigoted I think it is.
Being stand-alone expansion introduces a stronger path to increasing viewership/sales and the price matches their desire to make the game more accessible. The numbers for HotS hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up like TB said. Sacrificing the lower end Korean pros and the limited (~50-70) Koreans viewers that watch foreign tournaments on Afreeca plus some that watch gisado on Twitch isn't a huge blow to Blizzard. This has definitely hasn't been well received in Korea, but there really isn't enough people that care to even stir the rest of the Korean netizens.
I think Blizzard doesn't have any more hopes of regaining their BW level popularity in Korea anymore. While it is a depressing set up, it is a reasonable business decision by them because I do believe that Korean interest in Starcraft will not increase from LotV or from any reasonable measure.
However, I don't believe popularity of LotV will be higher than HotS or WoL and I hoped that Blizzard would've supported stabilization of a stagnant/slow growing scene instead of their expansionist ideas. Because let's get real, LotV is that great of a product to magically overtake LoL, CSGO, or Dota2.
I wonder how much of the fact that SC2 is individual based carried over to the numbers of followers it had then and has now. It's logical to me that team games tend to be more popular due to the fact of player interaction within the team. It would be interesting what factors contribute the most to the popularity of all the games you mentioned overall.
Korean scene is team based (and that's one of it's great strengths, both as a huge upper-hand in maintaining higher level over scattered across whole world non-Korean players - mostly relying on themselves when practicing - and a thing for audience, people not always cheer for specific players only), which foreign scene tried to mimic for relatively short amount of time but failed. Also I believe that SC2 could be comparatively successful to the team games you mentioned only if the support for the game was for the game itself, not monetary opportunities it brought. In my opinion too many people/organizations rode on SC2's popularity for money and let foreigner scene to hang on to what they could do as community to maintain viewership and skill level. That's how I feel sometimes. Korea has true team support, their competition is supported by government, and rarely there is a need for them to do things outside of the game to sustain themselves. In my opinion this "need to sustain themselves" hurt the foreign scene, but arguably this "content" is good and essential for some, as it creates stories which make Twitch viewer count rise. I'll omit the argument of different average age of audiences of all of the four games, I don't think it's that important.
Personally I would like to see less "content" and more of "not funny" Korea-like infrastructure. That was exciting for some amount of time, while NaNiwa and SaSe were practicing with StarTale for example. They were given opportunities to achieve something, and they did. But apparently it couldn't work for foreigners on their own turf. Foreigners had to be funny and enjoyable as people, maybe even exploited as advertisement space. It's obvious that you need money for an endeavour like that, I don't blame anyone. Many good opportunities for foreigners were lost due to scams and questionable stuff, Ministry of Win being an example. It had to be a business for owners, they had to make good money out of it. It would be so great for Europeans to have common place to practice with coaches and stuff, not a Skype group and them fending for themselves. That's what I loosely think
I guess I need to think more in terms of how Blizzard thinks about the future of Starcraft. They think it is going to grow from LotV and believe that there is a strong chance to increase viewership/purchases from a more global based scene. Their means and the execution of this idea is a different point, however racist and bigoted I think it is.
Being stand-alone expansion introduces a stronger path to increasing viewership/sales and the price matches their desire to make the game more accessible. The numbers for HotS hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up like TB said. Sacrificing the lower end Korean pros and the limited (~50-70) Koreans viewers that watch foreign tournaments on Afreeca plus some that watch gisado on Twitch isn't a huge blow to Blizzard. This has definitely hasn't been well received in Korea, but there really isn't enough people that care to even stir the rest of the Korean netizens.
I think Blizzard doesn't have any more hopes of regaining their BW level popularity in Korea anymore. While it is a depressing set up, it is a reasonable business decision by them because I do believe that Korean interest in Starcraft will not increase from LotV or from any reasonable measure.
However, I don't believe popularity of LotV will be higher than HotS or WoL and I hoped that Blizzard would've supported stabilization of a stagnant/slow growing scene instead of their expansionist ideas. Because let's get real, LotV is that great of a product to magically overtake LoL, CSGO, or Dota2.
I wonder how much of the fact that SC2 is individual based carried over to the numbers of followers it had then and has now. It's logical to me that team games tend to be more popular due to the fact of player interaction within the team. It would be interesting what factors contribute the most to the popularity of all the games you mentioned overall.
