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todespolka
221 Posts
Also it doesnt matter if its a 5 ravager or roach only rush because the answer is the same. Zerg can always decide to turn 1-3 roaches into ravager and destroy your wall. If you hold the attack, zerg is very behind because of early gas and larva investment in units. If you dont mismicro vs ravager you should win the game. | ||
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lohdon
170 Posts
On December 12 2015 14:02 GGzerG wrote: It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_- Every time there is a suggestion of a Zerg nerf I see you coming in and fighting tooth and nail against it. This time however you're dishing out the most unbelievable stupid comparisons ever. The darkshrine is very expensive tech that even requires another tech building and enables you to warp in dts anytime in the game so the game is not in your favor if your opponent prepares for dts and you decide to not build any. If building a roach warren always triggers the response of having to play super safe you fall behind every game without being able to do much about it. | ||
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Isarios
United States153 Posts
I wouldn't mind. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20284 Posts
Zerg gives similar threat in the midgame - even if they're playing entirely ground, it's very common for a zerg on 4+ gasses to drop a spire. The only indication for surprise | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 12 2015 13:34 Cyro wrote: It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building) The ravager den is also already in the game. It's called a roach warren! | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition Didnt know this. This is cool if its true. | ||
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PepperMintTea
187 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1412 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3346 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 13 2015 01:11 ejozl wrote: More depth in the tech tree is something I would really appreciate. Too much is accessible too early and scouting is almost meaningless. Also as a newer player how in the hell can you not get overwhelmed, with 3 new units pr. tech structure you add. It slows down the game, which might actually be the reason this has not happened yet, though if Blizzard wishes to slow down the game a bit, it really should be in this area. yeah, but that's a problem of just having too many units in the game. You can't have them all somewhat viable when they require tons of different techs and extra investments. If that's the case players will eventually just say fuck it make more of the same. Remember when reapers required a techlab? Hellbats required transformation servos? Terran Starport units that require a techlab, or even more, a fusion core? Do you think we would see immortals if they required an extra tech structure and Protoss wouldn't get 3 units of the robo immidiatly? Same for Protoss stargate tech, how many oracles, phoenixes or void rays would we see if any of these units would require an extra tech building? In-accessibility and big passive investments for units is the main reason they are not being used in a game that is mainly played around cookie-cutter timings. I think the right call in all of those situations is plainly to adjust the costs/stats/build times of the units, but not introduce tons of extra barriers. (or remove units, but that's not really an option anymore) | ||
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lohdon
170 Posts
On December 13 2015 01:49 Big J wrote: yeah, but that's a problem of just having too many units in the game. You can't have them all somewhat viable when they require tons of different techs and extra investments. If that's the case players will eventually just say fuck it make more of the same. Remember when reapers required a techlab? Hellbats required transformation servos? Terran Starport units that require a techlab, or even more, a fusion core? Do you think we would see immortals if they required an extra tech structure and Protoss wouldn't get 3 units of the robo immidiatly? Same for Protoss stargate tech, how many oracles, phoenixes or void rays would we see if any of these units would require an extra tech building? In-accessibility and big passive investments for units is the main reason they are not being used in a game that is mainly played around cookie-cutter timings. I think the right call in all of those situations is plainly to adjust the costs/stats/build times of the units, but not introduce tons of extra barriers. (or remove units, but that's not really an option anymore) In this case however you can hardly argue that adding another small requirement to be able to build ravagers will make it unusable. Changing stats or cost/buildtime will nerf it throughout the game which at this point may not be needed. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On December 13 2015 08:58 Beelzebub1 wrote: Why? The ravager all in thing only works against terrible people who can't infer that a roach warren on two base is a ravager all in coming for you, seriously even at a petty high diamond/low masters level unless you have some super crispy ass timings the Terran has more then enough time to prepare. regardless of the strength of ravager allins specifically, as a broad design principle i think it's great for people to be able to positively impact their game with more scouting. scouting properly takes a lot of awareness, and the rewards should be high | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 12 2015 07:59 crazedrat wrote: PvZ Ravagers are not much of an issue, pylon overcharge makes sure of that. TvZ they're an issue if you want to open fast CC, mainly if you follow up with 2 or more barracks. Otherwise not a big problem there either. LOL okay they outrange Pylon Overcharge handily and their ability kills them pretty fast + you can't miss. | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
If Z has 2 bases and mining off two extractor by 30ish supply, then it's a ravager push. That's it, don't go out complaining about stuff you don't understand. You can read the game, it's just not that simple (ofc not). As for a longer Lurker timing, really? I mean they take forever to morph, the den itself and the hydras into lurker seem like a long morph. Ravager morph is ridiculously fast I'll give you that. Lurkers are immensely powerful, but they take a long time to get to. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
It seems like its not nearly the problem that most people have with Zerg (nydus/ultra/parasitic bomb) and to change something like a Ravager den instead of fixing actual problems just seems silly to me | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2382 Posts
On December 13 2015 09:24 brickrd wrote: regardless of the strength of ravager allins specifically, as a broad design principle i think it's great for people to be able to positively impact their game with more scouting. scouting properly takes a lot of awareness, and the rewards should be high yea you can just scout the gases like zerg has to do when playing terran | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 12 2015 13:34 Cyro wrote: It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building) If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition Tech lab rax and reactor factory. You often have advanced warning and short term knowledge of what the terran can actually build at the times where limited production facilities matter most By that logic same with Ravagers! You scout a roach warren and BAM you know that Ravagers can be made! | ||
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
1)I don't see early ravager pushes as a problem. Of course you can die to them, but you also die to any cheese if you don't prepare. The issue is ravagers as part of the roach/ravager or roach/ravager/hydra composition. Forcing a ravager den doesn't solve this. 2)Like others said in here, if you scout a rw, you can almost assume a roach based composition. It's really rare these days to do the safety roach build without ravagers. Keep in mind any early rw seriously hurts zerg eco. Bottom line: you can't blindly mass helions. You gotta look for the rw with reaper or just blindly counter roach based play. | ||
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