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Dreamhack Rebalance?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KQ2C5k6.jpg) http://i.imgur.com/KQ2C5k6
Dreamhack is coming soon. One of the first tournaments where money and results matter. I've talked to several people about balance at this point and have heard several opinions. I have three questions I pose.
My own thoughts on the current state of the game going into Dreamhack.
+ Show Spoiler +
I think Dreamhack will be a zerg dominated tournament. In my own personal opinion this is more do to the map pool than the balance. The problem is that many of the maps favor the style that is most abusive for zerg. Primarily, high drones counts, many bases and map control. For example, I don't see protosses getting many wins vs zerg on Lerilak or Prion terraces. Thus, there are two autobans already. I would like to see the 4th base for zergs on prion terraces be regular minerals, and i would like to see lerilak crest have a bit smaller choke into one of the third bases. I would also like to see more paths opened up on Dusk towers. Ruins of seras i think is hard vs zerg due to its size and the map pool favors zerg so much at the moment.
As far as unit rebalance, its hard for me to ask for something specific with this map pool. At this time personally, i would only like to see a change on ravagers requiring lair. The most common abusive things I hear are parasitic bomb from vipers, lack of late game for terran, Oracle stasis being too robust after the harass, Roach-ravager pushes, and liberator bio tank pushes. The lurkers themselves i think are ok, but maybe they still come out a bit fast given the effectiveness of the ravagers and the ease of using them in conjunction with mutas. Ravagers I feel can dictate the game a bit, and came make midgame scouting hard since you have to defend so much against it. Protoss disruptors seem to have huge damage coming from them, maybe this is a problem. Some people want to see more colossus/carrier play. I just don't think its good to make it return so early in lotv before more tournaments can use the new strategies and test them.
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Poll: Should LOTV be rebalanced in any way before Dreamhack?Yes, unit stats should be rebalanced. (13) 9% Yes, maps should be changed or need work. (22) 15% Yes, both unit stats should change and maps need some work. (24) 17% No, leave everything as it is. (86) 59% 145 total votes Your vote: Should LOTV be rebalanced in any way before Dreamhack? (Vote): Yes, unit stats should be rebalanced.
(Vote): Yes, maps should be changed or need work.
(Vote): Yes, both unit stats should change and maps need some work.
(Vote): No, leave everything as it is.
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Here's a link in case you don't remember the map names.
Link:1v1 Ladder Maps on liquipedia
Poll: What is the biggest map design issue to address for Dreamhack?None, the maps are just fine (25) 36% Prion Terraces, 3rd and 4th bases have gold minerals or other issue (19) 27% Lerilak Crest, to much area to defend around either third base or other issue (17) 24% Ulrena, to small of a path between the opponents or other issue (4) 6% Central Protocol, too much space between bases or other issue (4) 6% Orbital Shipyard, To large of an area in front of the 4th base or other issue (1) 1% Dusk Towers, only one attack path or other issue (0) 0% Ruins of Seras, to open of a large map or other issue (0) 0% 70 total votes Your vote: What is the biggest map design issue to address for Dreamhack? (Vote): Dusk Towers, only one attack path or other issue
(Vote): Orbital Shipyard, To large of an area in front of the 4th base or other issue
(Vote): Prion Terraces, 3rd and 4th bases have gold minerals or other issue
(Vote): Ulrena, to small of a path between the opponents or other issue
(Vote): Central Protocol, too much space between bases or other issue
(Vote): Lerilak Crest, to much area to defend around either third base or other issue
(Vote): Ruins of Seras, to open of a large map or other issue
(Vote): None, the maps are just fine
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Poll: What is the unit which stats change is needed before Dreamhack?Adepts (5) 3% Sentries (0) 0% Disruptors (7) 4% Carriers (3) 2% Pylons/Overcharge (13) 8% Oracles (0) 0% Other Protoss Unit (1) 1% Marauders (0) 0% Ghosts (0) 0% Liberators (39) 24% Cyclones (6) 4% Tanks / Tank drops (5) 3% Widow Mines (2) 1% Other Terran Units (2) 1% Roaches (0) 0% Ravagers (33) 21% Lurkers (6) 4% Vipers (5) 3% Ultralisks (29) 18% Mutalisks (1) 1% Other Zerg Unit (3) 2% 160 total votes Your vote: What is the unit which stats change is needed before Dreamhack? (Vote): Adepts
(Vote): Sentries
(Vote): Disruptors
(Vote): Carriers