Korean scene is team based (and that's one of it's great strengths, both as a huge upper-hand in maintaining higher level over scattered across whole world non-Korean players - mostly relying on themselves when practicing - and a thing for audience, people not always cheer for specific players only), which foreign scene tried to mimic for relatively short amount of time but failed. Also I believe that SC2 could be comparatively successful to the team games you mentioned only if the support for the game was for the game itself, not monetary opportunities it brought. In my opinion too many people/organizations rode on SC2's popularity for money and let foreigner scene to hang on to what they could do as community to maintain viewership and skill level. That's how I feel sometimes. Korea has true team support, their competition is supported by government, and rarely there is a need for them to do things outside of the game to sustain themselves. In my opinion this "need to sustain themselves" hurt the foreign scene, but arguably this "content" is good and essential for some, as it creates stories which make Twitch viewer count rise. I'll omit the argument of different average age of audiences of all of the four games, I don't think it's that important.
Personally I would like to see less "content" and more of "not funny" Korea-like infrastructure. That was exciting for some amount of time, while NaNiwa and SaSe were practicing with StarTale for example. They were given opportunities to achieve something, and they did. But apparently it couldn't work for foreigners on their own turf. Foreigners had to be funny and enjoyable as people, maybe even exploited as advertisement space. It's obvious that you need money for an endeavour like that, I don't blame anyone. Many good opportunities for foreigners were lost due to scams and questionable stuff, Ministry of Win being an example. It had to be a business for owners, they had to make good money out of it. It would be so great for Europeans to have common place to practice with coaches and stuff, not a Skype group and them fending for themselves. That's what I loosely think
I agree with your preference too, and although I really think Blizzard's strategy is problematic in important ways that a lot of people have pointed out here (especially regarding "second-tier" Korean pros) it's also understandable. What all sports organizations are actually selling to their viewers is the potential to be captivated and inspired, and showing "the highest level of play" is only one way of selling that, and maybe not even the best way. And SC2 is a complex game where the most obvious win condition that is most easily understood by new viewers - "destroy all of your opponent's buildings" - is incredibly rarely the actual way the game ends, so it can be hard for a new/casual viewer to understand why positional battles are important, why tech tree choices are important, why someone's micro is brilliant, or even why a game ends.
So Blizzard has to sell its sport based on other factors that are more easily accessible, and some of these things have to do with "content" or personality, entertainment value, etc., in addition to high-level play. This isn't necessarily racist or bigoted; it might really just be a personal preference to connect with someone/something more obvious, like some viewers in other sports might support awful local teams/players/schools over good ones even though there's no illusion that these are the top level of competition.
Anyway, it might also be worth pointing out that people like us who go out of our way to SC2 discussion sites and make lots of posts might not be the demographic that Blizzard needs to target in the short-term for the game's long-term growth
I guess I need to think more in terms of how Blizzard thinks about the future of Starcraft. They think it is going to grow from LotV and believe that there is a strong chance to increase viewership/purchases from a more global based scene. Their means and the execution of this idea is a different point, however racist and bigoted I think it is.
Being stand-alone expansion introduces a stronger path to increasing viewership/sales and the price matches their desire to make the game more accessible. The numbers for HotS hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up like TB said. Sacrificing the lower end Korean pros and the limited (~50-70) Koreans viewers that watch foreign tournaments on Afreeca plus some that watch gisado on Twitch isn't a huge blow to Blizzard. This has definitely hasn't been well received in Korea, but there really isn't enough people that care to even stir the rest of the Korean netizens.
I think Blizzard doesn't have any more hopes of regaining their BW level popularity in Korea anymore. While it is a depressing set up, it is a reasonable business decision by them because I do believe that Korean interest in Starcraft will not increase from LotV or from any reasonable measure.
However, I don't believe popularity of LotV will be higher than HotS or WoL and I hoped that Blizzard would've supported stabilization of a stagnant/slow growing scene instead of their expansionist ideas. Because let's get real, LotV is that great of a product to magically overtake LoL, CSGO, or Dota2.
I wonder how much of the fact that SC2 is individual based carried over to the numbers of followers it had then and has now. It's logical to me that team games tend to be more popular due to the fact of player interaction within the team. It would be interesting what factors contribute the most to the popularity of all the games you mentioned overall.
