Is Snutes 3 base roach ravager all in not effective at higher ranks any more? Photon overcharge is pretty easy to deal with using corrosive bile I've found in diamond league at least.

Caihead

Canada8550 Posts

December 13 2015 04:42 GMT

#42

On December 13 2015 13:13 TRaFFiC wrote:
I haven't watched every pro game recently and the meta is evolving quickly. That said...

1)I don't see early ravager pushes as a problem. Of course you can die to them, but you also die to any cheese if you don't prepare.

The issue is ravagers as part of the roach/ravager or roach/ravager/hydra composition. Forcing a ravager den doesn't solve this.

2)Like others said in here, if you scout a rw, you can almost assume a roach based composition. It's really rare these days to do the safety roach build without ravagers. Keep in mind any early rw seriously hurts zerg eco.

Bottom line: you can't blindly mass helions. You gotta look for the rw with reaper or just blindly counter roach based play.

Any time you suggest the solution to a problem is blind counter you encourage stale boring metas. Look at tvp in hots, every terran has to basically blind counter Oracle regardless of how well they scout the main of protoss. Making almost every safe tvp build play out the same for the terran for the first 5-8 minutes while the protoss has like 5 viable options (robo, stargate, gateway, blink/dt, fe, etc).

Same shit happening now in tvz, terran has to blind counter roach / ravager and park themselves on 2 mining bases while zerg can go any combination of fast third or speedling or roach or lair into muta / nydus / lurker. All so they can play a macro game, not that there's any significant advantage to playing a late game Terran vz or vp.

Tachion

Canada8573 Posts

December 13 2015 06:43 GMT

#43

Would having a ravager den cost/morph time change early game ZvP? If Zerg had to actually fear cannons again and couldn't get ravagers out till quite a bit later and couldn't 3 hatch before pool anymore? Or would Protoss still just die to a Nydus, ravager or not.

TRaFFiC

Canada1448 Posts

December 13 2015 07:20 GMT

#44

On December 13 2015 13:42 Caihead wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, the meta is always going to end up "boring" because usually there is 1 optimal, "best" way to play. Ex. ling bling muta vs T in HOTS. Though other styles are still possible (roach/hydra).

In HOTS, Terrans had to open to counter oracles, but it's not like you say. Just as many Terrans opened factory as reaper into 3 rax.

Don't know what you mean by "parked on 2 bases." If you open triple orbital and scout a rush, of course you should wait to fly it out. Even if they contain you on 2 bases while they take third, the eco blast once mules land on third and tech you achieve (upgades, medis) will eventually make it worth it.

A lot of the Zerg openings you list count on getting damage done (mutas, nydus). That's not standard macro. Heard many pros say Lurkers aren't out in time.

tokinho

United States792 Posts

December 14 2015 00:04 GMT

#45

On December 12 2015 08:56 Heyjoray wrote:
Oh, roaches....OH MY GOD RAVAGER WHERE DO THEY COME FROM!? Are you serious?

Literally, the whole post talks about preparing for ravagers and then dying to other things. The problem isn't where they come from its the asymmetric response and losing to builds that look similar but are not ravagers.... Its like people don't even look at a post, see a picture, then post a dumb comment without even reading the first sentence of the post.

On December 12 2015 22:38 jinjin5000 wrote:
Is make it cost something minor like 50/50 or somrthing. Just an indicator is fine

This literally gets rid of the entire point of the whole post. Committing to the tech over other techs/options.

waiting2Bbanned

United States154 Posts

December 14 2015 03:07 GMT

#46

Damn, using scans has apparently become impossible in LOTV it seems..
As a zerg you have to sloooooowly get an overlord in, with a fair chance you are gonna lose it, or run lings in, that you are almost certain you are gonna lose them, to scout the terran base, while as a terran all you have to do is use the scan, and now even that is considered too hard?? Maybe Blizzard should accomodate for the single digits APM of the LOTV terrans, then..

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

December 14 2015 05:03 GMT

#47

On December 14 2015 12:07 waiting2Bbanned wrote:
Damn, using scans has apparently become impossible in LOTV it seems..
As a zerg you have to sloooooowly get an overlord in, with a fair chance you are gonna lose it, or run lings in, that you are almost certain you are gonna lose them, to scout the terran base, while as a terran all you have to do is use the scan, and now even that is considered too hard?? Maybe Blizzard should accomodate for the single digits APM of the LOTV terrans, then..

I don't see your point here. We both know that scouting has been extremely asymmetrical for years and hasn't changed much. This thread is discussing whether it's too difficult to tell ravagers from non-ravagers, not whether terran can scout zerg.

FabledIntegral

United States9232 Posts

December 14 2015 05:41 GMT

#48

I think it would be better just to nerf the ravager itself.

-1 range (permanent) and slower speed, but it gets a speed buff in tandem with roach speed

ETisME

12702 Posts

December 14 2015 14:40 GMT

#49

I don't know why the post makes it sound it is difficult to prepare for those builds.
Nydus and burrow roach movement requires lair.
I guess the only build that really is similar to roach long all in but I don't see it being harder than defend when you are building up against an all in anyway

DinoMight

United States3725 Posts

December 14 2015 15:02 GMT

#50

Ravagers require a very specific response but there's no way to tell if they're coming until you actually see them on the field.

I think it's only common sense that Ravagers require a Roach Warren upgrade to 1) slow down the speed at which they're available and 2) clearly indicate to the opponent that it's possible for Ravagers to exist at that point in time.