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Blizzard why do you want it make so hard to scout ravagers coming?
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nQZQ7sl.png)
The problem with Ravagers is not necessarily ravagers but that it forces out a response which leaves them vulnerable to other styles. Zerg has multiple openers and the gas timings are identical for several builds. For example a nydus allin, roach burrow, or roach heavy upgrades has similar gas timings as that of a ling ravager push. That being said often the pushes come and the opponent has no idea its going to be that until eggs pop and the units are pushing across the map. So when you see that gases you always prepare for ravagers and are often beaten in other ways. At Dreamhack, the killer often was not the ravagers, but the other builds which countered the response Terran players were doing for the ravagers. Blizzard is suggesting that ravagers and lurkers take longer to morph, but this still doesn't allow any premptive scouting. So the suggestion is to allow for scouting of ravagers by allowing players to morph a ravager den.
Edit:This idea was originally seen in comments on TL by starslayer and I didn't find it for the original post to properly give credit.
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PvZ Ravagers are not much of an issue, pylon overcharge makes sure of that. TvZ they're an issue if you want to open fast CC, mainly if you follow up with 2 or more barracks. Otherwise not a big problem there either.
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i'm a zerg player and i think this is fine and makes sense
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I think this is a good idea.
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This totally makes sense actually.
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I'm all for it as long as they don't call it ravager den
zerg has too many dens already
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Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.
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Ive been suggesting this in threads for a while hope they do it.
Edit I have been suggesting this idea not because of scout, but because making zerg need to make a "ravager den" will (in theory) delay ravagers enough for the other races to get enough units to deal with the silly pushes zerg can do atm.
scout isnt the problem to me its how fast they hit.
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On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:
Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against.
DEAL! Let's do this 
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Oh, roaches....OH MY GOD RAVAGER WHERE DO THEY COME FROM!? Are you serious?
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Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix, or with some certain situations with Terran and there production.
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No. My arguments are simple.
a) Ravagers need a ton of gas, 100 each. That is four times (4) more gas than a roach. Learn how to scout for gas count (pro tip: many early gasses and late lair tech = alert). If you don't know how to do that, then that is your problem not Blizzards.
b) Just fucking play safer.
ps. If you don't agree, then pls submit a picture of the sentry den, the marauder den, oracle den and the hellbat den - so that zergs can scout for these units also. Thx
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On December 12 2015 09:55 LoveTool wrote:
No. My arguments are simple.
a) Ravagers need a ton of gas, 100 each. That is four times (4) more gas than a roach. Learn how to scout for gas count (pro tip: many early gasses and late lair tech = alert). If you don't know how to do that, then that is your problem not Blizzards.
b) Just fucking play safer.
Those are two excellent arguments for why Twilight Council should unlock DTs.
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On December 12 2015 09:19 GGzerG wrote:
Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix, or with some certain situations with Terran and there production.
Again I want to emphasize the main point. Ravagers force out a response so the players are dying to other things. I'm not really thinking its the same because of the larvae mechanic and you are rewarded by finding the the starport, but not rewarded for scouting the lair/roach warren. I feel like you can do a similar response to oracles (5 queens 2 spores) and phoenix where you cannot do the same response for double upgrades or a spire, or a burrow roach timing off a third. For the amount of response required and the style it forces you to play, and you can lose in other ways.
As an example, one option would be hyperflight banshees as an opener against ravagers, but if you go banshees and they are faking towards mutas you scan the main and are denied scouting into the natural and mutas come out. The only commitment they did to it was 3 roaches and a roach warren, which is about one less muta so you get 9 at your base instead of 10 which can still be significant damage and shut down banshees allowing unrecoverable creep spread and map control.
My post history has mostly been about tournaments statistics and changes in the meta and I prefer mostly to stay away from game adjusting ideas. I know people always tend to shoot down statistics even before they become standard as has happened to nearly every one of my posts so I kind of expected this, but it is true. In the small sample size i have, Terran in general is losing a lot to zerg before getting up to 22 up grades and a lot of its comes from preparing for one build and being crushed by another even after scanning the opponent. Now the statistics are saying Terran is doing fairly well in the mid-late game and late game. Being less constrained from good scouting while playing against zerg deserves at least a try.
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Not sure if there's much point behind this. If you scout roaches or a roach warren its almost a guarantee that ravagers are coming.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
On December 12 2015 08:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 08:44 Big J wrote:
Suggestion: Adept Den and Sentry Den to allow for scouting in TvP and ZvP. Reasoning: Protoss has been winning a lot with low tier gateway timings throughout all of SC2, this would allow people to know which Gateway units to prepare against. DEAL! Let's do this
It's already in the game. It's one building called a Cybernetics Core! It's just built immediately every game because the options needed to live are gated behind it (if you look at zerg for example, queen is on the spawning pool while msc is on the higher tech building)
Umm... There is a lot of similar situations like not knowing if Protoss is making Oracles or Pheonix
If you gain vision of the stargate then you can see which unit is in production, that's often used especially on the first 2 units and to help keep track of later game army composition
the marauder den and the hellbat den
Tech lab rax and reactor factory. You often have advanced warning and short term knowledge of what the terran can actually build at the times where limited production facilities matter most
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It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
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On December 12 2015 09:55 LoveTool wrote:
ps. If you don't agree, then pls submit a picture of the sentry den, the marauder den, oracle den and the hellbat den - so that zergs can scout for these units also. Thx
Also known as tech lab and armory
On December 12 2015 14:02 GGzerG wrote:
It's a bad idea, and yes as the above poster stated, if you scout a Roach warren you should assume Ravagers regardless, it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
Thats an awful example tho, DTs come from their own building, it would be more like DTs coming from Twilight
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
it is like a Protoss going for a Dark Shrine and not making DT's.... -_-
Like a protoss with a twilight not building DT's - much more likely to happen but not guaranteed at all.
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On a practical design point of view I think that totally makes sense and is a great thought.
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EPT