Korean scene is team based (and that's one of it's great strengths, both as a huge upper-hand in maintaining higher level over scattered across whole world non-Korean players - mostly relying on themselves when practicing - and a thing for audience, people not always cheer for specific players only), which foreign scene tried to mimic for relatively short amount of time but failed. Also I believe that SC2 could be comparatively successful to the team games you mentioned only if the support for the game was for the game itself, not monetary opportunities it brought. In my opinion too many people/organizations rode on SC2's popularity for money and let foreigner scene to hang on to what they could do as community to maintain viewership and skill level. That's how I feel sometimes. Korea has true team support, their competition is supported by government, and rarely there is a need for them to do things outside of the game to sustain themselves. In my opinion this "need to sustain themselves" hurt the foreign scene, but arguably this "content" is good and essential for some, as it creates stories which make Twitch viewer count rise. I'll omit the argument of different average age of audiences of all of the four games, I don't think it's that important.
Personally I would like to see less "content" and more of "not funny" Korea-like infrastructure. That was exciting for some amount of time, while NaNiwa and SaSe were practicing with StarTale for example. They were given opportunities to achieve something, and they did. But apparently it couldn't work for foreigners on their own turf. Foreigners had to be funny and enjoyable as people, maybe even exploited as advertisement space. It's obvious that you need money for an endeavour like that, I don't blame anyone. Many good opportunities for foreigners were lost due to scams and questionable stuff, Ministry of Win being an example. It had to be a business for owners, they had to make good money out of it. It would be so great for Europeans to have common place to practice with coaches and stuff, not a Skype group and them fending for themselves. That's what I loosely think
I agree with your preference too, and although I really think Blizzard's strategy is problematic in important ways that a lot of people have pointed out here (especially regarding "second-tier" Korean pros) it's also understandable. What all sports organizations are actually selling to their viewers is the potential to be captivated and inspired, and showing "the highest level of play" is only one way of selling that, and maybe not even the best way. And SC2 is a complex game where the most obvious win condition that is most easily understood by new viewers - "destroy all of your opponent's buildings" - is incredibly rarely the actual way the game ends, so it can be hard for a new/casual viewer to understand why positional battles are important, why tech tree choices are important, why someone's micro is brilliant, or even why a game ends.
So Blizzard has to sell its sport based on other factors that are more easily accessible, and some of these things have to do with "content" or personality, entertainment value, etc., in addition to high-level play. This isn't necessarily racist or bigoted; it might really just be a personal preference to connect with someone/something more obvious, like some viewers in other sports might support awful local teams/players/schools over good ones even though there's no illusion that these are the top level of competition.
Anyway, it might also be worth pointing out that people like us who go out of our way to SC2 discussion sites and make lots of posts might not be the demographic that Blizzard needs to target in the short-term for the game's long-term growth
That is the main issue here. Looking for "growth" in a game that has been released half a decade ago. Sure expansions turn the tides a bit, but is LotV really that revolutionary? It would be more logical to project off the boost that HotS gave, which was meager amount that did not match up to the popularity during the beginning days of WoL.
Games that have constant growth in viewership after release are games that have their revenue dependent on their commercial success, micro transactions like the big top 3: CSGO, LoL, Dota2. Hearthstone. Blizzard doesn't get the current players to spend more money on the game after purchase in Sc2 like it does Hearthstone, WoW, and Heroes otS. Valve for Dota, Riot for LoL, Hearthstone for Blizzard all do well because the game companies are financially invested into actually making the game better. They get new heroes, new skins, new maps, new clients which then equates to new players that spend money on those new skins, new heroes, new voices, new UI, ect. This is how competitive scenes grow, because the game keeps fresh and gets better not because more money is thrown at the scene.
After LotV what can sc2 expect from Blizzard? Couple balance updates, maybe some UI changes, even a couple units taken out or added on. The game will eventually get stale and casual people will move on, there is nothing keeping players here like there is in Dota2, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes otS, ect.
Really there is only one answer to all these questions. Time. If somehow LotV beats the half decade long trend of eSports and somehow throwing money at the scene will make up for them not actually improving the game, I will be wrong but I highly doubt that.
I guess I need to think more in terms of how Blizzard thinks about the future of Starcraft. They think it is going to grow from LotV and believe that there is a strong chance to increase viewership/purchases from a more global based scene. Their means and the execution of this idea is a different point, however racist and bigoted I think it is.