(Vote): Pylons/Overcharge
(Vote): Oracles
(Vote): Other Protoss Unit
(Vote): Marauders
(Vote): Ghosts
(Vote): Liberators
(Vote): Cyclones
(Vote): Tanks / Tank drops
(Vote): Widow Mines
(Vote): Other Terran Units
(Vote): Roaches
(Vote): Ravagers
(Vote): Lurkers
(Vote): Vipers
(Vote): Ultralisks
(Vote): Mutalisks
(Vote): Other Zerg Unit
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Wasn't Lerilak Crest a terrible 2v2 map back from WoL? Well it's even more terrible in 1v1, you don't need to look at it twice to know that it's just bad, even if it was balanced it's bad, but it's not balanced so it's something much worse.
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It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful.
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i think the ravager should be like the lurker, you can keep it hatch tech but make zerg have to morph a ravager den to delay then enough so the opponent can handle them, but not so late as lair since there a glass cannon roach.
then maybe do something about the maps. I do agree they are helping zerg alot but if you just toned down the ravager I think it would be ok.
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Interesting, I've heard many notable pros, such as huk, puckk, state talk about the huge problem the golds present on Prion Terraces, but then the poll votes for Lerilak Crest. I have heard some pros say that the races feel balanced roughly and that its mostly a map issue. Other pros say zerg and terran is too strong. I have not heard any complaints about protoss balance. Some terrans were saying something about the single path on dusk towers is really hard vs zerg with lurkers.
Also, @starslayer, I do like your idea of having a roach warren upgrade to make ravagers much like is done with the hydra den to a lurker den. My main concern is having something practical that could be done over the weekend. I think in the long run your solution is better.
I'll make the units poll public after a bit longer due to low voting numbers early, I want a bit more time to settle in what people think.
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On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful.
You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter?
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Protoss players will veto prion terraces that's all.
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I think the most obvious answer not included in the poll of units for adjusting: nydus worm? I mean, I guess it's not technically a "unit," but it certainly feels like the most glaring potential issue right now
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I think it's best to leave it as it is right now instead of forcing the players to relearn stuff right before the first big tournament. And then adjust as necessary after Dreamhack.
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I think it tool Zergs almost 6 months to work out Widow Mines after HOTs release They nerfed them, then the nerf was eventually reversed after it was released Window Mines were almost useless..
I would give it 6 months at least before any changes to units.This is the last expansion so whats the rush?
Maps can be tweaked to adjust balance just like in Broodwar.
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Right now, we don't have enough data to make any kind of "informed decision". Any attempt at "rebalancing" now would be a shot in the dark. There are things that look strong right now, but I doubt anyone is able to say with 100% certainty that anything is broken.
However, this Dreamhack will provide us with a big number of games, and this will help us get a clearer picture. IMHO, no balance change should occur for a couple months. If by end of January/February, zergs still dominate all competition (Olimoleague, DHack, GPL, Shoutcraft, HomeStoryCup, and all the other tournaments that will have happened until then), then a balance action should be carefully considered.
We have to give more time to the pros to figure stuff out. After all, they have a lot of work, they have to:
- Update their scouting timings/patterns and knowing what/when to look for
- Update their builds and developp new ones (cheeses, timing attacks, macro builds)
- Knowing how to "play things out" (do I put constant pressure and parade push with that new unit comp ? do I wait for an upgrade to finish and take a more timing oriented approach ? do I play it defensive with only small harrass ? etc)
- Learning the ideal reactions to all these new builds/attacks (do I add cannons/bunkers ? do I counter drop to force them back ? do I cancel upgrades to churn out more units ? etc)
- Mastering the new micro opportunities (tank drop, ravager shots, disruptor, etc)
- ...