Being stand-alone expansion introduces a stronger path to increasing viewership/sales and the price matches their desire to make the game more accessible. The numbers for HotS hasn't gone down but it hasn't gone up like TB said. Sacrificing the lower end Korean pros and the limited (~50-70) Koreans viewers that watch foreign tournaments on Afreeca plus some that watch gisado on Twitch isn't a huge blow to Blizzard. This has definitely hasn't been well received in Korea, but there really isn't enough people that care to even stir the rest of the Korean netizens.
I think Blizzard doesn't have any more hopes of regaining their BW level popularity in Korea anymore. While it is a depressing set up, it is a reasonable business decision by them because I do believe that Korean interest in Starcraft will not increase from LotV or from any reasonable measure.
However, I don't believe popularity of LotV will be higher than HotS or WoL and I hoped that Blizzard would've supported stabilization of a stagnant/slow growing scene instead of their expansionist ideas. Because let's get real, LotV is that great of a product to magically overtake LoL, CSGO, or Dota2.
I wonder how much of the fact that SC2 is individual based carried over to the numbers of followers it had then and has now. It's logical to me that team games tend to be more popular due to the fact of player interaction within the team. It would be interesting what factors contribute the most to the popularity of all the games you mentioned overall.
Korean scene is team based (and that's one of it's great strengths, both as a huge upper-hand in maintaining higher level over scattered across whole world non-Korean players - mostly relying on themselves when practicing - and a thing for audience, people not always cheer for specific players only), which foreign scene tried to mimic for relatively short amount of time but failed. Also I believe that SC2 could be comparatively successful to the team games you mentioned only if the support for the game was for the game itself, not monetary opportunities it brought. In my opinion too many people/organizations rode on SC2's popularity for money and let foreigner scene to hang on to what they could do as community to maintain viewership and skill level. That's how I feel sometimes. Korea has true team support, their competition is supported by government, and rarely there is a need for them to do things outside of the game to sustain themselves. In my opinion this "need to sustain themselves" hurt the foreign scene, but arguably this "content" is good and essential for some, as it creates stories which make Twitch viewer count rise. I'll omit the argument of different average age of audiences of all of the four games, I don't think it's that important.
Personally I would like to see less "content" and more of "not funny" Korea-like infrastructure. That was exciting for some amount of time, while NaNiwa and SaSe were practicing with StarTale for example. They were given opportunities to achieve something, and they did. But apparently it couldn't work for foreigners on their own turf. Foreigners had to be funny and enjoyable as people, maybe even exploited as advertisement space. It's obvious that you need money for an endeavour like that, I don't blame anyone. Many good opportunities for foreigners were lost due to scams and questionable stuff, Ministry of Win being an example. It had to be a business for owners, they had to make good money out of it. It would be so great for Europeans to have common place to practice with coaches and stuff, not a Skype group and them fending for themselves. That's what I loosely think
I agree with your preference too, and although I really think Blizzard's strategy is problematic in important ways that a lot of people have pointed out here (especially regarding "second-tier" Korean pros) it's also understandable. What all sports organizations are actually selling to their viewers is the potential to be captivated and inspired, and showing "the highest level of play" is only one way of selling that, and maybe not even the best way. And SC2 is a complex game where the most obvious win condition that is most easily understood by new viewers - "destroy all of your opponent's buildings" - is incredibly rarely the actual way the game ends, so it can be hard for a new/casual viewer to understand why positional battles are important, why tech tree choices are important, why someone's micro is brilliant, or even why a game ends.
So Blizzard has to sell its sport based on other factors that are more easily accessible, and some of these things have to do with "content" or personality, entertainment value, etc., in addition to high-level play. This isn't necessarily racist or bigoted; it might really just be a personal preference to connect with someone/something more obvious, like some viewers in other sports might support awful local teams/players/schools over good ones even though there's no illusion that these are the top level of competition.
Anyway, it might also be worth pointing out that people like us who go out of our way to SC2 discussion sites and make lots of posts might not be the demographic that Blizzard needs to target in the short-term for the game's long-term growth
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They actually have DLC planned for LOTV, Co-op commanders and maps, as well as campaign content(Nova DLC)
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.dreamhack.se/dhw15/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/10/dh-open2016_w700_h247.jpg)
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