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On November 20 2015 18:05 LoneYoShi wrote:
Right now, we don't have enough data to make any kind of "informed decision". Any attempt at "rebalancing" now would be a shot in the dark. There are things that look strong right now, but I doubt anyone is able to say with 100% certainty that anything is broken.
However, this Dreamhack will provide us with a big number of games, and this will help us get a clearer picture. IMHO, no balance change should occur for a couple months. If by end of January/February, zergs still dominate all competition (Olimoleague, DHack, GPL, Shoutcraft, HomeStoryCup, and all the other tournaments that will have happened until then), then a balance action should be carefully considered.
We have to give more time to the pros to figure stuff out. After all, they have a lot of work, they have to:
- Update their scouting timings/patterns and knowing what/when to look for
- Update their builds and developp new ones (cheeses, timing attacks, macro builds)
- Knowing how to "play things out" (do I put constant pressure and parade push with that new unit comp ? do I wait for an upgrade to finish and take a more timing oriented approach ? do I play it defensive with only small harrass ? etc)
- Learning the ideal reactions to all these new builds/attacks (do I add cannons/bunkers ? do I counter drop to force them back ? do I cancel upgrades to churn out more units ? etc)
- Mastering the new micro opportunities (tank drop, ravager shots, disruptor, etc)
- ...
I kind of disagree with your idea of it being a shot in the dark. Its not just 1-2 players saying this is a problem. Given how much pros talk about zerg being strong and have 3 maps that are hard to beat zerg on/not enough vetoes. There are three problems here.
- Can 1 person sit and gain an advantage just by never being aggressive or defensive?
- Is there almost risk to being punished for being aggressive?
- Is the map pool representative about the types of games blizzard is thinking of balancing around?
I do think there is room for improvement in the map pool by quite a bit and should be something discussed before Dreamhack. There is a lot of money here, and small tweeks I think could help. I wonder if 6 gold bases in the middle of the map/Large open areas/Very large maps is representative of the balance the game is being designed around.
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The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options!
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There is not enough time to make changes and see if they were good or bad, let's see how it plays out. The first few tournaments will be rough but at least I think they will move quickly based on tournament results.
Also, don't forget that when Blizzard try to balance it is not pretty.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Stop whine about ultralisks. Ghosts can annihilate them pretty easily.
Ravagers must be armored. Thats all. Let the meta develop itself.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 21 2015 02:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options!
Just split units and bomb becomes useless
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On November 20 2015 11:06 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful. You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter?
Not when it comes to making claims about the balance of a [~1 month old] game.
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On November 21 2015 02:57 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2015 02:35 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The only thing I see it really needs a fix is parasitic bomb. The rest...please give some months to the pro player explore all options! Just split units and bomb becomes useless
please show me a vod/replay of a terran beating mass BL/corruptor/viper
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 21 2015 03:07 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2015 11:06 ejozl wrote:On November 20 2015 09:59 ZAiNs wrote:
It's not like the results of a tournament with 4 Koreans matter very much any ways. When Proleague starts and/or we get Kespa Cup in December then the results will be meaningful. You don't think a tournament with 50.000$ on the line matter? Not when it comes to making claims about the balance of a [~1 month old] game.
The problem is that there is not enough competition to balance it out before the important stuff starts. Once some players are out from GSL/SSL/WCS it will be hard to get back just because Blizzard cannot balance the game properly and does not want to delay the release. I really do not want to see another bad season of GSL(and seasons with 5 Protoss in RO32 or 3 Terrans in RO32 were bad from spectators side)
Edit: ALso once you are out you have a loooong time of nothingness which is bad too.
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EPT
